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Is Sauber really that bad?
Yes, it's the worst car in the grid 81%  81%  [ 21 ]
No, they would be fighting frequently for points with better drivers 19%  19%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 26
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:45 pm 
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Looking at their last result in Bahrein, with Pascal almost reaching the points after a long absence, all the media elogiates Pascal's performance. This, along the very nice display of Giovanazzi in Melbourne, I keep thinking that neither Giovanazzi or Pascal are as good as many think, but in fact the Sauber is much better than we think but Ericsson is a very weak driver, and they can be frequenty fighting for points if they had better drivers.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:47 pm 
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I suspect they're losing out also due to them having the 2016 Ferrari engine and not the 2017 model, you only have to look at how more competitive Ferrari are to see that there has to be a difference in performance between the two engines.

Agree though its possible that Wehrlein isn't as great as his hype (there's a reason Merc didn't pick him) he could easily have been an effective Number 2 at Merc you would think in the old Ferrari mould (Irvine/Barrichello)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Deep_blue wrote:
Looking at their last result in Bahrein, with Pascal almost reaching the points after a long absence, all the media elogiates Pascal's performance. This, along the very nice display of Giovanazzi in Melbourne, I keep thinking that neither Giovanazzi or Pascal are as good as many think, but in fact the Sauber is much better than we think but Ericsson is a very weak driver, and they can be frequenty fighting for points if they had better drivers.


Why don't you rate Pascal?.

It's hard to judge the chassis at this point but they're held back a bit right now because they've got last years Ferrari PU.

They'll be held back a lot when Renault get their upgrades in Spain and Honda sort their's out eventually.

To be honest I'd put them fighting for points more down to drivers in quicker cars making a mess of it like Palmer.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:53 pm 
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I'm not that sure about the 2016 engine, I tought there was new rule for 2017 which obligates engine providers to supply only latest spec engines to all of their customer teams, but I have no precise information about


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:53 pm 
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I think that since Peter stepped back, the boardroom mentality is hurting them. They can not survive without money, but it seems to be more important than racing. Williams did start to go this way a few years back, but caught themselves when Clare found her feet.


Pretty much the same path Mclaren are now heading down too


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:56 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Deep_blue wrote:
Looking at their last result in Bahrein, with Pascal almost reaching the points after a long absence, all the media elogiates Pascal's performance. This, along the very nice display of Giovanazzi in Melbourne, I keep thinking that neither Giovanazzi or Pascal are as good as many think, but in fact the Sauber is much better than we think but Ericsson is a very weak driver, and they can be frequenty fighting for points if they had better drivers.


Why don't you rate Pascal?.

It's hard to judge the chassis at this point but they're held back a bit right now because they've got last years Ferrari PU.

They'll be held back a lot when Renault get their upgrades in Spain and Honda sort their's out eventually.

To be honest I'd put them fighting for points more down to drivers in quicker cars making a mess of it like Palmer.


I don't think Pascal is a bad driver, but I don't rate him that high, neither the teams, since both Force India and Mercedes went for different options. IMO he was overshadowed by Occon who is less experienced, and I genuinely think that his great performance in Bahrein was in an important part because the Sauber is massively underrated


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Deep_blue wrote:
I'm not that sure about the 2016 engine, I tought there was new rule for 2017 which obligates engine providers to supply only latest spec engines to all of their customer teams, but I have no precise information about


They've 100% got a 2016 PU. They chose to go that route because it's cheaper and they thought it would be more reliable.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Deep_blue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Deep_blue wrote:
Looking at their last result in Bahrein, with Pascal almost reaching the points after a long absence, all the media elogiates Pascal's performance. This, along the very nice display of Giovanazzi in Melbourne, I keep thinking that neither Giovanazzi or Pascal are as good as many think, but in fact the Sauber is much better than we think but Ericsson is a very weak driver, and they can be frequenty fighting for points if they had better drivers.


Why don't you rate Pascal?.

It's hard to judge the chassis at this point but they're held back a bit right now because they've got last years Ferrari PU.

They'll be held back a lot when Renault get their upgrades in Spain and Honda sort their's out eventually.

To be honest I'd put them fighting for points more down to drivers in quicker cars making a mess of it like Palmer.


I don't think Pascal is a bad driver, but I don't rate him that high, neither the teams, since both Force India and Mercedes went for different options. IMO he was overshadowed by Occon who is less experienced, and I genuinely think that his great performance in Bahrein was in an important part because the Sauber is massively underrated


I think Pascal was overlooked for both seats for off-track reasons rather than on-track. He's actually been pretty impressive for a while now on-track.

Apart from RoC. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Sauber and Mclaren are the worst cars overall. It's close enough that a good driver can drag them into the back end of the midfield.

Ericcson isn't that weak a driver either - He was better than Nasr last year.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:28 pm 
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Yes, sauber is that bad.
Pascal was phenomenal last year. The way he dragged the car in Q2 towards the end was unreal.
Cant fault his driving skills last year. He was unlucky to suffer in races at start but thats the life in lower cars.

Ocon too did well, but lets be real. The reason Ocon was signed by Force India was money. Pascal had a seat at Manor and sadly they folded.
Him having to be at Sauber this year has nothing to do with his abilities but the cruel fate.

Mercedes played safe with Bottas, cant really fault them for not taking a risk with driver with just 1 season under his belt in back of the grid car, nothing more. So that means Pascal was left with no choice but to take the only available seat.

And Sauber is the least detailed car on the grid running one year old engine which wont see any major development throughout the season. So the result they got yesterday was great one.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Sauber is worst. They are modern day Osella.

Pascal is actually phenomenal driver in my book. Look how well he defended against both STR and Renault yesterday, with obviously slower car. How did he even came in front of them?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Sauber really is that bad. Some of it's down to the engine, but taking the car as a total package I think it's clear and away the worst car on the grid. Without Manor, there's no team worse funded and less competent than Sauber. Harsh, I know - but true.

The McLaren-Honda is probably closer to Sauber than it looks, however, especially in the hands of Alonso.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:08 pm 
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I don't rate Ericsson as low as many others do. I personally think his race in Mexico last year was stronger than Wherlein's performance in Austria. Got knocked out on the 1st lap involving Gutierrez and Wherlien, neither of which were to blame. Wherlein unfortunately had to retire but he was the only car to retire that race. Then Ericsson had to do a slow lap right down at the back as his car was damaged. Somehow, after he pitted, Ericsson then managed 69 laps with a damaged car and he finished 11th with pretty much no cars retiring to help him there. He also managed to get through to Q2 in qualifying too. Really solid weekend. Wherlein had a good weekend in Austria too. His qualifying performance was very good indeed. I think he was 12th. But he made a rookie error at the start and parked on the wrong grid slot which was a silly mistake. But he got away with it as he reversed back in time. He did have a good race but quite a lot of faster cars retired. On the last lap, he was 11th with Perez over 20 seconds ahead in 10th. Then Perez's brakes failed. That 10th place finish was very lucky! If there were no retirements that race, He would have been 13th or lower. The reason why I think Ericsson's race weekend in Mexico was more impressive.

They both have had good races and poor races last year. Wherlein cost himself the 1st 2 races of this season by his ROC crash so that wasn't a great start. But yes, his first race was very good. Giovinazzi got far too much hype in my view. He had a decent qualifying and 1st race, but one race was too soon to instantly decide he was far better than Ericsson. Ericsson got knocked out that race and then later retired so we couldn't see how strong he would have been against Giovinazzi. Then in the next race, Giovinazzi crashed in qualifying and crashed in the race. That weekend was clearly one where Ericsson was better. This race in Bahrain, Wherlein did certainly do a better job but I am also surprised by the amount of people that are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Give it until part way through the season. They have only had one race together in the same team so far and Ericsson didn't even manage to finish due to a problem. I actually think they will be pretty evenly matched. Ericsson admittedly was really bad in 2014 and early on in 2015. But later on that season and especially last year, he was clearly better than Nazr overall.

I don't think either of them are that good. I just don't rate Wherlein as high as others do and I don't rate Ericsson as low. But I feel as Ericsson has been with the team for a while, he will have an advantage which will help him some of the time. And from what I've read in some places, Wherlein can sometimes be tricky to get along with. Similar to Nasr in a way. There were quite a lot of occasions last year where both of them refused to follow team orders. This may well have been another reason why Mercedes didn't pick Wherlein. At leased Bottas has clearly been obeying his team orders.

About the car this year, I don't know what position it is in. Either people need to admit Ericsson is at leased a decent qualifier so far or the car is stronger than we all predicted. Ericsson managed to get through to Q2 in both of the 1st 2 races and Wherlein managed to get high up in Q2 in this last race. What is more likely then? Good car or a stronger pair of drivers than we think?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:27 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't rate Ericsson as low as many others do. I personally think his race in Mexico last year was stronger than Wherlein's performance in Austria. Got knocked out on the 1st lap involving Gutierrez and Wherlien, neither of which were to blame. Wherlein unfortunately had to retire but he was the only car to retire that race. Then Ericsson had to do a slow lap right down at the back as his car was damaged. Somehow, after he pitted, Ericsson then managed 69 laps with a damaged car and he finished 11th with pretty much no cars retiring to help him there. He also managed to get through to Q2 in qualifying too. Really solid weekend. Wherlein had a good weekend in Austria too. His qualifying performance was very good indeed. I think he was 12th. But he made a rookie error at the start and parked on the wrong grid slot which was a silly mistake. But he got away with it as he reversed back in time. He did have a good race but quite a lot of faster cars retired. On the last lap, he was 11th with Perez over 20 seconds ahead in 10th. Then Perez's brakes failed. That 10th place finish was very lucky! If there were no retirements that race, He would have been 13th or lower. The reason why I think Ericsson's race weekend in Mexico was more impressive.

They both have had good races and poor races last year. Wherlein cost himself the 1st 2 races of this season by his ROC crash so that wasn't a great start. But yes, his first race was very good. Giovinazzi got far too much hype in my view. He had a decent qualifying and 1st race, but one race was too soon to instantly decide he was far better than Ericsson. Ericsson got knocked out that race and then later retired so we couldn't see how strong he would have been against Giovinazzi. Then in the next race, Giovinazzi crashed in qualifying and crashed in the race. That weekend was clearly one where Ericsson was better. This race in Bahrain, Wherlein did certainly do a better job but I am also surprised by the amount of people that are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Give it until part way through the season. They have only had one race together in the same team so far and Ericsson didn't even manage to finish due to a problem. I actually think they will be pretty evenly matched. Ericsson admittedly was really bad in 2014 and early on in 2015. But later on that season and especially last year, he was clearly better than Nazr overall.

I don't think either of them are that good. I just don't rate Wherlein as high as others do and I don't rate Ericsson as low. But I feel as Ericsson has been with the team for a while, he will have an advantage which will help him some of the time. And from what I've read in some places, Wherlein can sometimes be tricky to get along with. Similar to Nasr in a way. There were quite a lot of occasions last year where both of them refused to follow team orders. This may well have been another reason why Mercedes didn't pick Wherlein. At leased Bottas has clearly been obeying his team orders.

About the car this year, I don't know what position it is in. Either people need to admit Ericsson is at leased a decent qualifier so far or the car is stronger than we all predicted. Ericsson managed to get through to Q2 in both of the 1st 2 races and Wherlein managed to get high up in Q2 in this last race. What is more likely then? Good car or a stronger pair of drivers than we think?


Yeah I agree about Ericsson, but does anyone know why he was so off the pace in Bahrain? Wherlein was just in another planet in that car and it wasn't like this at all in Australia. Wherlein had a really good race weekend and I was actually impressed how he didn't seem to miss a beat after his absence.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:49 am 
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kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't rate Ericsson as low as many others do. I personally think his race in Mexico last year was stronger than Wherlein's performance in Austria. Got knocked out on the 1st lap involving Gutierrez and Wherlien, neither of which were to blame. Wherlein unfortunately had to retire but he was the only car to retire that race. Then Ericsson had to do a slow lap right down at the back as his car was damaged. Somehow, after he pitted, Ericsson then managed 69 laps with a damaged car and he finished 11th with pretty much no cars retiring to help him there. He also managed to get through to Q2 in qualifying too. Really solid weekend. Wherlein had a good weekend in Austria too. His qualifying performance was very good indeed. I think he was 12th. But he made a rookie error at the start and parked on the wrong grid slot which was a silly mistake. But he got away with it as he reversed back in time. He did have a good race but quite a lot of faster cars retired. On the last lap, he was 11th with Perez over 20 seconds ahead in 10th. Then Perez's brakes failed. That 10th place finish was very lucky! If there were no retirements that race, He would have been 13th or lower. The reason why I think Ericsson's race weekend in Mexico was more impressive.

They both have had good races and poor races last year. Wherlein cost himself the 1st 2 races of this season by his ROC crash so that wasn't a great start. But yes, his first race was very good. Giovinazzi got far too much hype in my view. He had a decent qualifying and 1st race, but one race was too soon to instantly decide he was far better than Ericsson. Ericsson got knocked out that race and then later retired so we couldn't see how strong he would have been against Giovinazzi. Then in the next race, Giovinazzi crashed in qualifying and crashed in the race. That weekend was clearly one where Ericsson was better. This race in Bahrain, Wherlein did certainly do a better job but I am also surprised by the amount of people that are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Give it until part way through the season. They have only had one race together in the same team so far and Ericsson didn't even manage to finish due to a problem. I actually think they will be pretty evenly matched. Ericsson admittedly was really bad in 2014 and early on in 2015. But later on that season and especially last year, he was clearly better than Nazr overall.

I don't think either of them are that good. I just don't rate Wherlein as high as others do and I don't rate Ericsson as low. But I feel as Ericsson has been with the team for a while, he will have an advantage which will help him some of the time. And from what I've read in some places, Wherlein can sometimes be tricky to get along with. Similar to Nasr in a way. There were quite a lot of occasions last year where both of them refused to follow team orders. This may well have been another reason why Mercedes didn't pick Wherlein. At leased Bottas has clearly been obeying his team orders.

About the car this year, I don't know what position it is in. Either people need to admit Ericsson is at leased a decent qualifier so far or the car is stronger than we all predicted. Ericsson managed to get through to Q2 in both of the 1st 2 races and Wherlein managed to get high up in Q2 in this last race. What is more likely then? Good car or a stronger pair of drivers than we think?


Yeah I agree about Ericsson, but does anyone know why he was so off the pace in Bahrain? Wherlein was just in another planet in that car and it wasn't like this at all in Australia. Wherlein had a really good race weekend and I was actually impressed how he didn't seem to miss a beat after his absence.

I don't actually think his race pace was that bad. Admittedly, that qualifying was indeed poor. I saw someone on F1 fanatic say that Wherlein gained 19 seconds over Ericsson due to the safety car and the team not pitting Ericsson during that period. And then they said that Ericsson retired when he was only 11 seconds behind. So if this is true, at this point Ericsson was clearly faster and Wherlien was a little lucky. If there had been no safety car and Ericsson didn't retire, I'm certain they'll have been a fair bit closer.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:33 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Yes, sauber is that bad.
Pascal was phenomenal last year. The way he dragged the car in Q2 towards the end was unreal.
Cant fault his driving skills last year. He was unlucky to suffer in races at start but thats the life in lower cars.

Ocon too did well, but lets be real. The reason Ocon was signed by Force India was money. Pascal had a seat at Manor and sadly they folded.
Him having to be at Sauber this year has nothing to do with his abilities but the cruel fate.

Mercedes played safe with Bottas, cant really fault them for not taking a risk with driver with just 1 season under his belt in back of the grid car, nothing more. So that means Pascal was left with no choice but to take the only available seat.

And Sauber is the least detailed car on the grid running one year old engine which wont see any major development throughout the season. So the result they got yesterday was great one.


Guess money even bought his 3 10th place finishes.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:36 am 
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Yeah bit weird to chalk Ocon's signing up to money. Well, maybe in the sense that Mercedes offered a discount to FI for their power units, but other than that Ocon has been one of the brighter prospects in the feeder series over the past few years and him being in F1 in a decent team is fully justified.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:21 pm 
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2016 Ferrari engine, not much more to add really. Doomed from the beginning.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:05 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't rate Ericsson as low as many others do. I personally think his race in Mexico last year was stronger than Wherlein's performance in Austria. Got knocked out on the 1st lap involving Gutierrez and Wherlien, neither of which were to blame. Wherlein unfortunately had to retire but he was the only car to retire that race. Then Ericsson had to do a slow lap right down at the back as his car was damaged. Somehow, after he pitted, Ericsson then managed 69 laps with a damaged car and he finished 11th with pretty much no cars retiring to help him there. He also managed to get through to Q2 in qualifying too. Really solid weekend. Wherlein had a good weekend in Austria too. His qualifying performance was very good indeed. I think he was 12th. But he made a rookie error at the start and parked on the wrong grid slot which was a silly mistake. But he got away with it as he reversed back in time. He did have a good race but quite a lot of faster cars retired. On the last lap, he was 11th with Perez over 20 seconds ahead in 10th. Then Perez's brakes failed. That 10th place finish was very lucky! If there were no retirements that race, He would have been 13th or lower. The reason why I think Ericsson's race weekend in Mexico was more impressive.

They both have had good races and poor races last year. Wherlein cost himself the 1st 2 races of this season by his ROC crash so that wasn't a great start. But yes, his first race was very good. Giovinazzi got far too much hype in my view. He had a decent qualifying and 1st race, but one race was too soon to instantly decide he was far better than Ericsson. Ericsson got knocked out that race and then later retired so we couldn't see how strong he would have been against Giovinazzi. Then in the next race, Giovinazzi crashed in qualifying and crashed in the race. That weekend was clearly one where Ericsson was better. This race in Bahrain, Wherlein did certainly do a better job but I am also surprised by the amount of people that are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Give it until part way through the season. They have only had one race together in the same team so far and Ericsson didn't even manage to finish due to a problem. I actually think they will be pretty evenly matched. Ericsson admittedly was really bad in 2014 and early on in 2015. But later on that season and especially last year, he was clearly better than Nazr overall.

I don't think either of them are that good. I just don't rate Wherlein as high as others do and I don't rate Ericsson as low. But I feel as Ericsson has been with the team for a while, he will have an advantage which will help him some of the time. And from what I've read in some places, Wherlein can sometimes be tricky to get along with. Similar to Nasr in a way. There were quite a lot of occasions last year where both of them refused to follow team orders. This may well have been another reason why Mercedes didn't pick Wherlein. At leased Bottas has clearly been obeying his team orders.

About the car this year, I don't know what position it is in. Either people need to admit Ericsson is at leased a decent qualifier so far or the car is stronger than we all predicted. Ericsson managed to get through to Q2 in both of the 1st 2 races and Wherlein managed to get high up in Q2 in this last race. What is more likely then? Good car or a stronger pair of drivers than we think?


Yeah I agree about Ericsson, but does anyone know why he was so off the pace in Bahrain? Wherlein was just in another planet in that car and it wasn't like this at all in Australia. Wherlein had a really good race weekend and I was actually impressed how he didn't seem to miss a beat after his absence.

I don't actually think his race pace was that bad. Admittedly, that qualifying was indeed poor. I saw someone on F1 fanatic say that Wherlein gained 19 seconds over Ericsson due to the safety car and the team not pitting Ericsson during that period. And then they said that Ericsson retired when he was only 11 seconds behind. So if this is true, at this point Ericsson was clearly faster and Wherlien was a little lucky. If there had been no safety car and Ericsson didn't retire, I'm certain they'll have been a fair bit closer.


11 seconds behind and one less pitstop.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:11 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
11 seconds behind and one less pitstop.

They both 1 stopped. Wehrlien under the safety car, Ericsson on lap 33.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:25 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
11 seconds behind and one less pitstop.

They both 1 stopped. Wehrlien under the safety car, Ericsson on lap 33.

I think Wehrlien stopped on lap 11 before SC came out. So he hasn't gained any advantage there.

Regarding the OP, with an year old engine, they are definitely the slowest on the grid. Attritions gave them a good final positions for them in Aus and Bahrain. And Wehrlein did a good job to fend off a Kvyat and Palmer in much faster cars.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't rate Ericsson as low as many others do. I personally think his race in Mexico last year was stronger than Wherlein's performance in Austria. Got knocked out on the 1st lap involving Gutierrez and Wherlien, neither of which were to blame. Wherlein unfortunately had to retire but he was the only car to retire that race. Then Ericsson had to do a slow lap right down at the back as his car was damaged. Somehow, after he pitted, Ericsson then managed 69 laps with a damaged car and he finished 11th with pretty much no cars retiring to help him there. He also managed to get through to Q2 in qualifying too. Really solid weekend. Wherlein had a good weekend in Austria too. His qualifying performance was very good indeed. I think he was 12th. But he made a rookie error at the start and parked on the wrong grid slot which was a silly mistake. But he got away with it as he reversed back in time. He did have a good race but quite a lot of faster cars retired. On the last lap, he was 11th with Perez over 20 seconds ahead in 10th. Then Perez's brakes failed. That 10th place finish was very lucky! If there were no retirements that race, He would have been 13th or lower. The reason why I think Ericsson's race weekend in Mexico was more impressive.

They both have had good races and poor races last year. Wherlein cost himself the 1st 2 races of this season by his ROC crash so that wasn't a great start. But yes, his first race was very good. Giovinazzi got far too much hype in my view. He had a decent qualifying and 1st race, but one race was too soon to instantly decide he was far better than Ericsson. Ericsson got knocked out that race and then later retired so we couldn't see how strong he would have been against Giovinazzi. Then in the next race, Giovinazzi crashed in qualifying and crashed in the race. That weekend was clearly one where Ericsson was better. This race in Bahrain, Wherlein did certainly do a better job but I am also surprised by the amount of people that are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Give it until part way through the season. They have only had one race together in the same team so far and Ericsson didn't even manage to finish due to a problem. I actually think they will be pretty evenly matched. Ericsson admittedly was really bad in 2014 and early on in 2015. But later on that season and especially last year, he was clearly better than Nazr overall.

I don't think either of them are that good. I just don't rate Wherlein as high as others do and I don't rate Ericsson as low. But I feel as Ericsson has been with the team for a while, he will have an advantage which will help him some of the time. And from what I've read in some places, Wherlein can sometimes be tricky to get along with. Similar to Nasr in a way. There were quite a lot of occasions last year where both of them refused to follow team orders. This may well have been another reason why Mercedes didn't pick Wherlein. At leased Bottas has clearly been obeying his team orders.

About the car this year, I don't know what position it is in. Either people need to admit Ericsson is at leased a decent qualifier so far or the car is stronger than we all predicted. Ericsson managed to get through to Q2 in both of the 1st 2 races and Wherlein managed to get high up in Q2 in this last race. What is more likely then? Good car or a stronger pair of drivers than we think?


Yeah I agree about Ericsson, but does anyone know why he was so off the pace in Bahrain? Wherlein was just in another planet in that car and it wasn't like this at all in Australia. Wherlein had a really good race weekend and I was actually impressed how he didn't seem to miss a beat after his absence.

I don't actually think his race pace was that bad. Admittedly, that qualifying was indeed poor. I saw someone on F1 fanatic say that Wherlein gained 19 seconds over Ericsson due to the safety car and the team not pitting Ericsson during that period. And then they said that Ericsson retired when he was only 11 seconds behind. So if this is true, at this point Ericsson was clearly faster and Wherlien was a little lucky. If there had been no safety car and Ericsson didn't retire, I'm certain they'll have been a fair bit closer.


11 seconds behind and one less pitstop.

As RaggedMan said, they both only stopped once. https://www.formula1.com/en/results.htm ... mmary.html

And Wherlein stopped just before the safety car. Meaning that after he pitted, all the cars bunched up and made it easier to pass them. Ericsson at this point was further up but had ageing tyres. Then when Ericsson pitted much later on, he obviously didn't have anything such as a safety car that helped him out. And my point earlier mentioned, Ericsson was faster after he pitted and only was 11 second behind just before he retired. So in that time, he'd managed to get 8 seconds closer to Wherlein. And that wasn't bad at all compared to Wherlien considering the luck he had with the safety car.

So overall, yes Wherlien was clearly a lot better in qualifying. But I don't think there was much between them in the race. So it is too soon for all these people to start saying Wherlein has already proved he is clearly better


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:16 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Yes, sauber is that bad.
Pascal was phenomenal last year. The way he dragged the car in Q2 towards the end was unreal.
Cant fault his driving skills last year. He was unlucky to suffer in races at start but thats the life in lower cars.

Ocon too did well, but lets be real. The reason Ocon was signed by Force India was money. Pascal had a seat at Manor and sadly they folded.
Him having to be at Sauber this year has nothing to do with his abilities but the cruel fate.

Mercedes played safe with Bottas, cant really fault them for not taking a risk with driver with just 1 season under his belt in back of the grid car, nothing more. So that means Pascal was left with no choice but to take the only available seat.

And Sauber is the least detailed car on the grid running one year old engine which wont see any major development throughout the season. So the result they got yesterday was great one.


Guess money even bought his 3 10th place finishes.


What does that have to do with him being at FI?
As I said, he did well when he got chance at Manor. But even then he got that seat purely due to sponsorship they needed. And this year, the reason Ocon is at Force India is partially due to same reason.
Between him and Pascal, I dont think speed is the reason to consider him over Pascal.

He has done well so far and got the car in the points. But Force India is no slouch. Its not as competitive as last year yet, but still better than TR in races so far. Look where Perez is finishing.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:55 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't rate Ericsson as low as many others do. I personally think his race in Mexico last year was stronger than Wherlein's performance in Austria. Got knocked out on the 1st lap involving Gutierrez and Wherlien, neither of which were to blame. Wherlein unfortunately had to retire but he was the only car to retire that race. Then Ericsson had to do a slow lap right down at the back as his car was damaged. Somehow, after he pitted, Ericsson then managed 69 laps with a damaged car and he finished 11th with pretty much no cars retiring to help him there. He also managed to get through to Q2 in qualifying too. Really solid weekend. Wherlein had a good weekend in Austria too. His qualifying performance was very good indeed. I think he was 12th. But he made a rookie error at the start and parked on the wrong grid slot which was a silly mistake. But he got away with it as he reversed back in time. He did have a good race but quite a lot of faster cars retired. On the last lap, he was 11th with Perez over 20 seconds ahead in 10th. Then Perez's brakes failed. That 10th place finish was very lucky! If there were no retirements that race, He would have been 13th or lower. The reason why I think Ericsson's race weekend in Mexico was more impressive.

They both have had good races and poor races last year. Wherlein cost himself the 1st 2 races of this season by his ROC crash so that wasn't a great start. But yes, his first race was very good. Giovinazzi got far too much hype in my view. He had a decent qualifying and 1st race, but one race was too soon to instantly decide he was far better than Ericsson. Ericsson got knocked out that race and then later retired so we couldn't see how strong he would have been against Giovinazzi. Then in the next race, Giovinazzi crashed in qualifying and crashed in the race. That weekend was clearly one where Ericsson was better. This race in Bahrain, Wherlein did certainly do a better job but I am also surprised by the amount of people that are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Give it until part way through the season. They have only had one race together in the same team so far and Ericsson didn't even manage to finish due to a problem. I actually think they will be pretty evenly matched. Ericsson admittedly was really bad in 2014 and early on in 2015. But later on that season and especially last year, he was clearly better than Nazr overall.

I don't think either of them are that good. I just don't rate Wherlein as high as others do and I don't rate Ericsson as low. But I feel as Ericsson has been with the team for a while, he will have an advantage which will help him some of the time. And from what I've read in some places, Wherlein can sometimes be tricky to get along with. Similar to Nasr in a way. There were quite a lot of occasions last year where both of them refused to follow team orders. This may well have been another reason why Mercedes didn't pick Wherlein. At leased Bottas has clearly been obeying his team orders.

About the car this year, I don't know what position it is in. Either people need to admit Ericsson is at leased a decent qualifier so far or the car is stronger than we all predicted. Ericsson managed to get through to Q2 in both of the 1st 2 races and Wherlein managed to get high up in Q2 in this last race. What is more likely then? Good car or a stronger pair of drivers than we think?


Yeah I agree about Ericsson, but does anyone know why he was so off the pace in Bahrain? Wherlein was just in another planet in that car and it wasn't like this at all in Australia. Wherlein had a really good race weekend and I was actually impressed how he didn't seem to miss a beat after his absence.

I don't actually think his race pace was that bad. Admittedly, that qualifying was indeed poor. I saw someone on F1 fanatic say that Wherlein gained 19 seconds over Ericsson due to the safety car and the team not pitting Ericsson during that period. And then they said that Ericsson retired when he was only 11 seconds behind. So if this is true, at this point Ericsson was clearly faster and Wherlien was a little lucky. If there had been no safety car and Ericsson didn't retire, I'm certain they'll have been a fair bit closer.


Wherlein pitted on lap 11. So he had to manage the tires to the end of the race. That is like 46 laps? That was a hell of a job and it is quite normal that Ericsson could reduce the gap towards the end as he pitted for fresh supersoft on lap 33. I guess with Sauber, since their car is so slow, their only chance is to try to one stop it.

I'm still baffled by the gap in qualifying. It is rare to see such a gap between teammates nowadays. Looking for Ericsson's quotes and he just said he didn't get the maximum out of the car, but did not say why.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:05 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
As I said, he did well when he got chance at Manor. But even then he got that seat purely due to sponsorship they needed. And this year, the reason Ocon is at Force India is partially due to same reason.
Between him and Pascal, I dont think speed is the reason to consider him over Pascal.


So money is, you think? As far as I know both are pretty much in the same situation: Mercedes junior drivers without much of a personal budget. The reason Ocon is at FI and not Wehrlein is either because FI specifically wanted Ocon, or because Mercedes wanted Ocon to be at FI. But financially it would not make too much of a difference between the two.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:12 am 
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mds wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
As I said, he did well when he got chance at Manor. But even then he got that seat purely due to sponsorship they needed. And this year, the reason Ocon is at Force India is partially due to same reason.
Between him and Pascal, I dont think speed is the reason to consider him over Pascal.


So money is, you think? As far as I know both are pretty much in the same situation: Mercedes junior drivers without much of a personal budget. The reason Ocon is at FI and not Wehrlein is either because FI specifically wanted Ocon, or because Mercedes wanted Ocon to be at FI. But financially it would not make too much of a difference between the two.


Wasnt it because Pascal was hard to work with? That was the word at the time right?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:19 am 
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Ruste13 wrote:
mds wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
As I said, he did well when he got chance at Manor. But even then he got that seat purely due to sponsorship they needed. And this year, the reason Ocon is at Force India is partially due to same reason.
Between him and Pascal, I dont think speed is the reason to consider him over Pascal.


So money is, you think? As far as I know both are pretty much in the same situation: Mercedes junior drivers without much of a personal budget. The reason Ocon is at FI and not Wehrlein is either because FI specifically wanted Ocon, or because Mercedes wanted Ocon to be at FI. But financially it would not make too much of a difference between the two.


Wasnt it because Pascal was hard to work with? That was the word at the time right?


Yeah that was the rumor but I don't know if it's really true so... Either way that would also fit my first reason, being FI specifically wanting Ocon and not Wehrlein :)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:32 am 
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kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I don't rate Ericsson as low as many others do. I personally think his race in Mexico last year was stronger than Wherlein's performance in Austria. Got knocked out on the 1st lap involving Gutierrez and Wherlien, neither of which were to blame. Wherlein unfortunately had to retire but he was the only car to retire that race. Then Ericsson had to do a slow lap right down at the back as his car was damaged. Somehow, after he pitted, Ericsson then managed 69 laps with a damaged car and he finished 11th with pretty much no cars retiring to help him there. He also managed to get through to Q2 in qualifying too. Really solid weekend. Wherlein had a good weekend in Austria too. His qualifying performance was very good indeed. I think he was 12th. But he made a rookie error at the start and parked on the wrong grid slot which was a silly mistake. But he got away with it as he reversed back in time. He did have a good race but quite a lot of faster cars retired. On the last lap, he was 11th with Perez over 20 seconds ahead in 10th. Then Perez's brakes failed. That 10th place finish was very lucky! If there were no retirements that race, He would have been 13th or lower. The reason why I think Ericsson's race weekend in Mexico was more impressive.

They both have had good races and poor races last year. Wherlein cost himself the 1st 2 races of this season by his ROC crash so that wasn't a great start. But yes, his first race was very good. Giovinazzi got far too much hype in my view. He had a decent qualifying and 1st race, but one race was too soon to instantly decide he was far better than Ericsson. Ericsson got knocked out that race and then later retired so we couldn't see how strong he would have been against Giovinazzi. Then in the next race, Giovinazzi crashed in qualifying and crashed in the race. That weekend was clearly one where Ericsson was better. This race in Bahrain, Wherlein did certainly do a better job but I am also surprised by the amount of people that are already deciding he is better than Ericsson. Give it until part way through the season. They have only had one race together in the same team so far and Ericsson didn't even manage to finish due to a problem. I actually think they will be pretty evenly matched. Ericsson admittedly was really bad in 2014 and early on in 2015. But later on that season and especially last year, he was clearly better than Nazr overall.

I don't think either of them are that good. I just don't rate Wherlein as high as others do and I don't rate Ericsson as low. But I feel as Ericsson has been with the team for a while, he will have an advantage which will help him some of the time. And from what I've read in some places, Wherlein can sometimes be tricky to get along with. Similar to Nasr in a way. There were quite a lot of occasions last year where both of them refused to follow team orders. This may well have been another reason why Mercedes didn't pick Wherlein. At leased Bottas has clearly been obeying his team orders.

About the car this year, I don't know what position it is in. Either people need to admit Ericsson is at leased a decent qualifier so far or the car is stronger than we all predicted. Ericsson managed to get through to Q2 in both of the 1st 2 races and Wherlein managed to get high up in Q2 in this last race. What is more likely then? Good car or a stronger pair of drivers than we think?


Yeah I agree about Ericsson, but does anyone know why he was so off the pace in Bahrain? Wherlein was just in another planet in that car and it wasn't like this at all in Australia. Wherlein had a really good race weekend and I was actually impressed how he didn't seem to miss a beat after his absence.

I don't actually think his race pace was that bad. Admittedly, that qualifying was indeed poor. I saw someone on F1 fanatic say that Wherlein gained 19 seconds over Ericsson due to the safety car and the team not pitting Ericsson during that period. And then they said that Ericsson retired when he was only 11 seconds behind. So if this is true, at this point Ericsson was clearly faster and Wherlien was a little lucky. If there had been no safety car and Ericsson didn't retire, I'm certain they'll have been a fair bit closer.


Wherlein pitted on lap 11. So he had to manage the tires to the end of the race. That is like 46 laps? That was a hell of a job and it is quite normal that Ericsson could reduce the gap towards the end as he pitted for fresh supersoft on lap 33. I guess with Sauber, since their car is so slow, their only chance is to try to one stop it.

I'm still baffled by the gap in qualifying. It is rare to see such a gap between teammates nowadays. Looking for Ericsson's quotes and he just said he didn't get the maximum out of the car, but did not say why.


Yes, it isn't often we see gaps that large. But I remember 2 occasions last year. I think in Italy, Hamilton was 0.5 seconds quicker than Rosberg. But because of how dominant the Mercedes was, Rosberg still managed 2nd. Bottas's first 2 qualifying sessions this year were quite a bit closer to Hamilton than that but it was mainly due to Ferrari's pace that made it look worse. Then there was Singapore last year. Rosberg beat Hamilton by 0.7 seconds here and Hamilton was beaten by Ricciardo. I think Ericsson will have just done 2 poor laps this time. He was stronger in both the previous qualifying sessions this year.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Of course not. In 2017 machines drivers make a difference again and there is a good 1 second of a difference between the fastest and the slowest one, not to mention skills like starts, setting up a car, developing a car, managing pace, overtaking, defending and so on.

Sauber was 4 tenths off McLaren in Australia and China and 1 tenth faster in Bahrain. If you think it would be the same if we swap drivers between both teams, well... :)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Armchair Expert wrote:
Of course not. In 2017 machines drivers make a difference again and there is a good 1 second of a difference between the fastest and the slowest one, not to mention skills like starts, setting up a car, developing a car, managing pace, overtaking, defending and so on.

Sauber was 4 tenths off McLaren in Australia and China and 1 tenth faster in Bahrain. If you think it would be the same if we swap drivers between both teams, well... :)


I don't think the gap between best and worst should be 1 sec. Well, excluding lance stroll 😂
If a driver is one sec slower than the absolute best driver he probably shouldn't be on the grid.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:11 pm 
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They will be clearly the worst car on the grid once McLaren improves (they should improve a lot sooner or later). As for now, McLaren is right along with them.

Except for Sauber, all the other teams including McLaren have shown pace to aim for some points. Renault, Haas, McLaren and Toro Rosso all have scored or should have scored points. McLaren didnt only because of reliability issues.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:27 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Armchair Expert wrote:
Of course not. In 2017 machines drivers make a difference again and there is a good 1 second of a difference between the fastest and the slowest one, not to mention skills like starts, setting up a car, developing a car, managing pace, overtaking, defending and so on.

Sauber was 4 tenths off McLaren in Australia and China and 1 tenth faster in Bahrain. If you think it would be the same if we swap drivers between both teams, well... :)


I don't think the gap between best and worst should be 1 sec. Well, excluding lance stroll 😂
If a driver is one sec slower than the absolute best driver he probably shouldn't be on the grid.


That's probably true, but the gap between the best and worst is still about 1 second I think. Maybe 0.8 but certainly no lower.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:32 pm 
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As "worst" cars on the grid go..... thus far, they are not that bad.

One of the best 'worst' cars in my memory.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:30 pm 
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It points to an interesting fact with regards to the current grid. There currently are no real backmarker teams in F1. Since Manor folded up, we are left with only front-runners and a midfield. I suppose Sauber are the closest to a legitimate backmarker that we have currently but they are much more competitive than the Manors, Virgins and HRTs of the recent past.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
It points to an interesting fact with regards to the current grid. There currently are no real backmarker teams in F1. Since Manor folded up, we are left with only front-runners and a midfield. I suppose Sauber are the closest to a legitimate backmarker that we have currently but they are much more competitive than the Manors, Virgins and HRTs of the recent past.


McLaren qualified nearly 5 seconds off the pole position last race. If that's not a back marker, I dont know what is.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It points to an interesting fact with regards to the current grid. There currently are no real backmarker teams in F1. Since Manor folded up, we are left with only front-runners and a midfield. I suppose Sauber are the closest to a legitimate backmarker that we have currently but they are much more competitive than the Manors, Virgins and HRTs of the recent past.


McLaren qualified nearly 5 seconds off the pole position last race. If that's not a back marker, I dont know what is.

Lol, they were not 5 seconds off the top. They were only about 1 second off in Q1 but couldn't run a lap in Q2. I cannot consider a team with their resources to be a true backmarker. Right now they are hamstrung by an unreliable engine that they cannot even run at full blast (and that would still be underpowered if they could). I expect them to be solidly in the midfield area by season's end.


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