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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:35 pm 
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A question for those stat experts here, who can certainly answer a query like this.

What is the longest draught that a top tier team has entered and then eventually recovered from and gone on to win again (a championship)?

McLaren has now gone 5 years without a win and this looks to be extended for the foreseeable future. It is highly likely (to me) that they could easily go another 2-3 years before they win another race.

I'm left wondering how long a former winning team has gone without a win and not faded away into oblivion. I've watched a lot of teams who were former winners lose their mojo and then ultimately disappear. Brabham, Lotus, Tyrell, and going back into history, BRM and Matra. Williams has lost the ability to win and somehow still hangs on, for how much longer, who knows?

I struggle to think of teams that have drifted off into oblivion and then recovered. I'm not counting teams who have left F1 and returned and come back winning like Mercedes.

Thoughts anyone?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Without even googling that has to be Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Without even googling that has to be Ferrari.


16 yrs (1983 - 1999)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Longest gaps between constructors titles
1. Ferrari - 15 years - 1984 to 1998
2. Ferrari - 10 years - 1965 to 1974
3. McLaren - 9 years - 1975 to 1983
4. McLaren - 6 years - 1992 to 1997

(Only counting the years between the years in which they won)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:01 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Longest gaps between constructors titles
1. Ferrari - 15 years - 1984 to 1998
2. Ferrari - 10 years - 1965 to 1974
3. McLaren - 9 years - 1975 to 1983
4. McLaren - 6 years - 1992 to 1997

(Only counting the years between the years in which they won)


To be broken by Mclaren if/when they win another WCC;

Mclaren 1999-2016, 18 years and counting
Ferrari 2009-2016, 8 years and counting

Who would have believed you if you said at the end of 2004 when Ferrari just secured there 6th straight WCC that they would go on to win two more in the next 12 seasons.

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Last edited by lamo on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:02 pm 
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Current runs:
1. Williams - 19 years - last title 1997
2. McLaren - 18 years - last title 1998
3. Ferrari - 8 years - last title 2008
4. Red Bull - 3 years - last title 2013

Edit - lamo beat me to it.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:04 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Current runs:
1. Williams - 19 years - last title 1997
2. McLaren - 18 years - last title 1998
3. Ferrari - 8 years - last title 2008
4. Red Bull - 3 years - last title 2013

The OP said a championship so the WDC has to count as well.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Current runs:
1. Williams - 19 years - last title 1997
2. McLaren - 18 years - last title 1998
3. Ferrari - 8 years - last title 2008
4. Red Bull - 3 years - last title 2013

The OP said a championship so the WDC has to count as well.


Good point, when you take both into account you get this:

Years Between Titles - Drivers + Constructors
1. Ferrari - 15 years - 1984 to 1998
2. Brabham - 13 years - 1968 to 1980
3. Ferrari - 10 years - 1965 to 1974
4. McLaren - 8 years - 2000 to 2007
5. McLaren - 7 years - 1977 to 1983
6. McLaren - 6 years - 1992 to 1997
Stopped here as all others are less than 5 years.



Current Runs
1. Williams - 19 years - last title 1997
2. Ferrari - 8 years - last title 2008
3. McLaren - 8 years - last title 2008
4. Red Bull - 3 years - last title 2013


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Without even googling that has to be Ferrari.


You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:47 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Longest gaps between constructors titles
1. Ferrari - 15 years - 1984 to 1998
2. Ferrari - 10 years - 1965 to 1974
3. McLaren - 9 years - 1975 to 1983
4. McLaren - 6 years - 1992 to 1997

(Only counting the years between the years in which they won)


To be broken by Mclaren if/when they win another WCC;

Mclaren 1999-2016, 18 years and counting
Ferrari 2009-2016, 8 years and counting

Who would have believed you if you said at the end of 2004 when Ferrari just secured there 6th straight WCC that they would go on to win two more in the next 12 seasons.


I was wracking my brains there until I noticed you said WCC, not WDC. Just goes to show what I said the other day, (MOST) people don't remember WCC if another team wins the WDC.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Without even googling that has to be Ferrari.


You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.


And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.

If they lose their top line driver, lose works status and go another 5yrs then they'll slip like Williams did I think. It took a good 10 years(But only 3 or 4 after losing works status) for Williams to stop being thought of as a top team after their last championship (1997 to Late 2000's imo).

McLaren have a larger fanbase,had more success and have stronger heritage than them so I can't see how it will happen any quicker.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Nobody's mentioned Brabham - Didn't win a title between 67 and 81.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Nobody's mentioned Brabham - Didn't win a title between 67 and 81.

4 posts above yours ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:18 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Without even googling that has to be Ferrari.


You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.


And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.



I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Without even googling that has to be Ferrari.


You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.


And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.



I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.


I don't think it's as bad as all that. They have a good technical department, rich owners, a 10 year works deal, a new boss who understands marketing and has already played a blinder. There's more good than bad it's just the bad is the most important in terms of current competitiveness.

The engine is the main issue why they are where they are and yeah Honda have gone massively wrong in it's approach to the engine but they are making strides to correct that by all accounts with the rumoured help from Mercedes. It's taken far too long to get to that point of course so no excuses there.

For all the drama, Alonso still believes they will be much better after the summer break. I'm not sure he'd be saying that if it was terminal. The first step seems to be coming in Canada.

The pre chamber tech caught everyone napping and Honda were too slow to react because they were trying to fix other issues, namely the ERS in 2015 and over the winter into 2016. Trying to go it alone with their version of TJI like no-one else did and testing multiple different solutions instead of copying the one we knew worked great is what cost them this PU that started this year.

They seem to get that now, maybe it's too late to keep Alonso, I personally don't think it is but I get why people would because it's hard to have any faith in the project because it's been such a failure up until now. We'll see what the situation is after the summer.

While I think it's important to keep a star driver for obvious reasons, even if they lose Alonso they won't fade into oblivion. They've survived barren runs in every decade seemingly and they'll survive this one.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Without even googling that has to be Ferrari.


You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.


And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.



I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.


I don't think it's as bad as all that. They have a good technical department, rich owners, a 10 year works deal, a new boss who understands marketing and has already played a blinder. There's more good than bad it's just the bad is the most important in terms of current competitiveness.

The engine is the main issue why they are where they are and yeah Honda have gone massively wrong in it's approach to the engine but they are making strides to correct that by all accounts with the rumoured help from Mercedes. It's taken far too long to get to that point of course so no excuses there.

For all the drama, Alonso still believes they will be much better after the summer break. I'm not sure he'd be saying that if it was terminal. The first step seems to be coming in Canada.

The pre chamber tech caught everyone napping and Honda were too slow to react because they were trying to fix other issues, namely the ERS in 2015 and over the winter into 2016. Trying to go it alone with their version of TJI like no-one else did and testing multiple different solutions instead of copying the one we knew worked great is what cost them this PU that started this year.

They seem to get that now, maybe it's too late to keep Alonso, I personally don't think it is but I get why people would because it's hard to have any faith in the project because it's been such a failure up until now. We'll see what the situation is after the summer.

While I think it's important to keep a star driver for obvious reasons, even if they lose Alonso they won't fade into oblivion. They've survived barren runs in every decade seemingly and they'll survive this one.


Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:21 pm 
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Ruste13 wrote:

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


People said that about Toyota too...
;)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:45 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


People said that about Toyota too...
;)

Toyota didn't have a bunch of F1 championship trophies collecting dust on the mantle...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:24 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


People said that about Toyota too...
;)

Toyota didn't have a bunch of F1 championship trophies collecting dust on the mantle...

Past success does not guarantee future success.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:17 am 
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Blake wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


People said that about Toyota too...
;)


Exactly. Everyone pointed to Toyota's unlimited budget and phenomenal engineering success. Toyota never got their game going.

Same thing with the Honda works team. A complete and total failure.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:47 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


People said that about Toyota too...
;)


Mclaren could end up with another engine supplier...In anycase I would compare Mclaren to Ferrari before Toyota.

Cannot get the quote button working for some reason :/


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:04 pm 
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specdecible wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


People said that about Toyota too...
;)

Toyota didn't have a bunch of F1 championship trophies collecting dust on the mantle...

Past success does not guarantee future success.

Of course not, hence the premise of this thread. I just think it's worth noting that the belief that Toyota would reach the top was based purely on their ability to spend money while the belief in Honda stems partially from their pedigree and track record. Of course that track record was built in a completely different era and with totally different people...


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Ruste13 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


People said that about Toyota too...
;)


Mclaren could end up with another engine supplier...In anycase I would compare Mclaren to Ferrari before Toyota.

Cannot get the quote button working for some reason :/



There is little to stop Honda calling it a day and contracting another engine builder* to do the job on contract and still badge it Honda.

* It would need far more than a n engine builder, probably some sort of consortium to make the wide spread of tec needed.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:29 pm 
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I think they've accepted outside help now, there was a story about engineers in plain clothes on the McLaren side at the Bahrain test looking after the electrical side of things.


https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/svolt ... si-896361/

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:30 pm 
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moby wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Blake wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:

Totally agree. I dont think they will just slip quietly into the night. Honda will have to get it right eventually.


People said that about Toyota too...
;)


Mclaren could end up with another engine supplier...In anycase I would compare Mclaren to Ferrari before Toyota.

Cannot get the quote button working for some reason :/



There is little to stop Honda calling it a day and contracting another engine builder* to do the job on contract and still badge it Honda.

* It would need far more than a n engine builder, probably some sort of consortium to make the wide spread of tec needed.

Cosworth-Magneti-McLaren-Honda.
ICE, MGU's, battery, funding source.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:47 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
moby wrote:
There is little to stop Honda calling it a day and contracting another engine builder* to do the job on contract and still badge it Honda.

* It would need far more than a n engine builder, probably some sort of consortium to make the wide spread of tec needed.

Cosworth-Magneti-McLaren-Honda.
ICE, MGU's, battery, funding source.


If FIA do go the external engine route, it would be better to have a separate supply of all the parts. If taken far enough it could even see a return to the "Garageste" days when everyone found a DFV and someone to tune it, someone do the gearbox, and enter it as your own name :D


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:45 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

Is this thread about win draughts, or is it just a(nother) chance for you to bash McLaren? I realize it seems to be your primary occupation recently, but don't you already have enough threads to do that in without creating another?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:02 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

Is this thread about win draughts,


Yes.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:40 am 
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Draught - Alternate spelling of draft, pulling of ale or cider from a keg, or a type of horse used to pull heavy loads.

Drought - An extended period of weather with no precipitation, or long period between events.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:49 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Draught - Alternate spelling of draft, pulling of ale or cider from a keg, or a type of horse used to pull heavy loads.

Drought - An extended period of weather with no precipitation, or long period between events.


I was going to make a joke about wind. But just assumed English isn't the OPs first language.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Draught - Alternate spelling of draft, pulling of ale or cider from a keg, or a type of horse used to pull heavy loads.

Drought - An extended period of weather with no precipitation, or long period between events.


I was going to make a joke about wind. But just assumed English isn't the OPs first language.

I make that assumption most of the time on this forum as well and wouldn't have brought it up if it hadn't been repeated later in the thread.

And let's be honest. English has stupid pronunciation rules because there's no reason for the end of those two words to pronounced differently.
https://youtu.be/1hJQsvoY6VU

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Draught - Alternate spelling of draft, pulling of ale or cider from a keg, or a type of horse used to pull heavy loads.

Drought - An extended period of weather with no precipitation, or long period between events.


I was going to make a joke about wind. But just assumed English isn't the OPs first language.


Nope, I'm a native English speaker, just not a very good one. Go ahead and let me have it! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:46 pm 
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how about Tyrrell 1971 - Brawn GP 2009


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Without even googling that has to be Ferrari.


You know, I thought about that while writing up my post and I wanted to exclude Ferrari, simply because they have so much heritage and tradition that it's nearly impossible for them to disappear. Sorry to have forgotten to add that to my OP.


And McLaren don't?. I'd say they're not that far behind Ferrari in that regard at all. Over 50 years in F1 now.



I used to think that about McLaren but dont anymore. They have fallen off the rails so bad it seems almost impossible to think that they can win again.

While McLaren may have 50 years in F1, they are a radically different team than what was originally started by Bruce McLaren. They won early, shortly after his death, but then quickly became a second rate team, only being saved by Ron Dennis in the early 80's. Ron's McLaren was massively, massively different from the McLaren of the early to mid '70s. Only the name remained the same. Now with Ron gone, McLaren is spiraling out of control, getting worse and worse with each year.

They have already reached Williams level of hopelessness and are continuing to dig an even deeper hole.

Alonso would be a fool to stay with McLaren. Any other quality driver would be a fool to sign a contract with McLaren. With no drivers, no wins in years, who will sponsor McLaren? Sears? That would be a good fit.

Bit dramatic

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Things look very bleak for McLaren right now. I'm not optimistic, but for those who think they will never be anything if they don't retain Alonso, I never thought Alonso was a long term answer. He's getting old. Maybe he hasn't lost anything but he soon will. Some of the last Hamilton years, and the year with the rear wing stall were definitely missed opportunities as they were close. Lately they are light years off winning.

Ferrari has been so close so many times lately they have to capitalize this year. They weren't close last year, so there is no guarantee they will be close next year.

Its weird to see all of the big three going through an extended down period at the same time...in the past it was usually one or two down and one or two up.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:27 pm 
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stratos wrote:
how about Tyrrell 1971 - Brawn GP 2009

1973, not 1971. Tenuous but good luck finding a longer gap between titles.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:16 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
stratos wrote:
how about Tyrrell 1971 - Brawn GP 2009

1973, not 1971. Tenuous but good luck finding a longer gap between titles.


Mercedes 1955-2014


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
stratos wrote:
how about Tyrrell 1971 - Brawn GP 2009

1973, not 1971. Tenuous but good luck finding a longer gap between titles.


Mercedes 1955-2014

Is it too late to amend that to longer continuous gap?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
stratos wrote:
how about Tyrrell 1971 - Brawn GP 2009

1973, not 1971. Tenuous but good luck finding a longer gap between titles.

Mercedes 1955-2014

I almost posted this, but since they didn't compete between 1956 and 2009 it's really only a 4 year gap. Technically I suppose it will probably remain the longest until Alfa returns to the sport and wins, but I think by any reasonable measure it can't be considered.

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