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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2017 11:40 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
It comes down to what the teams bring to the sport. Bernie was not in the habit of giving away money for no reason.

He gave money to Red Bull so he could destabilise FOCA who were looking to have a bigger say in how F1 was run, FOCA folded a few years afterwards.

:thumbup:

Indeed. Bernie didn't give away money for nothing, but that doesn't mean his motive was anything like what he claimed it was.

So, basically, poker, Exediron and Blake all seem to agree on the topic of bernie the rat's motivations. This is a rare event.
;)

Indeed which still doesn't make the present situation right, Bernie's gone now so the times may be a changing?

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:06 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
It comes down to what the teams bring to the sport. Bernie was not in the habit of giving away money for no reason.

He gave money to Red Bull so he could destabilise FOCA who were looking to have a bigger say in how F1 was run, FOCA folded a few years afterwards.

:thumbup:

Indeed. Bernie didn't give away money for nothing, but that doesn't mean his motive was anything like what he claimed it was.

So, basically, poker, Exediron and Blake all seem to agree on the topic of bernie the rat's motivations. This is a rare event.
;)

Indeed which still doesn't make the present situation right, Bernie's gone now so the times may be a changing?


scarcasm deleted. Apologies.

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Last edited by Blake on Fri May 12, 2017 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Fine... then let the teams all have their own profits from branded items rather than having divided amongst all teams. Let the teams negotiate with each venue for a share if revenue based on their fan base in attendance. Lets face it some teams mean more to F1 than do others. Some bring more money and fans into the sport... and a small handful of teams have made F1 into the popular sport that is today...

You cant deny their impact... well i guess you can, but it would be s bit foolish.

So let the circuits pay Ferrari instead, anyway to keep Ferrari's financial advantage.


Yeah, whatever you say, poker. Ignore the whole process of the discussion (you do that well).

The point is, and I repeat it again... that some teams bring more to the sport than do others, some teams have been a much bigger part in building the sport over decades, some teams have a greater fan base than do others, meaning the sport benefits more because of them. Of course, you know all that, don't you?

It must have really shook you up to see it posted that we actually agreed on something.... couldn't have that now could you?
:lol:

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:27 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Fine... then let the teams all have their own profits from branded items rather than having divided amongst all teams. Let the teams negotiate with each venue for a share if revenue based on their fan base in attendance. Lets face it some teams mean more to F1 than do others. Some bring more money and fans into the sport... and a small handful of teams have made F1 into the popular sport that is today...

You cant deny their impact... well i guess you can, but it would be s bit foolish.

So let the circuits pay Ferrari instead, anyway to keep Ferrari's financial advantage.


Yeah, whatever you say, poker. Ignore the whole process of the discussion (you do that well).

The point is, and I repeat it again... that some teams bring more to the sport than do others, some teams have been a much bigger part in building the sport over decades, some teams have a greater fan base than do others, meaning the sport benefits more because of them. Of course, you know all that, don't you?

It must have really shook you up to see it posted that we actually agreed on something.... couldn't have that now could you?
:lol:

I read what you said and it all comes down to Ferrari being paid what amounts to appearance money because they are far bigger than all the other teams who are basically just making up the numbers, that's how it comes across.

Ferrari being who they are can attract big sponsors, can make more money through merchandising because of their bigger fan base, that should be enough, I don't see why they should be paid more than the other teams just for turning up by either Liberty Media or the circuits themselves, how is that fair in sporting terms?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Fine... then let the teams all have their own profits from branded items rather than having divided amongst all teams. Let the teams negotiate with each venue for a share if revenue based on their fan base in attendance. Lets face it some teams mean more to F1 than do others. Some bring more money and fans into the sport... and a small handful of teams have made F1 into the popular sport that is today...

You cant deny their impact... well i guess you can, but it would be s bit foolish.

So let the circuits pay Ferrari instead, anyway to keep Ferrari's financial advantage.


Yeah, whatever you say, poker. Ignore the whole process of the discussion (you do that well).

The point is, and I repeat it again... that some teams bring more to the sport than do others, some teams have been a much bigger part in building the sport over decades, some teams have a greater fan base than do others, meaning the sport benefits more because of them. Of course, you know all that, don't you?

It must have really shook you up to see it posted that we actually agreed on something.... couldn't have that now could you?
:lol:

I read what you said and it all comes down to Ferrari being paid what amounts to appearance money because they are far bigger than all the other teams who are basically just making up the numbers, that's how it comes across.

Ferrari being who they are can attract big sponsors, can make more money through merchandising because of their bigger fan base, that should be enough, I don't see why they should be paid more than the other teams just for turning up by either Liberty Media or the circuits themselves, how is that fair in sporting terms?


The point being discussed was the desire by some to take away the historical money from the teams. I said "fine" and then pointed out that they could then let the teams have all the revenue earned by their labeled promotional materials, after all, why should they have to share it? As for the idea of the teams negotiating with tracks for what would basically be "appearance money", I am not advocating it actually, but one could make the case. However, the way it is with the historical money and the bonus money being paid to the teams, the sharing of F1 related promotionl money, that is in effect accounted for.

Again... that money was not given to those teams out of some sense of "love' by the likes of bernie, it is because it was to his/F1's benefit to do so... whether it was for political purposes, or in recognition of what some teams bring to the sport. They pay the money, because it is of value to them. It really is that simple.

Maybe Liberty will end the bonuses, maybe they won't, only time will tell. I know they are suggesting that they don't like it, but in the end??? They too are a business.

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Last edited by Blake on Fri May 12, 2017 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:43 am 
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j man wrote:
Blake wrote:
Fine... then let the teams all have their own profits from branded items rather than having divided amongst all teams. Let the teams negotiate with each venue for a share if revenue based on their fan base in attendance. Lets face it some teams mean more to F1 than do others. Some bring more money and fans into the sport... and a small handful of teams have made F1 into the popular sport that is today...

You cant deny their impact... well i guess you can, but it would be s bit foolish.

In recent years Lewis Hamilton has arguably done more than anyone to draw more fans and money into the sport through his social media activities, TV appearances etc. Perhaps he should get a hefty slice of the TV revenue too?

This is supposed to be a competitive sport. Giving certain teams guaranteed advantages to maintain the status quo is not conducive to fair competition.


You appear to be confused here, j man. Last I knew, Lewis Hamilton does not own a team, in fact he drives for one, and it is in large part because of that team that he has the ability to draw fans and make money though his social activities... which, BTW, he gets paid handsomely for.... not that he shouldn't.

Unless you want F1 to be a totally spec series with no individual teams, there are always going to be teams that have "advantages"... Money helps, but it doesn't guarantee success... take a look at Toyota's and Honda's lack F1 success just over 10 years ago, even though for a while there they were the highest budget team in the sport.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 7:08 am 
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These heritage bonuses make no sense. I find it ludicrous that a company as rich and marketable as Ferrari still feeds on them. And McLaren and Williams, too, as they're guaranteed some good money even while trundling around the lower places of the grid like Williams did in 2013 and McLaren is doing now.

But then, expecting common sense from someone like Bernie Ecclestone (who's the main responsible for the way things are) is probably too much, I guess.

Things like these make F1 less of a sport and more of a circus as it's usually called. In a circus, there's no sport, the show is all that matters.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:24 am 
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F1 has been about the show for many years and it is not the historical payments at the cause.

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:54 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Fine... then let the teams all have their own profits from branded items rather than having divided amongst all teams. Let the teams negotiate with each venue for a share if revenue based on their fan base in attendance. Lets face it some teams mean more to F1 than do others. Some bring more money and fans into the sport... and a small handful of teams have made F1 into the popular sport that is today...

You cant deny their impact... well i guess you can, but it would be s bit foolish.

So let the circuits pay Ferrari instead, anyway to keep Ferrari's financial advantage.


Yeah, whatever you say, poker. Ignore the whole process of the discussion (you do that well).

The point is, and I repeat it again... that some teams bring more to the sport than do others, some teams have been a much bigger part in building the sport over decades, some teams have a greater fan base than do others, meaning the sport benefits more because of them. Of course, you know all that, don't you?

It must have really shook you up to see it posted that we actually agreed on something.... couldn't have that now could you?
:lol:

I read what you said and it all comes down to Ferrari being paid what amounts to appearance money because they are far bigger than all the other teams who are basically just making up the numbers, that's how it comes across.

Ferrari being who they are can attract big sponsors, can make more money through merchandising because of their bigger fan base, that should be enough, I don't see why they should be paid more than the other teams just for turning up by either Liberty Media or the circuits themselves, how is that fair in sporting terms?


The point being discussed was the desire by some to take away the historical money from the teams. I said "fine" and then pointed out that they could then let the teams have all the revenue earned by their labeled promotional materials, after all, why should they have to share it? As for the idea of the teams negotiating with tracks for what would basically be "appearance money", I am not advocating it actually, but one could make the case. However, the way it is with the historical money and the bonus money being paid to the teams, the sharing of F1 related promotionl money, that is in effect accounted for.

Again... that money was not given to those teams out of some sense of "love' by the likes of bernie, it is because it was to his/F1's benefit to do so... whether it was for political purposes, or in recognition of what some teams bring to the sport. They pay the money, because it is of value to them. It really is that simple.

Maybe Liberty will end the bonuses, maybe they won't, only time will tell. I know they are suggesting that they don't like it, but in the end??? They too are a business.

Teams negotiating with the various tracks for appearance money is no different from them receiving special payments and how does that work anyway, if you don't pay us we don't turn up?

This indeed was Bernie's way and was often simply not fair, it seemed to be based more on political motives then for sporting reasons, how he did things seemed to be outdated compared to how other sports are run.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:24 am 
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Blake wrote:
j man wrote:
Blake wrote:
Fine... then let the teams all have their own profits from branded items rather than having divided amongst all teams. Let the teams negotiate with each venue for a share if revenue based on their fan base in attendance. Lets face it some teams mean more to F1 than do others. Some bring more money and fans into the sport... and a small handful of teams have made F1 into the popular sport that is today...

You cant deny their impact... well i guess you can, but it would be s bit foolish.

In recent years Lewis Hamilton has arguably done more than anyone to draw more fans and money into the sport through his social media activities, TV appearances etc. Perhaps he should get a hefty slice of the TV revenue too?

This is supposed to be a competitive sport. Giving certain teams guaranteed advantages to maintain the status quo is not conducive to fair competition.


You appear to be confused here, j man. Last I knew, Lewis Hamilton does not own a team, in fact he drives for one, and it is in large part because of that team that he has the ability to draw fans and make money though his social activities... which, BTW, he gets paid handsomely for.... not that he shouldn't.

Unless you want F1 to be a totally spec series with no individual teams, there are always going to be teams that have "advantages"... Money helps, but it doesn't guarantee success... take a look at Toyota's and Honda's lack F1 success just over 10 years ago, even though for a while there they were the highest budget team in the sport.

Is Hamilton's situation that different to Ferrari's? F1 has provided the vehicle for Ferrari to build their brand and they are already paid handsomely to compete even without these extra payments. All these extra payments achieve in doing is locking in a competitive advantage for Ferrari, incidentally a matter you have expressed very strong opinions on when it relates to engine development rules that help Mercedes. Ferrari are successful because they draw in a lot of fans so they get extra TV money' the extra TV money keeps them competitive and draws in even more fans. It's a self-perpetuating cycle that creates almost insurmountable barriers to new teams and turns F1 into a closed shop.

Toyota and Honda are exceptions to the rule, mostly because they existed at a time when most of the teams were manufacturer-owned and ran astronomical budgets; the additional £50 million or £100 million they might have spent would provide only marginal gains over the large budgets everyone else was using. If you look at the grid now (and indeed for most of F1's history) there is an extremely strong correlation between budget and lap time.

If you believe that Ferrari are deserving of 'special' payments because of their long involvement in the sport then fair enough, I understand the point you are making even if I disagree with it. But to claim that this does not adversely affect the competitiveness of the rest of the teams, I feel that is just denial of the basic facts. Add up the total revenue using the figures in the OP and divide it equally between the teams - you end up more than doubling Sauber's payment.


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