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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:18 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Seb would be an upgrade for Mercedes over Hamilton, but I can't see him leaving Ferrari now they are starting to look competitive again.


You sound like one of those "experts" who said that McLaren would be better off without Lewis in 2012..
Hamilton will change team very soon so you will see which team will get an upgrade.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:16 pm 
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well we have seen one encounter between them recently and lewis showed seb how to overtake - he actually said watch this move upgrade seb


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:22 pm 
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slide wrote:
well we have seen one encounter between them recently and lewis showed seb how to overtake - he actually said watch this move upgrade seb

Well that's just bullsh*t, too. Lewis didn't show Vettel how to overtake. I doubt there's much either could teach the other at this stage


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:59 pm 
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slide wrote:
well we have seen one encounter between them recently and lewis showed seb how to overtake - he actually said watch this move upgrade seb


I make "overtakes" like that every day on the motorway - can I claim I showed Lewis how to overtake? :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 5:05 pm 
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slide wrote:
well we have seen one encounter between them recently and lewis showed seb how to overtake - he actually said watch this move upgrade seb

"I can hold down my DRS button better than you"


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:37 pm 
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I just teasing masteracer, don't be so offended all the time


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:50 am 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Seb would be an upgrade for Mercedes over Hamilton, but I can't see him leaving Ferrari now they are starting to look competitive again.


:lol: Even as anti-Lewis as I am, that's funny. They are surely about on a par, even I am not blinkered enough to claim Vettel would be an upgrade.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:37 am 
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ALESI wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Seb would be an upgrade for Mercedes over Hamilton, but I can't see him leaving Ferrari now they are starting to look competitive again.


:lol: Even as anti-Lewis as I am, that's funny. They are surely about on a par, even I am not blinkered enough to claim Vettel would be an upgrade.


There are drivers who excel:
- at the sharp end
- in the pack

I will not name names but It is my opinion that the skills needed to do well at the sharp end are different to those necessary to fight in the midfield.

Vettel was not at his best in 2014 and in 2016, Hamilton was not at his best in 2011 even though he was still faster than his teammate. But both have one thing in common, they excel at the sharp end and I don't think the drivers behind can reach their highest peaks(speed not overtakes).

Hamilton have won many races similar to Barcelona 2017 before(China 2011, Germany 2011, Hungary 2013, Canada 2010, USA 2012, Bahrain 2014, Austria 2016, USA 2015, [special mention to his 2006 GP2 race 2 in Turkey even though he didn't win] etc..) , races where he had to overtake the guy in the lead to win. That his style.

If you ask your driver to drive for 5th and 6th positions, both Hamilton and Vettel would do poorly. There are better drivers than them for this.
If you ask your driver to securely drive to 3rd-4th every race, there are probably better drivers than Hamilton(Vettel and Alonso certainly are in this department).
If you ask your driver to win you a wet race you better have Hamilton in your car. Vettel is second.
If you ask your driver to chase the guy in front and win the race no driver is better than Hamilton. This is stuff.

Vettel is terrific though from pole to win with a dominant car. The best in this department with Alonso.

For this season, as long as Hamilton is second in the race, he will chase down Vettel and win some/many. He only needs to address his starts.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 9:47 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
ALESI wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Seb would be an upgrade for Mercedes over Hamilton, but I can't see him leaving Ferrari now they are starting to look competitive again.


:lol: Even as anti-Lewis as I am, that's funny. They are surely about on a par, even I am not blinkered enough to claim Vettel would be an upgrade.


There are drivers who excel:
- at the sharp end
- in the pack

I will not name names but It is my opinion that the skills needed to do well at the sharp end are different to those necessary to fight in the midfield.

Vettel was not at his best in 2014 and in 2016, Hamilton was not at his best in 2011 even though he was still faster than his teammate. But both have one thing in common, they excel at the sharp end and I don't think the drivers behind can reach their highest peaks(speed not overtakes).

Hamilton have won many races similar to Barcelona 2017 before(China 2011, Germany 2011, Hungary 2013, Canada 2010, USA 2012, Bahrain 2014, Austria 2016, USA 2015, [special mention to his 2006 GP2 race 2 in Turkey even though he didn't win] etc..) , races where he had to overtake the guy in the lead to win. That his style.

If you ask your driver to drive for 5th and 6th positions, both Hamilton and Vettel would do poorly. There are better drivers than them for this.
If you ask your driver to securely drive to 3rd-4th every race, there are probably better drivers than Hamilton(Vettel and Alonso certainly are in this department).
If you ask your driver to win you a wet race you better have Hamilton in your car. Vettel is second.
If you ask your driver to chase the guy in front and win the race no driver is better than Hamilton. This is stuff.

Vettel is terrific though from pole to win with a dominant car. The best in this department with Alonso.

For this season, as long as Hamilton is second in the race, he will chase down Vettel and win some/many. He only needs to address his starts.


:lol: It's getting funnier and funnier, "I will not name names ", a driver fan trying to be unbiased?


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:33 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
I will not name names but It is my opinion that the skills needed to do well at the sharp end are different to those necessary to fight in the midfield.


I agree with this. But start issues aside, I'm not sure anyone sees a Hamilton on pole as a sitting duck...

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:46 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
slide wrote:
well we have seen one encounter between them recently and lewis showed seb how to overtake - he actually said watch this move upgrade seb

"I can hold down my DRS button better than you"
:lol: That made my day! And you've managed to convince me that DRS isn't artificial, it's simply pantomime!

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 12:26 pm 
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As Ferrari seem to be on the up, I think I'd be tempted to stay where I am if I was Seb !

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Yellowbin74 wrote:
As Ferrari seem to be on the up, I think I'd be tempted to stay where I am if I was Seb !


Yeah, he's in danger of doing an Alonso. And if Lewis was to swap with him and then win the title... well, you can imagine the meltdown on this forum. :lol:

Funnily enough I was thinking yesterday, just imagine if Ross had stayed at Merc and then they'd had the domination years, it would all be attributed to him, wouldn't it?

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 1:42 pm 
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As usual, this thread has gone from discussing a topic to basically "my driver is better than yours" fan-based biased exchange of opinions.

Both Hamilton and Vettel are the two top drivers currently active in Formula One, each have many years left in their careers, and both are the hottest commodity on the market. So it's logical that every team that can afford them are currently attempting to get them. This has been going on since the first day of Formula One, and it part of any business. Any team would want Hamilton or Vettel, it's not rocket science.

Most top driver moves are a result of a driver looking to get into the best car. Drivers know that the teams go through cycles up ups and downs, the name of the game is to get into a team on the upswing, obviously not the reverse. Hamilton did just that, and it was no surprise to me. Back when it happened I laid out the logical reasons for his move to many shocked fans.

Even as we are discussing this "Vettel to Mercedes", Hamilton is also exploring his options. It may not be he is unhappy with his team, but solely because it is sound business practice. All drivers are always exploring their options, and teams are constantly making pitches to drivers.

If either driver makes a change of teams, it is not because "I believe he is better in traffic" or any other minor quibble. Both are top drivers, both are hot items, and they will go where they believe they have a better chance of success.

The debate on "Hamilton to Ferrari" is equally on par with "Vettel to Mercedes". Drivers chase the better car, and if both drivers were candidates for one seat in a top team, IMO it would come down to which driver the team can get cheaper.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Please stop Blinky, You're making too much sense!

Seriously, Vettel "Better" than Hamilton? If it's one thing both have showed us is that they are the most consistently brilliant qualifiers we've likely ever seen and BOTH can squeeze out a last laps when it counts like nobodies business, but on this I give the slight edge to Hamilton because of how he was able to squeak past Vettel in slightly less inferior cars that left even Vettel dumbfounded. THAT is how brilliant Lewis is in Qualifying, and the difference between them int hat regard is a minuscule as we've EVER seen, possibly never to be seen again.

When it comes to Sunday from Pole, again, BOTH are quite closely matched but I'd give the slight edge to Vettel because of how amazingly he can pull a gap on the field with cold tires and is one of the most difficult to catch back up in history. Hamilton's at times weak starts have cost him and he's almost always been able to get back to the front, many times to take the win, whereas I can remember Vettel having 3 botched/bad starts ever? and when he's gone, all drivers see is a silhouette of vapors where his car just zipped past on track.

Fighting back through the pack and passing… This is a tricky one because both guys have generally been fighting at the front most of their careers, BUT, I don't think anyone can argue that Hamilton has an ability to pass like no other and it has been that way since his Karting days. Just an uncanny ability to pass so when he says he can't find a way to pass someone, we should take his word for it. Vettel however holds his own in that regard as well, given his car is well setup and he's comfortable with the balance. I'd rate him just slightly off.

Their greatest attribute however is their work ethic and here we should just call it a tie, but Vettel has the ability, much like his idol, to meld with his team and rally everyone and raise spirits to another degree. Early on Lewis was able to do this at McLaren but at Mercedes he seems more business. Sure there is great camaraderie and genuine love, but it seems more business than Vettel, at least on the surface. Maybe it's a German Machine thing? LOL

And since Alonso was mentioned, He's not the qualifier those 2 are, but I'll be the son of a motherless goat if that sumbitch doesn't have just as much otherworldly race craft as they do come Sundays. Has anyone ever done as consistently well in less than decent cars before? Senna was a phenom in his day, but he didn't have to shine in un-competitive machinery for a decade. Hell, his entire career was only a decade.

To say one of those guys is CLEARLY better than the other is simply incorrect, and "IF" Mercedes does indeed want Vettel, the have the ability to get him. The only issue would be the timing. I don't think Seb would want to leave a Ferrari team that is on par with Mercedes unless the "leadership" (I use that term loosely) screws the pooch badly, which wouldn't surprise me. That guy in charge at Ferrari is a Joke. From peddling cancer sticks to running a race team with no in between.

This OP is merely more of what we already know… Lauda just can't keep his trap shut. LOL

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:28 pm 
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There is nothing I can add to or disagree with the last 2 posts. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 2:45 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Hamilton's at times weak starts have cost him and he's almost always been able to get back to the front, many times to take the win, whereas I can remember Vettel having 3 botched/bad starts ever? and when he's gone, all drivers see is a silhouette of vapors where his car just zipped past on track.


Whilst I agree with most of your post. Vettel set most of his poles and wins in the era where the start process was a lot easier, this changed for 2016. Hamilton over 2014-2015 lost the lead by the first corner once in 16 poles (Hungary 2015) he also had two other poles where he lost it due to mechanical issue (Australia 2014 and Monza 2014).

Then they changed the rules in 2016 and he lost the lead in his first 3 poles he had and in the first 7 races had lost the lead 4 times and kept it 3 times before sorting his starts and maintaining the lead in the last 4 races.

Also regarding pole conversion rates, nearly all of Vettels poles are 2010 on wards when qualifying was done not on race fuel. Some of Hamiltons poles 2007-2009 were obtained by being lighter than rivals who overcut him come race day.

Vettel has had 1 pole and lost the lead once since these new regulations, Hamilton is also 2-1 this year and maintained the lead in 6 of his last 7 poles, that was 6 straight before Spain. Hamilton used to be awesome on the starts pre-2016, as well as never losing position he also jumped Rosberg 3 times during that run too. These new wider draggier cars also punch a big hole in the air, I think pole is less of an advantage than it was last year and the seasons prior. If you get an equal start to the pole man and it is a long run to turn 1, you have a good chance of overtaking him, the cars are also slightly longer so the front of one car is closer to the rear of the other and closer to its slipstream off the line (this doesn't make a huge difference like the extra width of the cars but its another little factor)

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Last edited by lamo on Fri May 19, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:55 pm 
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It definitely seems like pole is less of an advantage than it used to be, witness Bottas speed to the first corner in Spain.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:57 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Vettel is terrific though from pole to win with a dominant car. The best in this department with Alonso.


You sure? Alonso is probably the worst driver for that role. I'd pick Vettel or Hamilton for it. Alonso really shines when the car's not the best or has to be tamed. He'd be my pick for the 2nd to 4th best car, but he's nowhere close to being the fastest man on the grid. For the best car, no driver can probably touch Vettel. Hamilton would be a close second to him, but Hamilton would do great if it's not the best car either.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:44 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Vettel is terrific though from pole to win with a dominant car. The best in this department with Alonso.


You sure? Alonso is probably the worst driver for that role. I'd pick Vettel or Hamilton for it. Alonso really shines when the car's not the best or has to be tamed. He'd be my pick for the 2nd to 4th best car, but he's nowhere close to being the fastest man on the grid. For the best car, no driver can probably touch Vettel. Hamilton would be a close second to him, but Hamilton would do great if it's not the best car either.

I'm not sure that's supported by the evidence. He seems plenty quick to me


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:45 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Vettel is terrific though from pole to win with a dominant car. The best in this department with Alonso.


You sure? Alonso is probably the worst driver for that role. I'd pick Vettel or Hamilton for it. Alonso really shines when the car's not the best or has to be tamed. He'd be my pick for the 2nd to 4th best car, but he's nowhere close to being the fastest man on the grid. For the best car, no driver can probably touch Vettel. Hamilton would be a close second to him, but Hamilton would do great if it's not the best car either.


I don't agree at all, Alonso is fast plain and simple. Its just he hasn't had the best car in 11 and a half seasons so its not so fresh in the memory. When he had the best car he won every race he should have (with the exception of possibly Canada 2007), he also only made 1 single driving error in the 2 seasons he won the WDC (hitting the wall in Canada 2005) compare that to Vettel and Hamilton when they were younger and fighting for their first WDCs.

This premise of it being the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th best car. The car is what it is, Alonso will drive the time it is capable of regardless of where it falls in the pecking order of cars. That is what he does and why he is so good.

They can all win very easily with a dominant car, that is no challenge at all for the top tier drivers especially when their team mate is inferior.

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Last edited by lamo on Fri May 19, 2017 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:46 pm 
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He's certainly pretty quick when he is putting a lower midfield/back marker car 7th on the grid.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:04 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Vettel is terrific though from pole to win with a dominant car. The best in this department with Alonso.


You sure? Alonso is probably the worst driver for that role. I'd pick Vettel or Hamilton for it. Alonso really shines when the car's not the best or has to be tamed. He'd be my pick for the 2nd to 4th best car, but he's nowhere close to being the fastest man on the grid. For the best car, no driver can probably touch Vettel. Hamilton would be a close second to him, but Hamilton would do great if it's not the best car either.


The only argument I can think of why he would be the worst for delivering in a dominant car is him being rusty because his results in the only car he's driven that comes close to being called dominant was the first 10 races in 2006 and he did great.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:24 pm 
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lamo wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Vettel is terrific though from pole to win with a dominant car. The best in this department with Alonso.


You sure? Alonso is probably the worst driver for that role. I'd pick Vettel or Hamilton for it. Alonso really shines when the car's not the best or has to be tamed. He'd be my pick for the 2nd to 4th best car, but he's nowhere close to being the fastest man on the grid. For the best car, no driver can probably touch Vettel. Hamilton would be a close second to him, but Hamilton would do great if it's not the best car either.


I don't agree at all, Alonso is fast plain and simple. Its just he hasn't had the best car in 11 and a half seasons so its not so fresh in the memory. When he had the best car he won every race he should have (with the exception of possibly Canada 2007), he also only made 1 single driving error in the 2 seasons he won the WDC (hitting the wall in Canada 2005) compare that to Vettel and Hamilton when they were younger and fighting for their first WDCs.

This premise of it being the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th best car. The car is what it is, Alonso will drive the time it is capable of regardless of where it falls in the pecking order of cars. That is what he does and why he is so good.

They can all win very easily with a dominant car, that is no challenge at all for the top tier drivers especially when their team mate is inferior.


Of course he's fast, he's a brilliant racer, just not the fastest IMO. Which is something he's also said at times himself (although he may only be saying it to make himself look better in some way).

And yes, the car is what it is, Alonso simply seems like he puts the most effort to get the most out of it. He's also good at working with cars that are not to his liking. He is a decisive overtaker (except for a period where he forgot how to overtake, getting stuck behind Heidfeld all the time). He also tends to qualify well with slow cars.

On your last point, yeah, if you have the best car, you're gonna win pretty much by definition. I just feel if you have 2015 Merc with Alonso vs. Hamilton/Vettel, Alonso would probably lose. But if you have 2014 Ferrari with Alonso vs. Hamilton/Vettel, I'd bet on Alonso any day of the week.


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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 6:25 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Vettel is terrific though from pole to win with a dominant car. The best in this department with Alonso.


You sure? Alonso is probably the worst driver for that role. I'd pick Vettel or Hamilton for it. Alonso really shines when the car's not the best or has to be tamed. He'd be my pick for the 2nd to 4th best car, but he's nowhere close to being the fastest man on the grid. For the best car, no driver can probably touch Vettel. Hamilton would be a close second to him, but Hamilton would do great if it's not the best car either.


The only argument I can think of why he would be the worst for delivering in a dominant car is him being rusty because his results in the only car he's driven that comes close to being called dominant was the first 10 races in 2006 and he did great.

10 Races
9 Podiums(1stx6 2ndx3)
6 Wins
5 Poles


And it would be a leap to even call that car dominant. I said at the time it was one of the most impressive things i've seen. first or second from the first 9 races of the season. Superb consistency especially as Alonso was only 24 at the time.


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 1:20 pm 
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I think - given the equipment on offer - that Ricciardo and Verstappen have demonstrated that they are the best qualifiers on the grid in the last couple of seasons - as they have been consistently competitive or beaten cars that are clearly superior - and got a lot closer (if behind) than the performance difference would suggest

And I think that if DR and MV had Mercs - or even Ferrari - they'd consistently do better than the current Merc/Ferrari drivers (not every race as Hamilton and Vettel etc are also better than good drivers)

So let's get away from the apparent obsession with many on this forum - who turn nearly everything into LH Vs SV


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 6:00 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
I think - given the equipment on offer - that Ricciardo and Verstappen have demonstrated that they are the best qualifiers on the grid in the last couple of seasons - as they have been consistently competitive or beaten cars that are clearly superior - and got a lot closer (if behind) than the performance difference would suggest

And I think that if DR and MV had Mercs - or even Ferrari - they'd consistently do better than the current Merc/Ferrari drivers (not every race as Hamilton and Vettel etc are also better than good drivers)

So let's get away from the apparent obsession with many on this forum - who turn nearly everything into LH Vs SV

Were did all that come from? 8O

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:05 pm 
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it is between them 2 tho isn't it vettel and Hamilton are fighting for the championship ,no one else will get a look in -red bull have missed their chance for 2017


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:29 pm 
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slide wrote:
it is between them 2 tho isn't it

I think Verstappen is going to have to demonstrate that he can consistently challenge Ricciardo in qualifying before it's between the two of them - keep in mind, the last race was the first time he's beaten Ricciardo in Q3 this year. Until then, it's just Ricciardo, based purely on the empirical data we have.

Although mind you, that empirical data relies on a byzantine connection between Ricciardo and Hamilton that goes RIC/VET (2014) to VET/RAI(2015-17) through RAI/ALO (2014) and then all the way back to ALO/HAM (2007). The truth is that we don't really have a remotely current data point between Hamilton and Ricciardo, so I don't see how we can say Daniel is definitely the faster of the two in qualifying.

ReservoirDog wrote:
Alonso really shines when the car's not the best or has to be tamed. He'd be my pick for the 2nd to 4th best car, but he's nowhere close to being the fastest man on the grid.

... what?

I accept and understand that there are people who don't think Alonso is the best driver. But 'nowhere close'? I'm sorry, but that's just delusional.

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 1:41 am 
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F1Oz wrote:
I think - given the equipment on offer - that Ricciardo and Verstappen have demonstrated that they are the best qualifiers on the grid in the last couple of seasons - as they have been consistently competitive or beaten cars that are clearly superior - and got a lot closer (if behind) than the performance difference would suggest

And I think that if DR and MV had Mercs - or even Ferrari - they'd consistently do better than the current Merc/Ferrari drivers (not every race as Hamilton and Vettel etc are also better than good drivers)

So let's get away from the apparent obsession with many on this forum - who turn nearly everything into LH Vs SV



I dont see Verstappen as a great qualifier. Ricciardo has got the best of him more often than not. Sainz used to be on par with him most of the time and Sainz is definitely no Senna. Max is an unbelievable racer and supreme in the wet but i think even he would admit that his qualifying could be improved.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:13 am 
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Fiki wrote:
lamo wrote:
Schumacher was all but signed for Mclaren for the 1999 season but it fell through because Mclaren would not allow him to carry small personal sponsorship on his helmet and cap.
Interesting. I seem to recall a few observers stating it was more a case of personal antipathy between Schumacher and Dennis.

Lauda was instrumental in getting Hamilton to Mercedes. He might consider Vettel an easier to handle personality than him. But there's more to breaking a contract than some believe, even in F1.

Isn't Vettel's contract a 3 year one? Pretty sure Mercedes and Vettel don't need to break anything for him to move for 2018.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:38 am 
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kleefton wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
I think - given the equipment on offer - that Ricciardo and Verstappen have demonstrated that they are the best qualifiers on the grid in the last couple of seasons - as they have been consistently competitive or beaten cars that are clearly superior - and got a lot closer (if behind) than the performance difference would suggest

And I think that if DR and MV had Mercs - or even Ferrari - they'd consistently do better than the current Merc/Ferrari drivers (not every race as Hamilton and Vettel etc are also better than good drivers)

So let's get away from the apparent obsession with many on this forum - who turn nearly everything into LH Vs SV



I dont see Verstappen as a great qualifier. Ricciardo has got the best of him more often than not. Sainz used to be on par with him most of the time and Sainz is definitely no Senna. Max is an unbelievable racer and supreme in the wet but i think even he would admit that his qualifying could be improved.


Well, there are good arguments to think this way. The fact Ricciardo seems to be a "last Q3 lap beast" doesn't help it though - so often you think Verstappen has it and then Ricciardo just pulls something out of the bag of which you think "wow, where did that come from?".

But then Verstappen seems to claw it all back on race starts, where he is fantastic in placing his car and gaining places. Alonso-esque?

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