planetf1.com

It is currently Sun May 28, 2017 12:56 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 12:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 9:04 pm
Posts: 2012
So, I'm watching Stroll who has been very underwhelming so far but I've been saying to myself "He's only 18, give him a chance". And then I started - was there a really talented who looked out of his depth and no - I wouldn't say so. Guys like Alonso, Kubica, Ricciardo, Hamilton and Vettel all started their careers in an impressive way and never looked like they don't belong. However, all of them debuted in their early 20s.

Max is the only one who I can think of who debuted as a teenager but he looked pretty impressive from the very beginning.

So is it possible that Stroll is simply...not talented enough? Mind you I started watching F1 mid-2000s which is quite late for this forum. So guys who have watched longer than me - can you think of a really talented driver who had a slow start to his career?

Grosjean started out pretty slowly but he was thrown into a pretty bad situation - mid-season in a dog of a car vs Alonso.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8639
Location: Ireland
Jenson Button aged like a fine wine

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:48 pm
Posts: 829
VDV23 wrote:
So, I'm watching Stroll who has been very underwhelming so far but I've been saying to myself "He's only 18, give him a chance". And then I started - was there a really talented who looked out of his depth and no - I wouldn't say so. Guys like Alonso, Kubica, Ricciardo, Hamilton and Vettel all started their careers in an impressive way and never looked like they don't belong. However, all of them debuted in their early 20s.

Max is the only one who I can think of who debuted as a teenager but he looked pretty impressive from the very beginning.

So is it possible that Stroll is simply...not talented enough? Mind you I started watching F1 mid-2000s which is quite late for this forum. So guys who have watched longer than me - can you think of a really talented driver who had a slow start to his career?

Grosjean started out pretty slowly but he was thrown into a pretty bad situation - mid-season in a dog of a car vs Alonso.


Vettel and Alonso were nineteen when they debuted in F1. Alonso in a horrible Minardi, and Vettel mid-season, and both were superbly impressive.

Grosjean was bad, very bad in 2012, and as he proved in Russia, when he was trying to pass Palmer while being completely on the inside kerb, his spatial awareness is still horrible.
He was a terrible racer, and now he's just a bad racer.

I think the start of your career is a good indication of how you will progress in F1.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 1:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 18842
Nigel Mansell's probably the poster boy for late bloomers


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 2:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:29 am
Posts: 1667
mcdo wrote:
Jenson Button aged like a fine wine

Although I'd argue his debut season in 2000 was hugely impressive.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition:
Podium finishes - Australia 2015 (3rd), Austria 2016 (3rd)
2015 Position: 30th (2246 points)
2016 Position: 17th (2824 points)

#KeepFightingMichael
#JB17


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 1963
Sorry to hijack your thread, but reading Damon's book at the moment and I find it staggering that he started in F1 aged 32/33 (not sure). Now drivers at that age are in their twilight years and that's only 25 years ago. I don't really understand why it's necessary for 18 year olds to be in F1 to be honest, okay so Max is doing fine (save for some dangerous moves) - well actually I guess if F1 wants to appeal to a younger demographic why not aim for 15 year olds.

What I mean by that is that if the average age of the viewer is mid 40s, then why is it necessary to appeal to 'younger' fans with an 18 year old. Surely a 21 year old is just as appealing and gives three more years to learn the craft. Can't help thinking they should go back to having to win or finish top three in a feeder series to get a place in F1... but as usual money talks.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 3943
Keke Rosberg came out of nowhere, in terms of his 1981 results in F1 to become a champ in chaotic 1982 championship. Tough he kwas kind of leveled with Emmerson Fittipaldi in 1980, and won the 1978 Race of Champions, albeit with a few contestants, and in rain.
Someone mentioned Nigel Manell who at first, 1980-1984, looked like and average "let me try F1" driver, and became legend at the end.
Gerard Berger looked not so good in 1985, having lost mightily to Boutsen in Arrows, but in 1986 it was a different story with Benetton.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 3:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 10681
ALESI wrote:
Sorry to hijack your thread, but reading Damon's book at the moment and I find it staggering that he started in F1 aged 32/33 (not sure). Now drivers at that age are in their twilight years and that's only 25 years ago. I don't really understand why it's necessary for 18 year olds to be in F1 to be honest, okay so Max is doing fine (save for some dangerous moves) - well actually I guess if F1 wants to appeal to a younger demographic why not aim for 15 year olds.

What I mean by that is that if the average age of the viewer is mid 40s, then why is it necessary to appeal to 'younger' fans with an 18 year old. Surely a 21 year old is just as appealing and gives three more years to learn the craft. Can't help thinking they should go back to having to win or finish top three in a feeder series to get a place in F1... but as usual money talks.


Well Max did do this..

But anyway they have done the things you are saying with the new super licence points. I don't think Verstappen being in F1 is anything to do with money either. I don't think he was hired to appeal to younger fans.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 4:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:04 am
Posts: 1188
Have to say I wasn't hugely impressed with Ricciardo when he started in HRT - I thought he'd be destroying Karthekiyan at the time based on the hype he was getting.
That was a while ago though, happy to eat my words if someone has some stats proving otherwise.

Couldn't have been more thrilled to see him take the game to Vettel in 2014 mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 5:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:08 pm
Posts: 3660
Nico Hulkenberg, Felipe Massa, Nick Heidfeld


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 6:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:35 pm
Posts: 279
Location: Perth, Western Australia
nixxxon wrote:
Nico Hulkenberg, Felipe Massa, Nick Heidfeld


Is Nico great now?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 8:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 3643
Location: Michigan, USA
Ruste13 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Nico Hulkenberg, Felipe Massa, Nick Heidfeld

Is Nico great now?

The thread title is about 'talented' drivers, and I think Hulk definitely qualifies there.

For truly great drivers, Niki Lauda is the obvious choice. He was soundly and comprehensively waxed by Peterson in his first full year, scoring I think 0 points despite his teammate scoring at almost every race, but went on to be one of the best of all time.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2017: Don't Ask| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 20562
Zoue wrote:
Nigel Mansell's probably the poster boy for late bloomers

I think the first 5 seasons he lost out to his teammates?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 20562
MistaVega23 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Jenson Button aged like a fine wine

Although I'd argue his debut season in 2000 was hugely impressive.

I suppose given his lack of experience but he was well beaten by his teammate Ralf Schumacher.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 20562
ALESI wrote:
Sorry to hijack your thread, but reading Damon's book at the moment and I find it staggering that he started in F1 aged 32/33 (not sure). Now drivers at that age are in their twilight years and that's only 25 years ago. I don't really understand why it's necessary for 18 year olds to be in F1 to be honest, okay so Max is doing fine (save for some dangerous moves) - well actually I guess if F1 wants to appeal to a younger demographic why not aim for 15 year olds.

What I mean by that is that if the average age of the viewer is mid 40s, then why is it necessary to appeal to 'younger' fans with an 18 year old. Surely a 21 year old is just as appealing and gives three more years to learn the craft. Can't help thinking they should go back to having to win or finish top three in a feeder series to get a place in F1... but as usual money talks.

Well Verstappen was in the middle of a bidding war between Red Bull and Mercedes, the clincher for Red Bull was simply to offer him a drive in F1, with Stroll it was just a case of his Billionaire father buying him a F1 drive.

I believe only the truly exceptional drivers can hold their own as teenagers in F1, Verstappen being such a driver whilst Stroll is not.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 20562
mikeyg123 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Sorry to hijack your thread, but reading Damon's book at the moment and I find it staggering that he started in F1 aged 32/33 (not sure). Now drivers at that age are in their twilight years and that's only 25 years ago. I don't really understand why it's necessary for 18 year olds to be in F1 to be honest, okay so Max is doing fine (save for some dangerous moves) - well actually I guess if F1 wants to appeal to a younger demographic why not aim for 15 year olds.

What I mean by that is that if the average age of the viewer is mid 40s, then why is it necessary to appeal to 'younger' fans with an 18 year old. Surely a 21 year old is just as appealing and gives three more years to learn the craft. Can't help thinking they should go back to having to win or finish top three in a feeder series to get a place in F1... but as usual money talks.


Well Max did do this..

But anyway they have done the things you are saying with the new super licence points. I don't think Verstappen being in F1 is anything to do with money either. I don't think he was hired to appeal to younger fans.

Indeed he did but in a series 3 rungs down from F1, I have issues with that as well as the super license points not being stringent enough.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 11:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 20562
Ruste13 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Nico Hulkenberg, Felipe Massa, Nick Heidfeld


Is Nico great now?

Well you might class him as being talented?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 5261
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Keke Rosberg came out of nowhere, in terms of his 1981 results in F1 to become a champ in chaotic 1982 championship. Tough he kwas kind of leveled with Emmerson Fittipaldi in 1980, and won the 1978 Race of Champions, albeit with a few contestants, and in rain.
Someone mentioned Nigel Manell who at first, 1980-1984, looked like and average "let me try F1" driver, and became legend at the end.
Gerard Berger looked not so good in 1985, having lost mightily to Boutsen in Arrows, but in 1986 it was a different story with Benetton.

Keke Rosberg won the first F1 race he contested! Hardly someone who didn't impress initially.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 2346
Location: UK
To describe Stroll as underwhelming is incredibly charitable. He's been dreadful and looks painfully out of his depth at this level.

Good drivers thrust into the sport at an early age are at least fast when they start out, even if they lack consistency and make a few mistakes. Stroll is not. I see no place for him in F1 long term.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 10:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:57 am
Posts: 905
Location: Brazil
Button only got his drive because he was impressive in testing, so people were expecting great things of him.

IMO Mansell's biggest achievement was not in F1. Only with the Indycar championship was he able to be considered a legend. Most drivers would've handily won the championship in that FW14B. Frank Williams knew that, which is why he'd rather fire Mansell and hire Prost when the Englishman asked for a raise.

Verstappen may have the speed, but he's completely immature and giving him a 700+ bhp car at the age of 17 was a reckless thing on Red Bull's part.

Stroll will never be a late bloomer. If you research his records carefully, you'll find out why. ;)

_________________
Image

"Ask any racer, any real racer... It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning." (Dominic Toretto, "The Fast and The Furious")


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 12:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8639
Location: Ireland
Pole2Win wrote:
Verstappen may have the speed, but he's completely immature and giving him a 700+ bhp car at the age of 17 was a reckless thing on Red Bull's part.

I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 12:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 3943
flyboy10 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Keke Rosberg came out of nowhere, in terms of his 1981 results in F1 to become a champ in chaotic 1982 championship. Tough he kwas kind of leveled with Emmerson Fittipaldi in 1980, and won the 1978 Race of Champions, albeit with a few contestants, and in rain.
Someone mentioned Nigel Manell who at first, 1980-1984, looked like and average "let me try F1" driver, and became legend at the end.
Gerard Berger looked not so good in 1985, having lost mightily to Boutsen in Arrows, but in 1986 it was a different story with Benetton.

Keke Rosberg won the first F1 race he contested! Hardly someone who didn't impress initially.

Yeah, as I said, heavy rain affected it, and few contestants, as well as the troubles for Emerson with his car, who else would win. Only 5 people finished the race and he beat some back-markers. His 1981 was very bad, in 1982 he came out of nowhere.

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:57 am
Posts: 905
Location: Brazil
mcdo wrote:
I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing


Who cares about results? Do you even watch his behavior on track? It's not just a matter of talent, but having a cool head and racing cleanly.

There are other drivers on the grid who were given their top drives too soon and remained immature because they think they can do what they want. It's no accident that Hamilton is who he is and Vettel keeps crying for blue flags whenever he can't overtake backmarkers in time. Some of them are well in their 30s and lack maturity as well.

Jos Verstappen was very much the same as Max, he was just unlucky things didn't go his way in his career, unlike his son.

_________________
Image

"Ask any racer, any real racer... It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning." (Dominic Toretto, "The Fast and The Furious")


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 12:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8639
Location: Ireland
Pole2Win wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing


Who cares about results? Do you even watch his behavior on track? It's not just a matter of talent, but having a cool head and racing cleanly.

There are other drivers on the grid who were given their top drives too soon and remained immature because they think they can do what they want. It's no accident that Hamilton is who he is and Vettel keeps crying for blue flags whenever he can't overtake backmarkers in time. Some of them are well in their 30s and lack maturity as well.

Jos Verstappen was very much the same as Max, he was just unlucky things didn't go his way in his career, unlike his son.

Right so two of the most successful drivers of all time, who both broke the various "youngest" records when they came along, should have been made sit out and wait a while longer. That's absolutely ridiculous

Max is already 10 times the driver Jos was. And I liked Jos

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7031
There is far more to being the winning driver than just driving fast.
Internal politics with the team and team mate play a huge part, as does "pacing yourself" to get the best out of the tyres and car. I think this would take a while to not only learn, but tweak to your own needs.

The exception seems to be Max, who has an instinctive feel for tyres, extreme reactions, and a driver dad/manager to handle the politics, and seems to fix both problems.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8639
Location: Ireland
moby wrote:
There is far more to being the winning driver than just driving fast.
Internal politics with the team and team mate play a huge part, as does "pacing yourself" to get the best out of the tyres and car. I think this would take a while to not only learn, but tweak to your own needs.

The exception seems to be Max, who has an instinctive feel for tyres, extreme reactions, and a driver dad/manager to handle the politics, and seems to fix both problems.

His dad has stepped back from that role as far as I remember. Once Max got into a top team Jos' job was done

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7031
mcdo wrote:
moby wrote:
There is far more to being the winning driver than just driving fast.
Internal politics with the team and team mate play a huge part, as does "pacing yourself" to get the best out of the tyres and car. I think this would take a while to not only learn, but tweak to your own needs.

The exception seems to be Max, who has an instinctive feel for tyres, extreme reactions, and a driver dad/manager to handle the politics, and seems to fix both problems.

His dad has stepped back from that role as far as I remember. Once Max got into a top team Jos' job was done


He also got in with good conditions, like not being a designated No2 driver etc, which most young drivers would probably have accepted.

He says he has stepped back, but still seems to be there for each race. A safety net if required will help Max do his own thing without being on his own though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm
Posts: 815
Since this topic has wandered into the discussion on young drivers, I'll contribute.

Many years ago a Formula One driver had to manage the entire race on his own. Any assistance from the garage was not even minimal. Of course, with today's pit stops, radio communications and even telemetry to sense when a breeze is blowing up a driver's butt, IMO all today's new generation of drivers have to do is just go fast. The pits make all the major decisions for them.

So it's understandable that teams are now scouting for the next young star. They are easier to promote, they ask less in salary, and none are lacking in the will to win.

_________________
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:45 am
Posts: 429
Location: Michigan, USA
Others have already named a handful of highly talented drivers who didn't impress in their debut season, but so far classifying Stroll's performance as merely unimpressive is perhaps not strong enough. I would say that he has more hope than Palmer at this point -- at least it is his debut season, and at least he is generally less experienced -- but both are trundling around towards the back of the grid while their teammates are fighting up in the top ten. I wouldn't give up all hope on him just yet, but I also have serious doubts that he'll ever really be good enough. That said, he may have simply been promoted to F1 too soon, and he could end up decent after a sharp learning curve. Next season it should become fairly obvious, if he's still around.

As far as the young driver debate goes, I don't see a problem with promoting those who were ready (such as Ocon or Verstappen) to an F1 seat, but I don't think that specifically searching out and promoting younger and younger drivers is a good thing aside from development programs. Even Verstappen I think could have done with another year in a different series; he hit F1 rather immature, and is only just beginning to catch up to where he ought to have been on that front in debut this season. Personally, so long as somebody is of legal age, I don't really feel age should enter into the equation. Whether it's younger or older than usual, so long as they're capable of performing at the top level I see no problem with them being in F1.

_________________
Top Three: 5 wins, 11 podiums | 2016: 9th [6th] | 2017: 15th [1st]
Pick 10: 1 win, 2 podiums | 2016: 22nd | 2017: 22nd
F1 Oracle: 3 wins, 10 podiums | 2016: 6th | 2017: 8th
Group Pick'em: 1 win, 3 podiums | 2016: 14th | 2017: 8th


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:02 am
Posts: 202
Mansell is the obvious choice. No idea why people say Hulk, he got a pole position in his first season... I'm fairly sure he impressed initially despite losing his job for a year.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8639
Location: Ireland
Remmirath wrote:
Even Verstappen I think could have done with another year in a different series; he hit F1 rather immature, and is only just beginning to catch up to where he ought to have been on that front in debut this season.

Should Sainz have waited another year too? Max hammered him on the points table

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 3643
Location: Michigan, USA
mcdo wrote:
Remmirath wrote:
Even Verstappen I think could have done with another year in a different series; he hit F1 rather immature, and is only just beginning to catch up to where he ought to have been on that front in debut this season.

Should Sainz have waited another year too? Max hammered him on the points table

What's the relevance of the points table to the topic of Max's maturity or lack thereof?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2017: Don't Ask| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8639
Location: Ireland
Exediron wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Remmirath wrote:
Even Verstappen I think could have done with another year in a different series; he hit F1 rather immature, and is only just beginning to catch up to where he ought to have been on that front in debut this season.

Should Sainz have waited another year too? Max hammered him on the points table

What's the relevance of the points table to the topic of Max's maturity or lack thereof?

Max was the better driver and the points table is simply in indicator. At the end of the day results are all that count. Perceived immaturity doesn't matter anymore when you're bringing home 4th place finishes in a Toro Rosso

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:31 am
Posts: 1543
for me Sainz has impressed, I think RBR could of taken either and they both would of succeeded. Max is a step above in overtaking on Carlos but Carlos isn't sloppy either. I thought when on the track together they were evenly matched.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:06 am
Posts: 2840
Nico Rosberg, while he was never considered to be bad in his initial seasons no one was really considering him to be an actual championship contender until later in his career.

_________________
Danger is real, fear is choice.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
Best Round Result: 1st (Monaco '12 & '15, Silverstone '14, Austria '15, Mexico '15, China '16)
Podiums: 11
2017 Championship Standing: Don't look, it's hideous!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 4:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 8495
specdecible wrote:
Nico Rosberg, while he was never considered to be bad in his initial seasons no one was really considering him to be an actual championship contender until later in his career.

Nico got the fastest lap in his first race (back when the fastest laps actually meant something).

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 9794
stevey wrote:
for me Sainz has impressed, I think RBR could of taken either and they both would of succeeded. Max is a step above in overtaking on Carlos but Carlos isn't sloppy either. I thought when on the track together they were evenly matched.


They were not. Max almost invariably had the better race pace.

On the topic of his maturity, he hasn't done anything that pointed to him being to immature to being put in F1. Maybe he has had a few issues with admitting guilt in certain run-ins with other drivers, and when receiving team orders, but if that's the case you can retire three quarters of the field as they've pretty much all done that at various ages.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 9794
Pole2Win wrote:
There are other drivers on the grid who were given their top drives too soon and remained immature because they think they can do what they want. It's no accident that Hamilton is who he is and Vettel keeps crying for blue flags whenever he can't overtake backmarkers in time.


Hamilton does not lack maturity on track and that should be enough regarding this discussion. His private life doesn't matter.

Vettel "crying" for blue flags is just smart. He doesn't care one single bit about how what that does for his perception towards the public. He never has. He just cares about how he is going to maximize his chances on getting a good result, and highlighting early enough will make sure those flags are waved.

None of these have anything to do with being mature or immature as a racer.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 18842
mds wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
There are other drivers on the grid who were given their top drives too soon and remained immature because they think they can do what they want. It's no accident that Hamilton is who he is and Vettel keeps crying for blue flags whenever he can't overtake backmarkers in time.


Hamilton does not lack maturity on track and that should be enough regarding this discussion. His private life doesn't matter.

Vettel "crying" for blue flags is just smart. He doesn't care one single bit about how what that does for his perception towards the public. He never has. He just cares about how he is going to maximize his chances on getting a good result, and highlighting early enough will make sure those flags are waved.

None of these have anything to do with being mature or immature as a racer.

This. In terms of a driver's eligibility to be in F1 on the basis of maturity, the only thing that matters is their maturity on track


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:08 pm
Posts: 3660
mds wrote:
stevey wrote:
for me Sainz has impressed, I think RBR could of taken either and they both would of succeeded. Max is a step above in overtaking on Carlos but Carlos isn't sloppy either. I thought when on the track together they were evenly matched.


They were not. Max almost invariably had the better race pace.

Sainz was the de facto number 2 driver in favor of max when they were both together, Sainz always had to let max through and let the best strategy for him. Also he had far more problems than him throughout 2015. On pure speed however, they were not so far off.

Carlos is now nº1 in Toro Rosso and he is comfortably beating Kvyat. He is arguably beating Kyvat more comfortably than Ricciardo.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: afterburner, Google Adsense [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group