planetf1.com

It is currently Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:21 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10593
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
stevey wrote:
for me Sainz has impressed, I think RBR could of taken either and they both would of succeeded. Max is a step above in overtaking on Carlos but Carlos isn't sloppy either. I thought when on the track together they were evenly matched.


They were not. Max almost invariably had the better race pace.

Sainz was the de facto number 2 driver in favor of max when they were both together, Sainz always had to let max through and let the best strategy for him. Also he had far more problems than him throughout 2015. On pure speed however, they were not so far off.


Sorry but he was not a "de facto" #2 driver (this would imply that Verstappen had merited being the #1 driver by way of performing better).

Sainz was sometimes asked to let Max through. However, Max also was asked once or twice to let Sainz through. Basically the one that was driving faster but was behind for whatever reason, was ordered through in order to maximize the result for STR.

There was no real #1-#2 policy, Verstappen just was the better racer. Even if their ultimate pace wasn't far off (and I'm not sure I agree, in some cases there were big differences), Verstappen had higher highs and he was far more decisive when it came to overtaking.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:08 pm
Posts: 3767
mds wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
stevey wrote:
for me Sainz has impressed, I think RBR could of taken either and they both would of succeeded. Max is a step above in overtaking on Carlos but Carlos isn't sloppy either. I thought when on the track together they were evenly matched.


They were not. Max almost invariably had the better race pace.

Sainz was the de facto number 2 driver in favor of max when they were both together, Sainz always had to let max through and let the best strategy for him. Also he had far more problems than him throughout 2015. On pure speed however, they were not so far off.


Sorry but he was not a "de facto" #2 driver (this would imply that Verstappen had merited being the #1 driver by way of performing better).

Sainz was sometimes asked to let Max through. However, Max also was asked once or twice to let Sainz through. Basically the one that was driving faster but was behind for whatever reason, was ordered through in order to maximize the result for STR.

There was no real #1-#2 policy, Verstappen just was the better racer. Even if their ultimate pace wasn't far off (and I'm not sure I agree, in some cases there were big differences), Verstappen had higher highs and he was far more decisive when it came to overtaking.

Verstappen was their first choice above carlos, and when then raced together, usually things seemed to go max way in terms of strategy and also the number of reliability failures and gremlins happened mostly on carlos side (3 to 7)
They both had ups and downs in 2015 season, and looking at the results, they were much closer than the points standings suggest.
What you said is true that max had higher highs, and precisely in those highs finish 4th in both - Hungary and USA - Carlos had a reliability DNF in one, and the other he had to start from the back of the grid due to a qualy problem, and still finished 7th.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20581
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
stevey wrote:
for me Sainz has impressed, I think RBR could of taken either and they both would of succeeded. Max is a step above in overtaking on Carlos but Carlos isn't sloppy either. I thought when on the track together they were evenly matched.


They were not. Max almost invariably had the better race pace.

Sainz was the de facto number 2 driver in favor of max when they were both together, Sainz always had to let max through and let the best strategy for him. Also he had far more problems than him throughout 2015. On pure speed however, they were not so far off.


Sorry but he was not a "de facto" #2 driver (this would imply that Verstappen had merited being the #1 driver by way of performing better).

Sainz was sometimes asked to let Max through. However, Max also was asked once or twice to let Sainz through. Basically the one that was driving faster but was behind for whatever reason, was ordered through in order to maximize the result for STR.

There was no real #1-#2 policy, Verstappen just was the better racer. Even if their ultimate pace wasn't far off (and I'm not sure I agree, in some cases there were big differences), Verstappen had higher highs and he was far more decisive when it came to overtaking.

Verstappen was their first choice above carlos, and when then raced together, usually things seemed to go max way in terms of strategy and also the number of reliability failures and gremlins happened mostly on carlos side (3 to 7)
They both had ups and downs in 2015 season, and looking at the results, they were much closer than the points standings suggest.
What you said is true that max had higher highs, and precisely in those highs finish 4th in both - Hungary and USA - Carlos had a reliability DNF in one, and the other he had to start from the back of the grid due to a qualy problem, and still finished 7th.

Lewis had far more car problems than Nico last year, but i doubt many would call him the de facto #2.

I don't think that's a reason to identify driver favouritism, is what I'm saying


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:08 pm
Posts: 3767
Zoue wrote:
Lewis had far more car problems than Nico last year, but i doubt many would call him the de facto #2.

I don't think that's a reason to identify driver favouritism, is what I'm saying

For people who followed both of them closely its strange to say the least, that almost all the bad things happened to CSJr.
About Hamilton/Rosberg last year, well, I dont want to derail the thread but, hmnmmm..., let's say that the stars alligned to favor Nico, lets put it that way.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:21 am
Posts: 438
Covalent wrote:
Nico got the fastest lap in his first race (back when the fastest laps actually meant something).


In his second race he started from 3rd on the grid aaand that's pretty much it. I don't remember absolutely anything else from him that year other than ramming Webber at Interlagos.

_________________
I know what I'm talking about.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10593
nixxxon wrote:
Verstappen was their first choice above carlos


Doesn't mean a thing if they get a fair chance on track. Which they did, both received TO's to their advantage.

Quote:
They both had ups and downs in 2015 season, and looking at the results, they were much closer than the points standings suggest.
What you said is true that max had higher highs, and precisely in those highs finish 4th in both - Hungary and USA - Carlos had a reliability DNF in one, and the other he had to start from the back of the grid due to a qualy problem, and still finished 7th.


Verstappen also had more problems than just the three DNF's, mind you. And Verstappen was also unlucky at some highs - Australian GP, running sixth e.g. Good points too.

Point remains, his race pace was often clearly better than Sainz's, as were his overtakes. Sainz is a very good driver, had a very good rookie season, but they were not evenly matched as stevey stated.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:08 pm
Posts: 3767
mds wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Verstappen was their first choice above carlos


Doesn't mean a thing if they get a fair chance on track. Which they did, both received TO's to their advantage.

Quote:
They both had ups and downs in 2015 season, and looking at the results, they were much closer than the points standings suggest.
What you said is true that max had higher highs, and precisely in those highs finish 4th in both - Hungary and USA - Carlos had a reliability DNF in one, and the other he had to start from the back of the grid due to a qualy problem, and still finished 7th.


Verstappen also had more problems than just the three DNF's, mind you. And Verstappen was also unlucky at some highs - Australian GP, running sixth e.g. Good points too.

Point remains, his race pace was often clearly better than Sainz's, as were his overtakes. Sainz is a very good driver, had a very good rookie season, but they were not evenly matched as stevey stated.

I dont say so, the team said so... "when both run trouble-free they usually are very close"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mcdo wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
Verstappen may have the speed, but he's completely immature and giving him a 700+ bhp car at the age of 17 was a reckless thing on Red Bull's part.

I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing

I think you can question his immaturity though, obviously you wouldn't question his talent.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
Bigbazz wrote:
Mansell is the obvious choice. No idea why people say Hulk, he got a pole position in his first season... I'm fairly sure he impressed initially despite losing his job for a year.

The Hulk got quite badly beaten by Barrichello, generally speaking he was a bit disappointing.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
specdecible wrote:
Nico Rosberg, while he was never considered to be bad in his initial seasons no one was really considering him to be an actual championship contender until later in his career.

Yeah he had quite a poor rookie season.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mds wrote:
stevey wrote:
for me Sainz has impressed, I think RBR could of taken either and they both would of succeeded. Max is a step above in overtaking on Carlos but Carlos isn't sloppy either. I thought when on the track together they were evenly matched.


They were not. Max almost invariably had the better race pace.

On the topic of his maturity, he hasn't done anything that pointed to him being to immature to being put in F1. Maybe he has had a few issues with admitting guilt in certain run-ins with other drivers, and when receiving team orders, but if that's the case you can retire three quarters of the field as they've pretty much all done that at various ages.

What about his acts of vengeance on the track if he believes he has been wronged by someone, not to mention his methods of defending his position which a few crashes in the junior series may have ironed out given the appropriate time?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4276
Location: Michigan, USA
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
On the topic of his maturity, he hasn't done anything that pointed to him being to immature to being put in F1. Maybe he has had a few issues with admitting guilt in certain run-ins with other drivers, and when receiving team orders, but if that's the case you can retire three quarters of the field as they've pretty much all done that at various ages.

What about his acts of vengeance on the track if he believes he has been wronged by someone, not to mention his methods of defending his position which a few crashes in the junior series may have ironed out given the appropriate time?

:thumbup:

That's the sort of thing people are thinking of when they question his maturity on track. Spa 2016 would be a great example, over a whole race.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2017: Don't Ask| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
On the topic of his maturity, he hasn't done anything that pointed to him being to immature to being put in F1. Maybe he has had a few issues with admitting guilt in certain run-ins with other drivers, and when receiving team orders, but if that's the case you can retire three quarters of the field as they've pretty much all done that at various ages.

What about his acts of vengeance on the track if he believes he has been wronged by someone, not to mention his methods of defending his position which a few crashes in the junior series may have ironed out given the appropriate time?

:thumbup:

That's the sort of thing people are thinking of when they question his maturity on track. Spa 2016 would be a great example, over a whole race.

That was actually quite disgusting not just his driving but the way the stewards allowed him to get away with it, this sort of also questioned the need to protect the golden child, interesting that the Verstappen rule under braking has also now been ditched after it was considered to be dangerous for many years.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10593
nixxxon wrote:
mds wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Verstappen was their first choice above carlos


Doesn't mean a thing if they get a fair chance on track. Which they did, both received TO's to their advantage.

Quote:
They both had ups and downs in 2015 season, and looking at the results, they were much closer than the points standings suggest.
What you said is true that max had higher highs, and precisely in those highs finish 4th in both - Hungary and USA - Carlos had a reliability DNF in one, and the other he had to start from the back of the grid due to a qualy problem, and still finished 7th.


Verstappen also had more problems than just the three DNF's, mind you. And Verstappen was also unlucky at some highs - Australian GP, running sixth e.g. Good points too.

Point remains, his race pace was often clearly better than Sainz's, as were his overtakes. Sainz is a very good driver, had a very good rookie season, but they were not evenly matched as stevey stated.

I dont say so, the team said so... "when both run trouble-free they usually are very close"


The team has an interest in keeping both of their drivers in a good state of mind. Not publicly tearing down a driver is one of the things they usually do to ensure that.

Looking at the actual races, looking at their pace in races over the whole season, it paints a pretty clear picture. It's not a coincidence that Verstappen got the promotion to RBR and not Sainz.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Last edited by mds on Wed May 17, 2017 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10593
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
On the topic of his maturity, he hasn't done anything that pointed to him being to immature to being put in F1. Maybe he has had a few issues with admitting guilt in certain run-ins with other drivers, and when receiving team orders, but if that's the case you can retire three quarters of the field as they've pretty much all done that at various ages.

What about his acts of vengeance on the track if he believes he has been wronged by someone, not to mention his methods of defending his position which a few crashes in the junior series may have ironed out given the appropriate time?

:thumbup:

That's the sort of thing people are thinking of when they question his maturity on track. Spa 2016 would be a great example, over a whole race.


To both of you: how will you prove that that is age-related, when we have seen other far older drivers do questionable things on and next to the track? A 29 year old Senna took revenge after a whole year, an over 30 Senna punched someone because he was overtaken! Was he too immature to be in F1 then?

And those are just two things. Examples abound.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11999
I've not seen Verstappen do anything I haven't seen from far older drivers.

The Verstappen rule was scrapped because It was a ridiculous rule coming out of a knee jerk reaction. They've replaced it with something much more sensible.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:35 am
Posts: 923
Early days for Stroll, but for me neither him or Palmer are good enough for F1.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9538
Location: Ireland
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
Verstappen may have the speed, but he's completely immature and giving him a 700+ bhp car at the age of 17 was a reckless thing on Red Bull's part.

I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing

I think you can question his immaturity though, obviously you wouldn't question his talent.

His maturity, or lack thereof, was not enough of a concern to consider making him wait longer for his start in F1. His results have repeatedly validated Red Bull's faith in him

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
Verstappen may have the speed, but he's completely immature and giving him a 700+ bhp car at the age of 17 was a reckless thing on Red Bull's part.

I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing

I think you can question his immaturity though, obviously you wouldn't question his talent.

His maturity, or lack thereof, was not enough of a concern to consider making him wait longer for his start in F1. His results have repeatedly validated Red Bull's faith in him

I personally don't think that F1 should be a training ground for young drivers that is why you have the feeder categories, I take on board that even older drivers can act stupidly but as a rule with more experience also comes a wiser head.

Verstappen himself showed a childish immaturity with seeking out revenge on the race track, that's just not exceptable although like I said I will except that some drivers never seem to learn with age either.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10593
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
Verstappen may have the speed, but he's completely immature and giving him a 700+ bhp car at the age of 17 was a reckless thing on Red Bull's part.

I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing

I think you can question his immaturity though, obviously you wouldn't question his talent.

His maturity, or lack thereof, was not enough of a concern to consider making him wait longer for his start in F1. His results have repeatedly validated Red Bull's faith in him

I personally don't think that F1 should be a training ground for young drivers that is why you have the feeder categories, I take on board that even older drivers can act stupidly but as a rule with more experience also comes a wiser head.

Verstappen himself showed a childish immaturity with seeking out revenge on the race track, that's just not exceptable although like I said I will except that some drivers never seem to learn with age either.


Who says he'll learn with age? Senna didn't. Some others didn't either.

It's tunnel vision. Verstappen is young, he did something stupid, therefore this must have been because he's young. The same explanation can not be given for older drivers, evidently, so there it's just something in their character.

Verstappen has proven he merited his place in F1 from the go, and so that he wasn't too young. That's pretty much the end of it.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing

I think you can question his immaturity though, obviously you wouldn't question his talent.

His maturity, or lack thereof, was not enough of a concern to consider making him wait longer for his start in F1. His results have repeatedly validated Red Bull's faith in him

I personally don't think that F1 should be a training ground for young drivers that is why you have the feeder categories, I take on board that even older drivers can act stupidly but as a rule with more experience also comes a wiser head.

Verstappen himself showed a childish immaturity with seeking out revenge on the race track, that's just not exceptable although like I said I will except that some drivers never seem to learn with age either.


Who says he'll learn with age? Senna didn't. Some others didn't either.

It's tunnel vision. Verstappen is young, he did something stupid, therefore this must have been because he's young. The same explanation can not be given for older drivers, evidently, so there it's just something in their character.

Verstappen has proven he merited his place in F1 from the go, and so that he wasn't too young. That's pretty much the end of it.

No I disagree I think on several occasions he's shown himself to be young and reckless, I would expect Verstappen to improve a lot on this as he gets older and I repeat that F1 should not be a training ground for young drivers, there are feeder series for that.

Now if I look at Stroll I was very critical of a largely unproven 18 year old being able to buy a seat in F1, winning a junior category 3 rungs down from F1 doesn't cut it for me. My concerns were not just about him being good enough but that he might be a bit of a train wreck given some of the crazy driving he did in his F3 rookie season.

Now this year I've hardly criticised him really even though his performances have been poor, that's because in the races he's kept it clean and if anything has been an unfortunate victim, maybe having 3 years training in the junior series helped in some respect?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9538
Location: Ireland
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
Verstappen may have the speed, but he's completely immature and giving him a 700+ bhp car at the age of 17 was a reckless thing on Red Bull's part.

I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing

I think you can question his immaturity though, obviously you wouldn't question his talent.

His maturity, or lack thereof, was not enough of a concern to consider making him wait longer for his start in F1. His results have repeatedly validated Red Bull's faith in him

I personally don't think that F1 should be a training ground for young drivers that is why you have the feeder categories, I take on board that even older drivers can act stupidly but as a rule with more experience also comes a wiser head.

Verstappen himself showed a childish immaturity with seeking out revenge on the race track, that's just not exceptable although like I said I will except that some drivers never seem to learn with age either.

If a driver is capable of hopping into an F1 car and being competitive from the get go then I don't believe any more time in a feeder series is warranted. Button and Raikkonen did similar before him and their names are written into the F1 history books forever

Maturity matters little when you've won a GP in your 2nd season. Some of his defensive driving was dodgy last year but he's hardly out there playing bumper cars

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think any arguing over Verstappen's place in F1 is ridiculous. His results proved the naysayers wrong. Red Bull totally did the right thing

I think you can question his immaturity though, obviously you wouldn't question his talent.

His maturity, or lack thereof, was not enough of a concern to consider making him wait longer for his start in F1. His results have repeatedly validated Red Bull's faith in him

I personally don't think that F1 should be a training ground for young drivers that is why you have the feeder categories, I take on board that even older drivers can act stupidly but as a rule with more experience also comes a wiser head.

Verstappen himself showed a childish immaturity with seeking out revenge on the race track, that's just not exceptable although like I said I will except that some drivers never seem to learn with age either.

If a driver is capable of hopping into an F1 car and being competitive from the get go then I don't believe any more time in a feeder series is warranted. Button and Raikkonen did similar before him and their names are written into the F1 history books forever

Maturity matters little when you've won a GP in your 2nd season. Some of his defensive driving was dodgy last year but he's hardly out there playing bumper cars

Both Button and Kimi were in their early 20's.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 29, 2016 1:00 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Northern France
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Grosjean was bad, very bad in 2012, and as he proved in Russia, when he was trying to pass Palmer while being completely on the inside kerb, his spatial awareness is still horrible.
He was a terrible racer, and now he's just a bad racer.


To be honest, I struggle to find any unbiased argument supporting this. I remember Grosjean being quite fast in 2012 given his experience but lacking spatial awareness indeed. Things cleared out a lot in 2013 with a lot of solid results even though Lotus' budget was already quite tight. Moreover, in Russia, blame is shared with Palmer.

About talented drivers having not impress at the beginning of their career, I'll go with Bottas and Vergne. Different career trajectory but quite the same initial impressions before being positively surprised.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
Fantaribo wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Grosjean was bad, very bad in 2012, and as he proved in Russia, when he was trying to pass Palmer while being completely on the inside kerb, his spatial awareness is still horrible.
He was a terrible racer, and now he's just a bad racer.


To be honest, I struggle to find any unbiased argument supporting this. I remember Grosjean being quite fast in 2012 given his experience but lacking spatial awareness indeed. Things cleared out a lot in 2013 with a lot of solid results even though Lotus' budget was already quite tight. Moreover, in Russia, blame is shared with Palmer.

About talented drivers having not impress at the beginning of their career, I'll go with Bottas and Vergne. Different career trajectory but quite the same initial impressions before being positively surprised.

Bottas was in a rubbish car and did reasonably well in comparison to Maldonado, as for Vergne did he ever progress from being a rubbish qualifier?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9538
Location: Ireland
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think you can question his immaturity though, obviously you wouldn't question his talent.

His maturity, or lack thereof, was not enough of a concern to consider making him wait longer for his start in F1. His results have repeatedly validated Red Bull's faith in him

I personally don't think that F1 should be a training ground for young drivers that is why you have the feeder categories, I take on board that even older drivers can act stupidly but as a rule with more experience also comes a wiser head.

Verstappen himself showed a childish immaturity with seeking out revenge on the race track, that's just not exceptable although like I said I will except that some drivers never seem to learn with age either.

If a driver is capable of hopping into an F1 car and being competitive from the get go then I don't believe any more time in a feeder series is warranted. Button and Raikkonen did similar before him and their names are written into the F1 history books forever

Maturity matters little when you've won a GP in your 2nd season. Some of his defensive driving was dodgy last year but he's hardly out there playing bumper cars

Both Button and Kimi were in their early 20's.

Like that changes anything. Takuma Sato was even older

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 29, 2016 1:00 pm
Posts: 14
Location: Northern France
pokerman wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Grosjean was bad, very bad in 2012, and as he proved in Russia, when he was trying to pass Palmer while being completely on the inside kerb, his spatial awareness is still horrible.
He was a terrible racer, and now he's just a bad racer.


To be honest, I struggle to find any unbiased argument supporting this. I remember Grosjean being quite fast in 2012 given his experience but lacking spatial awareness indeed. Things cleared out a lot in 2013 with a lot of solid results even though Lotus' budget was already quite tight. Moreover, in Russia, blame is shared with Palmer.

About talented drivers having not impress at the beginning of their career, I'll go with Bottas and Vergne. Different career trajectory but quite the same initial impressions before being positively surprised.

Bottas was in a rubbish car and did reasonably well in comparison to Maldonado, as for Vergne did he ever progress from being a rubbish qualifier?


Bottas definitely did well, but I was not really impressed by his results (my reactions were basically 'meh'). Things changed for the best in the following years.

Vergne was on par with Ricciardo before being droped out, so ...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10593
pokerman wrote:
No I disagree I think on several occasions he's shown himself to be young and reckless, I would expect Verstappen to improve a lot on this as he gets older and I repeat that F1 should not be a training ground for young drivers, there are feeder series for that.


F1 was no training ground for Verstappen. He was up there immediately. Sainz had had years of training and participated in almost 150 feeder series races from F BMW all the way up to FR3.5, he was well trained and fully ready, and Max was better. There is no ground for this "using F1 as a training ground" argument, it's right as a general principle but not when applied to Verstappen.

He hasn't shown himself young, he IS young. And about the reckless part... well, I now just repeat what I said about far older and more experienced drivers? Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
His maturity, or lack thereof, was not enough of a concern to consider making him wait longer for his start in F1. His results have repeatedly validated Red Bull's faith in him

I personally don't think that F1 should be a training ground for young drivers that is why you have the feeder categories, I take on board that even older drivers can act stupidly but as a rule with more experience also comes a wiser head.

Verstappen himself showed a childish immaturity with seeking out revenge on the race track, that's just not exceptable although like I said I will except that some drivers never seem to learn with age either.

If a driver is capable of hopping into an F1 car and being competitive from the get go then I don't believe any more time in a feeder series is warranted. Button and Raikkonen did similar before him and their names are written into the F1 history books forever

Maturity matters little when you've won a GP in your 2nd season. Some of his defensive driving was dodgy last year but he's hardly out there playing bumper cars

Both Button and Kimi were in their early 20's.

Like that changes anything. Takuma Sato was even older

They were more mature than Verstappen.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:35 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
Fantaribo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fantaribo wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Grosjean was bad, very bad in 2012, and as he proved in Russia, when he was trying to pass Palmer while being completely on the inside kerb, his spatial awareness is still horrible.
He was a terrible racer, and now he's just a bad racer.


To be honest, I struggle to find any unbiased argument supporting this. I remember Grosjean being quite fast in 2012 given his experience but lacking spatial awareness indeed. Things cleared out a lot in 2013 with a lot of solid results even though Lotus' budget was already quite tight. Moreover, in Russia, blame is shared with Palmer.

About talented drivers having not impress at the beginning of their career, I'll go with Bottas and Vergne. Different career trajectory but quite the same initial impressions before being positively surprised.

Bottas was in a rubbish car and did reasonably well in comparison to Maldonado, as for Vergne did he ever progress from being a rubbish qualifier?


Bottas definitely did well, but I was not really impressed by his results (my reactions were basically 'meh'). Things changed for the best in the following years.

Vergne was on par with Ricciardo before being droped out, so ...

There is not that much you can do in a crap car.

Ricciardo destroyed Vergne in qualifying, you can not afford to be a poor qualifier in F1.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I disagree I think on several occasions he's shown himself to be young and reckless, I would expect Verstappen to improve a lot on this as he gets older and I repeat that F1 should not be a training ground for young drivers, there are feeder series for that.


F1 was no training ground for Verstappen. He was up there immediately. Sainz had had years of training and participated in almost 150 feeder series races from F BMW all the way up to FR3.5, he was well trained and fully ready, and Max was better. There is no ground for this "using F1 as a training ground" argument, it's right as a general principle but not when applied to Verstappen.

He hasn't shown himself young, he IS young. And about the reckless part... well, I now just repeat what I said about far older and more experienced drivers? Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

I'm not talking about speed or talent I'm talking about young kids being thrown into F1 without the necessary experience and basically being dangerous.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10593
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I disagree I think on several occasions he's shown himself to be young and reckless, I would expect Verstappen to improve a lot on this as he gets older and I repeat that F1 should not be a training ground for young drivers, there are feeder series for that.


F1 was no training ground for Verstappen. He was up there immediately. Sainz had had years of training and participated in almost 150 feeder series races from F BMW all the way up to FR3.5, he was well trained and fully ready, and Max was better. There is no ground for this "using F1 as a training ground" argument, it's right as a general principle but not when applied to Verstappen.

He hasn't shown himself young, he IS young. And about the reckless part... well, I now just repeat what I said about far older and more experienced drivers? Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

I'm not talking about speed or talent I'm talking about young kids being thrown into F1 without the necessary experience and basically being dangerous.


Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

Just so you know, this will be my standard answer for the rest of this discussion until it gets answered.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4276
Location: Michigan, USA
mds wrote:
Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

Just so you know, this will be my standard answer for the rest of this discussion until it gets answered.

You do realize that's impossible, right? Even if it was clearly true, there's no way to prove it.

But okay, how about this. His outbursts and dangerous driving have gotten less frequent as he's gotten older, which suggests it is either age or experience related.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2017: Don't Ask| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 10593
Exediron wrote:
You do realize that's impossible, right? Even if it was clearly true, there's no way to prove it.


Of course I do, which is exactly why I'm asking: to make pokerman realize this. And that it works both ways. So I would propose to not talk about his behaviour as being definitely age-related and just see it as behaviour we've seen from a lot of other drivers at various ages as well. With the bottom line that he has earned a definite place in F1 and confirmed that from the very beginning.

Quote:
But okay, how about this. His outbursts and dangerous driving have gotten less frequent as he's gotten older, which suggests it is either age or experience related.


Alternative take: moving from STR to RBR meant a change from midfield to frontrunning team, where the focus is different - trying to prove yourself in a midfield car is not the same as trying to go for second in the WCC. We saw that pretty much immediately, Max was not too willing to follow TO's at STR but as soon as he got into RBR he followed suit whenever they told him to.
And then this year he's been pretty much alone on track all the time, so no real opportunities to show anything other than lapping.

_________________
Supporting all drivers with surnames starting with "V".

Proud member of the "It's Toro Rosso, not Torro Rosso" action committee.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 9:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9538
Location: Ireland
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I personally don't think that F1 should be a training ground for young drivers that is why you have the feeder categories, I take on board that even older drivers can act stupidly but as a rule with more experience also comes a wiser head.

Verstappen himself showed a childish immaturity with seeking out revenge on the race track, that's just not exceptable although like I said I will except that some drivers never seem to learn with age either.

If a driver is capable of hopping into an F1 car and being competitive from the get go then I don't believe any more time in a feeder series is warranted. Button and Raikkonen did similar before him and their names are written into the F1 history books forever

Maturity matters little when you've won a GP in your 2nd season. Some of his defensive driving was dodgy last year but he's hardly out there playing bumper cars

Both Button and Kimi were in their early 20's.

Like that changes anything. Takuma Sato was even older

They were more mature than Verstappen.

It doesn't change a thing. As I've pointed out Sato was older again and he quickly picked a reputation for crashes and accidents - something that the "immature" Verstappen isn't known for

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11999
We've seen so many drivers that are reckless when they first come into F1. Drivers of a variety of ages. I don't think on Verstappen's case you can write it down to age just because he is young. It logically doesn't stack up.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I disagree I think on several occasions he's shown himself to be young and reckless, I would expect Verstappen to improve a lot on this as he gets older and I repeat that F1 should not be a training ground for young drivers, there are feeder series for that.


F1 was no training ground for Verstappen. He was up there immediately. Sainz had had years of training and participated in almost 150 feeder series races from F BMW all the way up to FR3.5, he was well trained and fully ready, and Max was better. There is no ground for this "using F1 as a training ground" argument, it's right as a general principle but not when applied to Verstappen.

He hasn't shown himself young, he IS young. And about the reckless part... well, I now just repeat what I said about far older and more experienced drivers? Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

I'm not talking about speed or talent I'm talking about young kids being thrown into F1 without the necessary experience and basically being dangerous.


Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

Just so you know, this will be my standard answer for the rest of this discussion until it gets answered.

Apart from when Senna crashed out Prost I don't remember him seeking out retribution for something that happened earlier in a race?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
If a driver is capable of hopping into an F1 car and being competitive from the get go then I don't believe any more time in a feeder series is warranted. Button and Raikkonen did similar before him and their names are written into the F1 history books forever

Maturity matters little when you've won a GP in your 2nd season. Some of his defensive driving was dodgy last year but he's hardly out there playing bumper cars

Both Button and Kimi were in their early 20's.

Like that changes anything. Takuma Sato was even older

They were more mature than Verstappen.

It doesn't change a thing. As I've pointed out Sato was older again and he quickly picked a reputation for crashes and accidents - something that the "immature" Verstappen isn't known for

This is going more down the line of some drivers basically not being good enough for F1, even with the backing of Honda there was only so long they could keep Sato in F1, let's not forget that they dropped him from their own F1 team.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23004
mikeyg123 wrote:
We've seen so many drivers that are reckless when they first come into F1. Drivers of a variety of ages. I don't think on Verstappen's case you can write it down to age just because he is young. It logically doesn't stack up.

I think age plays a part in the maturity and experience of a person, also I would give you that some people mature more quickly than others, in Verstappen's case some of the things he did last year very much childish.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11999
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
We've seen so many drivers that are reckless when they first come into F1. Drivers of a variety of ages. I don't think on Verstappen's case you can write it down to age just because he is young. It logically doesn't stack up.

I think age plays a part in the maturity and experience of a person, also I would give you that some people mature more quickly than others, in Verstappen's case some of the things he did last year very much childish.


But if you see older people do it as well how can you possibly attribute it to being too young with any confidence? That's where the logic falls down. I agree it might be due to age in his case but nobody can know that so nobody can know if he is/was too young.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Jenson's Understeer, Option or Prime, PiMuRho and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group