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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I disagree I think on several occasions he's shown himself to be young and reckless, I would expect Verstappen to improve a lot on this as he gets older and I repeat that F1 should not be a training ground for young drivers, there are feeder series for that.


F1 was no training ground for Verstappen. He was up there immediately. Sainz had had years of training and participated in almost 150 feeder series races from F BMW all the way up to FR3.5, he was well trained and fully ready, and Max was better. There is no ground for this "using F1 as a training ground" argument, it's right as a general principle but not when applied to Verstappen.

He hasn't shown himself young, he IS young. And about the reckless part... well, I now just repeat what I said about far older and more experienced drivers? Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

I'm not talking about speed or talent I'm talking about young kids being thrown into F1 without the necessary experience and basically being dangerous.


Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

Just so you know, this will be my standard answer for the rest of this discussion until it gets answered.

Apart from when Senna crashed out Prost I don't remember him seeking out retribution for something that happened earlier in a race?


Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Both Button and Kimi were in their early 20's.

Like that changes anything. Takuma Sato was even older

They were more mature than Verstappen.

It doesn't change a thing. As I've pointed out Sato was older again and he quickly picked a reputation for crashes and accidents - something that the "immature" Verstappen isn't known for

This is going more down the line of some drivers basically not being good enough for F1, even with the backing of Honda there was only so long they could keep Sato in F1, let's not forget that they dropped him from their own F1 team.

Not even close to being on topic but Super Aguri existed because of Honda feeling the need to keep Sato in F1

In his early years Jenson Button was known for being a "playboy" that partied too much and who had bought into his own hype. His boss labelled him a "paracarro" (or "concrete bollard") and dropped him from Renault as Button's lifestyle was affecting his results on track.

When he wasn't busy making a show of himself in strip clubs, Kimi Raikkonen could be found outside nightclubs asleep on the ground cuddling inflatable dolphins. Just the kind of image that his boss Ron Dennis loved to see being portrayed for all to see.

Are you telling me those guys were more mature than Max Verstappen?

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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:02 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
F1 was no training ground for Verstappen. He was up there immediately. Sainz had had years of training and participated in almost 150 feeder series races from F BMW all the way up to FR3.5, he was well trained and fully ready, and Max was better. There is no ground for this "using F1 as a training ground" argument, it's right as a general principle but not when applied to Verstappen.

He hasn't shown himself young, he IS young. And about the reckless part... well, I now just repeat what I said about far older and more experienced drivers? Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

I'm not talking about speed or talent I'm talking about young kids being thrown into F1 without the necessary experience and basically being dangerous.


Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

Just so you know, this will be my standard answer for the rest of this discussion until it gets answered.

Apart from when Senna crashed out Prost I don't remember him seeking out retribution for something that happened earlier in a race?


Prove me how it was age for Verstappen and something else for Senna.

I don't agree Verstappen was too young for F1, but you might argue that Senna's actions were more cynical than immature. I do think there is a case to say Max' actions against Kimi were more a case of immaturity, where red mist clouded judgement, whereas Senna's appeared pre-meditated.

That said, you could also argue that Hamilton telling Ron to "go swivel," or words to that effect, in his first season was immature. Same with the "monkeys at the back" comment. As was Alonso, already a two-times WDC, holding Hamilton up in the pits at Hungary (and pretty much all the antics between those two drivers that year). And these are two of the very best drivers F1 has to offer, then and now.

One action doesn't mean Max wasn't ready. He's already proven to be an exciting driver and IMO his presence has only been good for F1. Same as the two mentioned above. In an adrenaline-fuelled sport it's inevitable that emotions will occasionally run high.


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:49 am 
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I was/am critical of Verstappen for some of the actions and for his reasons for them, but age doesn't come into it. As we have seen with others, respect for another driver is not something they particularly pick up in the lower classes. And some of the drivers only become brutes in F1.

Verstappen does remind me a bit of Senna, but I believe Max to have been far better prepared than Ayrton was. Simulators may be the foundation of that level of preparedness.

If there is a factor that can drive a talented driver to actions we saw from Senna, Schumacher and now from Max, it is an inflated belief in themselves. Once that goes over a safe level, mayhem.
I do believe, however, that F1's toing and froing with stewarding leads to drivers not caring about respect for rules or competitors much anymore. And there the sport suffers.


Back to the subject; did Prost impress initially? I know Lauda didn't, but both of these drivers' early seasons were long before I was able to watch regularly.

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