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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue I get the impression you might not be a Hamilton fan ? :lol:

It's nothing to do with Hamilton. It's to do with a small but extremely vocal section of his supporters who cannot accept anything other than that their hero must have been fighting against the odds on any given moment. Every. Single. Time. This weekend is a hilarious example. Lewis performed a straightforward DRS pass with a strong tyre advantage. Job well done. For anybody else there wouldn't have been anything other than a brief comment about it. But for Lewis it has to be bigged up into something it isn't. It's either incredible, or he worked miracles with a slower car, etc. He can't possible be seen to be having even the smallest advantage, ever. It always has to be an uphill battle, even when it's clearly anything but. It's Mansell by proxy

I think you need to look in the mirror, it's you who keeps telling us how inferior the Ferrari is to big up Vettel, even going against what the experts have to say.

I thought I was losing my mind for a second. I distinctly recall all of the people he's arguing with saying that the cars are too closely matched to call an advantage while he proclaimed with certainty that the Mercedes was faster.

I also distinctly remember each of us criticizing Hamilton for his performance in Russia while Zoue claims that there has been an irrational bias (meanwhile he hastens to discredit or explain away Hamilton's every success and paint a picture of Vettel as racing at a handicap).

He seems to be projecting his own pattern of behavior onto others.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:28 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
What you're doing is removing your credibility as a commentator. If you assess that situation as Hamilton's fault, you simply don't understand racing very well. I can go find links to dozens of credible articles and videos from various experts, pundits, etc. that all agree that Rosberg was to blame for the incident. I challenge you to find a single credible source saying the opposite.

Sigh, please read it properly. The accusation was that Rosberg targeted Lewis, while what actually happened was that Lewis turned in while Rosberg was trying to force him wide, which is somewhat different. I'm addressing the inaccurate comment only

Hamilton had to turn so he actually stayed on the track, Rosberg decided he wasn't going to turn until Hamilton was off the track, he also deliberately prevented Hamilton from rejoining the track, Hamilton had to run onto the grass to take avoiding action much like he had to do in Barcelona as well but unfortunately he lost control of his car so abrupt was the avoiding action he had to take.


Rosberg said he was choosing his line round the corner. We don't know at what point he was going to turn, because Hamilton turned into him before he initiated his turn. That doesn't exclude what you say, but it illustrates that there are other explanations.
Hamilton always had the option of waiting until Rosberg turned - which would have avoided the contact.

It's the responsibility of a driver who is off the track to make a safe return to the track. It's not the responsibility of drivers on the track to assist him.

Hamilton's car was in front of Rosberg's by a car length until they braked for the corner, Rosberg closed this down to half a car length by basically not slowing down as much, running past the corner and not turning, the car in front has a right to the corner, the car on the inside can't simply mow into whatever car is in front of him because he believes he has the right to the corner.

You are taking what Rosberg said as some kind of driving gospel but he got it wrong, the car on the inside can take the line he wants on corner exit provided he is at least level but Rosberg was behind all the time plus it wasn't even the exit it was the entry to the corner.

I made reference to returning to the track because it's normally a driver reflex to allow a car to return to the track for fear of being hit, Rosberg simply didn't care he had the points lead after all.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:45 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue I get the impression you might not be a Hamilton fan ? :lol:

It's nothing to do with Hamilton. It's to do with a small but extremely vocal section of his supporters who cannot accept anything other than that their hero must have been fighting against the odds on any given moment. Every. Single. Time. This weekend is a hilarious example. Lewis performed a straightforward DRS pass with a strong tyre advantage. Job well done. For anybody else there wouldn't have been anything other than a brief comment about it. But for Lewis it has to be bigged up into something it isn't. It's either incredible, or he worked miracles with a slower car, etc. He can't possible be seen to be having even the smallest advantage, ever. It always has to be an uphill battle, even when it's clearly anything but. It's Mansell by proxy

I think you need to look in the mirror, it's you who keeps telling us how inferior the Ferrari is to big up Vettel, even going against what the experts have to say.

I thought I was losing my mind for a second. I distinctly recall all of the people he's arguing with saying that the cars are too closely matched to call an advantage while he proclaimed with certainty that the Mercedes was faster.

I also distinctly remember each of us criticizing Hamilton for his performance in Russia while Zoue claims that there has been an irrational bias (meanwhile he hastens to discredit or explain away Hamilton's every success and paint a picture of Vettel as racing at a handicap).

He seems to be projecting his own pattern of behavior onto others.


Then I your memory may be failing you a bit. As some people (not you from memory, your posts are normally well balanced!) did point to Hamilton having overheating problems as why his performance was bad in Russia (the same problem that Bottas and Vettel had in the race). I remember one post saying that it was the car that couldn't be set up properly and that it was amazing to manage and bring the car 4th... And another that the team was also responsible for not finding what was wrong with balancing the car. So no, not each of us criticized Hamilton for his performance in Russia; he was third best driver voted in that race in the forum!

For some people it is clear that their favorite driver cannot be wrong.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:46 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue I get the impression you might not be a Hamilton fan ? :lol:

It's nothing to do with Hamilton. It's to do with a small but extremely vocal section of his supporters who cannot accept anything other than that their hero must have been fighting against the odds on any given moment. Every. Single. Time. This weekend is a hilarious example. Lewis performed a straightforward DRS pass with a strong tyre advantage. Job well done. For anybody else there wouldn't have been anything other than a brief comment about it. But for Lewis it has to be bigged up into something it isn't. It's either incredible, or he worked miracles with a slower car, etc. He can't possible be seen to be having even the smallest advantage, ever. It always has to be an uphill battle, even when it's clearly anything but. It's Mansell by proxy

I think you need to look in the mirror, it's you who keeps telling us how inferior the Ferrari is to big up Vettel, even going against what the experts have to say.

I thought I was losing my mind for a second. I distinctly recall all of the people he's arguing with saying that the cars are too closely matched to call an advantage while he proclaimed with certainty that the Mercedes was faster.

I also distinctly remember each of us criticizing Hamilton for his performance in Russia while Zoue claims that there has been an irrational bias (meanwhile he hastens to discredit or explain away Hamilton's every success and paint a picture of Vettel as racing at a handicap).

He seems to be projecting his own pattern of behavior onto others.

I've said I believe the Mercedes still has an advantage, yes. Most, if not all, the people who have queried this with me have been Hamilton supporters. 'Nuff said


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue I get the impression you might not be a Hamilton fan ? :lol:

It's nothing to do with Hamilton. It's to do with a small but extremely vocal section of his supporters who cannot accept anything other than that their hero must have been fighting against the odds on any given moment. Every. Single. Time. This weekend is a hilarious example. Lewis performed a straightforward DRS pass with a strong tyre advantage. Job well done. For anybody else there wouldn't have been anything other than a brief comment about it. But for Lewis it has to be bigged up into something it isn't. It's either incredible, or he worked miracles with a slower car, etc. He can't possible be seen to be having even the smallest advantage, ever. It always has to be an uphill battle, even when it's clearly anything but. It's Mansell by proxy

I think you need to look in the mirror, it's you who keeps telling us how inferior the Ferrari is to big up Vettel, even going against what the experts have to say.

When the evidence of my eyes tells me that Hamilton caught and passed Vettel before turning in, while Vettel was still alongside Bottas when turning in for his overtake, I don't need the Skypad to tell me that Hamilton had an easier time of it. Hamilton made a good, clean overtake, but as I've said before there was nothing special about it. That's not the same as saying it was bad, either.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/05/13/2 ... -analysis/
So the actual reality of how fast the cars were down the straight doesn't mean anything to you then? Your "eyes" know more accurately how fast the cars were than the actual speed traps I assume? It's good to know I'm speaking with someone who has no respect for fact or reality. Unfortunately this type of person has become quite common these days...

Wasn't aware they overtook each other in qualifying...

Whats that got to do with which car was actually faster in a straight line, again the experts are wrong and you are right.

No, because the quote above is about qualifying. Please read

Lewis passed Vettel before turning into the corner. Vettel was alongside Bottas when both turned into the corner. This much you can see with the naked eye. So Lewis' pass was more straightforward because he breezed by the Ferrari, whereas Vettel didn't have that speed advantage and had to complete the move going into the turn itself.

Hamilton had a bigger speed advantage because he carried more speed going onto the straight so he had more of a natural tow coupled with the DRS tow, how can you disassociate straight line speeds in qualifying to that in the race when the cars go into parc ferme after qualifying?

er, engine turned up for qualifying but down during the race? Is this really a question anyone with any knowledge of F1 should be asking?


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
More closely than the Ferrari?

It's not possible?

I'm not saying it's not possible but you seemingly always know which car is faster whether on a straight or in the race.

Now having us both read more, apparently Mercedes have concentrated on making the car more race friendly but at the expense of straight line speed, to the affect that expert analysis from 2 sources have said that the Ferrari was faster in a straight line at Barcelona, I believe 1 source even said that the Ferrari was the faster race car?

However you want to believe that the Ferrari was inferior in all aspects and it's the same thing over and over, credit Vettel, discredit Hamilton, and to your credit you are always quite open about this in all the DOTD polls.

Well it wasn't me that said anything about Hamilton being able to follow Vettel more closely onto the pit straight, so think you have your wires crossed.

I was only responding to your usual sarcastic comment which puts 2+2 together and comes up with 5. You do this a lot. My point above is there is more than one way to interpret what the poster said, but you always choose the path of trying to be snide about it to try to discredit other points of view. There's no need

There's actually a general belief now that is exactly what happened, Hamilton got a better exit onto the pit straight which enabled an easier DRS pass.

There is more than one interpretation seems to be your version of arguing that black is white, how can you still argue that the Mercedes was faster than the Ferrari on the straight?

Nice deflection on the sarcasm thing, but doesn't change it


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What you're doing is removing your credibility as a commentator. If you assess that situation as Hamilton's fault, you simply don't understand racing very well. I can go find links to dozens of credible articles and videos from various experts, pundits, etc. that all agree that Rosberg was to blame for the incident. I challenge you to find a single credible source saying the opposite.

Sigh, please read it properly. The accusation was that Rosberg targeted Lewis, while what actually happened was that Lewis turned in while Rosberg was trying to force him wide, which is somewhat different. I'm addressing the inaccurate comment only

Hamilton had to turn so he actually stayed on the track, Rosberg decided he wasn't going to turn until Hamilton was off the track, he also deliberately prevented Hamilton from rejoining the track, Hamilton had to run onto the grass to take avoiding action much like he had to do in Barcelona as well but unfortunately he lost control of his car so abrupt was the avoiding action he had to take.

which is different to saying he targeted him, He tried to run him off the road, sure, and left him nowhere to go, but it is factually accurate to say that Lewis turned into Rosberg, not the other war round

If you are aiming for the car in front rather than the corner itself then that is targeting the car, Hamilton said that he didn't know exactly were Rosberg's car was just that he left plenty of room for both cars to negotiate the corner by basically running to the very edge of the track and lets not forget that Hamilton's car was in front, Rosberg had no interest in both cars negotiating the corner, he was passed the apex of the corner with his wheels pointed nearly 90 degrees to the direction of the corner and you apportion the blame on Hamilton?

Ah, I see what's happened. Try to wipe the red mist from your eyes at the thought of blame being apportioned (it wasn't) and please read the above. Slowly. At no point was Rosberg's steering wheel pointing at Hamilton. Therefore, he could not have been targeting him. I'm not sure what other language you'd like it written in but it seems like plain English to me.

Rosberg left Lewis nowhere to go, which is a different kettle of fish, but he did not target him, as per your earlier, inaccurate, claim


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Posts: 23901
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue I get the impression you might not be a Hamilton fan ? :lol:

It's nothing to do with Hamilton. It's to do with a small but extremely vocal section of his supporters who cannot accept anything other than that their hero must have been fighting against the odds on any given moment. Every. Single. Time. This weekend is a hilarious example. Lewis performed a straightforward DRS pass with a strong tyre advantage. Job well done. For anybody else there wouldn't have been anything other than a brief comment about it. But for Lewis it has to be bigged up into something it isn't. It's either incredible, or he worked miracles with a slower car, etc. He can't possible be seen to be having even the smallest advantage, ever. It always has to be an uphill battle, even when it's clearly anything but. It's Mansell by proxy

I think you need to look in the mirror, it's you who keeps telling us how inferior the Ferrari is to big up Vettel, even going against what the experts have to say.

I thought I was losing my mind for a second. I distinctly recall all of the people he's arguing with saying that the cars are too closely matched to call an advantage while he proclaimed with certainty that the Mercedes was faster.

I also distinctly remember each of us criticizing Hamilton for his performance in Russia while Zoue claims that there has been an irrational bias (meanwhile he hastens to discredit or explain away Hamilton's every success and paint a picture of Vettel as racing at a handicap).

He seems to be projecting his own pattern of behavior onto others.

I've said I believe the Mercedes still has an advantage, yes. Most, if not all, the people who have queried this with me have been Hamilton supporters. 'Nuff said

You list expert pundits as being Hamilton supporters?

What you say is gospel and not to be challenged and who exactly do you expect to challenge you, Hamilton detractors?

I read on other forums Ferrari fans saying that the Ferrari is the best car but then again they might not be Vettel fans as such.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's nothing to do with Hamilton. It's to do with a small but extremely vocal section of his supporters who cannot accept anything other than that their hero must have been fighting against the odds on any given moment. Every. Single. Time. This weekend is a hilarious example. Lewis performed a straightforward DRS pass with a strong tyre advantage. Job well done. For anybody else there wouldn't have been anything other than a brief comment about it. But for Lewis it has to be bigged up into something it isn't. It's either incredible, or he worked miracles with a slower car, etc. He can't possible be seen to be having even the smallest advantage, ever. It always has to be an uphill battle, even when it's clearly anything but. It's Mansell by proxy

I think you need to look in the mirror, it's you who keeps telling us how inferior the Ferrari is to big up Vettel, even going against what the experts have to say.

I thought I was losing my mind for a second. I distinctly recall all of the people he's arguing with saying that the cars are too closely matched to call an advantage while he proclaimed with certainty that the Mercedes was faster.

I also distinctly remember each of us criticizing Hamilton for his performance in Russia while Zoue claims that there has been an irrational bias (meanwhile he hastens to discredit or explain away Hamilton's every success and paint a picture of Vettel as racing at a handicap).

He seems to be projecting his own pattern of behavior onto others.

I've said I believe the Mercedes still has an advantage, yes. Most, if not all, the people who have queried this with me have been Hamilton supporters. 'Nuff said

You list expert pundits as being Hamilton supporters?

What you say is gospel and not to be challenged and who exactly do you expect to challenge you, Hamilton detractors?

I read on other forums Ferrari fans saying that the Ferrari is the best car but then again they might not be Vettel fans as such.

I would certainly say some of the pundits are, yes. Or I guess you missed the SKY thread where people were discussing that?


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Andy2402 wrote:
Zoue I get the impression you might not be a Hamilton fan ? :lol:

It's nothing to do with Hamilton. It's to do with a small but extremely vocal section of his supporters who cannot accept anything other than that their hero must have been fighting against the odds on any given moment. Every. Single. Time. This weekend is a hilarious example. Lewis performed a straightforward DRS pass with a strong tyre advantage. Job well done. For anybody else there wouldn't have been anything other than a brief comment about it. But for Lewis it has to be bigged up into something it isn't. It's either incredible, or he worked miracles with a slower car, etc. He can't possible be seen to be having even the smallest advantage, ever. It always has to be an uphill battle, even when it's clearly anything but. It's Mansell by proxy

I think you need to look in the mirror, it's you who keeps telling us how inferior the Ferrari is to big up Vettel, even going against what the experts have to say.

When the evidence of my eyes tells me that Hamilton caught and passed Vettel before turning in, while Vettel was still alongside Bottas when turning in for his overtake, I don't need the Skypad to tell me that Hamilton had an easier time of it. Hamilton made a good, clean overtake, but as I've said before there was nothing special about it. That's not the same as saying it was bad, either.

Hamilton's pass was easier because he had a better exit on to the straight but of course you would credit that to the Mercedes car itself?

How can the Ferrari do the same lap times but be so much inferior in the corners and on the straights, this totally baffles me.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Wasn't aware they overtook each other in qualifying...

Whats that got to do with which car was actually faster in a straight line, again the experts are wrong and you are right.

No, because the quote above is about qualifying. Please read

Lewis passed Vettel before turning into the corner. Vettel was alongside Bottas when both turned into the corner. This much you can see with the naked eye. So Lewis' pass was more straightforward because he breezed by the Ferrari, whereas Vettel didn't have that speed advantage and had to complete the move going into the turn itself.

Hamilton had a bigger speed advantage because he carried more speed going onto the straight so he had more of a natural tow coupled with the DRS tow, how can you disassociate straight line speeds in qualifying to that in the race when the cars go into parc ferme after qualifying?

er, engine turned up for qualifying but down during the race? Is this really a question anyone with any knowledge of F1 should be asking?

So what happened to this magically qualifying mode that Mercedes have which you are always reminding us about that always makes the Mercedes faster than the Ferrari in qualifying, does it only work in the corners and runs out of puff on the straights?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Posts: 23901
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's not possible?

I'm not saying it's not possible but you seemingly always know which car is faster whether on a straight or in the race.

Now having us both read more, apparently Mercedes have concentrated on making the car more race friendly but at the expense of straight line speed, to the affect that expert analysis from 2 sources have said that the Ferrari was faster in a straight line at Barcelona, I believe 1 source even said that the Ferrari was the faster race car?

However you want to believe that the Ferrari was inferior in all aspects and it's the same thing over and over, credit Vettel, discredit Hamilton, and to your credit you are always quite open about this in all the DOTD polls.

Well it wasn't me that said anything about Hamilton being able to follow Vettel more closely onto the pit straight, so think you have your wires crossed.

I was only responding to your usual sarcastic comment which puts 2+2 together and comes up with 5. You do this a lot. My point above is there is more than one way to interpret what the poster said, but you always choose the path of trying to be snide about it to try to discredit other points of view. There's no need

There's actually a general belief now that is exactly what happened, Hamilton got a better exit onto the pit straight which enabled an easier DRS pass.

There is more than one interpretation seems to be your version of arguing that black is white, how can you still argue that the Mercedes was faster than the Ferrari on the straight?

Nice deflection on the sarcasm thing, but doesn't change it

Doesn't change what, it doesn't change the fact that actual factual evidence has no home in what you believe to be true?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Whats that got to do with which car was actually faster in a straight line, again the experts are wrong and you are right.

No, because the quote above is about qualifying. Please read

Lewis passed Vettel before turning into the corner. Vettel was alongside Bottas when both turned into the corner. This much you can see with the naked eye. So Lewis' pass was more straightforward because he breezed by the Ferrari, whereas Vettel didn't have that speed advantage and had to complete the move going into the turn itself.

Hamilton had a bigger speed advantage because he carried more speed going onto the straight so he had more of a natural tow coupled with the DRS tow, how can you disassociate straight line speeds in qualifying to that in the race when the cars go into parc ferme after qualifying?

er, engine turned up for qualifying but down during the race? Is this really a question anyone with any knowledge of F1 should be asking?

So what happened to this magically qualifying mode that Mercedes have which you are always reminding us about that always makes the Mercedes faster than the Ferrari in qualifying, does it only work in the corners and runs out of puff on the straights?

Well, I think you're the one that reminded us now, no?

I'm sure you have insider info you're willing to share where the Mercedes and Ferrari engineers agree to each turn their engines down by the exact same percentage each race after qualifying, but in the absence of that I'm assuming that things aren't quite so linear. I always thought the cars had more than two different modes, but perhaps you can educate me otherwise?


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Sigh, please read it properly. The accusation was that Rosberg targeted Lewis, while what actually happened was that Lewis turned in while Rosberg was trying to force him wide, which is somewhat different. I'm addressing the inaccurate comment only

Hamilton had to turn so he actually stayed on the track, Rosberg decided he wasn't going to turn until Hamilton was off the track, he also deliberately prevented Hamilton from rejoining the track, Hamilton had to run onto the grass to take avoiding action much like he had to do in Barcelona as well but unfortunately he lost control of his car so abrupt was the avoiding action he had to take.

which is different to saying he targeted him, He tried to run him off the road, sure, and left him nowhere to go, but it is factually accurate to say that Lewis turned into Rosberg, not the other war round

If you are aiming for the car in front rather than the corner itself then that is targeting the car, Hamilton said that he didn't know exactly were Rosberg's car was just that he left plenty of room for both cars to negotiate the corner by basically running to the very edge of the track and lets not forget that Hamilton's car was in front, Rosberg had no interest in both cars negotiating the corner, he was passed the apex of the corner with his wheels pointed nearly 90 degrees to the direction of the corner and you apportion the blame on Hamilton?

Ah, I see what's happened. Try to wipe the red mist from your eyes at the thought of blame being apportioned (it wasn't) and please read the above. Slowly. At no point was Rosberg's steering wheel pointing at Hamilton. Therefore, he could not have been targeting him. I'm not sure what other language you'd like it written in but it seems like plain English to me.

Rosberg left Lewis nowhere to go, which is a different kettle of fish, but he did not target him, as per your earlier, inaccurate, claim

Rosberg was looking at Hamilton's car rather than the corner itself which he managed to miss by a substantial margin, so yes he was targeting Hamilton's car.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Posts: 21003
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not saying it's not possible but you seemingly always know which car is faster whether on a straight or in the race.

Now having us both read more, apparently Mercedes have concentrated on making the car more race friendly but at the expense of straight line speed, to the affect that expert analysis from 2 sources have said that the Ferrari was faster in a straight line at Barcelona, I believe 1 source even said that the Ferrari was the faster race car?

However you want to believe that the Ferrari was inferior in all aspects and it's the same thing over and over, credit Vettel, discredit Hamilton, and to your credit you are always quite open about this in all the DOTD polls.

Well it wasn't me that said anything about Hamilton being able to follow Vettel more closely onto the pit straight, so think you have your wires crossed.

I was only responding to your usual sarcastic comment which puts 2+2 together and comes up with 5. You do this a lot. My point above is there is more than one way to interpret what the poster said, but you always choose the path of trying to be snide about it to try to discredit other points of view. There's no need

There's actually a general belief now that is exactly what happened, Hamilton got a better exit onto the pit straight which enabled an easier DRS pass.

There is more than one interpretation seems to be your version of arguing that black is white, how can you still argue that the Mercedes was faster than the Ferrari on the straight?

Nice deflection on the sarcasm thing, but doesn't change it

Doesn't change what, it doesn't change the fact that actual factual evidence has no home in what you believe to be true?

It doesn't change what started this conversation, that you leaped to an assumption and used sarcasm to try to discredit alternative views.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think you need to look in the mirror, it's you who keeps telling us how inferior the Ferrari is to big up Vettel, even going against what the experts have to say.

I thought I was losing my mind for a second. I distinctly recall all of the people he's arguing with saying that the cars are too closely matched to call an advantage while he proclaimed with certainty that the Mercedes was faster.

I also distinctly remember each of us criticizing Hamilton for his performance in Russia while Zoue claims that there has been an irrational bias (meanwhile he hastens to discredit or explain away Hamilton's every success and paint a picture of Vettel as racing at a handicap).

He seems to be projecting his own pattern of behavior onto others.

I've said I believe the Mercedes still has an advantage, yes. Most, if not all, the people who have queried this with me have been Hamilton supporters. 'Nuff said

You list expert pundits as being Hamilton supporters?

What you say is gospel and not to be challenged and who exactly do you expect to challenge you, Hamilton detractors?

I read on other forums Ferrari fans saying that the Ferrari is the best car but then again they might not be Vettel fans as such.

I would certainly say some of the pundits are, yes. Or I guess you missed the SKY thread where people were discussing that?

So anybody that disagrees with you are merely Hamilton fans and to be dismissed?

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton had to turn so he actually stayed on the track, Rosberg decided he wasn't going to turn until Hamilton was off the track, he also deliberately prevented Hamilton from rejoining the track, Hamilton had to run onto the grass to take avoiding action much like he had to do in Barcelona as well but unfortunately he lost control of his car so abrupt was the avoiding action he had to take.

which is different to saying he targeted him, He tried to run him off the road, sure, and left him nowhere to go, but it is factually accurate to say that Lewis turned into Rosberg, not the other war round

If you are aiming for the car in front rather than the corner itself then that is targeting the car, Hamilton said that he didn't know exactly were Rosberg's car was just that he left plenty of room for both cars to negotiate the corner by basically running to the very edge of the track and lets not forget that Hamilton's car was in front, Rosberg had no interest in both cars negotiating the corner, he was passed the apex of the corner with his wheels pointed nearly 90 degrees to the direction of the corner and you apportion the blame on Hamilton?

Ah, I see what's happened. Try to wipe the red mist from your eyes at the thought of blame being apportioned (it wasn't) and please read the above. Slowly. At no point was Rosberg's steering wheel pointing at Hamilton. Therefore, he could not have been targeting him. I'm not sure what other language you'd like it written in but it seems like plain English to me.

Rosberg left Lewis nowhere to go, which is a different kettle of fish, but he did not target him, as per your earlier, inaccurate, claim

Rosberg was looking at Hamilton's car rather than the corner itself which he managed to miss by a substantial margin, so yes he was targeting Hamilton's car.

So every time a driver looks at another car during the race they are targeting them? This is your logic?


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I thought I was losing my mind for a second. I distinctly recall all of the people he's arguing with saying that the cars are too closely matched to call an advantage while he proclaimed with certainty that the Mercedes was faster.

I also distinctly remember each of us criticizing Hamilton for his performance in Russia while Zoue claims that there has been an irrational bias (meanwhile he hastens to discredit or explain away Hamilton's every success and paint a picture of Vettel as racing at a handicap).

He seems to be projecting his own pattern of behavior onto others.

I've said I believe the Mercedes still has an advantage, yes. Most, if not all, the people who have queried this with me have been Hamilton supporters. 'Nuff said

You list expert pundits as being Hamilton supporters?

What you say is gospel and not to be challenged and who exactly do you expect to challenge you, Hamilton detractors?

I read on other forums Ferrari fans saying that the Ferrari is the best car but then again they might not be Vettel fans as such.

I would certainly say some of the pundits are, yes. Or I guess you missed the SKY thread where people were discussing that?

So anybody that disagrees with you are merely Hamilton fans and to be dismissed?

I would certainly take what some say with a pinch of salt. I think you, for example, would struggle to admit that Hamilton ever has an advantage of any kind


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So every time a driver looks at another car during the race they are targeting them? This is your logic?


Are we really still having this debate?

Rosberg made a mess of it. It was clear all along that there is a 'cute' way to force another driver off the track which is accepted - you give them space but then run wide at corner exit. Hamilton has used this to force others off the track, Vettel has used this to force others off the track, Alonso has used this to force others off the track (I say off the track, but the other driver can always see it coming and yield).

Rosberg made a backside of it. He'd run deep in to the corner in what looked like a blatant blocking move rather than doing it the 'cute' way.

We can debate morals of this all day, but the guys often regarded as the Top 3 on the grid did it in a way which seems to be accepted within F1 racing and Rosberg did it in a way which isn't.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
No, because the quote above is about qualifying. Please read

Lewis passed Vettel before turning into the corner. Vettel was alongside Bottas when both turned into the corner. This much you can see with the naked eye. So Lewis' pass was more straightforward because he breezed by the Ferrari, whereas Vettel didn't have that speed advantage and had to complete the move going into the turn itself.

Hamilton had a bigger speed advantage because he carried more speed going onto the straight so he had more of a natural tow coupled with the DRS tow, how can you disassociate straight line speeds in qualifying to that in the race when the cars go into parc ferme after qualifying?

er, engine turned up for qualifying but down during the race? Is this really a question anyone with any knowledge of F1 should be asking?

So what happened to this magically qualifying mode that Mercedes have which you are always reminding us about that always makes the Mercedes faster than the Ferrari in qualifying, does it only work in the corners and runs out of puff on the straights?

Well, I think you're the one that reminded us now, no?

I'm sure you have insider info you're willing to share where the Mercedes and Ferrari engineers agree to each turn their engines down by the exact same percentage each race after qualifying, but in the absence of that I'm assuming that things aren't quite so linear. I always thought the cars had more than two different modes, but perhaps you can educate me otherwise?

I thought the argument was that the Mercedes was faster in qualifying than the race relative to Ferrari because of their qualifying engine mode but now you want to make a case for Ferrari having the superior engine mode for qualifying given also that in qualifying Ferrari were faster on the straight but had to turn the car down more for the race than Mercedes?

Wow that's some reverse thinking there.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
which is different to saying he targeted him, He tried to run him off the road, sure, and left him nowhere to go, but it is factually accurate to say that Lewis turned into Rosberg, not the other war round

If you are aiming for the car in front rather than the corner itself then that is targeting the car, Hamilton said that he didn't know exactly were Rosberg's car was just that he left plenty of room for both cars to negotiate the corner by basically running to the very edge of the track and lets not forget that Hamilton's car was in front, Rosberg had no interest in both cars negotiating the corner, he was passed the apex of the corner with his wheels pointed nearly 90 degrees to the direction of the corner and you apportion the blame on Hamilton?

Ah, I see what's happened. Try to wipe the red mist from your eyes at the thought of blame being apportioned (it wasn't) and please read the above. Slowly. At no point was Rosberg's steering wheel pointing at Hamilton. Therefore, he could not have been targeting him. I'm not sure what other language you'd like it written in but it seems like plain English to me.

Rosberg left Lewis nowhere to go, which is a different kettle of fish, but he did not target him, as per your earlier, inaccurate, claim

Rosberg was looking at Hamilton's car rather than the corner itself which he managed to miss by a substantial margin, so yes he was targeting Hamilton's car.

So every time a driver looks at another car during the race they are targeting them? This is your logic?

When they make no attempt to go around a corner then yes.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:33 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So every time a driver looks at another car during the race they are targeting them? This is your logic?


Are we really still having this debate?

Rosberg made a mess of it. It was clear all along that there is a 'cute' way to force another driver off the track which is accepted - you give them space but then run wide at corner exit. Hamilton has used this to force others off the track, Vettel has used this to force others off the track, Alonso has used this to force others off the track (I say off the track, but the other driver can always see it coming and yield).

Rosberg made a backside of it. He'd run deep in to the corner in what looked like a blatant blocking move rather than doing it the 'cute' way.

We can debate morals of this all day, but the guys often regarded as the Top 3 on the grid did it in a way which seems to be accepted within F1 racing and Rosberg did it in a way which isn't.

the only thing I'm debating is the inaccurate statement that Rosberg targeted Hamilton. I've not discussed the morality, just the use of emotionally charged but ultimately misleading language


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:34 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I've said I believe the Mercedes still has an advantage, yes. Most, if not all, the people who have queried this with me have been Hamilton supporters. 'Nuff said

You list expert pundits as being Hamilton supporters?

What you say is gospel and not to be challenged and who exactly do you expect to challenge you, Hamilton detractors?

I read on other forums Ferrari fans saying that the Ferrari is the best car but then again they might not be Vettel fans as such.

I would certainly say some of the pundits are, yes. Or I guess you missed the SKY thread where people were discussing that?

So anybody that disagrees with you are merely Hamilton fans and to be dismissed?

I would certainly take what some say with a pinch of salt. I think you, for example, would struggle to admit that Hamilton ever has an advantage of any kind

Yeah he did miracles in 2014-16 in that donkey of a car.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton had a bigger speed advantage because he carried more speed going onto the straight so he had more of a natural tow coupled with the DRS tow, how can you disassociate straight line speeds in qualifying to that in the race when the cars go into parc ferme after qualifying?

er, engine turned up for qualifying but down during the race? Is this really a question anyone with any knowledge of F1 should be asking?

So what happened to this magically qualifying mode that Mercedes have which you are always reminding us about that always makes the Mercedes faster than the Ferrari in qualifying, does it only work in the corners and runs out of puff on the straights?

Well, I think you're the one that reminded us now, no?

I'm sure you have insider info you're willing to share where the Mercedes and Ferrari engineers agree to each turn their engines down by the exact same percentage each race after qualifying, but in the absence of that I'm assuming that things aren't quite so linear. I always thought the cars had more than two different modes, but perhaps you can educate me otherwise?

I thought the argument was that the Mercedes was faster in qualifying than the race relative to Ferrari because of their qualifying engine mode but now you want to make a case for Ferrari having the superior engine mode for qualifying given also that in qualifying Ferrari were faster on the straight but had to turn the car down more for the race than Mercedes?

Wow that's some reverse thinking there.

Again with the strawman. No, that's not what I said.

It's not my claim, but fairly widely understood, that Mercedes have the best qualifying engine mode. Several drivers have alluded to it in the past, and I doubt they read my posts. I believe that Ferrari also have one, but it's not as good as the Mercedes one. I'm pretty sure this is fairly common knowledge.

That's point one. Point two is that it's not unheard of for teams to turn down the engine during a race to avoid a breakdown. Indeed, Vettel was told to box just before (it may even have been during) his flying lap because they thought there was a problem with the PU. But he kept going anyway. But that alone may have made them worried for the race. So it's hardly rocket science to understand that the differences between the cars in qualifying may not necessarily be replicated during the race, or even during different parts of the race. Indeed, even the use of ERS may be different between qualifying and the race, as in qualifying it's used for ultimate lap pace, whereas during the race it may be used where it best helps the driver attack or defend. Your attempt to claim the cars are identical relative to each other between qualifying and the race shows a basic lack of understanding of how things work.

So in the examples that we've been merrily discussing, whatever relative speeds on the straight the cars had in qualifying were not necessarily replicated in a) the lap where Vettel overtook Bottas and b) the lap where Hamilton overtook Vettel.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You list expert pundits as being Hamilton supporters?

What you say is gospel and not to be challenged and who exactly do you expect to challenge you, Hamilton detractors?

I read on other forums Ferrari fans saying that the Ferrari is the best car but then again they might not be Vettel fans as such.

I would certainly say some of the pundits are, yes. Or I guess you missed the SKY thread where people were discussing that?

So anybody that disagrees with you are merely Hamilton fans and to be dismissed?

I would certainly take what some say with a pinch of salt. I think you, for example, would struggle to admit that Hamilton ever has an advantage of any kind

Yeah he did miracles in 2014-16 in that donkey of a car.

See? Case in point!

I think even you would struggle to claim Lewis didn't have an advantage over any non-Merc cars in the last three years, but when things are closer it's not so straightforward.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:42 pm 
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I dont know why Rosberg v Hamilton in Austria has been brought up here...
I respect the different opinions, but personally, I`ve never seen a more blatant attempt to ram the car on the outside of a corner.
Rosberg was the one benefiting from a possible double-DNF and I think he went for it.

Hamilton could not have taken the corner any wider without leaving the track (which could have invalidated his imminent overtake on Rosberg), while Rosberg simply chose not to turn at all.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Migen wrote:
I dont know why Rosberg v Hamilton in Austria has been brought up here...
I respect the different opinions, but personally, I`ve never seen a more blatant attempt to ram the car on the outside of a corner.
Rosberg was the one benefiting from a possible double-DNF and I think he went for it.

Hamilton could not have taken the corner any wider without leaving the track (which could have invalidated his imminent overtake on Rosberg), while Rosberg simply chose not to turn at all.


I agree with you 100%. Rosberg made a brazen move to ram into Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 6:58 pm 
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https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/ ... open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:19 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

On the 1st 2 races, when Ferrari has refused Kimi's request to pit, 1 or 2 forumers here have been interpreted it as a dirty attempt by Ferrari to get Kimi in Hamilton's way, even though it never materialized... I'm wondering what sinister intentions Ferrari had this time around by refusing to pit Vettel unders VSC regime! :-P


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:17 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

I'm not convinced it would have won them the race. If Vettel would have pit under VSC and Hamilton hadn't then yes he would have won, if they both came in under VSC there would have been around an 8-10 second gap between them but Hamilton would have far better tyres. The gap would have closed I'm certain, passing would have been more difficult than it was though and it would have probably have given us a better battle/race, maybe Ferrari should listen to Vettel more often!

It is worrying though that will all the information available to them on the pit wall Vettel has actually out done them in strategy/quick thinking twice in one weekend.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:39 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

I'm not convinced it would have won them the race. If Vettel would have pit under VSC and Hamilton hadn't then yes he would have won, if they both came in under VSC there would have been around an 8-10 second gap between them but Hamilton would have far better tyres. The gap would have closed I'm certain, passing would have been more difficult than it was though and it would have probably have given us a better battle/race, maybe Ferrari should listen to Vettel more often!

It is worrying though that will all the information available to them on the pit wall Vettel has actually out done them in strategy/quick thinking twice in one weekend.


I was thinking how well Vettel can read a race even though he is the one in the car. Ferrari actually did the worst strategy they could have at that point of the race. Like you say it might have not made any difference as Hamilton would have caught Vettel very quickly.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I would certainly say some of the pundits are, yes. Or I guess you missed the SKY thread where people were discussing that?

So anybody that disagrees with you are merely Hamilton fans and to be dismissed?

I would certainly take what some say with a pinch of salt. I think you, for example, would struggle to admit that Hamilton ever has an advantage of any kind

Yeah he did miracles in 2014-16 in that donkey of a car.

See? Case in point!

I think even you would struggle to claim Lewis didn't have an advantage over any non-Merc cars in the last three years, but when things are closer it's not so straightforward.

No this year it's not straight forward for me at all but for you apparently it is as you can precisely ascertain the relative performance of the cars it seems and surprise surprise the Ferrari always seems to be the slower car.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:52 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

The guy is more switched on then the Ferrari strategist who supposedly has more information to hand and it's not the first time we have seen this.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

On the 1st 2 races, when Ferrari has refused Kimi's request to pit, 1 or 2 forumers here have been interpreted it as a dirty attempt by Ferrari to get Kimi in Hamilton's way, even though it never materialized... I'm wondering what sinister intentions Ferrari had this time around by refusing to pit Vettel unders VSC regime! :-P

I think it is a little bit different when your tyres are shot? ;)

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

On the 1st 2 races, when Ferrari has refused Kimi's request to pit, 1 or 2 forumers here have been interpreted it as a dirty attempt by Ferrari to get Kimi in Hamilton's way, even though it never materialized... I'm wondering what sinister intentions Ferrari had this time around by refusing to pit Vettel unders VSC regime! :-P

I think it is a little bit different when your tyres are shot? ;)

Aye, but in 1 of those instances Kimi complained about his tires very early on (probably within 9 - 10 laps)... at that rate, do you recon Ferrari should have accommodated Kimi into a 3 or 4 stop strategy?


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:23 pm 
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Migen wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

On the 1st 2 races, when Ferrari has refused Kimi's request to pit, 1 or 2 forumers here have been interpreted it as a dirty attempt by Ferrari to get Kimi in Hamilton's way, even though it never materialized... I'm wondering what sinister intentions Ferrari had this time around by refusing to pit Vettel unders VSC regime! :-P

I think it is a little bit different when your tyres are shot? ;)

Aye, but in 1 of those instances Kimi complained about his tires very early on (probably within 9 - 10 laps)... at that rate, do you recon Ferrari should have accommodated Kimi into a 3 or 4 stop strategy?

No but when he's been left out longer than the other leading drivers and then complains his tyres are shot then maybe he has good cause then?

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:01 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So anybody that disagrees with you are merely Hamilton fans and to be dismissed?

I would certainly take what some say with a pinch of salt. I think you, for example, would struggle to admit that Hamilton ever has an advantage of any kind

Yeah he did miracles in 2014-16 in that donkey of a car.

See? Case in point!

I think even you would struggle to claim Lewis didn't have an advantage over any non-Merc cars in the last three years, but when things are closer it's not so straightforward.

No this year it's not straight forward for me at all but for you apparently it is as you can precisely ascertain the relative performance of the cars it seems and surprise surprise the Ferrari always seems to be the slower car.

I said the Ferrari seemed slower down the straight, which was supported by the video feed, especially when comparing the two overtakes. This seems to bother you unduly.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:03 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

I'm not convinced it would have won them the race. If Vettel would have pit under VSC and Hamilton hadn't then yes he would have won, if they both came in under VSC there would have been around an 8-10 second gap between them but Hamilton would have far better tyres. The gap would have closed I'm certain, passing would have been more difficult than it was though and it would have probably have given us a better battle/race, maybe Ferrari should listen to Vettel more often!

It is worrying though that will all the information available to them on the pit wall Vettel has actually out done them in strategy/quick thinking twice in one weekend.

Yes, it's not the first time the Ferrari strategist has made questionable calls


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:34 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/05/insight-how-the-spanish-gp-swung-between-lewis-hamilton-and-sebastian-vettel-until-ferrari-left-open-goal/

Interesting that Vettel radioed the team to say he should pit during the VSC.

I'm not convinced it would have won them the race. If Vettel would have pit under VSC and Hamilton hadn't then yes he would have won, if they both came in under VSC there would have been around an 8-10 second gap between them but Hamilton would have far better tyres. The gap would have closed I'm certain, passing would have been more difficult than it was though and it would have probably have given us a better battle/race, maybe Ferrari should listen to Vettel more often!

It is worrying though that will all the information available to them on the pit wall Vettel has actually out done them in strategy/quick thinking twice in one weekend.

Yes, it's not the first time the Ferrari strategist has made questionable calls


We also need to consider though, the strategists are playing the percentages. When his engine looked like going pop (or whatever their concern was in Qualifying), the strategist is thinking of risk versus reward. If there is a 10% risk we should keep him out, if its 90% we should bring him in (with a whole bunch of grey area in between). You can make the wrong call and get lucky, or you can make the right call and be unlucky. From the outside we can't tell. :)

Vettel may well have got lucky twice. And on the 2nd, even that was dependent on Merc. My memory is failing, was Bottas still alive at the VSC? Either way Merc had options, and they probably feared giving Hamilton clean air.. Bottas as a blocker would seal it though.


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