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Driver of the weekend: Spanish GP
Poll ended at Fri May 19, 2017 2:05 pm
Hamilton 52%  52%  [ 30 ]
Bottas 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vettel 16%  16%  [ 9 ]
Raikkonen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ricciardo 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Verstappen 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Massa 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Stroll 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Perez 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ocon 3%  3%  [ 2 ]
Sainz 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Kvyat 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hulkenberg 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Palmer 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Alonso 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Vandoorne 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Magnussen 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Grosjean 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Ericsson 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Wehrlein 24%  24%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 58
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Driver of The Weekend 2017 - Spain

Cast your vote for the 2017 Spanish Grand Prix!


Rules & Format
Quote:
- Voting is based on driver performance (not who has the prettiest girlfriend/best haircut)
- Voting is based on performance of the whole race weekend, so qualifying counts towards your assessment.
- You only get one vote
- The poll will start on either on the day of the GP (or Monday if I am unable to for some reason)
- The poll will run until Friday so that it will always end before the next GP
- The top three voted for drivers will earn points towards a championship table as follows:
- 1st: 5 points
- 2nd: 3 points
- 3rd: 1 point
- Ties will be decided by finishing position



Standings after Russia
Code:
   |  Driver      | Points |
1  |  Vettel      |   16   |
2  |  Hamilton    |    8   |
3  |  Bottas      |    5   |
4  |  Perez       |    3   |
5  |  Giovinazzi  |    3   |
6  |  Verstappen  |    1   |


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Wehrlein. Got into Q2 and finished in the points in probably the slowest car in the grid.

Plenty of good drives thoughout field :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Wehrlein gets my vote, he placed the Sauber in positions where it doesnt belong


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Yes i'd go with Wehrlein, too


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Lewis.
Maybe without the error for the 5 sec penalty i'd have gone Wehrlein.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:23 pm 
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That pass on Bottas should put Vettel in a good position.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Pascal Wehrlein. He qualified well and scored a result that could prove decisive in the constructors' table come the end of the season.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:27 pm 
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It's between Hamilton, Wehrlein and the Force India drivers for me.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:29 pm 
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Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:33 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?

Not really. He lost the same way Hamilton lost in Australia. By pitting first, he gave Mercedes the opportunity to outsmart Ferrari (which they finally did). With the race lead he could have forced Hamilton to blink first.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:40 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?

Not really. He lost the same way Hamilton lost in Australia. By pitting first, he gave Mercedes the opportunity to outsmart Ferrari (which they finally did). With the race lead he could have forced Hamilton to blink first.

OTOH, if Hamilton had made the undercut he likely would have overtaken Vettel. Damned if you do...

Vettel had Hamilton covered. It was the VSC (coupled with Bottas playing moving chicane) that cost Vettel the race, not Merc's strategy. He finished 3.4s behind Lewis, which would easily be accounted for by the issues just mentioned.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Man I can't stand how sky have suddenly come to a conclusion that Vettel and Hamilton are now "clear number 1 drivers" Remember Bottas had an old engine and had to retire throught no fault of his own!. If Hamilton was to retire next race and Bottas was to win, they would be back to just 10 points appart. At which point sky were saying Bottas looks like he'll be in the championship fight! We are only 5 races in and we don't know what will happen.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?

Not really. He lost the same way Hamilton lost in Australia. By pitting first, he gave Mercedes the opportunity to outsmart Ferrari (which they finally did). With the race lead he could have forced Hamilton to blink first.

OTOH, if Hamilton had made the undercut he likely would have overtaken Vettel. Damned if you do...

Vettel had Hamilton covered. It was the VSC (coupled with Bottas playing moving chicane) that cost Vettel the race, not Merc's strategy. He finished 3.4s behind Lewis, which would easily be accounted for by the issues just mentioned.

In the grand scheme of things, the VSC was inconsequential. Hamilton actually didn't take advantage of it as much as he could have. Had he pitted a lap earlier, Vettel would have lost the ability to come out of the pits in the lead.

Vettel did not have Hamilton covered at all. There were two pivotal events in this race. The first was Mercedes putting Lewis on the medium tires after his first stop. This got them out of the way and set Lewis up to have the faster tires at the end. Bottas holding up Vettel is something that Ferrari should have foreseen when they brought Sebastian in. Ultimately, Vettel passed him after just a couple of laps so it wasn't what determined the outcome. In fact Vettel came out of the pits with the lead after the VSC.

The second pivotal moment was Hamilton overtaking Vettel on track. Sure he had the quicker tire but it's not an easy track to pass on and if he didn't pull it off within the first few laps of coming out of the pits, it would have been nearly impossible to do it.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?

Not really. He lost the same way Hamilton lost in Australia. By pitting first, he gave Mercedes the opportunity to outsmart Ferrari (which they finally did). With the race lead he could have forced Hamilton to blink first.

OTOH, if Hamilton had made the undercut he likely would have overtaken Vettel. Damned if you do...

Vettel had Hamilton covered. It was the VSC (coupled with Bottas playing moving chicane) that cost Vettel the race, not Merc's strategy. He finished 3.4s behind Lewis, which would easily be accounted for by the issues just mentioned.

In the grand scheme of things, the VSC was inconsequential. Hamilton actually didn't take advantage of it as much as he could have. Had he pitted a lap earlier, Vettel would have lost the ability to come out of the pits in the lead.

Vettel did not have Hamilton covered at all. There were two pivotal events in this race. The first was Mercedes putting Lewis on the medium tires after his first stop. This got them out of the way and set Lewis up to have the faster tires at the end. Bottas holding up Vettel is something that Ferrari should have foreseen when they brought Sebastian in. Ultimately, Vettel passed him after just a couple of laps so it wasn't what determined the outcome. In fact Vettel came out of the pits with the lead after the VSC.

The second pivotal moment was Hamilton overtaking Vettel on track. Sure he had the quicker tire but it's not an easy track to pass on and if he didn't pull it off within the first few laps of coming out of the pits, it would have been nearly impossible to do it.

Sorry, can't agree with this at all. VSC inconsequential? I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Hamilton pitted when he did because of the VSC. He'd barely gotten his mediums warm and did a much shorter stint on them than he otherwise would have done. I need to check when the timings are published but I'm pretty sure that Hamilton was over 7s behind Vettel when the VSC came out. Yet when both he and Vettel had their stops, within one lap of each other, that gap dropped to literally nothing. That was entirely due to the VSC and was the pivotal moment in the race. Without it, on the slower tyre, the gap would probably have increased and Hamilton wouldn't have been anywhere near as close after both made their stops. Vettel had the race covered without the VSC but luck wasn't with him today. The VSC saved Mercedes' race no doubt


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not really. He lost the same way Hamilton lost in Australia. By pitting first, he gave Mercedes the opportunity to outsmart Ferrari (which they finally did). With the race lead he could have forced Hamilton to blink first.

OTOH, if Hamilton had made the undercut he likely would have overtaken Vettel. Damned if you do...

Vettel had Hamilton covered. It was the VSC (coupled with Bottas playing moving chicane) that cost Vettel the race, not Merc's strategy. He finished 3.4s behind Lewis, which would easily be accounted for by the issues just mentioned.

In the grand scheme of things, the VSC was inconsequential. Hamilton actually didn't take advantage of it as much as he could have. Had he pitted a lap earlier, Vettel would have lost the ability to come out of the pits in the lead.

Vettel did not have Hamilton covered at all. There were two pivotal events in this race. The first was Mercedes putting Lewis on the medium tires after his first stop. This got them out of the way and set Lewis up to have the faster tires at the end. Bottas holding up Vettel is something that Ferrari should have foreseen when they brought Sebastian in. Ultimately, Vettel passed him after just a couple of laps so it wasn't what determined the outcome. In fact Vettel came out of the pits with the lead after the VSC.

The second pivotal moment was Hamilton overtaking Vettel on track. Sure he had the quicker tire but it's not an easy track to pass on and if he didn't pull it off within the first few laps of coming out of the pits, it would have been nearly impossible to do it.

Sorry, can't agree with this at all. VSC inconsequential? I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Hamilton pitted when he did because of the VSC. He'd barely gotten his mediums warm and did a much shorter stint on them than he otherwise would have done. I need to check when the timings are published but I'm pretty sure that Hamilton was over 7s behind Vettel when the VSC came out. Yet when both he and Vettel had their stops, within one lap of each other, that gap dropped to literally nothing. That was entirely due to the VSC and was the pivotal moment in the race. Without it, on the slower tyre, the gap would probably have increased and Hamilton wouldn't have been anywhere near as close after both made their stops. Vettel had the race covered without the VSC but luck wasn't with him today. The VSC saved Mercedes' race no doubt

No, Hamilton gained roughly 4 seconds by pitting under the VSC. He gained another 3 seconds on his outlap. Without the VSC, Hamilton would still have easily been able to catch Vettel on the quicker tires within 3-4 laps. There was nothing that would have prevented Vettel from being on the slower tire with Hamilton on his tail during the final stint.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:07 pm 
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The big advantage of the VSC timing was that it allowed Hamilton to ditch the mediums earlier than expected and forced Vettel onto them earlier than he would have liked. Before that Vettel was pulling away on the softs and as we saw from Hamilton's final stint the softs would have held on for quite a while after that with little degradation.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:07 pm 
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I see many people voting for Hamilton.
I dont think he deserves the DOTD for one reason: he was helped by Bottas, slowing Vettel down a good amount and that probably was the key for his win


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?


I think he could have waited for Ham to pit. Ham couldn't get closer than 2.5 seconds for most of the first stint, but as soon as he reduced the gap to 1.9 Vettel rushed into the pits. That gave Mercedes the opportunity to create a tire advantage towards the end of the race. Yes, very similar to what happened in Australia. Also it was always obvious that the medium tire was not going to be the tire of choice today. The goal should have been to get that medium tire stint over with as soon as possible. Saving the medium for the end put Vettel in a very vulnerable situation. I know some think Hamilton wouldn't have been able to overtake if he had to chase down Vettel at the end, but to me that is debatable. The difference between mediums and softs was huge today.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Sorry, can't agree with this at all. VSC inconsequential? I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Hamilton pitted when he did because of the VSC. He'd barely gotten his mediums warm and did a much shorter stint on them than he otherwise would have done. I need to check when the timings are published but I'm pretty sure that Hamilton was over 7s behind Vettel when the VSC came out. Yet when both he and Vettel had their stops, within one lap of each other, that gap dropped to literally nothing. That was entirely due to the VSC and was the pivotal moment in the race. Without it, on the slower tyre, the gap would probably have increased and Hamilton wouldn't have been anywhere near as close after both made their stops. Vettel had the race covered without the VSC but luck wasn't with him today. The VSC saved Mercedes' race no doubt

If I recall correctly the VSC ended just as Hamilton entered the pitlane. I don't think he really gained much from the pitstop itself, he needed to pit a lap earlier (as I think they had intended) to get the benefit of the VSC.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:37 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
I see many people voting for Hamilton.
I dont think he deserves the DOTD for one reason: he was helped by Bottas, slowing Vettel down a good amount and that probably was the key for his win

That would be a driver of the day consideration to me. He was good throughout practice, took pole, and won the race after losing out at the start. So to me and apparently many others that makes for a great weekend.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Wehrlein - Q2 and points in a Sauber with a year old engine. Marvellous

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Hamilton, got pole and did what he had to do in the race.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:02 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
I see many people voting for Hamilton.
I dont think he deserves the DOTD for one reason: he was helped by Bottas, slowing Vettel down a good amount and that probably was the key for his win

That would be a driver of the day consideration to me. He was good throughout practice, took pole, and won the race after losing out at the start. So to me and apparently many others that makes for a great weekend.


I didn't vote for Hamilton but to get pole/win and fastest lap without a big car advantage is good going and vote worthy.

Personally I didn't vote for him because I think he got a bit of a let off in quali.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:19 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Not really. He lost the same way Hamilton lost in Australia. By pitting first, he gave Mercedes the opportunity to outsmart Ferrari (which they finally did). With the race lead he could have forced Hamilton to blink first.

OTOH, if Hamilton had made the undercut he likely would have overtaken Vettel. Damned if you do...

Vettel had Hamilton covered. It was the VSC (coupled with Bottas playing moving chicane) that cost Vettel the race, not Merc's strategy. He finished 3.4s behind Lewis, which would easily be accounted for by the issues just mentioned.

In the grand scheme of things, the VSC was inconsequential. Hamilton actually didn't take advantage of it as much as he could have. Had he pitted a lap earlier, Vettel would have lost the ability to come out of the pits in the lead.

Vettel did not have Hamilton covered at all. There were two pivotal events in this race. The first was Mercedes putting Lewis on the medium tires after his first stop. This got them out of the way and set Lewis up to have the faster tires at the end. Bottas holding up Vettel is something that Ferrari should have foreseen when they brought Sebastian in. Ultimately, Vettel passed him after just a couple of laps so it wasn't what determined the outcome. In fact Vettel came out of the pits with the lead after the VSC.

The second pivotal moment was Hamilton overtaking Vettel on track. Sure he had the quicker tire but it's not an easy track to pass on and if he didn't pull it off within the first few laps of coming out of the pits, it would have been nearly impossible to do it.

Sorry, can't agree with this at all. VSC inconsequential? I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Hamilton pitted when he did because of the VSC. He'd barely gotten his mediums warm and did a much shorter stint on them than he otherwise would have done. I need to check when the timings are published but I'm pretty sure that Hamilton was over 7s behind Vettel when the VSC came out. Yet when both he and Vettel had their stops, within one lap of each other, that gap dropped to literally nothing. That was entirely due to the VSC and was the pivotal moment in the race. Without it, on the slower tyre, the gap would probably have increased and Hamilton wouldn't have been anywhere near as close after both made their stops. Vettel had the race covered without the VSC but luck wasn't with him today. The VSC saved Mercedes' race no doubt

No, Hamilton gained roughly 4 seconds by pitting under the VSC. He gained another 3 seconds on his outlap. Without the VSC, Hamilton would still have easily been able to catch Vettel on the quicker tires within 3-4 laps. There was nothing that would have prevented Vettel from being on the slower tire with Hamilton on his tail during the final stint.

Hamilton was 8.267s behind Vettel when he pitted under the VSC. Vettel pitted the following lap when there was no more VSC and when he came out they were neck and neck. So Vettel lost 8s seconds because of the VSC. And you're saying the VSC was inconsequential? How much time has to be lost to be of consequence? Vettel also lost a further 3s stuck behind Bottas. So all in all Vettel lost more than 11s to Hamilton because of the VSC and Bottas. He couldn't have anticipated Bottas being so slow or the VSC playing into Hamilton's hands and cutting short his Medium stint, so he had everything under control until outside events conspired against him and took his victory away. Hamilton/Mercedes would not have won without the VSC, therefore it was anything but inconsequential.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:26 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?


I think he could have waited for Ham to pit. Ham couldn't get closer than 2.5 seconds for most of the first stint, but as soon as he reduced the gap to 1.9 Vettel rushed into the pits. That gave Mercedes the opportunity to create a tire advantage towards the end of the race. Yes, very similar to what happened in Australia. Also it was always obvious that the medium tire was not going to be the tire of choice today. The goal should have been to get that medium tire stint over with as soon as possible. Saving the medium for the end put Vettel in a very vulnerable situation. I know some think Hamilton wouldn't have been able to overtake if he had to chase down Vettel at the end, but to me that is debatable. The difference between mediums and softs was huge today.

It was big, but the VSC helped Hamilton immensely. First, he got a free pit stop and neutralised an 8s advantage Vettel had in one stroke. Second, he came in a lot earlier than he otherwise would have done and had an extremely short stint on the Mediums. Without the VSC, Hamilton would have had to have chased Vettel for much longer and, although he may have caught him by the end, he would not have had the fresh tyre advantage he did have today and so overtaking would have been anything but a done deal. All the signs pointed to Vettel being in control of the race. Before the VSC, he was pulling away from Hamilton, meaning that the hill the latter would have had to climb would have been even bigger. Everything points to Vettel holding on for the win


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?

Not really. He lost the same way Hamilton lost in Australia. By pitting first, he gave Mercedes the opportunity to outsmart Ferrari (which they finally did). With the race lead he could have forced Hamilton to blink first.

OTOH, if Hamilton had made the undercut he likely would have overtaken Vettel. Damned if you do...

Vettel had Hamilton covered. It was the VSC (coupled with Bottas playing moving chicane) that cost Vettel the race, not Merc's strategy. He finished 3.4s behind Lewis, which would easily be accounted for by the issues just mentioned.

In the grand scheme of things, the VSC was inconsequential.


I have not seen any source yet refer to the VSC as being inconsequential, most stories list both the VSC and the time lost behind Bottas as being factors in the results. It happens in racing, no argument, but inconsequential? Nope, I can't buy that one.

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:28 pm 
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Blake wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?

Not really. He lost the same way Hamilton lost in Australia. By pitting first, he gave Mercedes the opportunity to outsmart Ferrari (which they finally did). With the race lead he could have forced Hamilton to blink first.

OTOH, if Hamilton had made the undercut he likely would have overtaken Vettel. Damned if you do...

Vettel had Hamilton covered. It was the VSC (coupled with Bottas playing moving chicane) that cost Vettel the race, not Merc's strategy. He finished 3.4s behind Lewis, which would easily be accounted for by the issues just mentioned.

In the grand scheme of things, the VSC was inconsequential.


I have not seen any source yet refer to the VSC as being inconsequential, most stories list both the VSC and the time lost behind Bottas as being factors in the results. It happens in racing, no argument, but inconsequential? Nope, I can't buy that one.

It's a very strange assertion and the facts don't support it


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In the grand scheme of things, the VSC was inconsequential. Hamilton actually didn't take advantage of it as much as he could have. Had he pitted a lap earlier, Vettel would have lost the ability to come out of the pits in the lead.

Vettel did not have Hamilton covered at all. There were two pivotal events in this race. The first was Mercedes putting Lewis on the medium tires after his first stop. This got them out of the way and set Lewis up to have the faster tires at the end. Bottas holding up Vettel is something that Ferrari should have foreseen when they brought Sebastian in. Ultimately, Vettel passed him after just a couple of laps so it wasn't what determined the outcome. In fact Vettel came out of the pits with the lead after the VSC.

The second pivotal moment was Hamilton overtaking Vettel on track. Sure he had the quicker tire but it's not an easy track to pass on and if he didn't pull it off within the first few laps of coming out of the pits, it would have been nearly impossible to do it.

Sorry, can't agree with this at all. VSC inconsequential? I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Hamilton pitted when he did because of the VSC. He'd barely gotten his mediums warm and did a much shorter stint on them than he otherwise would have done. I need to check when the timings are published but I'm pretty sure that Hamilton was over 7s behind Vettel when the VSC came out. Yet when both he and Vettel had their stops, within one lap of each other, that gap dropped to literally nothing. That was entirely due to the VSC and was the pivotal moment in the race. Without it, on the slower tyre, the gap would probably have increased and Hamilton wouldn't have been anywhere near as close after both made their stops. Vettel had the race covered without the VSC but luck wasn't with him today. The VSC saved Mercedes' race no doubt

No, Hamilton gained roughly 4 seconds by pitting under the VSC. He gained another 3 seconds on his outlap. Without the VSC, Hamilton would still have easily been able to catch Vettel on the quicker tires within 3-4 laps. There was nothing that would have prevented Vettel from being on the slower tire with Hamilton on his tail during the final stint.

Hamilton was 8.267s behind Vettel when he pitted under the VSC. Vettel pitted the following lap when there was no more VSC and when he came out they were neck and neck. So Vettel lost 8s seconds because of the VSC. And you're saying the VSC was inconsequential? How much time has to be lost to be of consequence? Vettel also lost a further 3s stuck behind Bottas. So all in all Vettel lost more than 11s to Hamilton because of the VSC and Bottas. He couldn't have anticipated Bottas being so slow or the VSC playing into Hamilton's hands and cutting short his Medium stint, so he had everything under control until outside events conspired against him and took his victory away. Hamilton/Mercedes would not have won without the VSC, therefore it was anything but inconsequential.

That's actually not the way to look at it because of the VSC delta rules. When the VSC period began, Hamilton was 7.5 seconds behind Vettel. Hamilton then lost time under the VSC (something which shouldn't happen). It seems as though Mercedes actually got their wires crossed under the VSC as they could easily have had Lewis do a quicker lap and then make up for the reduced gap when he came into the pits. Anyway, as I said, the fact that Lewis was on the faster tire was always going to mean he would catch Vettel. The safety car only reduced the amount of time it took for that to happen. Much of the time Vettel lost was on the lap he did on old tires while Hamilton was on new tires. The VSC just trimmed about 3-4 laps from the time-frame in which they ended up nose to tail.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?


I think he could have waited for Ham to pit. Ham couldn't get closer than 2.5 seconds for most of the first stint, but as soon as he reduced the gap to 1.9 Vettel rushed into the pits. That gave Mercedes the opportunity to create a tire advantage towards the end of the race. Yes, very similar to what happened in Australia. Also it was always obvious that the medium tire was not going to be the tire of choice today. The goal should have been to get that medium tire stint over with as soon as possible. Saving the medium for the end put Vettel in a very vulnerable situation. I know some think Hamilton wouldn't have been able to overtake if he had to chase down Vettel at the end, but to me that is debatable. The difference between mediums and softs was huge today.

It was big, but the VSC helped Hamilton immensely. First, he got a free pit stop and neutralised an 8s advantage Vettel had in one stroke. Second, he came in a lot earlier than he otherwise would have done and had an extremely short stint on the Mediums. Without the VSC, Hamilton would have had to have chased Vettel for much longer and, although he may have caught him by the end, he would not have had the fresh tyre advantage he did have today and so overtaking would have been anything but a done deal. All the signs pointed to Vettel being in control of the race. Before the VSC, he was pulling away from Hamilton, meaning that the hill the latter would have had to climb would have been even bigger. Everything points to Vettel holding on for the win


He didn't get a free pitstop at all. It saved him 8 seconds. A free pitstop would have got him around 22 seconds. I don't agree that the VSC was inconsequential but it certainly didn't give him a free pitstop either.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:32 pm 
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j man wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Sorry, can't agree with this at all. VSC inconsequential? I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Hamilton pitted when he did because of the VSC. He'd barely gotten his mediums warm and did a much shorter stint on them than he otherwise would have done. I need to check when the timings are published but I'm pretty sure that Hamilton was over 7s behind Vettel when the VSC came out. Yet when both he and Vettel had their stops, within one lap of each other, that gap dropped to literally nothing. That was entirely due to the VSC and was the pivotal moment in the race. Without it, on the slower tyre, the gap would probably have increased and Hamilton wouldn't have been anywhere near as close after both made their stops. Vettel had the race covered without the VSC but luck wasn't with him today. The VSC saved Mercedes' race no doubt

If I recall correctly the VSC ended just as Hamilton entered the pitlane. I don't think he really gained much from the pitstop itself, he needed to pit a lap earlier (as I think they had intended) to get the benefit of the VSC.

he gained 8s with the VSC, enough to wipe out Vettel's entire advantage. It also allowed Hamilton a very short Medium stint and heavily compromised Vettel's strategy, which was succeeding up to that point. He gained a massive amount from the VSC and it won him the race


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Hamilton for me, after a couple of tough weekends he needed to bounce back under enormous pressure. Put the car on pole and got the job done today.
Vettel drove great all weekend but came up short when it mattered most on both saturday and sunday.
Wherlein also was impressive all weekend but Ericsson wasn't that far behind him at all on pace. The difference today was that Wherlein did a one stopper. He seems to have a knack for going on longer stints.

I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?


I think he could have waited for Ham to pit. Ham couldn't get closer than 2.5 seconds for most of the first stint, but as soon as he reduced the gap to 1.9 Vettel rushed into the pits. That gave Mercedes the opportunity to create a tire advantage towards the end of the race. Yes, very similar to what happened in Australia. Also it was always obvious that the medium tire was not going to be the tire of choice today. The goal should have been to get that medium tire stint over with as soon as possible. Saving the medium for the end put Vettel in a very vulnerable situation. I know some think Hamilton wouldn't have been able to overtake if he had to chase down Vettel at the end, but to me that is debatable. The difference between mediums and softs was huge today.

It was big, but the VSC helped Hamilton immensely. First, he got a free pit stop and neutralised an 8s advantage Vettel had in one stroke. Second, he came in a lot earlier than he otherwise would have done and had an extremely short stint on the Mediums. Without the VSC, Hamilton would have had to have chased Vettel for much longer and, although he may have caught him by the end, he would not have had the fresh tyre advantage he did have today and so overtaking would have been anything but a done deal. All the signs pointed to Vettel being in control of the race. Before the VSC, he was pulling away from Hamilton, meaning that the hill the latter would have had to climb would have been even bigger. Everything points to Vettel holding on for the win


He didn't get a free pitstop at all. It saved him 8 seconds. A free pitstop would have got him around 22 seconds. I don't agree that the VSC was inconsequential but it certainly didn't give him a free pitstop either.

Split hairs all you want but Hamilton would not have won without it


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:35 pm 
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If things had fallen better for Ferrari, the question is: would Hamilton have still caught and passed Vettel by the end of the race? He'd have still caught up by the end but passing on older and more used up softs is another matter; then holding on would be harder because he'd have used up much more of the tyres in the extra time it would have taken him to catch up and pass if he could. With 10+ seconds or so to gain, Vettel would have had much much greater chances for victory (obviously).


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Anything but Hamilton might be wrong here, everything played in his hands saturday and sunday, both in qualifying with 0.05 s after engine troubles both for Bottas and Vettel, and then lost the start but got it back by VSC and Bottas holding Vettel up, a team effort.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:38 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
Anything but Hamilton might be wrong here, everything played in his hands saturday and sunday, both in qualifying with 0.05 s after engine troubles both for Bottas and Vettel, and then lost the start but got it back by VSC and Bottas holding Vettel up, a team effort.


That's why the season is as much about Kimi and Bottas as anyone else.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Split hairs all you want but Hamilton would not have won without it

I'm not sure 8 seconds would have been enough, Hamilton only won by around 4 IIRC but I think he could have won by more had he wanted to. The softs were by far the better tyre, he pulled a 2 second gap very quickly and then turned everything down IMO.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:39 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In the grand scheme of things, the VSC was inconsequential. Hamilton actually didn't take advantage of it as much as he could have. Had he pitted a lap earlier, Vettel would have lost the ability to come out of the pits in the lead.

Vettel did not have Hamilton covered at all. There were two pivotal events in this race. The first was Mercedes putting Lewis on the medium tires after his first stop. This got them out of the way and set Lewis up to have the faster tires at the end. Bottas holding up Vettel is something that Ferrari should have foreseen when they brought Sebastian in. Ultimately, Vettel passed him after just a couple of laps so it wasn't what determined the outcome. In fact Vettel came out of the pits with the lead after the VSC.

The second pivotal moment was Hamilton overtaking Vettel on track. Sure he had the quicker tire but it's not an easy track to pass on and if he didn't pull it off within the first few laps of coming out of the pits, it would have been nearly impossible to do it.

Sorry, can't agree with this at all. VSC inconsequential? I don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion.

Hamilton pitted when he did because of the VSC. He'd barely gotten his mediums warm and did a much shorter stint on them than he otherwise would have done. I need to check when the timings are published but I'm pretty sure that Hamilton was over 7s behind Vettel when the VSC came out. Yet when both he and Vettel had their stops, within one lap of each other, that gap dropped to literally nothing. That was entirely due to the VSC and was the pivotal moment in the race. Without it, on the slower tyre, the gap would probably have increased and Hamilton wouldn't have been anywhere near as close after both made their stops. Vettel had the race covered without the VSC but luck wasn't with him today. The VSC saved Mercedes' race no doubt

No, Hamilton gained roughly 4 seconds by pitting under the VSC. He gained another 3 seconds on his outlap. Without the VSC, Hamilton would still have easily been able to catch Vettel on the quicker tires within 3-4 laps. There was nothing that would have prevented Vettel from being on the slower tire with Hamilton on his tail during the final stint.

Hamilton was 8.267s behind Vettel when he pitted under the VSC. Vettel pitted the following lap when there was no more VSC and when he came out they were neck and neck. So Vettel lost 8s seconds because of the VSC. And you're saying the VSC was inconsequential? How much time has to be lost to be of consequence? Vettel also lost a further 3s stuck behind Bottas. So all in all Vettel lost more than 11s to Hamilton because of the VSC and Bottas. He couldn't have anticipated Bottas being so slow or the VSC playing into Hamilton's hands and cutting short his Medium stint, so he had everything under control until outside events conspired against him and took his victory away. Hamilton/Mercedes would not have won without the VSC, therefore it was anything but inconsequential.

That's actually not the way to look at it because of the VSC delta rules. When the VSC period began, Hamilton was 7.5 seconds behind Vettel. Hamilton then lost time under the VSC (something which shouldn't happen). It seems as though Mercedes actually got their wires crossed under the VSC as they could easily have had Lewis do a quicker lap and then make up for the reduced gap when he came into the pits. Anyway, as I said, the fact that Lewis was on the faster tire was always going to mean he would catch Vettel. The safety car only reduced the amount of time it took for that to happen. Much of the time Vettel lost was on the lap he did on old tires while Hamilton was on new tires. The VSC just trimmed about 3-4 laps from the time-frame in which they ended up nose to tail.

It's exactly the way to look at it. The VSC reduced the gap from 8s to nothing, while allowing Hamilton to get rid of the slower Medium compound early and forcing Vettel to compromise his own strategy to cover him off. Without it, it's highly likely that Lewis would have stayed out loner on the Mediums, thereby reducing the number of laps that he had available to catch Vettel anyway. And even if Lewis had caught Seb at the end, he would not have had the gift of completely fresh tyres that he did have in this race. The VSC was a race changer and anything but inconsequential


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'd agree Vettel came up short on Saturday but difficult to see what he did wrong today. He was done in by Bpttas and the VSC, otherwise a win was on the cards. Difficult to see what he could have done differently?


I think he could have waited for Ham to pit. Ham couldn't get closer than 2.5 seconds for most of the first stint, but as soon as he reduced the gap to 1.9 Vettel rushed into the pits. That gave Mercedes the opportunity to create a tire advantage towards the end of the race. Yes, very similar to what happened in Australia. Also it was always obvious that the medium tire was not going to be the tire of choice today. The goal should have been to get that medium tire stint over with as soon as possible. Saving the medium for the end put Vettel in a very vulnerable situation. I know some think Hamilton wouldn't have been able to overtake if he had to chase down Vettel at the end, but to me that is debatable. The difference between mediums and softs was huge today.

It was big, but the VSC helped Hamilton immensely. First, he got a free pit stop and neutralised an 8s advantage Vettel had in one stroke. Second, he came in a lot earlier than he otherwise would have done and had an extremely short stint on the Mediums. Without the VSC, Hamilton would have had to have chased Vettel for much longer and, although he may have caught him by the end, he would not have had the fresh tyre advantage he did have today and so overtaking would have been anything but a done deal. All the signs pointed to Vettel being in control of the race. Before the VSC, he was pulling away from Hamilton, meaning that the hill the latter would have had to climb would have been even bigger. Everything points to Vettel holding on for the win


He didn't get a free pitstop at all. It saved him 8 seconds. A free pitstop would have got him around 22 seconds. I don't agree that the VSC was inconsequential but it certainly didn't give him a free pitstop either.

Split hairs all you want but Hamilton would not have won without it

That's just your own thoughts on the matter. There is no concrete reason to believe that as Hamilton was faster than Vettel on those tires and had nearly half of the race to catch and pass him.


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:40 pm 
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Invade wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Anything but Hamilton might be wrong here, everything played in his hands saturday and sunday, both in qualifying with 0.05 s after engine troubles both for Bottas and Vettel, and then lost the start but got it back by VSC and Bottas holding Vettel up, a team effort.


That's why the season is as much about Kimi and Bottas as anyone else.


True and right now Bottas is the one who's making it closer between Vettel and Hamilton


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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Yeah that's the thing -- there was a LOT of the race left to catch.

I don't see it so clear-cut but do think that Vettel would have been the much more likely winner without the VSC.


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