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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:31 pm 
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Glasnost wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
I dont think Alonso will gain much with this move. From a midfield underpowered car to another a midfield underpowered car.

You have to think about the bigger picture. Do you really think that with Hamilton and Vettel both performing at a high level (and both younger than Alonso) there will be an available seat at either top team next year? Ask yourself this question; would either team be better off teaming Alonso with their top driver instead of Raikkonen/Bottas? I think the answer is obviously "no". It has nothing to do with his skill set; only the fact that he and the other top driver would hurt each other's chances at winning the WDC while the other top team would maximize their top driver's chances.

Most likely, Renault will be the logical choice for Alonso next year. I wouldn't be so quick to write them off either. I actually think they will overtake Red Bull by next year and potentially close up to the top two shortly after that. They are the works team here and their current car is strong enough that Alonso could probably get a couple of podium finishes in it this year. Massive engine upgrades are coming in the very near future...


I can't imagine Hulk enjoying the prospect of Alonso coming back on board with Renault. Especially not after a year of cementing his place as the leed driver, given his comments of driving for a works team being a dream of his i'd expect that he's quite happy at the moment.
I think of the current field Carlos Saints or even vandorne would be a better fit.
Though i doubt they could snaffle them on a contract.

When you drive for a factory team you can't expect to have easy teammates.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
I dont think Alonso will gain much with this move. From a midfield underpowered car to another a midfield underpowered car.

You have to think about the bigger picture. Do you really think that with Hamilton and Vettel both performing at a high level (and both younger than Alonso) there will be an available seat at either top team next year? Ask yourself this question; would either team be better off teaming Alonso with their top driver instead of Raikkonen/Bottas? I think the answer is obviously "no". It has nothing to do with his skill set; only the fact that he and the other top driver would hurt each other's chances at winning the WDC while the other top team would maximize their top driver's chances.

Most likely, Renault will be the logical choice for Alonso next year. I wouldn't be so quick to write them off either. I actually think they will overtake Red Bull by next year and potentially close up to the top two shortly after that. They are the works team here and their current car is strong enough that Alonso could probably get a couple of podium finishes in it this year. Massive engine upgrades are coming in the very near future...


I can't imagine Hulk enjoying the prospect of Alonso coming back on board with Renault. Especially not after a year of cementing his place as the leed driver, given his comments of driving for a works team being a dream of his i'd expect that he's quite happy at the moment.
I think of the current field Carlos Saints or even vandorne would be a better fit.
Though i doubt they could snaffle them on a contract.

When you drive for a factory team you can't expect to have easy teammates.


Oh you're absolutely right. But that wasn't my point, If I were him I'd be very happy with my position in the team and very much unhappy about the prospect of the likes of Alonso usurping my position.


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:10 am 
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Sainz to Renault if they can't get Alonso.


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Multi69 wrote:
Sainz to Renault if they can't get Alonso.

He might still be under contract to Red Bull for next year also there might be an opening at Red Bull for 2019 so he might see it worthwhile to stick around anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Multi69 wrote:
Sainz to Renault if they can't get Alonso.

He might still be under contract to Red Bull for next year also there might be an opening at Red Bull for 2019 so he might see it worthwhile to stick around anyway.

Seeing as how they didn't move any of their other junior drivers up to replace Kyvat this year my guess would be that that they want to hold on to Sainz in case Ricciardo moves on. The MO so far has been to let the cycle churn at Toro Rosso to keep fresh and promising talent involved while the Red Bull drivers are stable and let their losses come from there when one of those 2 decides to retire or move on.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:51 pm 
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Still no points for Palmer. Renault have been talking up Kubica alot lately... what are the chances of a driver swap soon?


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:51 am 
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Glasnost wrote:
Still no points for Palmer. Renault have been talking up Kubica alot lately... what are the chances of a driver swap soon?


Earliest - After summer break
Latest - 2018

I hope so.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:31 am 
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I'm starting to believe. At least for next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:47 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The problem is that Hulk isn't good enough. Perez was clearly stronger overall when they were teammates and Perez is not a top shelf guy IMO. Hulk is one of the better qualifiers in F1 in my estimation but on race day he's totally average. Sainze would be a good backup plan should Alonso not be interested.

If Hulk is totally average, who are the 10 drivers you think are better than him on race day?

1. Hamilton
2. Bottas
3. Vettel
4. Raikkonen (maybe being generous here)
5. Ricciardo
6. Verstappen
7. Perez
8. Ocon
9. Alonso
10. Sainze
11. Wehrlein

There is not a hope in hell that Hulk is only the 12th best driver in F1

There isn't much evidence to suggest that Bottas, Kimi, Ocon, Sainz or Wehrlein are conclusively better than him

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:54 am 
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Things looking a bit bleaker for Palmer
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130169/renault-feels-too-reliant-on-hulkenberg

Meanwhile in a Nigel Roebuck pay article (http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7573/f1-needs-kubica-back-and-honda-gone), the key part to take away was:
Frequently in times past Kubica lamented that, while he could - and did - compete in rallies once again, the post-accident shape of his right arm made it impossible to contemplate driving an F1 car again. Simply, it would be impossible for him to operate properly in the tight confines of the cockpit.

Now, though, the arm has been straightened to a point that this is no longer a problem, and Kubica was untroubled by it in the course of no fewer than 115 laps in the pre-hybrid 2.4-litre V8 car.

What's more, he greatly impressed those who conducted the test: on hand, too, was Sergey Sirotkin, currently Renault's third and reserve driver, and I'm told that Kubica comfortably outpaced him, both over one lap and a full race distance.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:56 am 
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So against the backdrop of Kubica doing a private test, having his performance publicly praised by Renault, and seeming like he's genuinely believing that a return to F1 is a possibility, Cyril Abiteboul has now said all this:

"No one is safe in F1. F1 is not an environment where anyone can say loudly, 'I'm safe'. To a certain degree there are two questions. There is Jo, and there is a second driver. Right now my focus is on Jo. Jo has to deliver. What would happen then, I don't want to elaborate on that, and even further, who would be stepping in, because that's absolutely not the point for today. The fact is that Jo has a car which is a point-scoring car, and he has to enter into the points. Full stop."

"I would hope that by the summer break I would be able to leave on holiday in sixth position in the championship."

"There is a bigger picture for the team, for Renault, for our partners, but also for the two guys racing the car. Right now I feel that it's a bit almost unfair to Nico, who has to do a lot. The team is clearly very dependent on him. You could see that in Monaco. When Nico is out of the game, including for reasons beyond his control like when he had his gearbox failure, we struggle to finish in the points, despite a number of cars that were also not finishing the race. It's a challenge. We see that there is a very substantial gap between Nico and Jo in qualifying, and in the race. We are discussing on a regular basis obviously with Jo to see how he can improve."

All from a Motorsport.com article today.

In a word: ouch. There are so many guys out there - Perez, Ocon, Grosjean, Sainz and a certain Fernando Alonso - who might be available next season that even an upturn in performance for the rest of 2017 probably doesn't stop Palmer being dropped. And with Kubica maybe waiting in the wings, if he's still not improved by the summer break then it wouldn't be a huge shock to see Robert in the car come Spa, assuming he's physically able to be.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:12 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
So against the backdrop of Kubica doing a private test, having his performance publicly praised by Renault, and seeming like he's genuinely believing that a return to F1 is a possibility, Cyril Abiteboul has now said all this:

"No one is safe in F1. F1 is not an environment where anyone can say loudly, 'I'm safe'. To a certain degree there are two questions. There is Jo, and there is a second driver. Right now my focus is on Jo. Jo has to deliver. What would happen then, I don't want to elaborate on that, and even further, who would be stepping in, because that's absolutely not the point for today. The fact is that Jo has a car which is a point-scoring car, and he has to enter into the points. Full stop."

"I would hope that by the summer break I would be able to leave on holiday in sixth position in the championship."

"There is a bigger picture for the team, for Renault, for our partners, but also for the two guys racing the car. Right now I feel that it's a bit almost unfair to Nico, who has to do a lot. The team is clearly very dependent on him. You could see that in Monaco. When Nico is out of the game, including for reasons beyond his control like when he had his gearbox failure, we struggle to finish in the points, despite a number of cars that were also not finishing the race. It's a challenge. We see that there is a very substantial gap between Nico and Jo in qualifying, and in the race. We are discussing on a regular basis obviously with Jo to see how he can improve."

All from a Motorsport.com article today.

In a word: ouch. There are so many guys out there - Perez, Ocon, Grosjean, Sainz and a certain Fernando Alonso - who might be available next season that even an upturn in performance for the rest of 2017 probably doesn't stop Palmer being dropped. And with Kubica maybe waiting in the wings, if he's still not improved by the summer break then it wouldn't be a huge shock to see Robert in the car come Spa, assuming he's physically able to be.


Ouch. Barring a remarkable turnaround in form, I feel he'll be lucky to complete the season.

I was defending him last year, I thought he was unlucky on many occasions last year, Australia really stuck in my mind as a great performance that didn't ultimately earn a point - but this year he has been woeful.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:22 am 
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Reading those words, it sounds like Abiteboul has pretty much made up his mind ans is already setting up Palmer's exit.

Won't be easy for Palmer.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:25 am 
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Herb wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
So against the backdrop of Kubica doing a private test, having his performance publicly praised by Renault, and seeming like he's genuinely believing that a return to F1 is a possibility, Cyril Abiteboul has now said all this:

"No one is safe in F1. F1 is not an environment where anyone can say loudly, 'I'm safe'. To a certain degree there are two questions. There is Jo, and there is a second driver. Right now my focus is on Jo. Jo has to deliver. What would happen then, I don't want to elaborate on that, and even further, who would be stepping in, because that's absolutely not the point for today. The fact is that Jo has a car which is a point-scoring car, and he has to enter into the points. Full stop."

"I would hope that by the summer break I would be able to leave on holiday in sixth position in the championship."

"There is a bigger picture for the team, for Renault, for our partners, but also for the two guys racing the car. Right now I feel that it's a bit almost unfair to Nico, who has to do a lot. The team is clearly very dependent on him. You could see that in Monaco. When Nico is out of the game, including for reasons beyond his control like when he had his gearbox failure, we struggle to finish in the points, despite a number of cars that were also not finishing the race. It's a challenge. We see that there is a very substantial gap between Nico and Jo in qualifying, and in the race. We are discussing on a regular basis obviously with Jo to see how he can improve."

All from a Motorsport.com article today.

In a word: ouch. There are so many guys out there - Perez, Ocon, Grosjean, Sainz and a certain Fernando Alonso - who might be available next season that even an upturn in performance for the rest of 2017 probably doesn't stop Palmer being dropped. And with Kubica maybe waiting in the wings, if he's still not improved by the summer break then it wouldn't be a huge shock to see Robert in the car come Spa, assuming he's physically able to be.


Ouch. Barring a remarkable turnaround in form, I feel he'll be lucky to complete the season.

I was defending him last year, I thought he was unlucky on many occasions last year, Australia really stuck in my mind as a great performance that didn't ultimately earn a point - but this year he has been woeful.


I'd actually be tempted to argue his performance probably isn't that far away from where it was in 2016, but the big difference this year is that instead of being alongside Kevin Magnussen, he's got Nico Hulkenberg as his teammate. I use Massa as an example: against Bottas he looked like a driver who should be retiring, whereas paired with Lance Stroll, you get the likes of Martin Brundle commentating (on multiple occasions) that he's driving as well as he has for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:31 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Herb wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
So against the backdrop of Kubica doing a private test, having his performance publicly praised by Renault, and seeming like he's genuinely believing that a return to F1 is a possibility, Cyril Abiteboul has now said all this:

"No one is safe in F1. F1 is not an environment where anyone can say loudly, 'I'm safe'. To a certain degree there are two questions. There is Jo, and there is a second driver. Right now my focus is on Jo. Jo has to deliver. What would happen then, I don't want to elaborate on that, and even further, who would be stepping in, because that's absolutely not the point for today. The fact is that Jo has a car which is a point-scoring car, and he has to enter into the points. Full stop."

"I would hope that by the summer break I would be able to leave on holiday in sixth position in the championship."

"There is a bigger picture for the team, for Renault, for our partners, but also for the two guys racing the car. Right now I feel that it's a bit almost unfair to Nico, who has to do a lot. The team is clearly very dependent on him. You could see that in Monaco. When Nico is out of the game, including for reasons beyond his control like when he had his gearbox failure, we struggle to finish in the points, despite a number of cars that were also not finishing the race. It's a challenge. We see that there is a very substantial gap between Nico and Jo in qualifying, and in the race. We are discussing on a regular basis obviously with Jo to see how he can improve."

All from a Motorsport.com article today.

In a word: ouch. There are so many guys out there - Perez, Ocon, Grosjean, Sainz and a certain Fernando Alonso - who might be available next season that even an upturn in performance for the rest of 2017 probably doesn't stop Palmer being dropped. And with Kubica maybe waiting in the wings, if he's still not improved by the summer break then it wouldn't be a huge shock to see Robert in the car come Spa, assuming he's physically able to be.


Ouch. Barring a remarkable turnaround in form, I feel he'll be lucky to complete the season.

I was defending him last year, I thought he was unlucky on many occasions last year, Australia really stuck in my mind as a great performance that didn't ultimately earn a point - but this year he has been woeful.


I'd actually be tempted to argue his performance probably isn't that far away from where it was in 2016, but the big difference this year is that instead of being alongside Kevin Magnussen, he's got Nico Hulkenberg as his teammate. I use Massa as an example: against Bottas he looked like a driver who should be retiring, whereas paired with Lance Stroll, you get the likes of Martin Brundle commentating (on multiple occasions) that he's driving as well as he has for a while.


Agreed. Once again F1 pundits fair to factor in the differing driver abilities. Palmer looked like he had an OK rookie season against Magnussen but has been shown up badly by Hulkenberg.

Magnussen meanwhile is now probably performing only a fraction less than Grosjean....


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:35 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Herb wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
So against the backdrop of Kubica doing a private test, having his performance publicly praised by Renault, and seeming like he's genuinely believing that a return to F1 is a possibility, Cyril Abiteboul has now said all this:

"No one is safe in F1. F1 is not an environment where anyone can say loudly, 'I'm safe'. To a certain degree there are two questions. There is Jo, and there is a second driver. Right now my focus is on Jo. Jo has to deliver. What would happen then, I don't want to elaborate on that, and even further, who would be stepping in, because that's absolutely not the point for today. The fact is that Jo has a car which is a point-scoring car, and he has to enter into the points. Full stop."

"I would hope that by the summer break I would be able to leave on holiday in sixth position in the championship."

"There is a bigger picture for the team, for Renault, for our partners, but also for the two guys racing the car. Right now I feel that it's a bit almost unfair to Nico, who has to do a lot. The team is clearly very dependent on him. You could see that in Monaco. When Nico is out of the game, including for reasons beyond his control like when he had his gearbox failure, we struggle to finish in the points, despite a number of cars that were also not finishing the race. It's a challenge. We see that there is a very substantial gap between Nico and Jo in qualifying, and in the race. We are discussing on a regular basis obviously with Jo to see how he can improve."

All from a Motorsport.com article today.

In a word: ouch. There are so many guys out there - Perez, Ocon, Grosjean, Sainz and a certain Fernando Alonso - who might be available next season that even an upturn in performance for the rest of 2017 probably doesn't stop Palmer being dropped. And with Kubica maybe waiting in the wings, if he's still not improved by the summer break then it wouldn't be a huge shock to see Robert in the car come Spa, assuming he's physically able to be.


Ouch. Barring a remarkable turnaround in form, I feel he'll be lucky to complete the season.

I was defending him last year, I thought he was unlucky on many occasions last year, Australia really stuck in my mind as a great performance that didn't ultimately earn a point - but this year he has been woeful.


I'd actually be tempted to argue his performance probably isn't that far away from where it was in 2016, but the big difference this year is that instead of being alongside Kevin Magnussen, he's got Nico Hulkenberg as his teammate. I use Massa as an example: against Bottas he looked like a driver who should be retiring, whereas paired with Lance Stroll, you get the likes of Martin Brundle commentating (on multiple occasions) that he's driving as well as he has for a while.


You may well be right. I dunno why, but I keep thinking of Magnussen as being on a Perez/Hulk kind of level*, but I think he has shown that he is just not up there. Having said that I've seen nothing from Palmer that has come close to his Oz '16 drive - he missed out on a point in a really poor car in that race.

*On a side note, Magnussen's career has really dissapointed hasn't it? I feel McLaren really slipped up when they opted for him over Perez.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:43 am 
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Herb wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Herb wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
So against the backdrop of Kubica doing a private test, having his performance publicly praised by Renault, and seeming like he's genuinely believing that a return to F1 is a possibility, Cyril Abiteboul has now said all this:

"No one is safe in F1. F1 is not an environment where anyone can say loudly, 'I'm safe'. To a certain degree there are two questions. There is Jo, and there is a second driver. Right now my focus is on Jo. Jo has to deliver. What would happen then, I don't want to elaborate on that, and even further, who would be stepping in, because that's absolutely not the point for today. The fact is that Jo has a car which is a point-scoring car, and he has to enter into the points. Full stop."

"I would hope that by the summer break I would be able to leave on holiday in sixth position in the championship."

"There is a bigger picture for the team, for Renault, for our partners, but also for the two guys racing the car. Right now I feel that it's a bit almost unfair to Nico, who has to do a lot. The team is clearly very dependent on him. You could see that in Monaco. When Nico is out of the game, including for reasons beyond his control like when he had his gearbox failure, we struggle to finish in the points, despite a number of cars that were also not finishing the race. It's a challenge. We see that there is a very substantial gap between Nico and Jo in qualifying, and in the race. We are discussing on a regular basis obviously with Jo to see how he can improve."

All from a Motorsport.com article today.

In a word: ouch. There are so many guys out there - Perez, Ocon, Grosjean, Sainz and a certain Fernando Alonso - who might be available next season that even an upturn in performance for the rest of 2017 probably doesn't stop Palmer being dropped. And with Kubica maybe waiting in the wings, if he's still not improved by the summer break then it wouldn't be a huge shock to see Robert in the car come Spa, assuming he's physically able to be.


Ouch. Barring a remarkable turnaround in form, I feel he'll be lucky to complete the season.

I was defending him last year, I thought he was unlucky on many occasions last year, Australia really stuck in my mind as a great performance that didn't ultimately earn a point - but this year he has been woeful.


I'd actually be tempted to argue his performance probably isn't that far away from where it was in 2016, but the big difference this year is that instead of being alongside Kevin Magnussen, he's got Nico Hulkenberg as his teammate. I use Massa as an example: against Bottas he looked like a driver who should be retiring, whereas paired with Lance Stroll, you get the likes of Martin Brundle commentating (on multiple occasions) that he's driving as well as he has for a while.


You may well be right. I dunno why, but I keep thinking of Magnussen as being on a Perez/Hulk kind of level*, but I think he has shown that he is just not up there. Having said that I've seen nothing from Palmer that has come close to his Oz '16 drive - he missed out on a point in a really poor car in that race.

*On a side note, Magnussen's career has really dissapointed hasn't it? I feel McLaren really slipped up when they opted for him over Perez.


Interestinglu people were saying exactly that 20 years ago!


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:23 pm 
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What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:26 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.


I was wondering about that too - but then I remembered that in exceptional circumstances, the FIA are allowed to ignore the points requirements. Can't remember the exact wording, but they gave themselves a loophole.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.


I was wondering about that too - but then I remembered that in exceptional circumstances, the FIA are allowed to ignore the points requirements. Can't remember the exact wording, but they gave themselves a loophole.


All he has to do is drive 300km over the course of a maximum of two days, do it "at representative speeds", and have this be judged by the FIA as "recently and consistently demonstrating outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars".

It'll be fine.

Relevant legislation:

Quote:
5.1.6 Except if the applicant qualifies under Article 5.1.7 a) or b), the
F1 Team concerned must show that the applicant has driven at
least 300 km in a representative Formula One car(1) consistently
at racing speeds, over a maximum period of 2 days, completed
not more than 180 days prior to the application, either certified by
the ASN of the country in which the test took place or during an
event counting for the FIA Formula One World Championship for
Drivers.

5.1.7 The driver must also satisfy at least one of the following
requirements:
a) Have accumulated at least 40 points during the three-year
period preceding his application (Championships and points listed
in Supplement 2.
b) Have been granted a Super Licence (excluding Free Practice
Only Super Licence) in any of the previous 3 seasons.
c) Have been granted a Super Licence prior to the previous 3
seasons (excluding Free Practice Only Super Licence). In this
case, the driver must be judged by the FIA to have recently and
consistently demonstrated outstanding ability in single-seater
formula cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:58 pm 
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mds wrote:
Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.


I was wondering about that too - but then I remembered that in exceptional circumstances, the FIA are allowed to ignore the points requirements. Can't remember the exact wording, but they gave themselves a loophole.


All he has to do is drive 300km over the course of a maximum of two days, do it "at representative speeds", and have this be judged by the FIA as "recently and consistently demonstrating outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars".

It'll be fine.

Relevant legislation:


According to Wiki, the Valencia Circuit is 4km long. He did 115 laps, which would equate to well over 400km. So presumably he would already have done enough to satisfy that requirement.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mds wrote:
Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.


I was wondering about that too - but then I remembered that in exceptional circumstances, the FIA are allowed to ignore the points requirements. Can't remember the exact wording, but they gave themselves a loophole.


All he has to do is drive 300km over the course of a maximum of two days, do it "at representative speeds", and have this be judged by the FIA as "recently and consistently demonstrating outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars".

It'll be fine.

Relevant legislation:


According to Wiki, the Valencia Circuit is 4km long. He did 115 laps, which would equate to well over 400km. So presumably he would already have done enough to satisfy that requirement.

A) So they didn't really change anything with that loophole (other than minimum age)
B) Job done then

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:19 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mds wrote:
Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.


I was wondering about that too - but then I remembered that in exceptional circumstances, the FIA are allowed to ignore the points requirements. Can't remember the exact wording, but they gave themselves a loophole.


All he has to do is drive 300km over the course of a maximum of two days, do it "at representative speeds", and have this be judged by the FIA as "recently and consistently demonstrating outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars".

It'll be fine.

Relevant legislation:


According to Wiki, the Valencia Circuit is 4km long. He did 115 laps, which would equate to well over 400km. So presumably he would already have done enough to satisfy that requirement.


It just needed to have been 'certified by the ASN of the country in which the test took place', if so (which I imagine it was), they have 6 months to apply for his Super License. Plenty of time.

This seems to more and more make sense to me. I start out thinking this was all just good PR for both Kubica and Renault, but I'm coming round to thinking it's a deliberate attempt to get him back into the seat.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mds wrote:
Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.


I was wondering about that too - but then I remembered that in exceptional circumstances, the FIA are allowed to ignore the points requirements. Can't remember the exact wording, but they gave themselves a loophole.


All he has to do is drive 300km over the course of a maximum of two days, do it "at representative speeds", and have this be judged by the FIA as "recently and consistently demonstrating outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars".

It'll be fine.

Relevant legislation:


According to Wiki, the Valencia Circuit is 4km long. He did 115 laps, which would equate to well over 400km. So presumably he would already have done enough to satisfy that requirement.


It just needed to have been 'certified by the ASN of the country in which the test took place', if so (which I imagine it was), they have 6 months to apply for his Super License. Plenty of time.

This seems to more and more make sense to me. I start out thinking this was all just good PR for both Kubica and Renault, but I'm coming round to thinking it's a deliberate attempt to get him back into the seat.


I suspect it was a test which was going to take place regardless. After all, he'd been building up to it for a little while now with the other tests he'd done, so whether it was with Renault or another team (he'd previously done some work in the Mercedes simulator, for instance) I think it was always going to happen. But with Palmer continuing to struggle, and Kubica's performance reportedly being very good, it looks like it is beginning to morph into a genuine opportunity for him to return. After all, dropping Palmer mid-season would be one thing, but you've got to be able to justify such a move by parachuting in a driver who you can be confident will represent an improvement. Not many such drivers out there. Pre-accident Kubica would absolutely have been one, but would they have enough confidence in him based on one test in a 2012 car to make such a move?

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:47 pm 
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The guy spent how many years trying to win GP2, he should be put out of his misery soon!


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
The guy spent how many years trying to win GP2, he should be put out of his misery soon!

0 years

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:29 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The problem is that Hulk isn't good enough. Perez was clearly stronger overall when they were teammates and Perez is not a top shelf guy IMO. Hulk is one of the better qualifiers in F1 in my estimation but on race day he's totally average. Sainze would be a good backup plan should Alonso not be interested.

If Hulk is totally average, who are the 10 drivers you think are better than him on race day?

1. Hamilton
2. Bottas
3. Vettel
4. Raikkonen (maybe being generous here)
5. Ricciardo
6. Verstappen
7. Perez
8. Ocon
9. Alonso
10. Sainze
11. Wehrlein

There is not a hope in hell that Hulk is only the 12th best driver in F1

There isn't much evidence to suggest that Bottas, Kimi, Ocon, Sainz or Wehrlein are conclusively better than him

Indeed

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:31 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Things looking a bit bleaker for Palmer
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130169/renault-feels-too-reliant-on-hulkenberg

Meanwhile in a Nigel Roebuck pay article (http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7573/f1-needs-kubica-back-and-honda-gone), the key part to take away was:
Frequently in times past Kubica lamented that, while he could - and did - compete in rallies once again, the post-accident shape of his right arm made it impossible to contemplate driving an F1 car again. Simply, it would be impossible for him to operate properly in the tight confines of the cockpit.

Now, though, the arm has been straightened to a point that this is no longer a problem, and Kubica was untroubled by it in the course of no fewer than 115 laps in the pre-hybrid 2.4-litre V8 car.

What's more, he greatly impressed those who conducted the test: on hand, too, was Sergey Sirotkin, currently Renault's third and reserve driver, and I'm told that Kubica comfortably outpaced him, both over one lap and a full race distance.

Right I wonder what had changed with Kubica that after all these years he was able to drive a F1 car again.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:35 pm 
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mds wrote:
Reading those words, it sounds like Abiteboul has pretty much made up his mind ans is already setting up Palmer's exit.

Won't be easy for Palmer.

I would say give him until the summer break to see if he improves, if he doesn't then get Kubica in the car which gives Renault a chance to evaluate him for next season.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:37 pm 
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Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.


I was wondering about that too - but then I remembered that in exceptional circumstances, the FIA are allowed to ignore the points requirements. Can't remember the exact wording, but they gave themselves a loophole.

I think having won a GP might be sufficient?

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:40 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The guy spent how many years trying to win GP2, he should be put out of his misery soon!

0 years

I believe he is referring to Palmer who spent 4 years in GP2.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Things looking a bit bleaker for Palmer
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130169/renault-feels-too-reliant-on-hulkenberg

Meanwhile in a Nigel Roebuck pay article (http://www.autosport.com/premium/feature/7573/f1-needs-kubica-back-and-honda-gone), the key part to take away was:
Frequently in times past Kubica lamented that, while he could - and did - compete in rallies once again, the post-accident shape of his right arm made it impossible to contemplate driving an F1 car again. Simply, it would be impossible for him to operate properly in the tight confines of the cockpit.

Now, though, the arm has been straightened to a point that this is no longer a problem, and Kubica was untroubled by it in the course of no fewer than 115 laps in the pre-hybrid 2.4-litre V8 car.

What's more, he greatly impressed those who conducted the test: on hand, too, was Sergey Sirotkin, currently Renault's third and reserve driver, and I'm told that Kubica comfortably outpaced him, both over one lap and a full race distance.

Right I wonder what had changed with Kubica that after all these years he was able to drive a F1 car again.

As with burn victims and those of us who've endured extreme surgeries that penetrate all the way through all tissues, it takes time to heal 100%. Sometimes it seems as though the process of healing is complete, but part of the healing process takes place over much greater periods of time because what is still not all the way healed is the elasticity of the tissues. Only through repeated use of the body part over extensive periods of time does elasticity return because in order to complete that process tissue needs to tear and re-heal many thousands of time before it's stretched and strengthened enough that it no longer places restrictions on the use of said areas/body parts.

I had my last hip surgery 2 over 2 years ago and I'm still feeling tightness in the incision and from experience I know I have about a year left for that to disappear completely.

Kubica's injuries tore through all tissues and broke his bones and then multiple surgeries means multiple stitches and cross mending of his tissues and for all that to get to a point where he feels comfortable enough to do this took time, and although he's finally to this level, I'm pretty sure that by doing this his tissues will heal ever further.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Reading those words, it sounds like Abiteboul has pretty much made up his mind ans is already setting up Palmer's exit.

Won't be easy for Palmer.

I would say give him until the summer break to see if he improves, if he doesn't then get Kubica in the car which gives Renault a chance to evaluate him for next season.


I wouldn't be waiting around if i were Renault... the mid-field fight is to close to balk on driver line up. With Palmer not scoring points they don't really have anything to lose.
If they bring in Kubica and he starts scoring points it's an international motorsport fairytale PR success story for Renault and they get to move up the WCC table.
If he doesn't. .. well they can claim Kubica just needs more time.


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Glasnost wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Reading those words, it sounds like Abiteboul has pretty much made up his mind ans is already setting up Palmer's exit.

Won't be easy for Palmer.

I would say give him until the summer break to see if he improves, if he doesn't then get Kubica in the car which gives Renault a chance to evaluate him for next season.


I wouldn't be waiting around if i were Renault... the mid-field fight is to close to balk on driver line up. With Palmer not scoring points they don't really have anything to lose.
If they bring in Kubica and he starts scoring points it's an international motorsport fairytale PR success story for Renault and they get to move up the WCC table.
If he doesn't. .. well they can claim Kubica just needs more time.

Well I said the summer break because that's when teams generally start making decisions on drivers, renewing contracts etc.

Another thing to consider with Palmer is how easy would it be to terminate his contract bearing in mind that he has paid to be in the car?

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:46 pm 
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he seems a nice guy so its sad to talk like this , but his 2018 seat looks like Alonso or could it be possible for kubica to fully comeback and wouldn't that be something and it would attract sponsorship big time

full marks to him for bravery and commitment, and wanting to come back after some big crashes in his career but i'm hoping it happens


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
The guy spent how many years trying to win GP2, he should be put out of his misery soon!

0 years

I believe he is referring to Palmer who spent 4 years in GP2.

...that makes a lot more sense. Totally forgot what thread we were in

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:04 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
mds wrote:
Herb wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
What would the work around for Kubica to get his super license? It's been more than 3 years since he held one and he certainly hasn't been running in any series that's been awarding him points toward one.


I was wondering about that too - but then I remembered that in exceptional circumstances, the FIA are allowed to ignore the points requirements. Can't remember the exact wording, but they gave themselves a loophole.


All he has to do is drive 300km over the course of a maximum of two days, do it "at representative speeds", and have this be judged by the FIA as "recently and consistently demonstrating outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars".

It'll be fine.

Relevant legislation:


According to Wiki, the Valencia Circuit is 4km long. He did 115 laps, which would equate to well over 400km. So presumably he would already have done enough to satisfy that requirement.

A) So they didn't really change anything with that loophole (other than minimum age)
B) Job done then


IIRC the first versions of the new super licence regulations had it covered and didn't allow for this anymore.
But then at one point (over a year ago) it reappeared in the regs...

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Palmer seems like a nice intelligent fellow, but he's had his chance and shown nothing to suggest there is potential beyond what we are seeing. Reminds me of the likes of Bruno Senna - feels like everyone wants to believe he is better than he actually is.

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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:48 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Palmer seems like a nice intelligent fellow, but he's had his chance and shown nothing to suggest there is potential beyond what we are seeing. Reminds me of the likes of Bruno Senna - feels like everyone wants to believe he is better than he actually is.



When he came to F1 first, I expected big things of him. His performance in his fp1 drives looked good compared to the main drivers, but it has not only not happened, but he now looks poor. Renault kept him on even with the results they had, I now wonder why? is he maybe a very good development driver or something? if so, he should go back to reserve driver and work the sim. he just is not up to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Renault & Palmer
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:10 am 
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moby wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Palmer seems like a nice intelligent fellow, but he's had his chance and shown nothing to suggest there is potential beyond what we are seeing. Reminds me of the likes of Bruno Senna - feels like everyone wants to believe he is better than he actually is.



When he came to F1 first, I expected big things of him. His performance in his fp1 drives looked good compared to the main drivers, but it has not only not happened, but he now looks poor. Renault kept him on even with the results they had, I now wonder why? is he maybe a very good development driver or something? if so, he should go back to reserve driver and work the sim. he just is not up to it.


Pretty much his entire resume reads like that of a driver who needs quite a bit of time to get acquainted with a new series/car. Never fast out of the box. So you'd have to wonder if he needs a few years to get a hold of GP2/F2, then how much time does he need to become decent in F1? Now given that the regulations just changed, that would be detrimental to him getting up to speed.

This is why junior series are so important, this is why a driver shouldn't get 4 years in GP2/F2, and why a driver is judged on his performances from the get go in junior series. It tests how adaptable a driver is, which is needed in F1 which changing cars and regulations.

And even then it's by no means a reliable measure - but at least it is one.

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