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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 52%  52%  [ 27 ]
Mercedes 48%  48%  [ 25 ]
Total votes : 52
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Vyse wrote:
I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.


Bottas' 1 lap pace has been very good, I don't think he could be asked to do any better except maybe China, but he was 0.180 behind Hamilton. Rosberg was out qualified by more than 0.350 8 times in 17 qualifying sessions they both competed in last season.

Bottas has 2 poles

He qualified with an old engine in Spain (so we can't draw a conclusion)

He qualified closer to Hamilton in Australia than Rosberg ever did in 4 attempts

He qualified 0.180 behind in China, a track Hamilton beat Rosberg 3-0. (+0.05, +2.3 sec in wet, +0.40)

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


Watching this you have just got to appreciate the analysis behind it, and sky with all the bling cant do something like this rather we get Anthony or whoever on the sky pad saying inconsequential things LOL!


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:11 am 
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Vyse wrote:
I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.

I don't think that Rosberg would have been looking to aide Hamilton with anything.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:13 am 
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lamo wrote:
Vyse wrote:
I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.


Bottas' 1 lap pace has been very good, I don't think he could be asked to do any better except maybe China, but he was 0.180 behind Hamilton. Rosberg was out qualified by more than 0.350 8 times in 17 qualifying sessions they both competed in last season.

Bottas has 2 poles

He qualified with an old engine in Spain (so we can't draw a conclusion)

He qualified closer to Hamilton in Australia than Rosberg ever did in 4 attempts

He qualified 0.180 behind in China, a track Hamilton beat Rosberg 3-0. (+0.05, +2.3 sec in wet, +0.40)

For the record Bottas has 1 pole position.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:17 am 
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lamo wrote:
Vyse wrote:
I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.


Bottas' 1 lap pace has been very good, I don't think he could be asked to do any better except maybe China, but he was 0.180 behind Hamilton. Rosberg was out qualified by more than 0.350 8 times in 17 qualifying sessions they both competed in last season.

Bottas has 2 poles

He qualified with an old engine in Spain (so we can't draw a conclusion)

He qualified closer to Hamilton in Australia than Rosberg ever did in 4 attempts

He qualified 0.180 behind in China, a track Hamilton beat Rosberg 3-0. (+0.05, +2.3 sec in wet, +0.40)

Bottas is off to a solid start but I think a lot of that is down to having his strongest circuit so early in the calendar. Bottas had a couple of podiums in Russia when he was driving the Williams. We need more time to make a meaningful comparison between him and Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:24 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:06 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.

I did watch it, yes. That's why I said "really good vid." How would this be unclear to you? Gave a good breakdown of the pair's qualifying laps


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.

I did watch it, yes. That's why I said "really good vid." How would this be unclear to you? Gave a good breakdown of the pair's qualifying laps

....and the second part of my sentence?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.

If his engine was turned down like you say then why was Vettel so astonished at the way Hamilton went past him, pure speculation on your part.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.

I did watch it, yes. That's why I said "really good vid." How would this be unclear to you? Gave a good breakdown of the pair's qualifying laps

....and the second part of my sentence?

Qualifying doesn't cover it?


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.

If his engine was turned down like you say then why was Vettel so astonished at the way Hamilton went past him, pure speculation on your part.


It is yeah but it's assumed Bottas turned his down for the same reasons so it would be a little strange for Ferrari to risk it but that's not to say it was never running full chat. He could well have turned it back up for those important battles like passing Bottas or defending from Lewis.

If he was astonished then i'd find that surprising. Softer compound+DRS would create a bigger performance gap than just turning your engine down so maybe a bit of hyperbole on Seb's part.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Merc (hamilton especially) was just getting consistently better exits at the final corner compared to the ferraris. If you saw onboards from friday practice both kimi and vettel were showing some pretty serious snap oversteer in that final corner. They apparently fixed that for qualifying by maybe dialing in some understeer, but that compromised their exit speed somewhat. Just my opinion.
So even though its proven ferrari was faster in the straights, mercs superior exit speed combined with the tire advantage and drs made passing vettel look "easy".


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.

If his engine was turned down like you say then why was Vettel so astonished at the way Hamilton went past him, pure speculation on your part.


It is yeah but it's assumed Bottas turned his down for the same reasons so it would be a little strange for Ferrari to risk it but that's not to say it was never running full chat. He could well have turned it back up for those important battles like passing Bottas or defending from Lewis.

If he was astonished then i'd find that surprising. Softer compound+DRS would create a bigger performance gap than just turning your engine down so maybe a bit of hyperbole on Seb's part.

Well he seemed to be totally aghast by it as he explained it all to Ricciardo in the cool down room.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.


I'm confused. Did he change the engine again after qualifying because he took a new one after the issue earlier in practice?
http://www.fia.com/file/56872/download?token=bp1clb6L


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.


I'm confused. Did he change the engine again after qualifying because he took a new one after the issue earlier in practice?
http://www.fia.com/file/56872/download?token=bp1clb6L


He didn't, the FIA were just in a mess all weekend with all the failures. They amended it a few hours later. He was using a new updated ICE(#2) in FP1/2 until the issue in FP3 and then reverted to ICE #1 from Oz-Russia with no update for Q+R.

http://www.fia.com/file/56876/download?token=x_KpGfK2

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


It looks like Hamilton took a perfect line through turns 14 and 15 while Vettel drove a bit too deep into 14. That seems to have decided the pole. On the other hand, Vettel's line through turn 9 was much better. The cars appear to be really closely matched, which is great!!!


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:24 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


It looks like Hamilton took a perfect line through turns 14 and 15 while Vettel drove a bit too deep into 14. That seems to have decided the pole. On the other hand, Vettel's line through turn 9 was much better. The cars appear to be really closely matched, which is great!!!


Seb apparently lost 4ths in just the penultimate corner. S3 there has been a bogey for him his entire career. Love his line and exit from T5 though but I did wonder if he used ers there and Lewis saved it for the exit of last corner because he goes away from Seb there. If we could see where they were deploying ers it would be even better.

Wish we could see things like this on Sky or CH4 in the UK. I'm sure they used to do something like it but no more.

Both cars look great yeah. The updates for Mercedes seemed to have cured any woes in the low speed at least for Lewis while Ferrari's high speed aero looks great still. Those side pods are a dream.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:35 pm 
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Ferrari were fastest in Barcelona. Vettel himself admitted over team radio that he effed up the final chicane otherwise he would have been on pole.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:06 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Ferrari were fastest in Barcelona. Vettel himself admitted over team radio that he effed up the final chicane otherwise he would have been on pole.

In fact it was almost neck and neck if you look at best sector times combined as IIRC both Hamilton and Vettel lost time in some sectors compared to their best ones. I think there was half a tenth in it at most from memory, it might have been on here actually.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:38 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Ferrari were fastest in Barcelona. Vettel himself admitted over team radio that he effed up the final chicane otherwise he would have been on pole.

In fact it was almost neck and neck if you look at best sector times combined as IIRC both Hamilton and Vettel lost time in some sectors compared to their best ones. I think there was half a tenth in it at most from memory, it might have been on here actually.


In my opinion it wasn't as close as the video is making it out, even though I love this video.

But the video compares Lewis's first lap and Seb's final lap. It doesn't take into account that Lewis was going quicker in his second lap until he blew sector 3. The track got faster towards the end. I reckon Lewis was on pace to run a 18.8-18.9. All he needed to do is replicate his previous sector 3 time. I don't think Seb lost a lot of time in S3 with his tiny error. The Ferrari was weaker there anyway all weekend and Seb admitted that it's not his favorite sector. I bet that if Lewis didn't get pole everyone would be talking about how he threw it away.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:32 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:

He didn't, the FIA were just in a mess all weekend with all the failures. They amended it a few hours later. He was using a new updated ICE(#2) in FP1/2 until the issue in FP3 and then reverted to ICE #1 from Oz-Russia with no update for Q+R.

http://www.fia.com/file/56876/download?token=x_KpGfK2


I took that to mean that he also took a new TC and MGU-H?
It gets confusing if they don't actually say they have mad a mistake and amend or delete the offending information.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129480

This seemed to suggest that Vettel took another new engine????


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:21 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


It looks like Hamilton took a perfect line through turns 14 and 15 while Vettel drove a bit too deep into 14. That seems to have decided the pole. On the other hand, Vettel's line through turn 9 was much better. The cars appear to be really closely matched, which is great!!!


Hamilton was 0.2 on Vettel on best sectors which could be a little misleading as it all depends on when you used the best of the tyres life, the fianl lap he had great S1 and S2, S3 was poor but I am not sure why.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:35 am 
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Both cars are evenly matched, it came down to the drivers who at certain points who made marginal errors which is expected if you on the limit.
I would say Merc has a slight advantage with the grunt of their engine which makes overtaking easier and allows to make up some deficit when an error is made in a corner.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Voting percentages being equal just shows that no one has any idea which is faster. I would also guess that many of the voters are biased, trying to prove their driver has the slower car. There are some good points being made from both sides but there are just to many factors you have to take into account. Only if one of the teams starts pulling away, then we can say for sure which car is better, but that's obvious isn't it?

If I was objective I would say I definitely don't know. But considering my bias towards Hamilton(which I believe is justified), I would obviously say Ferrari has had the better car this season.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

He didn't, the FIA were just in a mess all weekend with all the failures. They amended it a few hours later. He was using a new updated ICE(#2) in FP1/2 until the issue in FP3 and then reverted to ICE #1 from Oz-Russia with no update for Q+R.

http://www.fia.com/file/56876/download?token=x_KpGfK2


I took that to mean that he also took a new TC and MGU-H?
It gets confusing if they don't actually say they have mad a mistake and amend or delete the offending information.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129480

This seemed to suggest that Vettel took another new engine????


Yeah they should and there was a lot of confusion that weekend with Alonso's as well, I assume that was written before anyone spoke to Ferrari but only AMuS got it right through Bianca Leppert. He wen't back to ICE-1 but they stuck a new Turbo and MGU-H on it.



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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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