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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 37%  37%  [ 39 ]
Mercedes 63%  63%  [ 66 ]
Total votes : 105
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Vyse wrote:
I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.


Bottas' 1 lap pace has been very good, I don't think he could be asked to do any better except maybe China, but he was 0.180 behind Hamilton. Rosberg was out qualified by more than 0.350 8 times in 17 qualifying sessions they both competed in last season.

Bottas has 2 poles

He qualified with an old engine in Spain (so we can't draw a conclusion)

He qualified closer to Hamilton in Australia than Rosberg ever did in 4 attempts

He qualified 0.180 behind in China, a track Hamilton beat Rosberg 3-0. (+0.05, +2.3 sec in wet, +0.40)

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


Watching this you have just got to appreciate the analysis behind it, and sky with all the bling cant do something like this rather we get Anthony or whoever on the sky pad saying inconsequential things LOL!


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:11 am 
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Vyse wrote:
I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.

I don't think that Rosberg would have been looking to aide Hamilton with anything.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:13 am 
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lamo wrote:
Vyse wrote:
I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.


Bottas' 1 lap pace has been very good, I don't think he could be asked to do any better except maybe China, but he was 0.180 behind Hamilton. Rosberg was out qualified by more than 0.350 8 times in 17 qualifying sessions they both competed in last season.

Bottas has 2 poles

He qualified with an old engine in Spain (so we can't draw a conclusion)

He qualified closer to Hamilton in Australia than Rosberg ever did in 4 attempts

He qualified 0.180 behind in China, a track Hamilton beat Rosberg 3-0. (+0.05, +2.3 sec in wet, +0.40)

For the record Bottas has 1 pole position.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:17 am 
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lamo wrote:
Vyse wrote:
I wonder how Rosberg would be fairing if he decided not to quit. Personally I think Rosberg would have locked out the front row a few times with Hamilton, aiding Hamilton win another race or 2.


Bottas' 1 lap pace has been very good, I don't think he could be asked to do any better except maybe China, but he was 0.180 behind Hamilton. Rosberg was out qualified by more than 0.350 8 times in 17 qualifying sessions they both competed in last season.

Bottas has 2 poles

He qualified with an old engine in Spain (so we can't draw a conclusion)

He qualified closer to Hamilton in Australia than Rosberg ever did in 4 attempts

He qualified 0.180 behind in China, a track Hamilton beat Rosberg 3-0. (+0.05, +2.3 sec in wet, +0.40)

Bottas is off to a solid start but I think a lot of that is down to having his strongest circuit so early in the calendar. Bottas had a couple of podiums in Russia when he was driving the Williams. We need more time to make a meaningful comparison between him and Rosberg.


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:24 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.

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2015: 3rd Place
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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:06 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.

I did watch it, yes. That's why I said "really good vid." How would this be unclear to you? Gave a good breakdown of the pair's qualifying laps


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.

I did watch it, yes. That's why I said "really good vid." How would this be unclear to you? Gave a good breakdown of the pair's qualifying laps

....and the second part of my sentence?

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2016: 4th Place

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.

If his engine was turned down like you say then why was Vettel so astonished at the way Hamilton went past him, pure speculation on your part.

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 1:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.

I did watch it, yes. That's why I said "really good vid." How would this be unclear to you? Gave a good breakdown of the pair's qualifying laps

....and the second part of my sentence?

Qualifying doesn't cover it?


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 2:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.

If his engine was turned down like you say then why was Vettel so astonished at the way Hamilton went past him, pure speculation on your part.


It is yeah but it's assumed Bottas turned his down for the same reasons so it would be a little strange for Ferrari to risk it but that's not to say it was never running full chat. He could well have turned it back up for those important battles like passing Bottas or defending from Lewis.

If he was astonished then i'd find that surprising. Softer compound+DRS would create a bigger performance gap than just turning your engine down so maybe a bit of hyperbole on Seb's part.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Merc (hamilton especially) was just getting consistently better exits at the final corner compared to the ferraris. If you saw onboards from friday practice both kimi and vettel were showing some pretty serious snap oversteer in that final corner. They apparently fixed that for qualifying by maybe dialing in some understeer, but that compromised their exit speed somewhat. Just my opinion.
So even though its proven ferrari was faster in the straights, mercs superior exit speed combined with the tire advantage and drs made passing vettel look "easy".


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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.

If his engine was turned down like you say then why was Vettel so astonished at the way Hamilton went past him, pure speculation on your part.


It is yeah but it's assumed Bottas turned his down for the same reasons so it would be a little strange for Ferrari to risk it but that's not to say it was never running full chat. He could well have turned it back up for those important battles like passing Bottas or defending from Lewis.

If he was astonished then i'd find that surprising. Softer compound+DRS would create a bigger performance gap than just turning your engine down so maybe a bit of hyperbole on Seb's part.

Well he seemed to be totally aghast by it as he explained it all to Ricciardo in the cool down room.

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.


I'm confused. Did he change the engine again after qualifying because he took a new one after the issue earlier in practice?
http://www.fia.com/file/56872/download?token=bp1clb6L


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.

really good vid :thumbup:

Are you sure you watched it, Alex Yoong said the Ferrari was faster than the Mercedes down the straight in Barcelona.


In Q it has to be said though.

Seb was on an old engine like Bottas was after his own PU troubles on Saturday so there's a fair chance the Ferrari was turned down again in the race to avoid failure which might be why Ferrari chose the more conservative strategy rather than an attacking 3 stop.


I'm confused. Did he change the engine again after qualifying because he took a new one after the issue earlier in practice?
http://www.fia.com/file/56872/download?token=bp1clb6L


He didn't, the FIA were just in a mess all weekend with all the failures. They amended it a few hours later. He was using a new updated ICE(#2) in FP1/2 until the issue in FP3 and then reverted to ICE #1 from Oz-Russia with no update for Q+R.

http://www.fia.com/file/56876/download?token=x_KpGfK2

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


It looks like Hamilton took a perfect line through turns 14 and 15 while Vettel drove a bit too deep into 14. That seems to have decided the pole. On the other hand, Vettel's line through turn 9 was much better. The cars appear to be really closely matched, which is great!!!


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 9:24 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


It looks like Hamilton took a perfect line through turns 14 and 15 while Vettel drove a bit too deep into 14. That seems to have decided the pole. On the other hand, Vettel's line through turn 9 was much better. The cars appear to be really closely matched, which is great!!!


Seb apparently lost 4ths in just the penultimate corner. S3 there has been a bogey for him his entire career. Love his line and exit from T5 though but I did wonder if he used ers there and Lewis saved it for the exit of last corner because he goes away from Seb there. If we could see where they were deploying ers it would be even better.

Wish we could see things like this on Sky or CH4 in the UK. I'm sure they used to do something like it but no more.

Both cars look great yeah. The updates for Mercedes seemed to have cured any woes in the low speed at least for Lewis while Ferrari's high speed aero looks great still. Those side pods are a dream.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:35 pm 
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Ferrari were fastest in Barcelona. Vettel himself admitted over team radio that he effed up the final chicane otherwise he would have been on pole.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:06 pm 
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bonecrasher wrote:
Ferrari were fastest in Barcelona. Vettel himself admitted over team radio that he effed up the final chicane otherwise he would have been on pole.

In fact it was almost neck and neck if you look at best sector times combined as IIRC both Hamilton and Vettel lost time in some sectors compared to their best ones. I think there was half a tenth in it at most from memory, it might have been on here actually.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:38 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
Ferrari were fastest in Barcelona. Vettel himself admitted over team radio that he effed up the final chicane otherwise he would have been on pole.

In fact it was almost neck and neck if you look at best sector times combined as IIRC both Hamilton and Vettel lost time in some sectors compared to their best ones. I think there was half a tenth in it at most from memory, it might have been on here actually.


In my opinion it wasn't as close as the video is making it out, even though I love this video.

But the video compares Lewis's first lap and Seb's final lap. It doesn't take into account that Lewis was going quicker in his second lap until he blew sector 3. The track got faster towards the end. I reckon Lewis was on pace to run a 18.8-18.9. All he needed to do is replicate his previous sector 3 time. I don't think Seb lost a lot of time in S3 with his tiny error. The Ferrari was weaker there anyway all weekend and Seb admitted that it's not his favorite sector. I bet that if Lewis didn't get pole everyone would be talking about how he threw it away.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:32 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:

He didn't, the FIA were just in a mess all weekend with all the failures. They amended it a few hours later. He was using a new updated ICE(#2) in FP1/2 until the issue in FP3 and then reverted to ICE #1 from Oz-Russia with no update for Q+R.

http://www.fia.com/file/56876/download?token=x_KpGfK2


I took that to mean that he also took a new TC and MGU-H?
It gets confusing if they don't actually say they have mad a mistake and amend or delete the offending information.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129480

This seemed to suggest that Vettel took another new engine????


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:21 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
https://cdn-e2.streamable.com/video/mp4/nvsmo.mp4?token=1495985287_f9ce8f9023739e46a9c10c43dcbed6be0bb6c288

A must watch. Shows some interesting things plus the impact drivers and their lines can have in this debate.

Still too close for me to call.


It looks like Hamilton took a perfect line through turns 14 and 15 while Vettel drove a bit too deep into 14. That seems to have decided the pole. On the other hand, Vettel's line through turn 9 was much better. The cars appear to be really closely matched, which is great!!!


Hamilton was 0.2 on Vettel on best sectors which could be a little misleading as it all depends on when you used the best of the tyres life, the fianl lap he had great S1 and S2, S3 was poor but I am not sure why.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:35 am 
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Both cars are evenly matched, it came down to the drivers who at certain points who made marginal errors which is expected if you on the limit.
I would say Merc has a slight advantage with the grunt of their engine which makes overtaking easier and allows to make up some deficit when an error is made in a corner.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:59 pm 
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Voting percentages being equal just shows that no one has any idea which is faster. I would also guess that many of the voters are biased, trying to prove their driver has the slower car. There are some good points being made from both sides but there are just to many factors you have to take into account. Only if one of the teams starts pulling away, then we can say for sure which car is better, but that's obvious isn't it?

If I was objective I would say I definitely don't know. But considering my bias towards Hamilton(which I believe is justified), I would obviously say Ferrari has had the better car this season.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:35 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

He didn't, the FIA were just in a mess all weekend with all the failures. They amended it a few hours later. He was using a new updated ICE(#2) in FP1/2 until the issue in FP3 and then reverted to ICE #1 from Oz-Russia with no update for Q+R.

http://www.fia.com/file/56876/download?token=x_KpGfK2


I took that to mean that he also took a new TC and MGU-H?
It gets confusing if they don't actually say they have mad a mistake and amend or delete the offending information.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129480

This seemed to suggest that Vettel took another new engine????


Yeah they should and there was a lot of confusion that weekend with Alonso's as well, I assume that was written before anyone spoke to Ferrari but only AMuS got it right through Bianca Leppert. He wen't back to ICE-1 but they stuck a new Turbo and MGU-H on it.



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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:30 am 
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It's clear the Ferrari was the quicker car in Monaco, but whether that was helped by the nature of the circuit (SWB vs LWB) will become clearer after Canada.

But consider this. It's been taken pretty much as gospel that the Ferrari is much kinder to its tyres than the Mercedes and that is one of its biggest advantages. But Vettel pulled off his same "unleash the beast" trick on older tyres against Kimi that he had previously done against the Mercs. If that had been Bottas, or Hamilton, that Vettel had done it to I'm sure we'd again be reading about how he was able to do this because Ferrari was better than the Merc, etc. But he did it to his team mate. So isn't it possible that it's Vettel who's better on his tyres, rather than it being down to the car itself?


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:34 am 
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My stance has been spot on from day 1 and it's still that way. Ferrari have edged the best car on race day. They are incredibly close on qualifying pace - also circuit dependant.


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
It's clear the Ferrari was the quicker car in Monaco, but whether that was helped by the nature of the circuit (SWB vs LWB) will become clearer after Canada.

But consider this. It's been taken pretty much as gospel that the Ferrari is much kinder to its tyres than the Mercedes and that is one of its biggest advantages. But Vettel pulled off his same "unleash the beast" trick on older tyres against Kimi that he had previously done against the Mercs. If that had been Bottas, or Hamilton, that Vettel had done it to I'm sure we'd again be reading about how he was able to do this because Ferrari was better than the Merc, etc. But he did it to his team mate. So isn't it possible that it's Vettel who's better on his tyres, rather than it being down to the car itself?


Kimi never got to push for in laps, he was in tyre conservation mode and managing the race. He had +5 seconds to Bottas and the race won. He was told to pit half a lap before his stop. We don't know what Kimi could have done if told push hard and also had access to full engine modes for crazy in laps. Every car was quicker on the old US than the new SS. Max went marginally quicker on his new SS but that was due to being held up by Bottas when on the US.

Cars that were being held up flew once released - Ricciardo and Vettel.

On the best car - the Ferrari is the better car and a large part of that is how easy it is to dial in to every track. Both Mercedes drivers have struggled massively to dial there car in on different race weekends. Even fickle Kimi is getting that Ferrari dialled in.

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Last edited by lamo on Tue May 30, 2017 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:22 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's clear the Ferrari was the quicker car in Monaco, but whether that was helped by the nature of the circuit (SWB vs LWB) will become clearer after Canada.

But consider this. It's been taken pretty much as gospel that the Ferrari is much kinder to its tyres than the Mercedes and that is one of its biggest advantages. But Vettel pulled off his same "unleash the beast" trick on older tyres against Kimi that he had previously done against the Mercs. If that had been Bottas, or Hamilton, that Vettel had done it to I'm sure we'd again be reading about how he was able to do this because Ferrari was better than the Merc, etc. But he did it to his team mate. So isn't it possible that it's Vettel who's better on his tyres, rather than it being down to the car itself?


Kimi never got to push for in laps, he was in tyre conservation mode and managing the race. He had +5 seconds to Bottas and the race won. He was told to pit half a lap before his stop. We don't know what Kimi could have done if told push hard and also had access to full engine modes for crazy in laps.

No, we don't, but do you recall a race where Kimi showed particularly impressive tyre longevity this season? Because I seem to remember a lot of complaining from him in a number of races about how his tyres were going off. There's at least as much evidence to suggest it's driver related, if not more so, than there is to claim it's down to the car


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's clear the Ferrari was the quicker car in Monaco, but whether that was helped by the nature of the circuit (SWB vs LWB) will become clearer after Canada.

But consider this. It's been taken pretty much as gospel that the Ferrari is much kinder to its tyres than the Mercedes and that is one of its biggest advantages. But Vettel pulled off his same "unleash the beast" trick on older tyres against Kimi that he had previously done against the Mercs. If that had been Bottas, or Hamilton, that Vettel had done it to I'm sure we'd again be reading about how he was able to do this because Ferrari was better than the Merc, etc. But he did it to his team mate. So isn't it possible that it's Vettel who's better on his tyres, rather than it being down to the car itself?


Kimi never got to push for in laps, he was in tyre conservation mode and managing the race. He had +5 seconds to Bottas and the race won. He was told to pit half a lap before his stop. We don't know what Kimi could have done if told push hard and also had access to full engine modes for crazy in laps.

No, we don't, but do you recall a race where Kimi showed particularly impressive tyre longevity this season? Because I seem to remember a lot of complaining from him in a number of races about how his tyres were going off. There's at least as much evidence to suggest it's driver related, if not more so, than there is to claim it's down to the car


I do not know with regards to the entire season (maybe you are right, I haven't looked into it in much detail) but I was just speaking regarding Monaco, Vettels in laps can not be taken as him protecting the tyres more than Kimi. Kimi was coasting and pitted to get him out the way. He all saw that the new SS was slow but Ferrari put him onto it and brought him right out into traffic to win Vettel the race. They actually did that to perfection, it was quite hard to lose Kimi that race - without the traffic he still might have won it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:07 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's clear the Ferrari was the quicker car in Monaco, but whether that was helped by the nature of the circuit (SWB vs LWB) will become clearer after Canada.

But consider this. It's been taken pretty much as gospel that the Ferrari is much kinder to its tyres than the Mercedes and that is one of its biggest advantages. But Vettel pulled off his same "unleash the beast" trick on older tyres against Kimi that he had previously done against the Mercs. If that had been Bottas, or Hamilton, that Vettel had done it to I'm sure we'd again be reading about how he was able to do this because Ferrari was better than the Merc, etc. But he did it to his team mate. So isn't it possible that it's Vettel who's better on his tyres, rather than it being down to the car itself?


Kimi never got to push for in laps, he was in tyre conservation mode and managing the race. He had +5 seconds to Bottas and the race won. He was told to pit half a lap before his stop. We don't know what Kimi could have done if told push hard and also had access to full engine modes for crazy in laps.

No, we don't, but do you recall a race where Kimi showed particularly impressive tyre longevity this season? Because I seem to remember a lot of complaining from him in a number of races about how his tyres were going off. There's at least as much evidence to suggest it's driver related, if not more so, than there is to claim it's down to the car


I do not know with regards to the entire season (maybe you are right, I haven't looked into it in much detail) but I was just speaking regarding Monaco, Vettels in laps can not be taken as him protecting the tyres more than Kimi. Kimi was coasting and pitted to get him out the way. He all saw that the new SS was slow but Ferrari put him onto it and brought him right out into traffic to win Vettel the race. They actually did that to perfection, it was quite hard to lose Kimi that race - without the traffic he still might have won it.


Coasting? How exactly you saying this like Kimi is a rookie who does not understand what happens if you cant break away from the pack!


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Coasting - managing the lead at the front, he had 5 seconds to Bottas and was not vulnerable. The opposite to a rookie, a wise driver. Absolutely no reason to push at the front in Monaco. Track position is king, you just need a decent gap to prevent a potential undercut which he had to Bottas with 5 seconds and strategy preference over Vettel so no need to worry about him. Add that Vettel was probably quicker than him anyway so he couldn't have broken away even if he tried.

By coasting I also meant, Kimi had plenty of life in his tyres to push for in laps but never got to use them as he was told pit now half a lap before he was. No qualifying style max engine mode in laps like Vettel did.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:00 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Coasting - managing the lead at the front, he had 5 seconds to Bottas and was not vulnerable. The opposite to a rookie, a wise driver. Absolutely no reason to push at the front in Monaco. Track position is king, you just need a decent gap to prevent a potential undercut which he had to Bottas with 5 seconds and strategy preference over Vettel so no need to worry about him. Add that Vettel was probably quicker than him anyway so he couldn't have broken away even if he tried.

By coasting I also meant, Kimi had plenty of life in his tyres to push for in laps but never got to use them as he was told pit now half a lap before he was. No qualifying style max engine mode in laps like Vettel did.


Saying that like Bottas was the one directly behind him, while Vettel was closing the gap to a second or less!


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Coasting - managing the lead at the front, he had 5 seconds to Bottas and was not vulnerable. The opposite to a rookie, a wise driver. Absolutely no reason to push at the front in Monaco. Track position is king, you just need a decent gap to prevent a potential undercut which he had to Bottas with 5 seconds and strategy preference over Vettel so no need to worry about him. Add that Vettel was probably quicker than him anyway so he couldn't have broken away even if he tried.

By coasting I also meant, Kimi had plenty of life in his tyres to push for in laps but never got to use them as he was told pit now half a lap before he was. No qualifying style max engine mode in laps like Vettel did.


Saying that like Bottas was the one directly behind him, while Vettel was closing the gap to a second or less!


Ferrari pitted him to "cover Bottas", he had Vettel covered. He was in his team and if they are equal number 1's then he would get the A strategy. However he got the B strategy. Vettel was quicker I am sure but Kimi had track position and that wins you the race in Monaco unless your pit wall messes up your strategy.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Will be interesting to see how this debate continues through the season :)

I'm of the opinion that Ferrari have built a better race car then Mercedes, and have a better understanding of the tyres. Pretty much all of Mercedes' problems have stemmed from the tyres, i've heard and read that the car set up is in on a kinfe-edge in terms of extracting the most performance consistantly.

It may be that the Ferrari chassis is slightly more supple and forgiving, and therefore while it warms the tyres up better it doesn't stress them so much. Toro Rosso's cars have been like this for as long as i can remember - it's my theory as to why they are always so good in the rain.

The next race in Canada could go either way. Someone was saying that Merc were struggling with traction in Monaco (maybe Di Resta during the race coverage), and there are a lot of heavy traction zones in Canada. Do Merc still have the edge in terms of outright horse power? Plus they are slightly overweight and heavier than Ferrari. Not so good for acceleration.

If they do, is their car just too big? It will be absolutley mega at Silverstone and Spa, but as just witnessed in Monaco the more nimble Ferrari was much stronger in the twisties. Suzuka couldl be very interesting.

Agree with the posters that have said that Merc look to have more trouble in traffic - that's been a problem of theirs for a few seasons now. This leaves them with a slightly narrower window of opportunty in regards to strategy. They have to make sure they pit into clean air in order to put the laptimes in. Vettel has made a few great overtakes this year as well, showing that (if the circuit layout is conducive to it) a make-or-break move is possible in the Ferrari.

On numerous occasions this season it has looked like the Merc may be outright faster car however. The drivers for both teams can make a difference between a good and great result, and strategy is as important as ever. Reliability has been pretty even, although it depends what you read regarding Ferrari's turbochargers.

I tried writing this with a balanced view, pointing out that each car has it's advantages over the other. But reading it back it seems that most every point is an advantage to Ferrari! No doubt Mercedes will go on to win the next five or six consecutive races now :lol: .

TL:DR? Ferrari, as it's seems more a 'proper' race car - a bit racier, slightly smaller and more nimble, and (in proper boy-racer parlance) thrashable. But the Mercedes is still a beast.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 8:39 pm 
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I think the Ferrari is relatively speaking better at tracks where it is not the best, if you see what I mean.

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Vettel would've probably won Barcelona and China had it not been for bad luck with VSC.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:30 am 
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Mercedes is faster at race circuits on low fuel.

Ferrari is overall more all round car than Mercedes. They havent really struggled in any races so far. They lost at least 2 victories due to things that were out of their control. They could have potentially won all races so far had it not been for unfortunate timings of VSC and SC. I wont blame traffic as part of one of the reasons because that is racing for you. Happens to everyone at the top at some time or other.

But Mercedes still maintains that ultimate 1 lap pace when they get things right or at traditional race tracks. They have that more 1 lap power from their power unit.

But Ferrari is better overall car which works everywhere and is either fastest or very very close second regardless of the track and conditions.

The real showdown will begin after summer break. I fully expect Mercedes to tweak the issues they are having now with setup and chassis post summer break. That is when we will see real battle unfold.


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 6:11 am 
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I think Mercedes is probably the better car but the Ferrari boys are better at setting up their car to get the tyres working in the optimum window.

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