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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll ended at Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 37%  37%  [ 44 ]
Mercedes 63%  63%  [ 74 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:56 am 
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I was with him up until Italy - he's harsh on himself there; then Singapore a 1 - just no

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:01 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
I was with him up until Italy - he's harsh on himself there; then Singapore a 1 - just no

I have to scratch my head about Mexico; considering what he did on the first lap.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:39 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:24 am 
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I have Brazil as 9.5 9.5 and 9.5 9.5.

I just think Hamilton had the pace. I don't see a qualifying edge to speak of - maybe a tenth one way or the other and basically equal.

Unsure on if RB had a faster race car than Ferrari for Mexico. RB possibly had more ultimate qualifying pace however, though it seemed to be much harder to extract but that might be down to Vettel's knowhow over Verstappen's.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:35 am 
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Pretty obvious Mercedes have had a quali advantage this year. In the races I have it 179 to 178 in Mercedes advantage, seems about right to me with Mercedes having a slight advantage but Vettels driving and reliability making the gap look bigger than it should be. Plus Hamilton scored big points in Singapore and Malaysia which was Ferrari tracks with both cars taken out the equation. Hamilton has also had the much better number 2 driver, Kimi borders nearly on useless if you want him to take points off your rival.

If Pirelli deliver next year on softer tyres and a even softer compound than the US then hopefully this can give Ferrari an advantage. No point in a good race car when nearly every race is a one stopper and your main rival is too good over one lap.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:44 am 
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Invade wrote:
I have Brazil as 9.5 9.5 and 9.5 9.5.

I just think Hamilton had the pace. I don't see a qualifying edge to speak of - maybe a tenth one way or the other and basically equal.

Unsure on if RB had a faster race car than Ferrari for Mexico. RB possibly had more ultimate qualifying pace however, though it seemed to be much harder to extract but that might be down to Vettel's knowhow over Verstappen's.


Swap Mercedes and Ferrari around in Mexico qualifying and it would be 10-8 ;)

I was just reading Hamilton made 3-5 seconds on the strategy he had over a race distance plus 5 seconds he lost due to the pit lane start. Reading all the stats from the new engine used like Hamilton still had 14 overtake boosts to use at one point in the race, he could thrash his engine from beginning to end with an additional 15hp, I can’t compare the cars with how ridiculous the engine was.

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Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:10 am 
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Invade wrote:
I have Brazil as 9.5 9.5 and 9.5 9.5.

I just think Hamilton had the pace. I don't see a qualifying edge to speak of - maybe a tenth one way or the other and basically equal.

Unsure on if RB had a faster race car than Ferrari for Mexico. RB possibly had more ultimate qualifying pace however, though it seemed to be much harder to extract but that might be down to Vettel's knowhow over Verstappen's.

Hamilton would have taken an easy pole had he not crashed based on pretty much the whole year so far.

In the race I could agree with a 9.5 but I think you have to make some big assumptions as to how much Vettel was cruising to get it to that so I’d be more confident with 10-9.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I have Brazil as 9.5 9.5 and 9.5 9.5.


Given how much faster Hamilton has been in qualifying, I'm not really doubting the Mercedes was easily the fastest car in qualifying. Vettel might have shouldered the blame for not getting pole, but it's become his normal reaction to being beaten: it's always him, never the car. Hamilton has been able to put a few tenths between him and Bottas in most qualifying sessions lately, and I would find it a huge coincidence that the first time Hamilton can't show it and so we can't compare them, Bottas all of a sudden gets the most out of the Mercedes.

As for race pace, also going with the Merc, for largely the same reason.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Through FP3 Mercedes and Ferrari were very close on one-lap pace and by the end of qualifying it was the same story and Lewis didn't have much over Bottas it seemed. Bottas put in a clean lap and Vettel made one error which cost him pole and if Lewis had done the same error I presume he'd have also been slightly behind Bottas in qualifying.

As for the race, I don't really know how much managing Vettel was having to do but I think Hamilton's form was rare in the race pace he produced and that he himself made a lot of the difference on this occasion, albeit aided by several other factors such as his PU, his strategy and fresh tyres.

Vettel's pace was pretty ordinary and Kimi found it easy enough to produce a similar pace. Bottas wasn't able to even get close enough to Vettel over a short period of laps at some stage during the first stint as the stop window opened up to give a positive undercut chance and thereafter put up a tame challenge with no phases of true pressure. So I see the cars as quite equal in race pace with Hamilton producing a rare display of ferocious race pace.

It's close enough for me that I won't make a decision either way hence the 9.5s.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:39 pm 
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I think if Bottas is matching Vettel then you have to go with Mercedes being better...

Imagine if Vettel retired from qualifying and Kimi went on to be just 0.038 behind Hamilton - we would all think Ferrari was better. I know Bottas is slightly better than Kimi but the point still holds.

Ferrari was a solid car in Brazil and Brazil is Hamiltons weakest track over 1 lap, but I still think he would have had pole by probably less than a tenth over Bottas.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:45 pm 
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The problem is that Kimi easily held on to the pace of the two leaders which leads me to think that either Vettel's pace in the race was pretty unimpressive or that he had pace in hand, always had Bottas under control (Bottas never actually got close to attacking him) and managed his race. But that does make me wonder about Ferrari and why the lead driver in clean air may have had problems with race management - maybe Vettel had to push very hard but nonetheless it was hard enough to make Bottas a non-threat and Kimi could basically keep up so I'd wager Vettel had slower race pace than what we'd typically expect and the relatively mediocre Bottas and Kimi were able to tag along.

I dunno what others would be saying if it were reversed but if Vettel produced that drive and Ham had Kimi in hand by 2-3 seconds, whom was also never attacked by Bottas, who still easily enough clung onto the top 2, I'd say that the cars had roughly equal race pace.

The caveat here is that I'm saying it's equal under the assumption the engine situation was fair, as in reality the car that Hamilton was specifically driving was also slightly inherently faster due to the new PU but I'm allowing for that.

edits: terrible sentence structure (still is).


Last edited by Invade on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:45 pm 
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I think the main problem is that there is essentially 1 dead data point out of 4 every race. Kimi's results and performance tell you nothing these days. This is the first year in a very long time where driver performance is being chalked up to the car (and not the other way around).


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Invade wrote:
The problem is that Kimi easily held on to the pace of the two leaders which leads me to think that either Vettel's pace in the race was pretty unimpressive or that he had pace in hand, always had Bottas under control (Bottas never actually got close to attacking him) and managed his race. But that does make me wonder about Ferrari and why the lead driver in clean air may have had problems with race management - maybe Vettel had to push very hard but nonetheless it was hard enough to make Bottas a non-threat and Kimi could basically keep up so I'd wager Vettel had slower race pace than what we'd typically expect and the relatively mediocre Bottas and Kimi were able to tag along.

I dunno what others would be saying if it were reversed but if Vettel produced that drive and Ham had Kimi in hand by 2-3 seconds, whom was also never attacked by Bottas, who still easily enough clung onto the top 2, I'd say that the cars had roughly equal race pace.

The caveat here is that I'm saying it's equal under the assumption the engine situation was fair, as in reality the car that Hamilton was specifically driving was also slightly inherently faster due to the new PU but I'm allowing for that.

edits: terrible sentence structure (still is).


Yes it is a very hard race to read-

1) Because Hamilton had modes to spare and wasn't driving a "normal car". So do you use a normal Mercedes car or Hamiltons engine modes to spare / set up perfectly for the race car to judge the Mercedes race pace? No doubt he gained at least a couple of tenths per lap out of those and if he had started on pole in his normal car he wouldn't have been so quick.

2) Vettel said he pushed every lap and yet Kimi finished 4 seconds behind. That is a bit curious. If Hamilton said he pushed every lap and Bottas finished 4 seconds behind then I would personally think Hamilton had a relatively poor race actually as he normally smashes Bottas for race pace - the same for Vettel and Kimi.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Race:

Yeah - it is curious and hard to read and I think Vettel showing less race pace superiority than usual and Hamilton showing more makes it difficult to place but I'd say the evidence points to Vettel winning the race "slowly" per se, whether it be through management or lack of true pace and that combined with Hamilton putting in rare pace might distort the picture.

I agree with you that if we judge the best race car by pure pace then you have to give it to Merc-Ham regardless of Ham's form because of the advantage the PU must surely have given him, but he was only in such a position due to what happened in qualifying, so it's not easy to place and then imagine Hamilton with his previous PU or Vettel with a brand new one at the back. I do think on the weekend though that Hamilton just had the best raw pace and form regardless of the car but again he had several advantages in making this a possibility aside from the PU. It's not black and white but I definitely give Hamilton himself a fair chunk of credit for that pace.

Qualifying:

However, I can understand the viewpoint of awarding Merc 10s for both quali and the race based on the tale of the season but really when looking through FP3 onwards there was nothing to really suggest that the cars would determine pole position but rather the drivers. Bottas did put in a very nice lap with no errors and barely got pole.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:25 pm 
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You should really not include FP results into any decision making.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:30 pm 
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It's the same when just looking at qualifying for all 3 sessions - FP3 just bolstered the perception I had about the one-lap pace over the weekend.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:23 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
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Totally disagree with this assessment. This is an assessment that makes the assumption of equality between drivers' performances. I disagree with at least 8 of these scores.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
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Totally disagree with this assessment. This is an assessment that makes the assumption of equality between drivers' performances. I disagree with at least 8 of these scores.


Sandman, could you post your scores for quali and race?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Invade wrote:
It's the same when just looking at qualifying for all 3 sessions - FP3 just bolstered the perception I had about the one-lap pace over the weekend.


Even Q1 and Q2 mean essentially nothing when you're in a RB13, W08 or SF70H :)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:42 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
performances. I disagree with at least 8 of these scores.


The main one that stands out to me is Mexico qualifying, that is the only time the pole sitter hasn't got a 10 for qualifying in the entire list?

I assume because Max would have got pole using best sectors from Q2 but this ignores that the track temperature went up for Q3 and subsequently slower. It also ignores the other occasions when a driver would have had pole on best sectors, like Vettel in Spain.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:47 pm 
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lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
performances. I disagree with at least 8 of these scores.


The main one that stands out to me is Mexico qualifying, that is the only time the pole sitter hasn't got a 10 for qualifying in the entire list? It also ignores the other occasions when a driver would have had pole on best sectors, like Vettel in Spain.

A couple of points:

1. I gave both Mercedes and Ferrari a 9.5 for Spain qualifying

2. Hamilton's ultimate laptime in Q3 for Spain was an 1:18.9 and quicker than Vettel.

3. Max was quicker than Vettel all throughout qualifying until the final run in Q3, where Max did not improve while Seb did.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:34 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
performances. I disagree with at least 8 of these scores.


The main one that stands out to me is Mexico qualifying, that is the only time the pole sitter hasn't got a 10 for qualifying in the entire list? It also ignores the other occasions when a driver would have had pole on best sectors, like Vettel in Spain.

A couple of points:

1. I gave both Mercedes and Ferrari a 9.5 for Spain qualifying

2. Hamilton's ultimate laptime in Q3 for Spain was an 1:18.9 and quicker than Vettel.

3. Max was quicker than Vettel all throughout qualifying until the final run in Q3, where Max did not improve while Seb did.

Points 2 and 3 illustrate a lack of understanding. Ferrari only get the one golden lap in Q3, wheres Mercedes get 2 and Red Bull get none. Ferrari's last lap will always be their quickest because they get one lap in that mode. Go back and look at the gap between Vettel's first Q3 lap and his second one in Mexico for example.

For point 2, you are again, only looking at the result and attributing it to the car, despite the fact that Vettel made a mistake that cost him pole in Spain. Fastest sector times are not always possible to string together by the way. Sometimes taking the performance out of the tires in one sector will mean that it isn't there for another sector. Your overall thought process seems to be looking at Hamilton's fastest times and then saying that they are the norm for the car while ignoring almost everything else...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Yeah, I've said the same things recently. It isn't reliable to look at the aggregate optimal times given the "golden lap" opportunities Ferrari and Mercedes tend to have. I got the impression though that with the title races over that Ferrari extended the use of their best PU mode through qualifying in Brazil.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:26 pm 
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mds wrote:
Invade wrote:
It's the same when just looking at qualifying for all 3 sessions - FP3 just bolstered the perception I had about the one-lap pace over the weekend.


Even Q1 and Q2 mean essentially nothing when you're in a RB13, W08 or SF70H :)


There is something to this, though Ferrari bridged the gap in modes tremendously as the season went on. Overall for the year I undoubtedly have Mercedes as the best qualifying car but just didn't see an edge in Brazil specifically, but perhaps it's because it's not a "Ham track" and he underperformed. Still, it is telling to me that Bottas barely squeaked out pole with a clean lap even with Vettel making a significant mistake and with Kimi admitting he didn't have the best of it in qualifying.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:50 am 
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Aren't you making a bit too much out of that "mistake"? By his own account he braked just a little too early. But if he hadn't said anything maybe nobody would have known in the first place. That was not a significant mistake. It's become a bit of a pattern, every time Vettel doesn't win or doesn't get pole he wants to shoulder the blame for himself, and never the team.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
For point 2, you are again, only looking at the result and attributing it to the car, despite the fact that Vettel made a mistake that cost him pole in Spain. Fastest sector times are not always possible to string together by the way. Sometimes taking the performance out of the tires in one sector will mean that it isn't there for another sector. Your overall thought process seems to be looking at Hamilton's fastest times and then saying that they are the norm for the car while ignoring almost everything else...

I corrected lamo who claimed that Vettel's combined best sector times were quicker than Hamilton. This is not the case;

Hamilton's best possible lap in Q3 was a 1:18.914
Vettel's best possible lap was a 1:19.172

I never claimed that Mercedes was better than Ferrari at Spain (in fact I rated them equal in qualifying), I just pointed out that lamo's claim was incorrect.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:31 pm 
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mds wrote:
Aren't you making a bit too much out of that "mistake"? By his own account he braked just a little too early. But if he hadn't said anything maybe nobody would have known in the first place. That was not a significant mistake. It's become a bit of a pattern, every time Vettel doesn't win or doesn't get pole he wants to shoulder the blame for himself, and never the team.


Well he could hardly blame the team for Singapore/Baku/Canada/Mexico/Silverstone! :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Russia is still a weird one for me to pin solely on Lewis. I've never seen a driver forget how to drive an entire sector before. And for an entire weekend no less.

Its just a bit weird so I think a case can be made there was something car related going on as he was perfectly fine in S3 in previous years was he not?. And if it was a mistake in S3, how on earth do you manage to repeat it every lap, every session, all weekend?.

I wouldn't expect that from Palmer never mind an ATG so its a bit dodgy for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:58 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:25 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


You tend to do that when you have a much faster car.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:26 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


You tend to do that when you have a much faster car.


Agreed but completely irrelevant in this case.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


You tend to do that when you have a much faster car.


Agreed but completely irrelevant in this case.


Why, he claims that reliability and a better car is a part of what happened this year, which part is in your opinion irrelevant?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


If both of the drivers had been perfect, then Hamilton still wins the title. Vettel didn't make that many actual mistakes. Baku being the most obvious one. But then... Singapore was really an unfortunate racing incident than that it was a mistake, the manoeuvre was not unusual.

Mexico was a mistake, but actually benefitted him in the title race or was, at worst, neutral.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:17 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


You tend to do that when you have a much faster car.


Vettel had the faster car in Singapore and Mexico when he made mistakes. Singapore being the major one which caused a big points swing. Also Baku but he had the 2nd fastest car.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:21 pm 
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mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


If both of the drivers had been perfect, then Hamilton still wins the title. Vettel didn't make that many actual mistakes. Baku being the most obvious one. But then... Singapore was really an unfortunate racing incident than that it was a mistake, the manoeuvre was not unusual.

Mexico was a mistake, but actually benefitted him in the title race or was, at worst, neutral.

Mexico benefited Vettel in scoring more points than Hamilton but only because the stewards chose not to penalise him in the way lets say that they chose to penalise Grosjean against Ocon in Brazil.

The reality though is that he needed to finish at least second and the mistake prevented him from doing that so it still very much was a mistake that counted.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:23 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


You tend to do that when you have a much faster car.


Vettel had the faster car in Singapore and Mexico when he made mistakes. Singapore being the major one which caused a big points swing. Also Baku but he had the 2nd fastest car.

It's still extremely debatable whether he made a mistake in Singapore


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
The reality though is that he needed to finish at least second and the mistake prevented him from doing that so it still very much was a mistake that counted.


No, it did not count. If he hadn't made the contact, then Hamilton is in third instead of at the back, and Hamilton still celebrates a title won.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Just like Hamilton can hardly blame the team for Bahrain/Russia/Monaco/Brazil, but he's won the WDC regardless because of better reliability and a better car in qualifying.


And because he has made less mistakes.


You tend to do that when you have a much faster car.


Vettel had the faster car in Singapore and Mexico when he made mistakes. Singapore being the major one which caused a big points swing. Also Baku but he had the 2nd fastest car.

It's still extremely debatable whether he made a mistake in Singapore


I wouldn’t say so but we all have our own opinion. Everything I heard or read put more blame on Vettel than any other driver. Also is it worth taking the risk at a track which is having its very first wet race were you have a great chance of taking the championship lead whatever in a car which will dominate the race.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:50 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
AnRs wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

And because he has made less mistakes.


You tend to do that when you have a much faster car.


Vettel had the faster car in Singapore and Mexico when he made mistakes. Singapore being the major one which caused a big points swing. Also Baku but he had the 2nd fastest car.

It's still extremely debatable whether he made a mistake in Singapore


I wouldn’t say so but we all have our own opinion. Everything I heard or read put more blame on Vettel than any other driver. Also is it worth taking the risk at a track which is having its very first wet race were you have a great chance of taking the championship lead whatever in a car which will dominate the race.

Only he didn't take much of a risk. It wasn't exactly foreseen that Kimi would have made one of the best starts of the season and without that Vettel would have been home and dry. The risk was comparatively small; it's just the consequences that were major.

I doubt we'll convince each other either way but the point I was making was that it's at least highly debatable, so can't be counted as a definite mistake in the way that e.g. Baku was


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