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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 38%  38%  [ 45 ]
Mercedes 62%  62%  [ 73 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:09 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think Vettel defended pretty poor against Hamilton, if he just went on the inside Hamilton wouldn’t have got past. I don’t know what Vettel was like before the race and over the weekend in general but he seemed pretty down in his interview and loss of practice time with what happened in Japan and Malaysia was probably the last straw.

If that was Danny, Max or even Bottas then Hamilton wouldn’t have got past in the same scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEUQNBd0wto
He certainly left the door wide open. Hamilton came from quite far back there.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:23 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
If we are suddenly going to use Bottas and Raikkonen as yardsticks, is it safe to call Mercedes the best car in Australia? And for most of the season, in fact, since Bottas is clearly ahead of Kimi in the standings.

The reality of the situation is that Bottas is no more of a yardstick than Kimi is.



Gap to team mate is a good yard stick, if Bottas or Kimi are within 0.100 of their team mates, I would say their team mate has under performed.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:52 am 
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lamo wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If we are suddenly going to use Bottas and Raikkonen as yardsticks, is it safe to call Mercedes the best car in Australia? And for most of the season, in fact, since Bottas is clearly ahead of Kimi in the standings.

The reality of the situation is that Bottas is no more of a yardstick than Kimi is.



Gap to team mate is a good yard stick, if Bottas or Kimi are within 0.100 of their team mates, I would say their team mate has under performed.

In the race, maybe. I don't agree with regards to qualifying. I think both Bottas and Kimi have the ability to be very quick over a single lap


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:02 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think Vettel defended pretty poor against Hamilton, if he just went on the inside Hamilton wouldn’t have got past. I don’t know what Vettel was like before the race and over the weekend in general but he seemed pretty down in his interview and loss of practice time with what happened in Japan and Malaysia was probably the last straw.

If that was Danny, Max or even Bottas then Hamilton wouldn’t have got past in the same scenario.


You should always make the guy go on the outside. I'm surprised he didn't shut the door. As soon as they got off the hairpin it was obvious that Hamilton was going to have a go at the end of the straight because he was very close. So seb should have moved to the inside right away and force Lewis to go out. I can't fathom that he was napping there. Maybe he was thinking of going for a switchback but it failed somehow.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:00 am 
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kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think Vettel defended pretty poor against Hamilton, if he just went on the inside Hamilton wouldn’t have got past. I don’t know what Vettel was like before the race and over the weekend in general but he seemed pretty down in his interview and loss of practice time with what happened in Japan and Malaysia was probably the last straw.

If that was Danny, Max or even Bottas then Hamilton wouldn’t have got past in the same scenario.


You should always make the guy go on the outside. I'm surprised he didn't shut the door. As soon as they got off the hairpin it was obvious that Hamilton was going to have a go at the end of the straight because he was very close. So seb should have moved to the inside right away and force Lewis to go out. I can't fathom that he was napping there. Maybe he was thinking of going for a switchback but it failed somehow.

Saw the overtake but not the replay myself.
However Lamo reported on the other thread that "Hamilton was clocking 337 (with DRS) to Vettels 305 when he overtook him" and if accurate, there`s absolutely no way to defend such a huge speed disadvantage, no matter what line Vettel took.
Probably it would have just cost him some tire life, but unlikely that it would have saved his P1 at the time... 32kmph (or 10% speed) deficit near the end of the strait, is simply way too much.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:28 am 
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Migen wrote:
kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think Vettel defended pretty poor against Hamilton, if he just went on the inside Hamilton wouldn’t have got past. I don’t know what Vettel was like before the race and over the weekend in general but he seemed pretty down in his interview and loss of practice time with what happened in Japan and Malaysia was probably the last straw.

If that was Danny, Max or even Bottas then Hamilton wouldn’t have got past in the same scenario.


You should always make the guy go on the outside. I'm surprised he didn't shut the door. As soon as they got off the hairpin it was obvious that Hamilton was going to have a go at the end of the straight because he was very close. So seb should have moved to the inside right away and force Lewis to go out. I can't fathom that he was napping there. Maybe he was thinking of going for a switchback but it failed somehow.

Saw the overtake but not the replay myself.
However Lamo reported on the other thread that "Hamilton was clocking 337 (with DRS) to Vettels 305 when he overtook him" and if accurate, there`s absolutely no way to defend such a huge speed disadvantage, no matter what line Vettel took.
Probably it would have just cost him some tire life, but unlikely that it would have saved his P1 at the time... 32kmph (or 10% speed) deficit near the end of the strait, is simply way too much.


Your wrong, it was a late overtake by Hamilton and if Vettel was on the inside the overtook would not have happened. Vettel was caught sleeping or was just in the wrong mindset.

In the race we saw many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner even while the defending driver being on very old tyres and Vettel should have done the same. It was like watching Kimi.

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Last edited by F1_Ernie on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:30 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
If we are suddenly going to use Bottas and Raikkonen as yardsticks, is it safe to call Mercedes the best car in Australia? And for most of the season, in fact, since Bottas is clearly ahead of Kimi in the standings.

The reality of the situation is that Bottas is no more of a yardstick than Kimi is.


I think the point is that you can't just look at any of it in isolation. Vettel clearly had a horrible preparation, he looked to be outpaced overall by Kimi in the race, so how can we use Vettel as the Ferrari yardstick? All this is objective, but the Vettel likely left much more potential in his car than Hamilton did.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:08 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think Vettel defended pretty poor against Hamilton, if he just went on the inside Hamilton wouldn’t have got past. I don’t know what Vettel was like before the race and over the weekend in general but he seemed pretty down in his interview and loss of practice time with what happened in Japan and Malaysia was probably the last straw.

If that was Danny, Max or even Bottas then Hamilton wouldn’t have got past in the same scenario.


You should always make the guy go on the outside. I'm surprised he didn't shut the door. As soon as they got off the hairpin it was obvious that Hamilton was going to have a go at the end of the straight because he was very close. So seb should have moved to the inside right away and force Lewis to go out. I can't fathom that he was napping there. Maybe he was thinking of going for a switchback but it failed somehow.

Saw the overtake but not the replay myself.
However Lamo reported on the other thread that "Hamilton was clocking 337 (with DRS) to Vettels 305 when he overtook him" and if accurate, there`s absolutely no way to defend such a huge speed disadvantage, no matter what line Vettel took.
Probably it would have just cost him some tire life, but unlikely that it would have saved his P1 at the time... 32kmph (or 10% speed) deficit near the end of the strait, is simply way too much.

Your wrong, it was a late overtake by Hamilton and if Vettel was on the inside the overtook would not have happened. Vettel was caught sleeping or was just in the wrong mindset.

In the race we saw many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner even while the defending driver being on very old tyres and Vettel should have done the same. It was like watching Kimi.

Wrong in what sense? Having just watched the replays, Hamilton was way back at the beginning of that strait and was able to close down rapidly thanks to the 30+ Kmph speed advantage before the pair of them even got into the breaking zone.

Its the sort of difference in speed you`d normally see in between a front of the grid car and a 3rd tier car... it was a hopeless case for Vettel, no matter which line he took to defend.

Since you saw "many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner", can you show me, or point out 1 successful defense maneuver of a car going 32Kmph slower in that strait by the time they got into the breaking zone?


Last edited by Migen on Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:23 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
What James Allison is currently saying about Mercedes is pretty mindblowing. You guys have gotta catch up with it later but he's basically just said that Mercedes are on another level in terms of how they work and operate. He was very strong and impassioned about it. That's based on all of his former experience.

yeah but you have to take what these guys say with a pinch of salt, though. They could be telling the truth, but OTOH of course they are going to big up their own team. He's hardly going to say "well when I was at Ferrari they were much better organised than Mercedes is," is he?!

Both Ferrari and Mercedes internal teams have tooted their own horn like this. It's not the most reliable way to assess things; listening to the teams.

It's close between the cars and, on race day, Red Bull are right there now too.


Toto said yesterday that they are the only team that has their processes ISO 9000 quality certified. To anyone that works in quality systems that means a lot. I have this picture of the Mercedes team sitting down an performing calm root cause analysis after a failure as opposed to Ferrari who would be running around shouting at each other! And no, that's not a racial stereotype before anyone pipes up.

ISO certification almost always involves extra expense in terms of personnel and time but in this case it appears to have paid off. You have to remember that without Ferrari's mechanical issues, the WDC would still be open to Lewis and Seb. Actually, I'm quite annoyed at Ferrari for spoiling what could have been a nil biting finish to the season.

Obviously, having said all of that I have now jinxed Mercedes and we'll have a double DNF for Lewis to take us to Abu Dhabi.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:57 am 
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Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Personally I think Vettel defended pretty poor against Hamilton, if he just went on the inside Hamilton wouldn’t have got past. I don’t know what Vettel was like before the race and over the weekend in general but he seemed pretty down in his interview and loss of practice time with what happened in Japan and Malaysia was probably the last straw.

If that was Danny, Max or even Bottas then Hamilton wouldn’t have got past in the same scenario.


You should always make the guy go on the outside. I'm surprised he didn't shut the door. As soon as they got off the hairpin it was obvious that Hamilton was going to have a go at the end of the straight because he was very close. So seb should have moved to the inside right away and force Lewis to go out. I can't fathom that he was napping there. Maybe he was thinking of going for a switchback but it failed somehow.

Saw the overtake but not the replay myself.
However Lamo reported on the other thread that "Hamilton was clocking 337 (with DRS) to Vettels 305 when he overtook him" and if accurate, there`s absolutely no way to defend such a huge speed disadvantage, no matter what line Vettel took.
Probably it would have just cost him some tire life, but unlikely that it would have saved his P1 at the time... 32kmph (or 10% speed) deficit near the end of the strait, is simply way too much.

Your wrong, it was a late overtake by Hamilton and if Vettel was on the inside the overtook would not have happened. Vettel was caught sleeping or was just in the wrong mindset.

In the race we saw many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner even while the defending driver being on very old tyres and Vettel should have done the same. It was like watching Kimi.

Wrong in what sense? Having just watched the replays, Hamilton was way back at the beginning of that strait and was able to close down rapidly thanks to the 30+ Kmph speed advantage before the pair of them even got into the breaking zone.

Its the sort of difference in speed you`d normally see in between a front of the grid car and a 3rd tier car... it was a hopeless case for Vettel, no matter which line he took to defend.

Since you saw "many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner", can you show me, or point out 1 successful defense maneuver of a car going 32Kmph slower in that strait by the time they got into the breaking zone?


In this one instance of Hamilton overtaking Vettel if Vettel took the inside line Hamilton would have needed to go round the outside and the overtake wouldn’t have happened. Hamilton himself said he was surprised Vettel didn’t defend it harder. Would Bottas, Ricciardo or Max done the same thing I very much doubt it.

Massa defended against the F1 on much older tyres taking the inside line, I’m sure I saw Max doing the same thing on old SS tyres. Both kept the car behind.

I have watched that overtake lots of times now and Hamilton came from far back, the speed advantage let Hamilton get close but if Hamilton was on the outside he wouldn’t have just glided past Vettel like you’re trying to make out. The overtake happened because of poor defending more than anything.

It wasn’t like Spain were Vettel took the inside and Hamilton went past, in this instance that would never have happened. Vettel said his tyres was in a bad way so he had most likely given up and knew it was going to happen at some point, it was said many times in the Grand Prix the more you fight the more lap time you lose.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:20 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
kleefton wrote:
You should always make the guy go on the outside. I'm surprised he didn't shut the door. As soon as they got off the hairpin it was obvious that Hamilton was going to have a go at the end of the straight because he was very close. So seb should have moved to the inside right away and force Lewis to go out. I can't fathom that he was napping there. Maybe he was thinking of going for a switchback but it failed somehow.

Saw the overtake but not the replay myself.
However Lamo reported on the other thread that "Hamilton was clocking 337 (with DRS) to Vettels 305 when he overtook him" and if accurate, there`s absolutely no way to defend such a huge speed disadvantage, no matter what line Vettel took.
Probably it would have just cost him some tire life, but unlikely that it would have saved his P1 at the time... 32kmph (or 10% speed) deficit near the end of the strait, is simply way too much.

Your wrong, it was a late overtake by Hamilton and if Vettel was on the inside the overtook would not have happened. Vettel was caught sleeping or was just in the wrong mindset.

In the race we saw many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner even while the defending driver being on very old tyres and Vettel should have done the same. It was like watching Kimi.

Wrong in what sense? Having just watched the replays, Hamilton was way back at the beginning of that strait and was able to close down rapidly thanks to the 30+ Kmph speed advantage before the pair of them even got into the breaking zone.

Its the sort of difference in speed you`d normally see in between a front of the grid car and a 3rd tier car... it was a hopeless case for Vettel, no matter which line he took to defend.

Since you saw "many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner", can you show me, or point out 1 successful defense maneuver of a car going 32Kmph slower in that strait by the time they got into the breaking zone?


In this one instance of Hamilton overtaking Vettel if Vettel took the inside line Hamilton would have needed to go round the outside and the overtake wouldn’t have happened. Hamilton himself said he was surprised Vettel didn’t defend it harder. Would Bottas, Ricciardo or Max done the same thing I very much doubt it.

Massa defended against the F1 on much older tyres taking the inside line, I’m sure I saw Max doing the same thing on old SS tyres. Both kept the car behind.

I have watched that overtake lots of times now and Hamilton came from far back, the speed advantage let Hamilton get close but if Hamilton was on the outside he wouldn’t have just glided past Vettel like you’re trying to make out. The overtake happened because of poor defending more than anything.

Its all good reasoning on your part, but the crux of the argument I raised is that the difference in speed was a lot higher then what you`d normally expect for drivers to have even a slight chance of defending, and what you're saying above doesnt really address that point without knowing the speed deficit Massa or Verstappen had on the strait whilst defending to other cars.

And no, I didnt say that Hamilton would have passed anyway for sure, I said it would have been "unlikely that it would have saved Vettel his P1 at the time" considering the difference in speed. On the other hand, you seem to be implying that as long as a driver defends the inside, no overtake will take place regardless of the "HUGE" speed difference... which doesnt make sense to me.

F1_Ernie wrote:
It wasn’t like Spain were Vettel took the inside and Hamilton went past, in this instance that would never have happened.

How so? Which physical law prohibits that exactly?

Since you mentioned it... you know, in Spain (and other tracks too) most drivers with speed deficit were defending successfully on the inside to marginally faster cars, but when that deficit is too big even defending the inside wont save you, as it was the case with Hamilton overtaking Vettel defending the inside. Now, unless Hamilton had a lot more speed advantage in Spain in comparison with the 32Kmph of USA (I strongly doubt it), I dont see how you can possibly rule it out that its likely that Hamilton would have gone through anyways in USA regardless of which side Vettel defended.

Also take SPA 2017: With only 10kmph advantage on DRS Vettel was able pull alongside Hamilton who defended on the inside. Dont you think that if Vettel had 30+ Kmph advantage he would have been able to pass (likely, rather easily) regardless of Hamilton defending the inside?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Now we are going into different territory we’re the Mercedes car was set up for sector 1 and 3 in Spa, Hamilton used his clever trick and Mercedes used the clever de rate option. That was all about Hamilton and Mercedes being very clever. You always take the inside because you can push the driver off.

In Spain Hamilton was around 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap quicker and because of the brand new faster tyres which allowed a better exit onto the straight and extended DRS zone he was past Vettel before the corner. Plus the first corner is a fast corner with no hard breaking zone which makes it harder to defend.

In USA you just need to just watch the helicopter view to see if Vettel covered the inside he would have more than likely kept P1. There was more chance of him keeping the position than losing it like your making out. Vettel looked like Kimi which doesn’t happen very often, he put up no defence and it looked like a driver who knew he was going to lose whatever.

I think it was pretty obvious you defend the inside and make the other driver at least work for the overtake, Hamilton would have not been in front of Vettel then Vettel simply has to drive Hamilton of the track.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Your wrong, it was a late overtake by Hamilton and if Vettel was on the inside the overtook would not have happened. Vettel was caught sleeping or was just in the wrong mindset.

In the race we saw many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner even while the defending driver being on very old tyres and Vettel should have done the same. It was like watching Kimi.

Wrong in what sense? Having just watched the replays, Hamilton was way back at the beginning of that strait and was able to close down rapidly thanks to the 30+ Kmph speed advantage before the pair of them even got into the breaking zone.

Its the sort of difference in speed you`d normally see in between a front of the grid car and a 3rd tier car... it was a hopeless case for Vettel, no matter which line he took to defend.

Since you saw "many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner", can you show me, or point out 1 successful defense maneuver of a car going 32Kmph slower in that strait by the time they got into the breaking zone?


In this one instance of Hamilton overtaking Vettel if Vettel took the inside line Hamilton would have needed to go round the outside and the overtake wouldn’t have happened. Hamilton himself said he was surprised Vettel didn’t defend it harder. Would Bottas, Ricciardo or Max done the same thing I very much doubt it.

Massa defended against the F1 on much older tyres taking the inside line, I’m sure I saw Max doing the same thing on old SS tyres. Both kept the car behind.

I have watched that overtake lots of times now and Hamilton came from far back, the speed advantage let Hamilton get close but if Hamilton was on the outside he wouldn’t have just glided past Vettel like you’re trying to make out. The overtake happened because of poor defending more than anything.

Its all good reasoning on your part, but the crux of the argument I raised is that the difference in speed was a lot higher then what you`d normally expect for drivers to have even a slight chance of defending, and what you're saying above doesnt really address that point without knowing the speed deficit Massa or Verstappen had on the strait whilst defending to other cars.

And no, I didnt say that Hamilton would have passed anyway for sure, I said it would have been "unlikely that it would have saved Vettel his P1 at the time" considering the difference in speed. On the other hand, you seem to be implying that as long as a driver defends the inside, no overtake will take place regardless of the "HUGE" speed difference... which doesnt make sense to me.

F1_Ernie wrote:
It wasn’t like Spain were Vettel took the inside and Hamilton went past, in this instance that would never have happened.

How so? Which physical law prohibits that exactly?

Since you mentioned it... you know, in Spain (and other tracks too) most drivers with speed deficit were defending successfully on the inside to marginally faster cars, but when that deficit is too big even defending the inside wont save you, as it was the case with Hamilton overtaking Vettel defending the inside. Now, unless Hamilton had a lot more speed advantage in Spain in comparison with the 32Kmph of USA (I strongly doubt it), I dont see how you can possibly rule it out that its likely that Hamilton would have gone through anyways in USA regardless of which side Vettel defended.

Also take SPA 2017: With only 10kmph advantage on DRS Vettel was able pull alongside Hamilton who defended on the inside. Dont you think that if Vettel had 30+ Kmph advantage he would have been able to pass (likely, rather easily) regardless of Hamilton defending the inside?

Your information is inaccurate and you still seem to have not seen the replay of the pass that shows what people are talking about. If Vettel covers the inside line, there is no way Hamilton makes the pass there. Really Vettel got caught napping there. The trap speeds during qualifying were separated by 5 kph so the discrepency there was unusual. Top speeds were close enough between them that both Raikkonen and Vettel were able to pass Bottas on-track. You always seem to want to make it out that poor Ferrari are struggling with a slow car. The car is completely up to it but the team are not executing since the mid-point of the season.

Since it's been brough up; in Spain the Ferrari actually had a higher top speed than the Mercedes. Vettel was overtaken largely because Hamilton got a better exit onto the straight there (he had softer tires at that moment).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
If we are suddenly going to use Bottas and Raikkonen as yardsticks, is it safe to call Mercedes the best car in Australia? And for most of the season, in fact, since Bottas is clearly ahead of Kimi in the standings.

The reality of the situation is that Bottas is no more of a yardstick than Kimi is.



Gap to team mate is a good yard stick, if Bottas or Kimi are within 0.100 of their team mates, I would say their team mate has under performed.

In the race, maybe. I don't agree with regards to qualifying. I think both Bottas and Kimi have the ability to be very quick over a single lap



Still, it has to be case by case. Kimi looked quick and pretty much confirmed as such himself after the race. He was very pleased with his pace and feeling. At minimum I'd say he was faster than average and Vettel was probably slower than average. I'd suggest that Lewis and Max are big difference makers in recent races for their teams and that the chasm between drivers is biggest at Mercedes right now. Bottas ------- *shrugs*


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:46 pm 
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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... 77644.html

Talks about how Friday affected Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:09 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Migen wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Your wrong, it was a late overtake by Hamilton and if Vettel was on the inside the overtook would not have happened. Vettel was caught sleeping or was just in the wrong mindset.

In the race we saw many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner even while the defending driver being on very old tyres and Vettel should have done the same. It was like watching Kimi.

Wrong in what sense? Having just watched the replays, Hamilton was way back at the beginning of that strait and was able to close down rapidly thanks to the 30+ Kmph speed advantage before the pair of them even got into the breaking zone.

Its the sort of difference in speed you`d normally see in between a front of the grid car and a 3rd tier car... it was a hopeless case for Vettel, no matter which line he took to defend.

Since you saw "many drivers being pushed to the outside for that corner", can you show me, or point out 1 successful defense maneuver of a car going 32Kmph slower in that strait by the time they got into the breaking zone?


In this one instance of Hamilton overtaking Vettel if Vettel took the inside line Hamilton would have needed to go round the outside and the overtake wouldn’t have happened. Hamilton himself said he was surprised Vettel didn’t defend it harder. Would Bottas, Ricciardo or Max done the same thing I very much doubt it.

Massa defended against the F1 on much older tyres taking the inside line, I’m sure I saw Max doing the same thing on old SS tyres. Both kept the car behind.

I have watched that overtake lots of times now and Hamilton came from far back, the speed advantage let Hamilton get close but if Hamilton was on the outside he wouldn’t have just glided past Vettel like you’re trying to make out. The overtake happened because of poor defending more than anything.

Its all good reasoning on your part, but the crux of the argument I raised is that the difference in speed was a lot higher then what you`d normally expect for drivers to have even a slight chance of defending, and what you're saying above doesnt really address that point without knowing the speed deficit Massa or Verstappen had on the strait whilst defending to other cars.

And no, I didnt say that Hamilton would have passed anyway for sure, I said it would have been "unlikely that it would have saved Vettel his P1 at the time" considering the difference in speed. On the other hand, you seem to be implying that as long as a driver defends the inside, no overtake will take place regardless of the "HUGE" speed difference... which doesnt make sense to me.

F1_Ernie wrote:
It wasn’t like Spain were Vettel took the inside and Hamilton went past, in this instance that would never have happened.

How so? Which physical law prohibits that exactly?

Since you mentioned it... you know, in Spain (and other tracks too) most drivers with speed deficit were defending successfully on the inside to marginally faster cars, but when that deficit is too big even defending the inside wont save you, as it was the case with Hamilton overtaking Vettel defending the inside. Now, unless Hamilton had a lot more speed advantage in Spain in comparison with the 32Kmph of USA (I strongly doubt it), I dont see how you can possibly rule it out that its likely that Hamilton would have gone through anyways in USA regardless of which side Vettel defended.

Also take SPA 2017: With only 10kmph advantage on DRS Vettel was able pull alongside Hamilton who defended on the inside. Dont you think that if Vettel had 30+ Kmph advantage he would have been able to pass (likely, rather easily) regardless of Hamilton defending the inside?

Your information is inaccurate and you still seem to have not seen the replay of the pass that shows what people are talking about. If Vettel covers the inside line, there is no way Hamilton makes the pass there. Really Vettel got caught napping there. The trap speeds during qualifying were separated by 5 kph so the discrepency there was unusual. Top speeds were close enough between them that both Raikkonen and Vettel were able to pass Bottas on-track. You always seem to want to make it out that poor Ferrari are struggling with a slow car. The car is completely up to it but the team are not executing since the mid-point of the season.

Since it's been brough up; in Spain the Ferrari actually had a higher top speed than the Mercedes. Vettel was overtaken largely because Hamilton got a better exit onto the straight there (he had softer tires at that moment).

I have long seen the replays and the information is very accurate. The moment Hamilton made the move for his pass, he had 33Kmph over Vettel: https://imgur.com/a/QOJoG. 337 - 304 = 33 kmph, doesnt it :?:
Of course that 33 kmph deficit was down to many factors like the state of the tires, slipstream and DRS and I did not imply that Ferrari were lucking so much speed or performance as a whole.
I only ever talked about that specific moment, the overtaking moment in this exchange of replies with F1_Ernie, and whether defending the inside would have spared P1 for Vettel, so this has nothing to do with "wanting to portray that Ferrari are poor" (please, do not misinterpret my posts), but only that Vettel was pretty much in a hopeless position when the overtaking took place considering the gap in relative speed of the 2 cars.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:14 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
If we are suddenly going to use Bottas and Raikkonen as yardsticks, is it safe to call Mercedes the best car in Australia? And for most of the season, in fact, since Bottas is clearly ahead of Kimi in the standings.

The reality of the situation is that Bottas is no more of a yardstick than Kimi is.

If the 4 of them were all put in the same car, I would expect things to play out exactly as they have. Hamilton being the fastest, with Vettel a bit behind, Bottas a bit further behind that and Kimi bringing up the rear.

It starts to be pointless to continue an argument when it becomes clear that the two sides fundamentally disagree but I don't think that there is any meaningful gap in the performance of the cars. What we're seeing is Ferrari having a string of rocky weekends in which things are not going smoothly and they certainly do not have the margin for error to miss so much running and still be able to top Hamilton/Mercedes when they are clicking on all cylinders.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:19 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
If the 4 of them were all put in the same car, I would expect things to play out exactly as they have. Hamilton being the fastest, with Vettel a bit behind, Bottas a bit further behind that and Kimi bringing up the rear.

Hamilton's average advantage in qualifying over Vettel this season has been several times bigger than his average advantage over Rosberg was in equal cars.

Ferrari's supposed race pace is also overrated. They are usually quick enough to keep up with Mercedes, but rarely quick enough to overtake or jump them in the pits.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:29 pm 
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Hamilton 32 kph advantage got him to within 1-2 car lengths of Vettel, but the overtake was on the brakes. Hamilton was still a car length behind when both went onto the brakes. This means, if Vettel covers the inside, the pass does not happen.

The huge speed advantage got him into a position to pass but once you enter the braking zone the top speed is irrelevant and Vettel was a car length ahead at that point.

The slip stream + DRS affect was huge at this race, worth around 20-25 kph and therefore we had Renaults overtaking Mercedes engined cars and cars able to pass cars of a very similar pace

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:35 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Now we are going into different territory we’re the Mercedes car was set up for sector 1 and 3 in Spa, Hamilton used his clever trick and Mercedes used the clever de rate option. That was all about Hamilton and Mercedes being very clever. You always take the inside because you can push the driver off.

Yes, I get it... it was all about Hamilton and Mercedes being very clever (no need to repeat it 2 times in the same paragraph :P), but the question was not about how Hamilton/Mercedes managed to loose just 10Kmph to Vettel with DRS, the question was if Vettel had 30 + kmph over Hamilton instead of just 10, wouldnt Vettel have been able to pass regardless of Hamilton defending the inside line?

F1_Ernie wrote:
In Spain Hamilton was around 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap quicker and because of the brand new faster tyres which allowed a better exit onto the straight and extended DRS zone he was past Vettel before the corner. Plus the first corner is a fast corner with no hard breaking zone which makes it harder to defend.

8O Where did that heavily screwed 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap quicker come from? The analysis on this thread mostly have Mercedes and Ferrari on level terms in race pace in Spain, and Hamilton being on 1-step faster tire compound would probably make him 7-8 tenths faster at most.

F1_Ernie wrote:
In USA you just need to just watch the helicopter view to see if Vettel covered the inside he would have more than likely kept P1. There was more chance of him keeping the position than losing it like your making out. Vettel looked like Kimi which doesn’t happen very often, he put up no defence and it looked like a driver who knew he was going to lose whatever.

I think it was pretty obvious you defend the inside and make the other driver at least work for the overtake, Hamilton would have not been in front of Vettel then Vettel simply has to drive Hamilton of the track.

A Ferrari being 33kmph slower than a Merdeces by the end of the strait, does not happen very often neither. I`m just not aware of what are the chances to defend such speed deficits successfully, I can only imagine them to be extremely low. At the cost of going around in circles, I think we have to agree to disagree on this point.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:54 pm 
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When Kimi overtook Bottas on the back straight, later in the race.

Bottas - 311
Raikkonen - 335

24 kph advantage. It appears that the Mercedes was about 4 kph quicker than the Ferrari on the straight and the DRS and slipstream was worth about 28 kph this race

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:56 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Hamilton 32 kph advantage got him to within 1-2 car lengths of Vettel, but the overtake was on the brakes. Hamilton was still a car length behind when both went onto the brakes. This means, if Vettel covers the inside, the pass does not happen.

The huge speed advantage got him into a position to pass but once you enter the braking zone the top speed is irrelevant and Vettel was a car length ahead at that point.

The slip stream + DRS affect was huge at this race, worth around 20-25 kph and therefore we had Renaults overtaking Mercedes engined cars and cars able to pass cars of a very similar pace

This image https://imgur.com/a/NeU3U (new screenshot, not one I posted earlier) shows Hamilton committing the move on the inside of Vettel whilst they both were on full throttle... sure, the overtake was then completed in the breaking zone.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:18 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
If the 4 of them were all put in the same car, I would expect things to play out exactly as they have. Hamilton being the fastest, with Vettel a bit behind, Bottas a bit further behind that and Kimi bringing up the rear.

Hamilton's average advantage in qualifying over Vettel this season has been several times bigger than his average advantage over Rosberg was in equal cars.

Ferrari's supposed race pace is also overrated. They are usually quick enough to keep up with Mercedes, but rarely quick enough to overtake or jump them in the pits.

Here we have you trying to propagate this myth even in the wake of a race in which both Ferraris were able to overtake a Mercedes on-track. Because something DOES not happen that doesn't mean it COULD not happen.

Your thought process is way too deterministic. You are missing the action altogether it seems. Vettel had a bad race yesterday and you seem to have totally missed that. He was off his game (largely because of the issues in Friday limiting his running). He got caught napping by Hamilton. He also did a poor job of taking care of his tires and was slower than Raikkonen overall. You keep talking about this weekend as if both drivers got the most out of their cars when it's painfully obvious that Vettel didn't.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Migen wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton 32 kph advantage got him to within 1-2 car lengths of Vettel, but the overtake was on the brakes. Hamilton was still a car length behind when both went onto the brakes. This means, if Vettel covers the inside, the pass does not happen.

The huge speed advantage got him into a position to pass but once you enter the braking zone the top speed is irrelevant and Vettel was a car length ahead at that point.

The slip stream + DRS affect was huge at this race, worth around 20-25 kph and therefore we had Renaults overtaking Mercedes engined cars and cars able to pass cars of a very similar pace

This image https://imgur.com/a/NeU3U (new screenshot, not one I posted earlier) shows Hamilton committing the move on the inside of Vettel whilst they both were on full throttle... sure, the overtake was then completed in the breaking zone.


Indeed and this is literally 1 frame before they brake and Vettel is 1 car length ahead. When Vettel brakes for the turn he is still ahead isn’t he? If Vettels car was where Hamiltons is in this picture Hamilton would not have been able to out brake him into the turn

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:45 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:50 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
If the 4 of them were all put in the same car, I would expect things to play out exactly as they have. Hamilton being the fastest, with Vettel a bit behind, Bottas a bit further behind that and Kimi bringing up the rear.

Hamilton's average advantage in qualifying over Vettel this season has been several times bigger than his average advantage over Rosberg was in equal cars.

Ferrari's supposed race pace is also overrated. They are usually quick enough to keep up with Mercedes, but rarely quick enough to overtake or jump them in the pits.

Here we have you trying to propagate this myth even in the wake of a race in which both Ferraris were able to overtake a Mercedes on-track. Because something DOES not happen that doesn't mean it COULD not happen.

Your thought process is way too deterministic. You are missing the action altogether it seems. Vettel had a bad race yesterday and you seem to have totally missed that. He was off his game (largely because of the issues in Friday limiting his running). He got caught napping by Hamilton. He also did a poor job of taking care of his tires and was slower than Raikkonen overall. You keep talking about this weekend as if both drivers got the most out of their cars when it's painfully obvious that Vettel didn't.

Bottas' tyres were shot, to be fair. He did after all come in with just a few laps to spare.

Was Vettel bad on his tyres? I know he stopped twice but I thought that was a tactical gamble, not because his tyres were shot?

Agree that he didn't have a particularly great race overall, though


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:04 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
If the 4 of them were all put in the same car, I would expect things to play out exactly as they have. Hamilton being the fastest, with Vettel a bit behind, Bottas a bit further behind that and Kimi bringing up the rear.

Hamilton's average advantage in qualifying over Vettel this season has been several times bigger than his average advantage over Rosberg was in equal cars.

Ferrari's supposed race pace is also overrated. They are usually quick enough to keep up with Mercedes, but rarely quick enough to overtake or jump them in the pits.

Here we have you trying to propagate this myth even in the wake of a race in which both Ferraris were able to overtake a Mercedes on-track. Because something DOES not happen that doesn't mean it COULD not happen.

Your thought process is way too deterministic. You are missing the action altogether it seems. Vettel had a bad race yesterday and you seem to have totally missed that. He was off his game (largely because of the issues in Friday limiting his running). He got caught napping by Hamilton. He also did a poor job of taking care of his tires and was slower than Raikkonen overall. You keep talking about this weekend as if both drivers got the most out of their cars when it's painfully obvious that Vettel didn't.

Bottas' tyres were shot, to be fair. He did after all come in with just a few laps to spare.

Was Vettel bad on his tyres? I know he stopped twice but I thought that was a tactical gamble, not because his tyres were shot?

Agree that he didn't have a particularly great race overall, though

I think it's potentially a bit harsh to say that he was simply bad on his tires. It's probably more that his lack of a true long run simulation on Friday led to a lack of understanding with the tires during the race and/or a less than optimal setup.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:08 pm 
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Vettel came on the radio suggesting they will need to do plan B before even Max had stopped and pushed others into 2 stopping. Vettel ate his tyres this race, he had a good pace for the first 5-6 laps when ahead of Hamilton but over did it on his tyres. He had a strong pace on laps 1-5, laps 8-17 he was lapping 0.5-1.1 seconds off that pace.

Vettel had a poor pace in the 2nd stint, he had tyres 4 laps older than Kimi but Kimi took 7.5 seconds out of him between laps 21-35 before until Vettel formed a train of with Bottas and Kimi behind. If Kimi hadn't have messed up his qualifying and fallen back early on, he might have kept Hamilton honest this race. The same for Verstappen without his penalties, Vettel was possibly the 5th or even 6th fastest car/driver package this weekend.

Red Bull are very close to overtaking Ferrari, its just Ferrari's qualifying mode advantage keeping them ahead.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:12 pm 
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While most people in the forum are completely missing it; Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari have all been on about the same pace during the races since Singapore. It's basically a dead heat now in terms of race pace.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:45 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Hamilton 32 kph advantage got him to within 1-2 car lengths of Vettel, but the overtake was on the brakes. Hamilton was still a car length behind when both went onto the brakes. This means, if Vettel covers the inside, the pass does not happen.

The huge speed advantage got him into a position to pass but once you enter the braking zone the top speed is irrelevant and Vettel was a car length ahead at that point.

The slip stream + DRS affect was huge at this race, worth around 20-25 kph and therefore we had Renaults overtaking Mercedes engined cars and cars able to pass cars of a very similar pace


Thank you very much, exacty what i have been saying :thumbup:

Even someone with little F1 knowledge can work this out.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:48 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
If the 4 of them were all put in the same car, I would expect things to play out exactly as they have. Hamilton being the fastest, with Vettel a bit behind, Bottas a bit further behind that and Kimi bringing up the rear.

Hamilton's average advantage in qualifying over Vettel this season has been several times bigger than his average advantage over Rosberg was in equal cars.

Ferrari's supposed race pace is also overrated. They are usually quick enough to keep up with Mercedes, but rarely quick enough to overtake or jump them in the pits.

Here we have you trying to propagate this myth even in the wake of a race in which both Ferraris were able to overtake a Mercedes on-track. Because something DOES not happen that doesn't mean it COULD not happen.

Your thought process is way too deterministic. You are missing the action altogether it seems. Vettel had a bad race yesterday and you seem to have totally missed that. He was off his game (largely because of the issues in Friday limiting his running). He got caught napping by Hamilton. He also did a poor job of taking care of his tires and was slower than Raikkonen overall. You keep talking about this weekend as if both drivers got the most out of their cars when it's painfully obvious that Vettel didn't.

Bottas' tyres were shot, to be fair. He did after all come in with just a few laps to spare.

Was Vettel bad on his tyres? I know he stopped twice but I thought that was a tactical gamble, not because his tyres were shot?

Agree that he didn't have a particularly great race overall, though

I think it's potentially a bit harsh to say that he was simply bad on his tires. It's probably more that his lack of a true long run simulation on Friday led to a lack of understanding with the tires during the race and/or a less than optimal setup.


In the article I posted it mentioned Kimi was better on his tyres and the lack of Friday really hurt Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:51 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
If the 4 of them were all put in the same car, I would expect things to play out exactly as they have. Hamilton being the fastest, with Vettel a bit behind, Bottas a bit further behind that and Kimi bringing up the rear.

Hamilton's average advantage in qualifying over Vettel this season has been several times bigger than his average advantage over Rosberg was in equal cars.

Ferrari's supposed race pace is also overrated. They are usually quick enough to keep up with Mercedes, but rarely quick enough to overtake or jump them in the pits.


Ferrari's race pace has been excellent this year but it just can't be used to there advantage due to 1 stop races. 1 stop races means the leader at turn 1 wins the race. You can't overtake similar pace cars in 99% of races.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:57 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
While most people in the forum are completely missing it; Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari have all been on about the same pace during the races since Singapore. It's basically a dead heat now in terms of race pace.



I agree that it's close and I probably have it closer than most people but I don't think they're exactly equal. I think Ferrari have a marginal edge over RB due to engine grunt. Mercedes definitely had a period of having even or worse race pace than the Ferrari although that's been balanced out again over the last two races. So I agree but not completely. It is close... it's close enough to mean that the most important aspect is the driver + how tight the ship is run. On that front Hamilton-Mercedes has been peerless since the summer break and Verstappen has likely been second best.


In more recent times (I know that's vague but you guys are the experts)...

Hamilton

Verstappen

Vettel
Ricciardo



Raikkonen
Bottas


Biggest gap in form at Merc followed by Ferrari followed by RB.

Race pace at minimum I see RB as a bit inferior still without making any special mention regarding Merc vs Ferrari - due to engine grunt mainly as I said. I think that could be seen again during Austin given the nature of the overtaking and attacks. Also, given that I think Verstappen is the only one currently sniffing Hamilton's form he's also making the RB look a tad bit more impressive than it probably is - hence seeing them as slightly inferior (same logic for Hamilton and therefore having Merc closer to Ferrari than most).

I don't for a second though think Lewis would have had such a dominant qualifying season in the Ferrari.


Last edited by Invade on Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Mexico will be interesting, on paper it should be a Ferrari track again but Red Bull look great and Max with the upgraded engine will be at the sharp end this time. He's also won every race after Kvyat gets the boot so he could get the hat-trick here.

Not much if any benefit for Mercedes lwb creating less drag at this altitude so they could realistically fall to 3rd (in the race at least) if it's hot with low tyre temps on a grippy track. Hard to be confident where to put them on this one.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:04 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Mexico will be interesting, on paper it should be a Ferrari track again but Red Bull look great and Max with the upgraded engine will be at the sharp end this time. He's also won every race after Kvyat gets the boot so he could get the hat-trick here.

Not much if any benefit for Mercedes lwb creating less drag at this altitude so they could realistically fall to 3rd (in the race at least) if it's hot with low tyre temps on a grippy track. Hard to be confident where to put them on this one.


How did you see RB vs Ferrari in terms of race pace at Austin?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Mexico will be interesting, on paper it should be a Ferrari track again but Red Bull look great and Max with the upgraded engine will be at the sharp end this time. He's also won every race after Kvyat gets the boot so he could get the hat-trick here.

Not much if any benefit for Mercedes lwb creating less drag at this altitude so they could realistically fall to 3rd (in the race at least) if it's hot with low tyre temps on a grippy track. Hard to be confident where to put them on this one.


How did you see RB vs Ferrari in terms of race pace at Austin?


Close, I think in the race the Renault isn't too bad at all. Bit hard to tell because Max had the upgrade but was coming from behind and Dan didn't have the grunt to complete the move on Bottas and got held up but the undercut worked well here and I think Dan would have troubled Seb eventually.

Seb did go away from Max though when they both put on the SS at the end, not by much but he wasn't troubled so probably still advantage Ferrari but RB and Renault have closed right up.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
i think hamilton would have won the title in either car so it doesnt matter


I don't.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
i think hamilton would have won the title in either car so it doesnt matter


I don't.


Really? No sillyness at Baku, crash in Singapore and a little more luck and Hamilton would be right in there. Even without the luck that's nearly an extra 40 points gained.

Not sure about would have but definitely could have.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:46 pm 
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There's a good chance that Hamilton would feel the need to be more aggressive and - as a result - get involved in more collisions if he had a car that was generally slower in qualifying. Vettel has faced an uphill battle most weekends this season.

There also is no guarantee that Lewis wouldn't have a few horrible off-days with Ferrari like he did in Russia and Monaco with Mercedes.

This idea that Lewis would drive a perfect season with Ferrari and be leading the WDC is largely a fantasy.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
While most people in the forum are completely missing it; Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari have all been on about the same pace during the races since Singapore. It's basically a dead heat now in terms of race pace.



I agree that it's close and I probably have it closer than most people but I don't think they're exactly equal. I think Ferrari have a marginal edge over RB due to engine grunt. Mercedes definitely had a period of having even or worse race pace than the Ferrari although that's been balanced out again over the last two races. So I agree but not completely. It is close... it's close enough to mean that the most important aspect is the driver + how tight the ship is run. On that front Hamilton-Mercedes has been peerless since the summer break and Verstappen has likely been second best.


In more recent times (I know that's vague but you guys are the experts)...

Hamilton

Verstappen

Vettel
Ricciardo



Raikkonen
Bottas


Biggest gap in form at Merc followed by Ferrari followed by RB.

Race pace at minimum I see RB as a bit inferior still without making any special mention regarding Merc vs Ferrari - due to engine grunt mainly as I said. I think that could be seen again during Austin given the nature of the overtaking and attacks. Also, given that I think Verstappen is the only one currently sniffing Hamilton's form he's also making the RB look a tad bit more impressive than it probably is - hence seeing them as slightly inferior (same logic for Hamilton and therefore having Merc closer to Ferrari than most).

I don't for a second though think Lewis would have had such a dominant qualifying season in the Ferrari
.

We'll never know but I think that, when Dan finally leaves the nest and either joins Hamilton or Vettel, we'll get a clearer picture. I think much of the drivers' work is being attributed to the car at the moment (the polar opposite of what usually goes on in here).


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