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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll ended at Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 37%  37%  [ 44 ]
Mercedes 63%  63%  [ 74 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:03 am 
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lamo wrote:
If it is a 1 stopper or a track that is hard to overtake on, qualifying is very important. Unless you believe Hamilton to have a slight advantage over Vettel over 1 lap - then the Mercedes has been better in qualifying over the year.

Not massively so, somewhere around 9-6 in qualifying if we assume Hamilton = Vettel, so still close.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Hamilton is indeed performing better on most Saturdays than Vettel, after all he got out qualified by Kimi last season.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:03 am 
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lamo wrote:
If it is a 1 stopper or a track that is hard to overtake on, qualifying is very important. Unless you believe Hamilton to have a slight advantage over Vettel over 1 lap - then the Mercedes has been better in qualifying over the year.

Not massively so, somewhere around 9-6 in qualifying if we assume Hamilton = Vettel, so still close.

I do believe Hamilton to be slightly better over a single lap than Vettel. I also think Bottas is generally better over a single lap than Kimi (although his qualifying form seems to have really dipped of late). There is also, of course, the Q3 modes for the respective engines. Both teams have them but most believe that Mercedes still have the best qualifying engine mode.

A couple of things: First - Spa is not really that hard to overtake on. It's not as easy as some tracks with these new cars but there was quite a bit of passing in the race. The fact that Vettel was unable to pass Hamilton does not mean that you could not pass during the race. The reality was that the Kemel straight was the best place to pass but the Ferrari wasn't set up with enough top speed to be able to pull it off there. Vettel never really tried anywhere else. Secondly - even if we disagree about Spa, the situation at the other tracks is less debatable. How many tracks do Ferrari have to be quicker at before you'll stop insisting that Mercedes have the better car?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:41 am 
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Australia: Ferrari
China: Mercedes
Bahrain: Mercedes
Russia: equal
Spain: equal
Monaco: Ferrari
Canada: Mercedes
Baku: Mercedes
Austria: Mercedes
Britain: Mercedes
Hungary: Ferrari
Belgium: Mercedes
Monza: Mercedes
Singapore: Ferrari

Mercedes wins out in Bahrain and Belgium because qualifying pace is the tiebreaker if race pace is too close to call.

The only people who believe that Mercedes is inferior are Hamilton fans. It's intellectually dishonest to claim that Ferrari have been faster.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:29 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Australia: Ferrari
China: Mercedes
Bahrain: Mercedes
Russia: equal
Spain: equal
Monaco: Ferrari
Canada: Mercedes
Baku: Mercedes
Austria: Mercedes
Britain: Mercedes
Hungary: Ferrari
Belgium: Mercedes
Monza: Mercedes
Singapore: Ferrari

Mercedes wins out in Bahrain and Belgium because qualifying pace is the tiebreaker if race pace is too close to call.

The only people who believe that Mercedes is inferior are Hamilton fans. It's intellectually dishonest to claim that Ferrari have been faster.


In this analisys what assumptions are you making about the drivers? Are you counting Hamilton and Vettel as equally quick?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:57 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Australia: Ferrari
China: Mercedes
Bahrain: Mercedes
Russia: equal
Spain: equal
Monaco: Ferrari
Canada: Mercedes
Baku: Mercedes
Austria: Mercedes
Britain: Mercedes
Hungary: Ferrari
Belgium: Mercedes
Monza: Mercedes
Singapore: Ferrari

Mercedes wins out in Bahrain and Belgium because qualifying pace is the tiebreaker if race pace is too close to call.

The only people who believe that Mercedes is inferior are Hamilton fans. It's intellectually dishonest to claim that Ferrari have been faster.


Belgium, China and Bahrain for Mercedes :lol: you are just trying to find circuits to give Mercedes the advantage.

In Spain Ferrari was easily the quickest car. When Mercedes needed Bottas holding Vettel, VSC and a Ferrari shortened faster tyre stint to win the race.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:01 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Over the past 5 race weekends it can be easily argued to be Ferrari where even in qualifying they could have lead 3-2, but they haven't made hay during the period due to a couple of incidents, albeit it's a good track for Vettel to still make something happen in Malaysia and Kimi should be a serious threat for the race win.

Ferrari have had the faster car in 4 of the last 5 race weekends. Only in Monza have Mercedes been quicker in the last 5. Ferrari were also fastest in 4 of the first 6 races. Not sure how anyone at this point can claim Mercedes have had the faster car over the season. My position is that it is a close matchup. If you wanted to make an argument for one car being quicker, the argument would be for Ferrari at this stage. Japan will likely be another track where they are quicker as will Mexico, Brazil and possibly Abu Dhabi...

This again. Ferrari were nowhere in qualifying at Spa and the race was pretty much won on Saturday. It's debatable which was the better car on Sunday but there was a clear winner in qualifying, which made it the car to have. Italy was also clearly Mercedes, as was GB. The only races where Ferrari was the clear fastest were Hungary and Singapore.

edit: brain fade and forgot Singapore

Nonsense. Ferrari were faster in Australia, Spain, Monaco, Hungary, Belgium, Singapore and Malaysia without question and at least as fast as Mercedes in China, Russia and Bahrain. Mercedes were faster in Canada, Baku, Silverstone and Monza. Even if you call Beligium a wash because of qualifying, Ferrari have been quicker at more tracks than Mercedes this season. The facts don't fit your narrative.


This is what I agree with. Pretty obvious the cars was equal in China and Bahrain. Vettel won in Bahrain and in China Hamilton got lucky with a SC which sent Vettel down the field instead of 1st.

In Spain anyone just needs to watch the grand prix back.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:55 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Over the past 5 race weekends it can be easily argued to be Ferrari where even in qualifying they could have lead 3-2, but they haven't made hay during the period due to a couple of incidents, albeit it's a good track for Vettel to still make something happen in Malaysia and Kimi should be a serious threat for the race win.

Ferrari have had the faster car in 4 of the last 5 race weekends. Only in Monza have Mercedes been quicker in the last 5. Ferrari were also fastest in 4 of the first 6 races. Not sure how anyone at this point can claim Mercedes have had the faster car over the season. My position is that it is a close matchup. If you wanted to make an argument for one car being quicker, the argument would be for Ferrari at this stage. Japan will likely be another track where they are quicker as will Mexico, Brazil and possibly Abu Dhabi...

This again. Ferrari were nowhere in qualifying at Spa and the race was pretty much won on Saturday. It's debatable which was the better car on Sunday but there was a clear winner in qualifying, which made it the car to have. Italy was also clearly Mercedes, as was GB. The only races where Ferrari was the clear fastest were Hungary and Singapore.

edit: brain fade and forgot Singapore

Nonsense. Ferrari were faster in Australia, Spain, Monaco, Hungary, Belgium, Singapore and Malaysia without question and at least as fast as Mercedes in China, Russia and Bahrain. Mercedes were faster in Canada, Baku, Silverstone and Monza. Even if you call Beligium a wash because of qualifying, Ferrari have been quicker at more tracks than Mercedes this season. The facts don't fit your narrative.

No narrative, thanks, just a different interpretation of the facts than you appear to have.

The original point I disputed was your claim that Ferrari have had the faster car in 4 of the last 5 weekends. Now you appear to agree that Monza and GB were Mercedes tracks, so we shockingly seem to have some agreement there.

I could go through the rest of your post, but we've been there and done that and I don't see much mileage to be gained there. Suffice to say that our views differ, but that doesn't make mine "nonsense." You clearly think Hamilton has been labouring under some kind of disadvantage, while I firmly believe the opposite.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:57 am 
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lamo wrote:
If it is a 1 stopper or a track that is hard to overtake on, qualifying is very important. Unless you believe Hamilton to have a slight advantage over Vettel over 1 lap - then the Mercedes has been better in qualifying over the year.

Not massively so, somewhere around 9-6 in qualifying if we assume Hamilton = Vettel, so still close.

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:52 am 
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Today's Ferrari was the most dominant a 2017 car has been, it was at Mercedes 2016 levels. They just started from the back.

And Mercedees was the third fastest, but I think that is down to the narrow operating window their 2017 car.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:58 am 
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Could have been a Ferrari 1-2 by a margin today. 34 points in it, but if this trend continues and Ferrari have their bad luck out of the way it's not over imo.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:59 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Today's Ferrari was the most dominant a 2017 car has been, it was at Mercedes 2016 levels. They just started from the back.

And Mercedees was the third fastest, but I think that is down to the narrow operating window their 2017 car.


Max had pace to spare though. I think Red Bull weren't a million miles away but Ricciardo didn't nearly have the relative pace of his team-mate nor Vettel.


I wonder how concerned Mercedes currently are. Ferrari have probably edged them over the last 5 races in pace (should have won quali 3-2 probably also .. or about even on quali and better in the race) but they've had some bad luck. Red Bull are improving, though I expect the normal pecking order to be resumed for the rest of the season (Merc/Ferr followed by RB).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:59 am 
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Ferrari are good at this track. In 2015 too they won here but they had a horrible weekend this time in-spite of having performance. Mercedes were 3rd best today. I feel sorry for Bottas he was terrible 56secs behind the race winner :?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:15 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Today's Ferrari was the most dominant a 2017 car has been, it was at Mercedes 2016 levels. They just started from the back.

And Mercedees was the third fastest, but I think that is down to the narrow operating window their 2017 car.


Mercedes at Silverstone was a pretty dominant weekend.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:45 am 
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Today's Ferrari was the most dominant a 2017 car has been, it was at Mercedes 2016 levels. They just started from the back.

And Mercedees was the third fastest, but I think that is down to the narrow operating window their 2017 car.


No good when one car doesn't start and the other starts P20.
The same as Hamiltons car advantage in Baku and Austria being of no value.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:48 am 
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lamo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Today's Ferrari was the most dominant a 2017 car has been, it was at Mercedes 2016 levels. They just started from the back.

And Mercedees was the third fastest, but I think that is down to the narrow operating window their 2017 car.


No good when one car doesn't start and the other starts P20.
The same as Hamiltons car advantage in Baku and Austria being of no value.

This is a thread about which car is fastest. In this race, it was overwhelmingly the Ferrari. The fact they couldn't make use of that speed to its full extent is unfortunate for them.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:58 am 
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Where do people expect the advantage to lie in the coming races? Will Merc be a bit better next week because of lower temperatures in Japan than Malaysia? Still a fair way to go in this championship...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:07 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Where do people expect the advantage to lie in the coming races? Will Merc be a bit better next week because of lower temperatures in Japan than Malaysia? Still a fair way to go in this championship...


Entirely depends on whether Mercedes can fix their upgrade issues. I doubt they'll be able to do it in a week so Ferrari look favourites for Suzuka.

COTA is a little like this track, suits aero efficiency and McLaren went particularly well here and there last year and they've gone well here this year so I'd favour Ferrari for there too but Mercedes could fix their issues by then of course and then there's RB who should go well in both too.

Coming races looks like Ferrari pace wise but everything else seems to be going against them now. Typical they waited for a car like this for ten years and everything else was on point usually, now they've got the car and everything else seems sloppy or going against them lately.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:09 am 
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I think generally speaking Ferrari will be the best car going forward mainly because I don't think Mercedes can immediately solve their issues and seemingly underperforming upgrades, yeah.

Ferrari with an edge (just an edge) over Merc and Red Bull continuing to impress.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:34 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Belgium, China and Bahrain for Mercedes :lol: you are just trying to find circuits to give Mercedes the advantage.

In both Belgium and Bahrain, Mercedes was clearly quicker in qualifying. The cars were roughly equal in the race, in which case qualifying is the tiebreaker.

Quote:
In Spain Ferrari was easily the quickest car. When Mercedes needed Bottas holding Vettel, VSC and a Ferrari shortened faster tyre stint to win the race.

In the first stint, Hamilton was just as fast as Vettel and even catching him at the end of the stint. After that Vettel was on a different strategy, so the comparison becomes invalid.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:37 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Belgium, China and Bahrain for Mercedes :lol: you are just trying to find circuits to give Mercedes the advantage.

In both Belgium and Bahrain, Mercedes was clearly quicker in qualifying. The cars were roughly equal in the race, in which case qualifying is the tiebreaker.

Quote:
In Spain Ferrari was easily the quickest car. When Mercedes needed Bottas holding Vettel, VSC and a Ferrari shortened faster tyre stint to win the race.

In the first stint, Hamilton was just as fast as Vettel and even catching him at the end of the stint. After that Vettel was on a different strategy, so the comparison becomes invalid.


You make it up as you go along. Really is no point anymore.

Ferrari get Russia then because it was equal in races so we jump to quali :?

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Last edited by F1_Ernie on Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:41 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Belgium, China and Bahrain for Mercedes :lol: you are just trying to find circuits to give Mercedes the advantage.

In both Belgium and Bahrain, Mercedes was clearly quicker in qualifying. The cars were roughly equal in the race, in which case qualifying is the tiebreaker.

Quote:
In Spain Ferrari was easily the quickest car. When Mercedes needed Bottas holding Vettel, VSC and a Ferrari shortened faster tyre stint to win the race.

In the first stint, Hamilton was just as fast as Vettel and even catching him at the end of the stint. After that Vettel was on a different strategy, so the comparison becomes invalid.


Invalid comparison because of different strategies? :uhoh:

I guess you'll be handing Mercedes this weekend too, because Vettel was on a different strategy and Hamilton qualified on pole?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:43 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Where do people expect the advantage to lie in the coming races? Will Merc be a bit better next week because of lower temperatures in Japan than Malaysia? Still a fair way to go in this championship...


I think they should have advantage there as it is a fast track.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:03 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Invalid comparison because of different strategies? :uhoh:

I guess you'll be handing Mercedes this weekend too, because Vettel was on a different strategy and Hamilton qualified on pole?

No, it's because in the first 15 laps of the race, when Hamilton and Vettel were on the same tyres, Hamilton kept within 1.5 seconds of Vettel and even forced Vettel to stop early to avoid an undercut.

But let me guess, it was Lewis' incredible ability to stay within 1.5 seconds of Vettel with a supposedly way inferior car?

Merc's top speed also meant that it was much easier for Hamilton to overtake Vettel than it was for Vettel to overtake Bottas, another factor that has to be considered when judging the best car.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:08 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Invalid comparison because of different strategies? :uhoh:

I guess you'll be handing Mercedes this weekend too, because Vettel was on a different strategy and Hamilton qualified on pole?

No, it's because in the first 15 laps of the race, when Hamilton and Vettel were on the same tyres, Hamilton kept within 1.5 seconds of Vettel and even forced Vettel to stop early to avoid an undercut.

But let me guess, it was Lewis' incredible ability to stay within 1.5 seconds of Vettel with a supposedly way inferior car?

Merc's top speed also meant that it was much easier for Hamilton to overtake Vettel than it was for Vettel to overtake Bottas, another factor that has to be considered when judging the best car.


Why resort to such hyperbole? 'way inferior', 'much easier', 'incredible ability'

You are talking about differences of hundredths of seconds in some cases here, you weaken your own argument with silliness like that. As for Spain, it took a very specific set of circumstances and more than a slice of luck to let Hamilton win there, and your argument about the first 15 laps there is comparable to the end stint of Belgium if you flip them, yet you've decided the Mercedes was the better car that weekend too.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:29 am 
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I just hope people can stop saying the current Merc is as dominant as the 2011 Redbull now. Jeez... they are holding on for dear life. Ferrari were quicker on race day in Hungary and Spa, should have destroyed them in Singapore and in Malaysia. As a Hamilton fan I'm very worried for Mercedes going forward to be honest.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:30 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Invalid comparison because of different strategies? :uhoh:

I guess you'll be handing Mercedes this weekend too, because Vettel was on a different strategy and Hamilton qualified on pole?

No, it's because in the first 15 laps of the race, when Hamilton and Vettel were on the same tyres, Hamilton kept within 1.5 seconds of Vettel and even forced Vettel to stop early to avoid an undercut.

But let me guess, it was Lewis' incredible ability to stay within 1.5 seconds of Vettel with a supposedly way inferior car?

Merc's top speed also meant that it was much easier for Hamilton to overtake Vettel than it was for Vettel to overtake Bottas, another factor that has to be considered when judging the best car.


Why resort to such hyperbole? 'way inferior', 'much easier', 'incredible ability'

You are talking about differences of hundredths of seconds in some cases here, you weaken your own argument with silliness like that. As for Spain, it took a very specific set of circumstances and more than a slice of luck to let Hamilton win there, and your argument about the first 15 laps there is comparable to the end stint of Belgium if you flip them, yet you've decided the Mercedes was the better car that weekend too.


The gap was 2.2 then 1.8 because Vettel hit traffic. It's true Mercedes pushed Ferrari into a pitstop but it didn't make any difference. They covered the undercut.

Vettel was 9 seconds ahead of Hamilton before the VSC, he lost 4 seconds behind Bottas so would have been 13. Vettel lost all this time due to his teams decision. Vettel wanted to pit under the VSC but the team didn't then reacted to late to Hamilton.
Also without the VSC Vettel would have done a longer middle stint on the faster tyre which extends the gap and he would have a shorter stint on the slower medium tyre.

This allowed Hamilton to be right with Vettel on the faster tyre which was 2 seconds a lap quicker with no wear. Vettel had no chance.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:33 am 
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kleefton wrote:
I just hope people can stop saying the current Merc is as dominant as the 2011 Redbull now. Jeez... they are holding on for dear life. Ferrari were quicker on race day in Hungary and Spa, should have destroyed them in Singapore and in Malaysia. As a Hamilton fan I'm very worried for Mercedes going forward to be honest.

I don't think I agree with this. Spa is debatable for me; certainly the Mercs were demonstrably quicker in qualifying and just because Vettel held onto Lewis doesn't make the Ferrari the quicker race car. Hungary and Singapore were always going to be Mercedes tracks. Today an upgrade didn't turn out as planned but I don''t think that heralds anything significant. Look at Monza where the Mercs absolutely obliterated the Ferraris and most thought that the Reds had fallen too far behind.

I'd be very surprised if the Mercs aren't back on it at the next race


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:37 am 
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Hamilton got very lucky in Singapore and Malaysia. The gap could have been big.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:39 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Hamilton got very lucky in Singapore and Malaysia. The gap could have been big.

Yes, I'd agree with that. Two races that should have been simple damage limitation and yet he extended his lead enormously


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:40 am 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I just hope people can stop saying the current Merc is as dominant as the 2011 Redbull now. Jeez... they are holding on for dear life. Ferrari were quicker on race day in Hungary and Spa, should have destroyed them in Singapore and in Malaysia. As a Hamilton fan I'm very worried for Mercedes going forward to be honest.

I don't think I agree with this. Spa is debatable for me; certainly the Mercs were demonstrably quicker in qualifying and just because Vettel held onto Lewis doesn't make the Ferrari the quicker race car. Hungary and Singapore were always going to be Mercedes tracks. Today an upgrade didn't turn out as planned but I don''t think that heralds anything significant. Look at Monza where the Mercs absolutely obliterated the Ferraris and most thought that the Reds had fallen too far behind.

I'd be very surprised if the Mercs aren't back on it at the next race


Monza was an outlier for Mercedes, Singapore was an outlier for Ferrari. This weekend was meant to be very close, yet Mercedes weren't at the races at all, and going forward that's not a trend that lends itself to saying the Mercedes is definitely the better car, we will see in Japan. Given how badly Bottas was off the pace of the rest of the top 4 (would have been 5 had Kimi started) with the newer upgrades, right now it's not looking so good.

The flipside being if Ferrari's current speed advantage is at the expense of reliability... though they are going to some pretty grand lengths to point out that the failed parts on both cars this weekend are from an outside supplier.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:44 am 
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Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Hamilton got very lucky in Singapore and Malaysia. The gap could have been big.

Yes, I'd agree with that. Two races that should have been simple damage limitation and yet he extended his lead enormously


With only 3 points before Singapore, Hamilton could have been quite far behind and with how the Ferrari is performing I would have been worried.
Maybe a gearbox penalty for Vettel at Japan which is a difficult track to overtake on. Seems to be going through a lucky patch.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:45 am 
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Surely Bottas running the upgrades all race will help the team out?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:48 am 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I just hope people can stop saying the current Merc is as dominant as the 2011 Redbull now. Jeez... they are holding on for dear life. Ferrari were quicker on race day in Hungary and Spa, should have destroyed them in Singapore and in Malaysia. As a Hamilton fan I'm very worried for Mercedes going forward to be honest.

I don't think I agree with this. Spa is debatable for me; certainly the Mercs were demonstrably quicker in qualifying and just because Vettel held onto Lewis doesn't make the Ferrari the quicker race car. Hungary and Singapore were always going to be Mercedes tracks. Today an upgrade didn't turn out as planned but I don''t think that heralds anything significant. Look at Monza where the Mercs absolutely obliterated the Ferraris and most thought that the Reds had fallen too far behind.

I'd be very surprised if the Mercs aren't back on it at the next race


I've already discussed this in other threads, but when a car is within 2 seconds of you all race, on a circuit where dirty air is a huge factor, it usually means that car is faster. I know you disagree, but I stand by my opinion. Ferrari was faster in Spa. The qualifying is meaningless because Vettel had a couple of chances to overtake but it didn't work out for him. If he had gotten past he would have built a gap. I am 100% confident of it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:51 am 
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Ferrari has been the fastest race car in 3 out if the last 4 races now. Including one where you would have expected Merc to be very much on top. Has the tide turned? If Ferrari are quicker for the remainder of the year then Vettel could overcome.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:53 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I just hope people can stop saying the current Merc is as dominant as the 2011 Redbull now. Jeez... they are holding on for dear life. Ferrari were quicker on race day in Hungary and Spa, should have destroyed them in Singapore and in Malaysia. As a Hamilton fan I'm very worried for Mercedes going forward to be honest.

I don't think I agree with this. Spa is debatable for me; certainly the Mercs were demonstrably quicker in qualifying and just because Vettel held onto Lewis doesn't make the Ferrari the quicker race car. Hungary and Singapore were always going to be Mercedes tracks. Today an upgrade didn't turn out as planned but I don''t think that heralds anything significant. Look at Monza where the Mercs absolutely obliterated the Ferraris and most thought that the Reds had fallen too far behind.

I'd be very surprised if the Mercs aren't back on it at the next race


I've already discussed this in other threads, but when a car is within 2 seconds of you all race, on a circuit where dirty air is a huge factor, it usually means that car is faster. I know you disagree, but I stand by my opinion. Ferrari was faster in Spa. The qualifying is meaningless because Vettel had a couple of chances to overtake but it didn't work out for him. If he had gotten past he would have built a gap. I am 100% confident of it.


Plus the Ferrari is better on its tyres, many believe Hamilton had to stop again and the SC helped them out.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:55 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Ferrari has been the fastest race car in 3 out if the last 4 races now. Including one where you would have expected Merc to be very much on top. Has the tide turned? If Ferrari are quicker for the remainder of the year then Vettel could overcome.


I would not be surprised at all if Ferrari is the quickest car for the remaining races to be honest. I think what we are witnessing is the end of the Mercedes domination. Merc usually never misses out on updates. Whenever you are missing out on updates, that is a sign that you are struggling.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:57 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Belgium, China and Bahrain for Mercedes :lol: you are just trying to find circuits to give Mercedes the advantage.

In both Belgium and Bahrain, Mercedes was clearly quicker in qualifying. The cars were roughly equal in the race, in which case qualifying is the tiebreaker.

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In Spain Ferrari was easily the quickest car. When Mercedes needed Bottas holding Vettel, VSC and a Ferrari shortened faster tyre stint to win the race.

In the first stint, Hamilton was just as fast as Vettel and even catching him at the end of the stint. After that Vettel was on a different strategy, so the comparison becomes invalid.

If you are just judging by qualifying then what's the need of this thread?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:00 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
The gap was 2.2 then 1.8 because Vettel hit traffic. It's true Mercedes pushed Ferrari into a pitstop but it didn't make any difference. They covered the undercut.

Hamilton had to clear the same traffic, and if Ferrari was truly faster, they would be able to extend their gap by more than 1.8 seconds in 15 laps.

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Vettel was 9 seconds ahead of Hamilton before the VSC, he lost 4 seconds behind Bottas so would have been 13. Vettel lost all this time due to his teams decision. Vettel wanted to pit under the VSC but the team didn't then reacted to late to Hamilton.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Vettel spent the middle part of the race on the quicker soft tyres while Hamilton was on the medium tyres. That's the only reason why he "should have been 13 seconds ahead".

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Also without the VSC Vettel would have done a longer middle stint on the faster tyre which extends the gap and he would have a shorter stint on the slower medium tyre.

This allowed Hamilton to be right with Vettel on the faster tyre which was 2 seconds a lap quicker with no wear. Vettel had no chance.

Now your argument has derailed from Ferrari being the faster car, to Ferrari having picked a better strategy in a hypothetical scenario where there is no VSC.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
If you are just judging by qualifying then what's the need of this thread?

Qualifying is the tiebreaker when race pace is too close to call (eg. Bahrain and Belgium). It's not that difficult to comprehend.

In weekends where both qualy and race pace are equal, I label the cars as equal (eg. Spain).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:04 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
The gap was 2.2 then 1.8 because Vettel hit traffic. It's true Mercedes pushed Ferrari into a pitstop but it didn't make any difference. They covered the undercut.

Hamilton had to clear the same traffic, and if Ferrari was truly faster, they would be able to extend their gap by more than 1.8 seconds in 15 laps.

Quote:
Vettel was 9 seconds ahead of Hamilton before the VSC, he lost 4 seconds behind Bottas so would have been 13. Vettel lost all this time due to his teams decision. Vettel wanted to pit under the VSC but the team didn't then reacted to late to Hamilton.

You are completely ignoring the fact that Vettel spent the middle part of the race on the quicker soft tyres while Hamilton was on the medium tyres. That's the only reason why he "should have been 13 seconds ahead".

Quote:
Also without the VSC Vettel would have done a longer middle stint on the faster tyre which extends the gap and he would have a shorter stint on the slower medium tyre.

This allowed Hamilton to be right with Vettel on the faster tyre which was 2 seconds a lap quicker with no wear. Vettel had no chance.

Now your argument has derailed from Ferrari being the faster car, to Ferrari having picked a better strategy in a hypothetical scenario where there is no VSC.


No, I am just reminding you the events that needed to happen to help Hamilton win. Without those Hamilton wouldn't have come close to winning. All race reports I read said Ferrari was the faster car, just Ferrari strategiets gave Mercedes a gift.

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