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Stoffel Vandoorne
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Author:  Lotus49 [ Sun May 21, 2017 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
No way last second. Massa was alongside for a long while BEFORE they even reached the turn. No excuse for the turn in.


A long way?. Did you watch the video I put up?. At 8s Massa pulls alongside and at 9 Stoff is braking. To be honest it looks even closer than that.

Watch Stoff's car from Massa's onboard, it's almost instantaneous and I think that's what he was focusing on having already dismissed the possibility(wrongly of course) of Massa being there.

It's not nothing, you should always be aware as I said and it's a silly mistake but Massa's race wasn't ruined and he only took himself out so I think the penalty is harsh as there's no way that happens if he has any other engine on the grid and there was nothing malicious, or intentionally aggressive about it, he just made a mistake in thinking Massa was too far away and so was focused solely on taking the corner rather than who was on track, which again is poor awareness but under the circumstances forgivable for me.

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I get that these kind of things can come down to personal opinions a lot of the time and the stewards certainly saw it more your way than mine so I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Author:  F1 MERCENARY [ Mon May 22, 2017 5:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mcdo wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub

This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use it

Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected

Sorry, am I supposed to care how you feel about me? As far as I am aware I have the liberty to use the word Scrub if "I" feel it is warranted.

"IF" you guys reference the other thread where Zack Brown talked him up as being as good as some elite ALL-TIME greats, and look at all the commentary in there about how people are inclined to not only believe but agree with such nonsense, Vandoorne's performance thus far deems him a scrub. You don't have to agree with me but you also don't have to chime in to say things from your pedestal.

While I am educated, JUST LIKE Stephen A. Smith, I grew up in the hood and can speak properly whilst interjecting a little reality from my upbringing, which you likely know nothing about and can't relate.

Feel free to search youtube for Stephen A. Smith Kwame Brown and have a listen. Does the fact he calls him a SCRUB so vehemently warrant anyone to despise him because they disagree? I don't think so, and he is entitled to his opinion, of which I happened to agree with.

If you compare this next anointed one to those he was said to be as good as or better, he's performed FAR below those bold projections. I on the other hand stated that it was indeed far too bold a statement to make specifically because he'd never driven a lap in an F1 car and we would only ever be able to comment on his ability once we got to see him turn laps. I've seen too many "Next Best Things" make it to the bigtime in several sports, only to see them fail miserably. I'm not saying Vandoorne wont ever become superb, but right now he is NOWHERE in the vicinity of being as good as Zack Brown stated.

Unless he was in the middle of a very long build up to a sneeze, his take on the clash with Massa is total and utter BS.

"He was “quite surprised” to find Felipe Massa alongside him when he went into Turn 1 in Spain."

http://www.planetf1.com/news/vandoorne- ... a-contact/

Sorry but Massa was not only alongside him for a VERY long way, but was even ahead of him and Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMi3sUnR5nw

His penalty at Monaco is rather light in my opinion.

All I see is Americans having to go to extremes to make their point. Zak Brown on one extreme end of the scale, your good self on the other. Difference of culture I guess

Fact of the matter is Stoffel Vandoorne is a good driver. Nothing more, nothing less at this early stage

YOU might think he's a good driver, nothing more, nothing less, but others were adamant Brown wasn't too far off in his statement, which is absurd to agree with without ever having seen him in and among the best drivers in F1 or even in an actual f1 car for that matter.

His clash with Massa may have been s mistake but it was a bad one. The fact he didn't cost Massa his race is irrelevant because it doesn't negate the fact he made a silly mistake.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Mon May 22, 2017 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

And 5 races of not matching the best in the sport does not negate a phenomenal junior record. I really don't see how people could've expected much better. So far Vandoorne is at least as close as Kimi was and he has managed a decent career.

Author:  Pullrod [ Mon May 22, 2017 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mikeyg123 wrote:
And 5 races of not matching the best in the sport does not negate a phenomenal junior record. I really don't see how people could've expected much better. So far Vandoorne is at least as close as Kimi was and he has managed a decent career.


Oh please stop with this crap.. we are not talking about 2 teammates who are doing athletics where someone is simply physically superior and there is nothing you can do about it(ala Usain Bolt).

Both are using a mechanical machine so the max they can achieve is the max their machine can do. If Alonso can do it, anyone who is to be mega should be able to do it too.

Kimi, Massa and very bad examples because it happened in Ferrari and we know how it works there.

Vandoorne is successfully "doping" Alonso ratings, because I can assure you with a competent guy in that car, Alonso would not be doing ovals today.

Author:  mcdo [ Mon May 22, 2017 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Exediron wrote:
mcdo wrote:
All I see is Americans having to go to extremes to make their point. Zak Brown on one extreme end of the scale, your good self on the other. Difference of culture I guess

Fact of the matter is Stoffel Vandoorne is a good driver. Nothing more, nothing less at this early stage

It's a bit ironic to complain about people going to unreasonable extremes in the same sentence you claim that all Americans do it... :uhoh:

I didn't say all. Only an idiot would generalize like that

Author:  Fiki [ Mon May 22, 2017 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.
There's no need to write nonsense. He didn't deliberately turn into Massa. If he did, he should have his superlicence taken away. Nor does he lack "total spacial awareness", he wouldn't be driving in the premier motor racing class if he did. He may have had a momentary loss of spacial awareness. It happens to all of us, even F1 drivers. Even to world champions. So there's no need to write about a total lack of SA.

Author:  ALESI [ Mon May 22, 2017 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

guardiangr wrote:
Seriously now? After only 5 races where he completed ONLY 2 of them with 2 DNFs and 1 DNS? The nerve of couch critics today where they expect every rookie to instantly perform like Hamilton did in 2007 like that's the norm and not the exception, while he's driving a dog of a car and against one of the best drivers currently.

Give the new guys some slack, let them race and if 2 years from now are nowhere THEN you can say whatever you want.


100% this.

Author:  mcdo [ Mon May 22, 2017 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mcdo wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
At that very moment one word popped into my head… Scrub

This is such an insulting term and I'm growing to despise you the more you use it

Now, that's unless Stoffel Vandoorne has been hanging out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, trying to holler at you. In that case I stand corrected

Sorry, am I supposed to care how you feel about me? As far as I am aware I have the liberty to use the word Scrub if "I" feel it is warranted.

"IF" you guys reference the other thread where Zack Brown talked him up as being as good as some elite ALL-TIME greats, and look at all the commentary in there about how people are inclined to not only believe but agree with such nonsense, Vandoorne's performance thus far deems him a scrub. You don't have to agree with me but you also don't have to chime in to say things from your pedestal.

While I am educated, JUST LIKE Stephen A. Smith, I grew up in the hood and can speak properly whilst interjecting a little reality from my upbringing, which you likely know nothing about and can't relate.

Feel free to search youtube for Stephen A. Smith Kwame Brown and have a listen. Does the fact he calls him a SCRUB so vehemently warrant anyone to despise him because they disagree? I don't think so, and he is entitled to his opinion, of which I happened to agree with.

If you compare this next anointed one to those he was said to be as good as or better, he's performed FAR below those bold projections. I on the other hand stated that it was indeed far too bold a statement to make specifically because he'd never driven a lap in an F1 car and we would only ever be able to comment on his ability once we got to see him turn laps. I've seen too many "Next Best Things" make it to the bigtime in several sports, only to see them fail miserably. I'm not saying Vandoorne wont ever become superb, but right now he is NOWHERE in the vicinity of being as good as Zack Brown stated.

Unless he was in the middle of a very long build up to a sneeze, his take on the clash with Massa is total and utter BS.

"He was “quite surprised” to find Felipe Massa alongside him when he went into Turn 1 in Spain."

http://www.planetf1.com/news/vandoorne- ... a-contact/

Sorry but Massa was not only alongside him for a VERY long way, but was even ahead of him and Vandoorne either deliberately turned in on him or he lacks total spacial awareness, and going based off his entire career, I'm inclined to say it wasn't the latter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMi3sUnR5nw

His penalty at Monaco is rather light in my opinion.

All I see is Americans having to go to extremes to make their point. Zak Brown on one extreme end of the scale, your good self on the other. Difference of culture I guess

Fact of the matter is Stoffel Vandoorne is a good driver. Nothing more, nothing less at this early stage

YOU might think he's a good driver, nothing more, nothing less, but others were adamant Brown wasn't too far off in his statement, which is absurd to agree with without ever having seen him in and among the best drivers in F1 or even in an actual f1 car for that matter.

His clash with Massa may have been s mistake but it was a bad one. The fact he didn't cost Massa his race is irrelevant because it doesn't negate the fact he made a silly mistake.

He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

Author:  Pullrod [ Mon May 22, 2017 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

Rosberg had plenty of peaks although his racecraft was terrible but look how much it improved(his racecraft). If you have no peaks, you will not do wonders at the front.

I just find annoying that we must thank Vandoorne for his awesome job because he is not matching Alonso(which is impossible according to some), but at the same time people crucified Kovalainen, Magnussen and Perez for not beating Hamilton or Button.
__


My opinion is that Vandoorne may be needs to deconstruct his driving style and eliminate all his "bad" habits from his racing in the minor series to be competitive in F1(Boullier hinted at something similar).

May be it is just the case of someone who started much later in F1 (like Sebastien Bourdais) and find it difficult to change his driving style.
In a way it reminds me of the world of quantitative finance where in some research groups, they prefer Computer Scientists/Physicists/Mathematicians/Engineers who know NOTHING about finance as they believe a lot of what is written in the Finance books(or what is taught at the university) is rubbish and actually counterproductive if you want to build profitable models.

He should have started F1 racing 3-4 years ago at least.

Author:  nixxxon [ Mon May 22, 2017 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Not wanting to defend Vandoorne, but Alonso has always been a very agressive driver, and with the new regulations Alonso has "unleashed all his fury" and he can push all the way, something that he couldn't do with the slimmer more delicate tires. So the difference between him and his team mate (no matter who) would be bigger this year than the previous ones.

Author:  Zoue [ Mon May 22, 2017 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Pullrod wrote:
The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

Rosberg had plenty of peaks although his racecraft was terrible but look how much it improved(his racecraft). If you have no peaks, you will not do wonders at the front.

I just find annoying that we must thank Vandoorne for his awesome job because he is not matching Alonso(which is impossible according to some), but at the same time people crucified Kovalainen, Magnussen and Perez for not beating Hamilton or Button.
__


My opinion is that Vandoorne may be needs to deconstruct his driving style and eliminate all his "bad" habits from his racing in the minor series to be competitive in F1(Boullier hinted at something similar).

May be it is just the case of someone who started much later in F1 (like Sebastien Bourdais) and find it difficult to change his driving style.
In a way it reminds me of the world of quantitative finance where in some research groups, they prefer Computer Scientists/Physicists/Mathematicians/Engineers who know NOTHING about finance as they believe a lot of what is written in the Finance books(or what is taught at the university) is rubbish and actually counterproductive if you want to build profitable models.

He should have started F1 racing 3-4 years ago at least.

I'm not sure your comparisons are all apt.

Kovaleinen was in his 2nd year of F1 and was sat in one of the best cars on the grid, but made it look like a midfield car at best. In his 2nd year at McLaren the car wasn't as strong, but that was his 3rd year in F1 and Hamilton was fighting for wins, while Kovy couldn't get near a podium. He was just poor but he had two years to show what he could do. Which wasn't much, as it turned out.

I don't think I've seen Perez slated that much, tbh. I've seen many people put forward the argument that he wasn't given a fair crack of the whip at McLaren. But he joined them in his 3rd year in F1, so his learning curve should have been sorted by then, too. I think he as just a victim of the Dennis-Whitmarsh power play but I don't remember anyone saying he was rubbish.

Magnussen is probably the most comparable and I remember him being hyped on a similar level to Vandoorne when he joined McLaren. Again, I don't remember him being slated exactly, but he had the misfortune to be pairing a former WDC while McLaren offered arguably the best driver on the grid - and another former WDC - a seat at the team. It's understandable that he was the one left without a seat. But I think he was given a chance in his first year.

Author:  Pullrod [ Mon May 22, 2017 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

Rosberg had plenty of peaks although his racecraft was terrible but look how much it improved(his racecraft). If you have no peaks, you will not do wonders at the front.

I just find annoying that we must thank Vandoorne for his awesome job because he is not matching Alonso(which is impossible according to some), but at the same time people crucified Kovalainen, Magnussen and Perez for not beating Hamilton or Button.
__


My opinion is that Vandoorne may be needs to deconstruct his driving style and eliminate all his "bad" habits from his racing in the minor series to be competitive in F1(Boullier hinted at something similar).

May be it is just the case of someone who started much later in F1 (like Sebastien Bourdais) and find it difficult to change his driving style.
In a way it reminds me of the world of quantitative finance where in some research groups, they prefer Computer Scientists/Physicists/Mathematicians/Engineers who know NOTHING about finance as they believe a lot of what is written in the Finance books(or what is taught at the university) is rubbish and actually counterproductive if you want to build profitable models.

He should have started F1 racing 3-4 years ago at least.

I'm not sure your comparisons are all apt.

Kovaleinen was in his 2nd year of F1 and was sat in one of the best cars on the grid, but made it look like a midfield car at best. In his 2nd year at McLaren the car wasn't as strong, but that was his 3rd year in F1 and Hamilton was fighting for wins, while Kovy couldn't get near a podium. He was just poor but he had two years to show what he could do. Which wasn't much, as it turned out.

I don't think I've seen Perez slated that much, tbh. I've seen many people put forward the argument that he wasn't given a fair crack of the whip at McLaren. But he joined them in his 3rd year in F1, so his learning curve should have been sorted by then, too. I think he as just a victim of the Dennis-Whitmarsh power play but I don't remember anyone saying he was rubbish.

Magnussen is probably the most comparable and I remember him being hyped on a similar level to Vandoorne when he joined McLaren. Again, I don't remember him being slated exactly, but he had the misfortune to be pairing a former WDC while McLaren offered arguably the best driver on the grid - and another former WDC - a seat at the team. It's understandable that he was the one left without a seat. But I think he was given a chance in his first year.


If you have any speed, you show it from day one. It was the case with Hamilton, It was the case with Vettel. Another one who has peaks of speed is Wherlein(not even Verstappen).

The situation in McLaren as it stands fits perfectly your narrative "Alonso is the best in the world" as you(and others) never miss to mention every 2 posts.
Who knows why only the Alonso fans feel the need to repeat it ad nauseam. A mystery to me..

I didn't defend Kovalainen at the time even though he was not really a rookie and I would not pretend Vandoorne performance were acceptable if he was Hamilton's teammate.

It is impossible with today technology for a driver who is to become the next WDC to be outqualified consistently by his teammate by more then 3-4 tenths. Not even if his teammate was GOD. Remove Alonso from the equation and Vandoorne would still be dead last..driving a McLaren. If that is acceptable I don't know what to say.

Author:  mcdo [ Mon May 22, 2017 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Pullrod wrote:
The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

His debut GP was most certainly a peak. And that was a major reason why I believed he was going to be a lot closer to Alonso this year

Author:  Lotus49 [ Mon May 22, 2017 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
The problem is that we have seen no peaks from Vandoorne. Yes 5 races are not a lot, but in practice, qualifying or in the race, it is possible to produce a "burst" of something.

His debut GP was most certainly a peak. And that was a major reason why I believed he was going to be a lot closer to Alonso this year


Yeah Bahrain tends to get forgotten about.

Also this year small mistakes are costing big gaps to team mates, Lewis and Bottas half a second in Russia,Dan and Max half a second in Spain, same as Stoff and Alonso and then look at the Haas boys, both experienced now but are trading qualifying ahead of each other by 1 second. 2s swings depending on circuit and that's without driving around gear change and driveability issues.

I do think he needs another big showing soon though of course.

Author:  tootsie323 [ Mon May 22, 2017 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

When that Macca is showing consistent reliability, and at least some lip-service to pace, I'll start to draw some opinion on Vandoorne's ability.
I'm not taking Alonso's performances this year as a benchmark either - else I might as well state that Hamilton simply did not drive well enough to beat Rosberg to the WDC last year.

Author:  kleefton [ Mon May 22, 2017 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

I still believe there is some quality in Stoffel, but I must admit I've been taken aback to how little he has done so far in F1.
Yes the car isn't good nor reliable and he is not always getting the same parts as Alonso, if you go by what he said. But I just do not see anything so far from him that might suggest he is going to be great. Ok, in a car that slow and difficult to drive I'm not asking for speed yet, but where is the race craft? Has he overtaken anyone so far this year? Again, hard to do with that car. But Jules Bianchi used to shine in what was almost always the worst car on the grid so why haven't we seen Vandoorne do anything remotely similar so far? Right at this moment if we were to rate the worst drivers on the grid, he might be among the worst three...
It may be too early to tell, as many have pointed out, so I'll reserve final judgement for later, but so far not so good.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Mon May 22, 2017 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

kleefton wrote:
I still believe there is some quality in Stoffel, but I must admit I've been taken aback to how little he has done so far in F1.
Yes the car isn't good nor reliable and he is not always getting the same parts as Alonso, if you go by what he said. But I just do not see anything so far from him that might suggest he is going to be great. Ok, in a car that slow and difficult to drive I'm not asking for speed yet, but where is the race craft? Has he overtaken anyone so far this year? Again, hard to do with that car. But Jules Bianchi used to shine in what was almost always the worst car on the grid so why haven't we seen Vandoorne do anything remotely similar so far? Right at this moment if we were to rate the worst drivers on the grid, he might be among the worst three...
It may be too early to tell, as many have pointed out, so I'll reserve final judgement for later, but so far not so good.


Would Bianchi have looked good though if his team mate was qualifying half a second faster and racing higher up the order? Much easier to shine if your team mate is Max Chilton than Alonso. Look at another rookie Ocon. Can't beat Perez Perez but isn't under pressure because the car is able to score regular points. If Alonso was fighting for 6/7 And Stoffel 10/11 then he wouldn't be getting criticised even if the gap was the same.

Basically he us the victim of a car slower than most people expected and having a great team mate.

Author:  F1 MERCENARY [ Mon May 22, 2017 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mcdo wrote:
He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

BINGO!!!…

Precisely my point. And to clarify one thing, I think it's quite possible he's still coming to terms with not only his chuck wagon of a car, but also the speed of F1. I realize not every driver is immediately comfortable enough to get up to speed straight away, but the odds are that those whom aren't immediately in the vicinity of the fastest guys, generally fizz out and get replaced. Incredibly, some hold onto a seat for many years while floundering about, placing lower than their equipment is capable of, so who knows. Hopefully Vandoorne figures things out and gets up to speed and proves he is top notch. I'd certainly welcome that scenario.

Ki Jana Carter, Ryan Leaf, Harold ("Baby Jordan" – Ha!… Riiiiiiiight!) Minor, Gino Toretta, Kwame Brown, Jamarcus Russel, Sam Bowie, Shawn Bradley, Tractor Traylor, Tommy Byrne, were all guys who were touted to be top guys int he big leagues but for one reason, or several, they simply fell well short of the mark when competing among top-level pros. So far Vandoorne isn't too far adrift from that from what I've seen, but hoping he's able to turn it around.

Author:  kleefton [ Tue May 23, 2017 1:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I still believe there is some quality in Stoffel, but I must admit I've been taken aback to how little he has done so far in F1.
Yes the car isn't good nor reliable and he is not always getting the same parts as Alonso, if you go by what he said. But I just do not see anything so far from him that might suggest he is going to be great. Ok, in a car that slow and difficult to drive I'm not asking for speed yet, but where is the race craft? Has he overtaken anyone so far this year? Again, hard to do with that car. But Jules Bianchi used to shine in what was almost always the worst car on the grid so why haven't we seen Vandoorne do anything remotely similar so far? Right at this moment if we were to rate the worst drivers on the grid, he might be among the worst three...
It may be too early to tell, as many have pointed out, so I'll reserve final judgement for later, but so far not so good.


Would Bianchi have looked good though if his team mate was qualifying half a second faster and racing higher up the order? Much easier to shine if your team mate is Max Chilton than Alonso. Look at another rookie Ocon. Can't beat Perez Perez but isn't under pressure because the car is able to score regular points. If Alonso was fighting for 6/7 And Stoffel 10/11 then he wouldn't be getting criticised even if the gap was the same.

Basically he us the victim of a car slower than most people expected and having a great team mate.


Bianchi didnt just dominate Chilton, he used to beat the Caterham drivers as well, and consistently.

Now with Vandoorne, there were people in the sport saying he was better than Vettel, better than Hamilton. He was supposed to be great, not just good. Ocon wasnt nearly as highly rated so i wouldnt compare them. The problem is that so far Vandoorne has not even been decent, so forget about great. Im not burying the guy but just saying that I expected to see some quality drives from him this year and so far i havent. But yeah its still early and a very small sample. We shall see.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Tue May 23, 2017 4:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

kleefton wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I still believe there is some quality in Stoffel, but I must admit I've been taken aback to how little he has done so far in F1.
Yes the car isn't good nor reliable and he is not always getting the same parts as Alonso, if you go by what he said. But I just do not see anything so far from him that might suggest he is going to be great. Ok, in a car that slow and difficult to drive I'm not asking for speed yet, but where is the race craft? Has he overtaken anyone so far this year? Again, hard to do with that car. But Jules Bianchi used to shine in what was almost always the worst car on the grid so why haven't we seen Vandoorne do anything remotely similar so far? Right at this moment if we were to rate the worst drivers on the grid, he might be among the worst three...
It may be too early to tell, as many have pointed out, so I'll reserve final judgement for later, but so far not so good.


Would Bianchi have looked good though if his team mate was qualifying half a second faster and racing higher up the order? Much easier to shine if your team mate is Max Chilton than Alonso. Look at another rookie Ocon. Can't beat Perez Perez but isn't under pressure because the car is able to score regular points. If Alonso was fighting for 6/7 And Stoffel 10/11 then he wouldn't be getting criticised even if the gap was the same.

Basically he us the victim of a car slower than most people expected and having a great team mate.


Bianchi didnt just dominate Chilton, he used to beat the Caterham drivers as well, and consistently.

Now with Vandoorne, there were people in the sport saying he was better than Vettel, better than Hamilton. He was supposed to be great, not just good. Ocon wasnt nearly as highly rated so i wouldnt compare them. The problem is that so far Vandoorne has not even been decent, so forget about great. Im not burying the guy but just saying that I expected to see some quality drives from him this year and so far i havent. But yeah its still early and a very small sample. We shall see.


Don't disagree with much here but I don't think others saying how great he was going to be should be held against him. I think his performances have been ok when put into context.

Author:  mds [ Tue May 23, 2017 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

He's had a hard time adapting, and in an interview Boullier hinted as to why this was: apparently he's braking too late as this is what is needed to be successful in feeder series and he hasn't been able to really adapt yet. Which is not an excuse, just an explanation - and those who would criticize him for not adapting fast enough have a point. On the other hand though, his mileage in F1 has been very limited and his mileage at actual representative speed has even been lower. He's driven pretty much all of testing in very conservative mode (= no chance to learn the car at its limits), he's been riddled with issues in qualifying, he hasn't started one and hasn't finished two out of five races.
I think he should be given some leeway given the ridiculously low mileage he's gotten.

Now, I'm not sure so many people ever said he would be a great in F1. What was definitely true is that he had a fantastic junior curriculum and that he deserved a spot in F1 to prove himself. He is in F1 on merit. Question now is whether he can stay in F1 on merit.

Especiallly puzzling to me is that he has always, in any series, been fast from the go. FR1.6, FR2.0, FR3.5, GP2, Super Formula (remember he had a car disadvantage there) - he got in, he was fast. Always, no exception. Qualifying ace, race craft and a good racing brain as well, not many mistakes. So him struggling now is something weird to see.

I don't think we should judge now. He'll get the season, and more than likely the season after this one as I don't think McLaren have anyone in the waiting for now (Lando Norris is most likely next in line but too young/inexperienced still). We have time to judge him, as have McLaren. For now he gets my support, as I've supported him ever since I've saw him winning at Spa in FR1.6 in 2010.

Think I'll be making an "official" thread for him, I have some ideas for that.

Author:  mcdo [ Tue May 23, 2017 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mcdo wrote:
He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

BINGO!!!…

Precisely my point. And to clarify one thing, I think it's quite possible he's still coming to terms with not only his chuck wagon of a car, but also the speed of F1. I realize not every driver is immediately comfortable enough to get up to speed straight away, but the odds are that those whom aren't immediately in the vicinity of the fastest guys, generally fizz out and get replaced. Incredibly, some hold onto a seat for many years while floundering about, placing lower than their equipment is capable of, so who knows. Hopefully Vandoorne figures things out and gets up to speed and proves he is top notch. I'd certainly welcome that scenario.

Ki Jana Carter, Ryan Leaf, Harold ("Baby Jordan" – Ha!… Riiiiiiiight!) Minor, Gino Toretta, Kwame Brown, Jamarcus Russel, Sam Bowie, Shawn Bradley, Tractor Traylor, Tommy Byrne, were all guys who were touted to be top guys int he big leagues but for one reason, or several, they simply fell well short of the mark when competing among top-level pros. So far Vandoorne isn't too far adrift from that from what I've seen, but hoping he's able to turn it around.

In his debut GP he did get up to speed straight away. He demonstrated the ability that many were expecting (I'd even say he exceeded expectations). There has been a change this year that's clearly affecting him

Is it the change in regulations? Is it the backmarker car? Is it the fact he's teamed up with Alonso and not Button? Maybe it's all 3. Time will tell

Author:  pokerman [ Tue May 23, 2017 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mcdo wrote:
He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

BINGO!!!…

Precisely my point. And to clarify one thing, I think it's quite possible he's still coming to terms with not only his chuck wagon of a car, but also the speed of F1. I realize not every driver is immediately comfortable enough to get up to speed straight away, but the odds are that those whom aren't immediately in the vicinity of the fastest guys, generally fizz out and get replaced. Incredibly, some hold onto a seat for many years while floundering about, placing lower than their equipment is capable of, so who knows. Hopefully Vandoorne figures things out and gets up to speed and proves he is top notch. I'd certainly welcome that scenario.

Ki Jana Carter, Ryan Leaf, Harold ("Baby Jordan" – Ha!… Riiiiiiiight!) Minor, Gino Toretta, Kwame Brown, Jamarcus Russel, Sam Bowie, Shawn Bradley, Tractor Traylor, Tommy Byrne, were all guys who were touted to be top guys int he big leagues but for one reason, or several, they simply fell well short of the mark when competing among top-level pros. So far Vandoorne isn't too far adrift from that from what I've seen, but hoping he's able to turn it around.

I thought that was a list of made up drivers until I saw the name Tommy Byrne. :lol:

In regards to Tommy Byrne he was never given the chance in the first place, PR savvy he was never not.

Author:  mds [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Bumping this thread again. I think Stoffel had a very good race yesterday, especially the first part. But I feel he got let down HUGELY by his team.
I mean, he's starting with a disadvantage - his PU was performing a lot less than the (upgraded, I take it?) one Alonso had, posting speeds consistently 10km/u lower or more.

But OK, he's on the harder tyre, he starts well, he's ahead of Alonso, he's keeping up with those ahead. Then, after 7 (!!) laps, he gets pitted for supersoft tyres. He then posts very good lap times but then the SC comes out and all those he would have jumped are taking an almost free pit stop - Vandoorne losing out hugely and dropping back down the order. From there on it was pretty much game over.

Now... Why on earth did McLaren pit him after just 7 laps, when doing well on the harder tyre and in an SC-prone race? Why could they not let him out until an SC and give him a free pit stop as well? The only thing I can see it gained them, and I don't want to go the conspiracy route but I really don't see anything else it could remotely be, is get him out of Alonso's way. But if that was the goal, why not just give him the order to let him by and get on with it?
No, they are going the route of extra pit stop in an SC-prone race. Bonkers.

A decent strategy would have meant two cars in the points for McLaren, and some relief for Vandoorne. But they left him hanging and now everybody can go on about how disappointing Vandoorne has been.

A damn shame, this.

Author:  nixxxon [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mcdo wrote:
He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

Definitely.... No.

Alonso got only two podiums and a win in F3000, finished 4th in the championship, Bruno Junqueira and Nicolas Minassian finished 1st and 2nd. Where are those two now? Webber was the 3rd placed.
2002, Justin Wilson won comfortably ahead of Webber, what did he do in F1?
2003, Bjorn Wirdheim dominates, where he got from here?
2004, Liuzzi completely dominates, what did he do in F1?

Recent cases... Jolyon Palmer, 2014 GP2 winner... results in F1?

Author:  mds [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

nixxxon wrote:
mcdo wrote:
He's the most successful GP2 driver of all time. That's a good driver. Whether that translates into F1 success remains to be seen

Definitely.... No.


Well it's a bit too soon to rule over Vandoorne, right?

But you do have a good point that we've seen a lot of drivers in the past not delivering on their capabilities shown in feeder series.

Author:  Zoue [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mds wrote:
Bumping this thread again. I think Stoffel had a very good race yesterday, especially the first part. But I feel he got let down HUGELY by his team.
I mean, he's starting with a disadvantage - his PU was performing a lot less than the (upgraded, I take it?) one Alonso had, posting speeds consistently 10km/u lower or more.

But OK, he's on the harder tyre, he starts well, he's ahead of Alonso, he's keeping up with those ahead. Then, after 7 (!!) laps, he gets pitted for supersoft tyres. He then posts very good lap times but then the SC comes out and all those he would have jumped are taking an almost free pit stop - Vandoorne losing out hugely and dropping back down the order. From there on it was pretty much game over.

Now... Why on earth did McLaren pit him after just 7 laps, when doing well on the harder tyre and in an SC-prone race? Why could they not let him out until an SC and give him a free pit stop as well? The only thing I can see it gained them, and I don't want to go the conspiracy route but I really don't see anything else it could remotely be, is get him out of Alonso's way. But if that was the goal, why not just give him the order to let him by and get on with it?
No, they are going the route of extra pit stop in an SC-prone race. Bonkers.

A decent strategy would have meant two cars in the points for McLaren, and some relief for Vandoorne. But they left him hanging and now everybody can go on about how disappointing Vandoorne has been.

A damn shame, this.

Yes, I'd agree. Pitting him was both unnecessary and ruined his race

Author:  DirtyMike [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mds wrote:
Bumping this thread again. I think Stoffel had a very good race yesterday, especially the first part. But I feel he got let down HUGELY by his team.
I mean, he's starting with a disadvantage - his PU was performing a lot less than the (upgraded, I take it?) one Alonso had, posting speeds consistently 10km/u lower or more.

But OK, he's on the harder tyre, he starts well, he's ahead of Alonso, he's keeping up with those ahead. Then, after 7 (!!) laps, he gets pitted for supersoft tyres. He then posts very good lap times but then the SC comes out and all those he would have jumped are taking an almost free pit stop - Vandoorne losing out hugely and dropping back down the order. From there on it was pretty much game over.

Now... Why on earth did McLaren pit him after just 7 laps, when doing well on the harder tyre and in an SC-prone race? Why could they not let him out until an SC and give him a free pit stop as well? The only thing I can see it gained them, and I don't want to go the conspiracy route but I really don't see anything else it could remotely be, is get him out of Alonso's way. But if that was the goal, why not just give him the order to let him by and get on with it?
No, they are going the route of extra pit stop in an SC-prone race. Bonkers.

A decent strategy would have meant two cars in the points for McLaren, and some relief for Vandoorne. But they left him hanging and now everybody can go on about how disappointing Vandoorne has been.

A damn shame, this.


I was wondering why he was so far behind the Saubers ... Definitely should have been 9th and 10th for them.

Author:  Lotus49 [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.

Dodgy stop though, when I saw it I thought immediately they were doing it to get Alonso by and couldn't understand why they didn't just either let them race, Alonso nearly got him the lap before anyway but there was another car in the mix, or even just switch them on track if you think Alo is quicker.

I haven't read the race report yet so if there was an issue like Dan had with his brake duct or slow puncture fair enough but it looks dodgy for sure.

Author:  mds [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Lotus49 wrote:
No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.


Alonso was posting considerably higher top speeds. Going by that I have my doubts whether the PU's were equal.

Quote:
Dodgy stop though, when I saw it I thought immediately they were doing it to get Alonso by and couldn't understand why they didn't just either let them race, Alonso nearly got him the lap before anyway but there was another car in the mix, or even just switch them on track if you think Alo is quicker.

I haven't read the race report yet so if there was an issue like Dan had with his brake duct or slow puncture fair enough but it looks dodgy for sure.


Agree, just tell them to switch, no harm done.

Vandoorne was pretty much glued to the back of Ericsson when he pitted.
Maybe they had an undercut in mind but that early? And on a track where SC's are so highly likely?

Author:  Lotus49 [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Ok I've read the race report and this is Stoff's take on it...

“Then the team did a great job to cover Romain Grosjean, I switched to the Option tyre and came out ahead of him. I had good pace on that tyre, but then the red flag came out and that took away my advantage as it meant everybody on the Prime could now get effectively a free tyre-change".

Also read in the McLaren thread on another forum that he had a bad flatspot so I don't know if that influenced the team to cover RoGro.

Doesn't look like it was to get Alonso ahead though, I think Stoff fancied his chances on the option by the sound of it so it's a shame for him everyone got the free change. He can't seem to catch a break at the minute.

Author:  Lotus49 [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mds wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.


Alonso was posting considerably higher top speeds. Going by that I have my doubts whether the PU's were equal.


Better Tow maybe?. Honestly the ICE update was saved for Austria after Alonso's gearbox let go in FP and they wanted to check for damage from over revs and the only other update they were both running (new MGU-H).

Both ran the new low d/f front and rear wings as well.

Author:  mds [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Lotus49 wrote:
mds wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.


Alonso was posting considerably higher top speeds. Going by that I have my doubts whether the PU's were equal.


Better Tow maybe?. Honestly the ICE update was saved for Austria after Alonso's gearbox let go in FP and they wanted to check for damage from over revs and the only other update they were both running (new MGU-H).

Both ran the new low d/f front and rear wings as well.


Guess it's possible. Anyhow, he was doing well and his strategy was puzzling, like doing an extra stop or at least a very very early stop in Monaco isn't going to make much sense either...

Author:  Lotus49 [ Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mds wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mds wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
No idea why they pitted him so early but Alonso didn't race with the upgraded unit so equipment wise they were equal.


Alonso was posting considerably higher top speeds. Going by that I have my doubts whether the PU's were equal.


Better Tow maybe?. Honestly the ICE update was saved for Austria after Alonso's gearbox let go in FP and they wanted to check for damage from over revs and the only other update they were both running (new MGU-H).

Both ran the new low d/f front and rear wings as well.


Guess it's possible. Anyhow, he was doing well and his strategy was puzzling, like doing an extra stop or at least a very very early stop in Monaco isn't going to make much sense either...


Agree, I don't really know why they thought RoGro was such an important factor, he'd struggled badly all weekend. And if he was such an important factor then why wasn't Alonso all over that strategy.

I thought it was his best race so far and at least would have been in with a shot at beating Alonso without the SC. Hopefully he gets some good fortune soon.

Hasegawa has said both drivers get the new spec unit in Austria and Stoff doesn't need to take a penalty to get it either which is good.

Author:  mds [ Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Again a frustrating result for Vandoorne. He did very well all weekend, he seemed genuinely faster than Alonso today, was definitely going to get points only for his team to throw it away with a pit stop that took far too long. Passing Massa was just not going to happen.

But definitely a positive mood to leave Silverstone.

Author:  Lotus49 [ Sun Jul 16, 2017 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mds wrote:
Again a frustrating result for Vandoorne. He did very well all weekend, he seemed genuinely faster than Alonso today, was definitely going to get points only for his team to throw it away with a pit stop that took far too long. Passing Massa was just not going to happen.

But definitely a positive mood to leave Silverstone.


I'm convinced he's turned a corner since Canada. Baku and Austria had similar pace, not far away anyway, and today he was quicker.

First weekend "win" for me in this battle. Maybe just dealing with those Honda issues at the start as well as getting to grips with the new cars was just a bit much for him but that's 3 decent weekends on the bounce and the first clear win so you've got to say it's looking much more like it and more like what we were expecting with his record.

Fair play to him to keep plugging away and it's starting to pay off. :thumbup:

Author:  mcdo [ Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

mds wrote:
Again a frustrating result for Vandoorne. He did very well all weekend, he seemed genuinely faster than Alonso today, was definitely going to get points only for his team to throw it away with a pit stop that took far too long. Passing Massa was just not going to happen.

But definitely a positive mood to leave Silverstone.

He drove very well. Such as shame not to get the reward

Author:  justbeingmiko [ Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

Stoffel is an odd one. All the ingredients are there, but they just aren't translating into on track performance. AI do find myself wondering at the lack of testing for new drivers. There will be a few a generation that can jump into a car and be quick, but others need time to find their zone.

In the Schumacher early years it was not unusual to see Schumi throwing the car off the circuit every Friday as he found the limits of the car and the track. These days, such a luxury would be frowned upon by the pundits and fans, make headlines and probably be disallowed by the team as their cars are abused So the new drivers get no experience in the real car, and have to perform immediately.

The cars of the last few years are not easy to drive or manage and experience seems to account for a lot of ultimate pace. There is the simulator, but all drivers say it doesn't prep you for track, it just gives you system awareness.

Maybe Stoffel is a good case for testing time to be given to drivers with less than 2 years experience...

Author:  Lotus49 [ Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

justbeingmiko wrote:
Stoffel is an odd one. All the ingredients are there, but they just aren't translating into on track performance. AI do find myself wondering at the lack of testing for new drivers. There will be a few a generation that can jump into a car and be quick, but others need time to find their zone.

In the Schumacher early years it was not unusual to see Schumi throwing the car off the circuit every Friday as he found the limits of the car and the track. These days, such a luxury would be frowned upon by the pundits and fans, make headlines and probably be disallowed by the team as their cars are abused So the new drivers get no experience in the real car, and have to perform immediately.

The cars of the last few years are not easy to drive or manage and experience seems to account for a lot of ultimate pace. There is the simulator, but all drivers say it doesn't prep you for track, it just gives you system awareness.

Maybe Stoffel is a good case for testing time to be given to drivers with less than 2 years experience...


Good points but I think he hit the ground running under the last regs in Bahrain last year. That was a weak version of a weak PU at that stage and he scored a point on a power track. I think people forget that a lot.

This years cars are a lot less forgiving, are causing big gaps between even experienced team mates, look at some of the gaps Lewis has to Bottas, far bigger than Stoff's to Alonso.

Then there's the Honda pu earlier which was just a vibrating mess that needed some creativity from the cockpit to drive around which just happens to be an Alonso strength and I think it was just a baptism of fire this year in the worst possible circumstances with the worst possible driver to be compared too. I think he'd have gotten up to speed much quicker in any other car.

But I'm all for giving the rookies more testing though, it would be cool if we saw more young drivers tests and got to see some of the young driver academy drivers like Norris get a go in the Macca for example. Even better if it's part of the race weekend and we can compare them to the seat holders.

Author:  Fiki [ Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Stoffel Vandoorne

His moment of brain fade in Spain, and the misfortune of keeping the door open too wide at Monaco, removed earlier chances of a good showing. But he's better than he looked so far.

I wondered during the race how three slower cars got ahead, but apparently all Stoffel's good work was thrown out by a pitstop that took a bit more than 4 seconds. Such is the joy of pitstop racing...

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