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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 11:49 am 
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Glasnost wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how much is Stroll paying for the seat at Williams? Has to be alot! He'd want to be paying enough to off-set the loss of prize money as Williams drops down the constructors championship.

I heard between $30M-$35M.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Well deserved criticism for someone who has shown he has not the talent for F1 and he is there due to money.
Maldonado was the same but at least he had more speed and more skills than him.
He's the Deletraz of 21st century


I don't know why people are deciding this all already. He could turn out to be like Verstappen or maybe even better but just develops his skills later on. Unlikely, but we just don't know. It is silly to say he doesn't have the talent for F1 after just 5 races. He's only had the chance to complete 2 of them of which he has achieved. Give him more time!

How can he turn out like Verstappen when he is already not like him, that's the whole point of being Verstappen, a driver that can hit the ground running and not take years to get better, that's more in the realms of being another Palmer.


Sorry but this is a bit silly. Didn't you read what I said? Ok he's not like Verstappen at the moment, but what I said is that he could turn out to be what Verstappen is like now later on. So if he had started F1 a year or 2 later, he may have impressed instantly. This is why I think he should have another chance. I'll be honest though, I don't think Verstappen's 2015 form was that good. It was mainly his age that made people rate him so much. I agree that what he achieved for his age was mighty impressive but he also had some very poor races. Lots of his dangerous moves will have resulted in accidents if it wasn't for the other drivers around him being experienced. There were many occasions where the driver he was overtaking had to leap out the way or else Verstappen will have collided with them. People rated these overtakes, but it was largely down to how good the other drivers reactions were that made them look good. They could have gone very wrong. It was a good first season overall, very good for his age but I don't think it was that special. There is nothing is to say that Stroll won't improve over this season. During the races, he hasn't actually been responsible for a retirement yet. This may sound silly because it is never good for this to be the case but it's not like Verstappen didn't have any of these in his first year.

It is obviously better to have good skills early on like Verstappen did, but there is no evidence that Stroll won't be much better next year than he is now. Like F1 did with Palmer, I think he should be given a 2nd year unless he gets worse than he is now. This will allow him to prove himself. Palmer so far this year has shown that he is hardly any better than his form last year (which was very bad).

I still think there is far too much criticism towards Stroll.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:09 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Well deserved criticism for someone who has shown he has not the talent for F1 and he is there due to money.
Maldonado was the same but at least he had more speed and more skills than him.
He's the Deletraz of 21st century


I don't know why people are deciding this all already. He could turn out to be like Verstappen or maybe even better but just develops his skills later on. Unlikely, but we just don't know. It is silly to say he doesn't have the talent for F1 after just 5 races. He's only had the chance to complete 2 of them of which he has achieved. Give him more time!

How can he turn out like Verstappen when he is already not like him, that's the whole point of being Verstappen, a driver that can hit the ground running and not take years to get better, that's more in the realms of being another Palmer.


Sorry but this is a bit silly. Didn't you read what I said? Ok he's not like Verstappen at the moment, but what I said is that he could turn out to be what Verstappen is like now later on. So if he had started F1 a year or 2 later, he may have impressed instantly. This is why I think he should have another chance. I'll be honest though, I don't think Verstappen's 2015 form was that good. It was mainly his age that made people rate him so much. I agree that what he achieved for his age was mighty impressive but he also had some very poor races. Lots of his dangerous moves will have resulted in accidents if it wasn't for the other drivers around him being experienced. There were many occasions where the driver he was overtaking had to leap out the way or else Verstappen will have collided with them. People rated these overtakes, but it was largely down to how good the other drivers reactions were that made them look good. They could have gone very wrong. It was a good first season overall, very good for his age but I don't think it was that special. There is nothing is to say that Stroll won't improve over this season. During the races, he hasn't actually been responsible for a retirement yet. This may sound silly because it is never good for this to be the case but it's not like Verstappen didn't have any of these in his first year.

It is obviously better to have good skills early on like Verstappen did, but there is no evidence that Stroll won't be much better next year than he is now. Like F1 did with Palmer, I think he should be given a 2nd year unless he gets worse than he is now. This will allow him to prove himself. Palmer so far this year has shown that he is hardly any better than his form last year (which was very bad).

I still think there is far too much criticism towards Stroll.

My main criticism with Stroll is how he got into F1 in the first place but I have no doubt that he will improve given time.

Regarding Verstappen your argument is a bit confused, I actually believe that Stroll has conducted himself in F1 better then what Verstappen did, my main concern with Stroll was with that being out of his depth he might be reckless around other drivers but he hasn't been, I think we are going more down the line of the maturity of the drivers here which I debated on another thread were I said that Verstappen wasn't ready for F1 in 2015 and I hold that to Stroll as well.

Going back to what you said that Stroll could turn out to be as good as what Verstappen is now I think we have to be a bit realistic here, Verstappen is going to become World Champion because he has always been excellent speed wise, Stroll seems more of a driver that has to be coached throughout his career, he is just not a natural driver like Verstappen, manufactured drivers ultimately will never be as good as a true talent.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:27 pm 
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Stroll is actually lucky in the sense Massa has been tragically unlucky in the last 2 outings . A puncture from a comfortable 6th in Russia laps before the end and another puncture as a result of the chain of events that ensued after the Verstappen / Raikkonen turn 1 tussle.
He would have finished anywhere between 4th and 6th in that race and as a result would be around 30 - 35 points vs Stroll's ZERO!

Although i believe Massa is underated, it doesn't look great for him thus far in terms of genuine lap time pace, but I'm more in the camp of giving someone time to prove themselves. It can take just one drive or result to kickstart someones confidence and it's only been 5 races. He's won some junior categories so he must have the skill to step it up.
I'd personally re asess at the Summer break, focus the assessment on his improvement against himself. If it doesn't show rapid improvement or put in one solid weekend between now and then i'd be getting a bit concerned..

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Well deserved criticism for someone who has shown he has not the talent for F1 and he is there due to money.
Maldonado was the same but at least he had more speed and more skills than him.
He's the Deletraz of 21st century


I don't know why people are deciding this all already. He could turn out to be like Verstappen or maybe even better but just develops his skills later on. Unlikely, but we just don't know. It is silly to say he doesn't have the talent for F1 after just 5 races. He's only had the chance to complete 2 of them of which he has achieved. Give him more time!

How can he turn out like Verstappen when he is already not like him, that's the whole point of being Verstappen, a driver that can hit the ground running and not take years to get better, that's more in the realms of being another Palmer.


Sorry but this is a bit silly. Didn't you read what I said? Ok he's not like Verstappen at the moment, but what I said is that he could turn out to be what Verstappen is like now later on. So if he had started F1 a year or 2 later, he may have impressed instantly. This is why I think he should have another chance. I'll be honest though, I don't think Verstappen's 2015 form was that good. It was mainly his age that made people rate him so much. I agree that what he achieved for his age was mighty impressive but he also had some very poor races. Lots of his dangerous moves will have resulted in accidents if it wasn't for the other drivers around him being experienced. There were many occasions where the driver he was overtaking had to leap out the way or else Verstappen will have collided with them. People rated these overtakes, but it was largely down to how good the other drivers reactions were that made them look good. They could have gone very wrong. It was a good first season overall, very good for his age but I don't think it was that special. There is nothing is to say that Stroll won't improve over this season. During the races, he hasn't actually been responsible for a retirement yet. This may sound silly because it is never good for this to be the case but it's not like Verstappen didn't have any of these in his first year.

It is obviously better to have good skills early on like Verstappen did, but there is no evidence that Stroll won't be much better next year than he is now. Like F1 did with Palmer, I think he should be given a 2nd year unless he gets worse than he is now. This will allow him to prove himself. Palmer so far this year has shown that he is hardly any better than his form last year (which was very bad).

I still think there is far too much criticism towards Stroll.

My main criticism with Stroll is how he got into F1 in the first place but I have no doubt that he will improve given time.

Regarding Verstappen your argument is a bit confused, I actually believe that Stroll has conducted himself in F1 better then what Verstappen did, my main concern with Stroll was with that being out of his depth he might be reckless around other drivers but he hasn't been, I think we are going more down the line of the maturity of the drivers here which I debated on another thread were I said that Verstappen wasn't ready for F1 in 2015 and I hold that to Stroll as well.

Going back to what you said that Stroll could turn out to be as good as what Verstappen is now I think we have to be a bit realistic here, Verstappen is going to become World Champion because he has always been excellent speed wise, Stroll seems more of a driver that has to be coached throughout his career, he is just not a natural driver like Verstappen, manufactured drivers ultimately will never be as good as a true talent.


Right, I misunderstood that then. I did think that I'll have been much more impressed with Verstappen if he had started in 2016. As as I said, I don't think his 2015 performance was that good. It probably will have been better if both these drivers started F1 a year later. Maybe 2019 for Stroll so he gets more experience elsewhere. I still think it is possible that Stroll could improve like Verstappen did over 2015 and turn out to surprise us next year. It may be very unlikely that he will be on Verstappen's level but we just don't know until we wait and see. From seeing Verstappen's form in 2015, I really didn't expect him to be where he is now.

It does just seem that drivers starting F1 too early often makes lots of us decide what they will be like in the future. It could well have been the case that if Hamilton started F1 at Verstappen's age, he may have had a terrible year and people would never ever have believed at the time what he would be capable of later on.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Fri May 26, 2017 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how much is Stroll paying for the seat at Williams? Has to be alot! He'd want to be paying enough to off-set the loss of prize money as Williams drops down the constructors championship.

I heard between $30M-$35M.


Ah! about what he has cost them in body parts so far then :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:54 pm 
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DirtyMike wrote:
Stroll is actually lucky in the sense Massa has been tragically unlucky in the last 2 outings . A puncture from a comfortable 6th in Russia laps before the end and another puncture as a result of the chain of events that ensued after the Verstappen / Raikkonen turn 1 tussle.
He would have finished anywhere between 4th and 6th in that race and as a result would be around 30 - 35 points vs Stroll's ZERO!

Although i believe Massa is underated, it doesn't look great for him thus far in terms of genuine lap time pace, but I'm more in the camp of giving someone time to prove themselves. It can take just one drive or result to kickstart someones confidence and it's only been 5 races. He's won some junior categories so he must have the skill to step it up.
I'd personally re asess at the Summer break, focus the assessment on his improvement against himself. If it doesn't show rapid improvement or put in one solid weekend between now and then i'd be getting a bit concerned..


I certainly agree Massa is under rated too. I'm actually starting to think that maybe Massa's form towards the end of last year wasn't that bad. it could have just been that Bottas was still improving. And considering that he's been close to Hamilton this season, this really makes me think Massa is underrated. Bottas has since managed to beat Hamilton twice in qualifying and truly dominate him in one race weekend more so than Hamilton has beaten him in any others this year. Massa's form in the very last race last year looked very impressive IMO. Force India looked to be better than the Williams towards the end of that season and Massa managed to catch right up with them towards the end of the race. If the race was 5 laps longer, he probably will have got passed at leased one of them. Then even at the start of this season, he's had a very decent start to it. He was strong in Australia, finishing 6th. He was only behind Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari which was to be expected really. Then the same in Bahrain. 6th again. In Russia as you say DirtyMike, he did have a slow puncture but yet managed to hang on to a decent points finish in 9th. Then in Spain, he had to avoid smacking into Raikkonen and Verstappen and unfortunately ended up hitting Alonso but he was hardly to blame for this. He did suffer because of this though. He then later had got smacked into by Vandoorne. I don't think this caused him too much trouble but it was down to poor luck that got him where he was. He will almost certainly have been 6th at the lowest if not for this. Possibly even 5th. His team seemed to be saying even 4th would have been possible but I don't think so. Basically, all his races this year will have been in the top 6 other than China which admittedly wasn't very good. But I certainly think he is underrated. And maybe people's views on Massa make Stroll appear even worse than he is.

His qualifying pace may not be that good but at least he has got through to Q3 every time. At leased I think he has.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 1:55 pm 
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moby wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how much is Stroll paying for the seat at Williams? Has to be alot! He'd want to be paying enough to off-set the loss of prize money as Williams drops down the constructors championship.

I heard between $30M-$35M.


Ah! about what he has cost them in body parts so far then :twisted:


It was too early for Williams to sign Stroll, unless they believed he's upto Verstappen's level. This is tier 1.

Tier 2 is Ocon who's doing a splendid job of his own. Stroll is nowhere close to this tier even.

His mistakes & lack of speed purely indicate that Williams ONLY signed Stroll for the $30 million funding. It's a good amount but this has put their WC hopes in loads of jeopardy.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:24 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.


All the drivers do that though. Look at Vettel in the last race. If Hamilton hadn't jumped out the way he would have driven into the side of them.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:31 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Right, I misunderstood that then. I did think that I'll have been much more impressed with Verstappen if he had started in 2016. As as I said, I don't think his 2015 performance was that good.


The things you read here sometimes...

F1 team bosses poll 2015:
1 Lewis Hamilton (229pts)
2 Sebastian Vettel (180)
3 Nico Rosberg (113)
4 Max Verstappen (77)
5 Daniil Kvyat (69)
6 Fernando Alonso (57)
7 Valtteri Bottas (52)
8 Sergio Perez (48)
9 Daniel Ricciardo (47)
10 Kimi Raikkonen (37)

FIA rookie of the year, action of the year, personality of the year. Most passes of the year, with a car that had the weakest engine by some margin. Two fourth places, a position STR hasn't been in since Vettel drove for them (and hasn't been in since).

Even not taking his age or rookie status into account that was a great season.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:17 pm 
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Yes Hamilton aside I'm struggling to think of many on the current grid who had a more impressive rookie season. Especially those that were true rookies and didn't have a lead in from the previous year like Vettel.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how much is Stroll paying for the seat at Williams? Has to be alot! He'd want to be paying enough to off-set the loss of prize money as Williams drops down the constructors championship.

I heard between $30M-$35M.


I actually read it was 80 million from multiple sources.

Heres one:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports ... 0-million/

Edit: i stand corrected. 80 mill was what he spent in total including the simulator, williams mechanics etc...


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:30 pm 
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As a Canadian I do want Stroll to do well. Unfortunately he has not covered himself in glory. I don't think he is in Maldonado's category, but right now he is in over his head, a decent racer up against the best. But in all fairness, he needs to be given a chance. If he sucks next year I will be the one leading the angry mob with pitchforks and torches.

IMO Stroll is being unfairly compared to the gold standard, drivers like Hamilton or Jacques Villeneuve who were right up at the front from their first lap.

Many, many races get off to a slow start and eventually develop into top tier drivers.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 8:25 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
As a Canadian I do want Stroll to do well. Unfortunately he has not covered himself in glory. I don't think he is in Maldonado's category, but right now he is in over his head, a decent racer up against the best. But in all fairness, he needs to be given a chance. If he sucks next year I will be the one leading the angry mob with pitchforks and torches.

IMO Stroll is being unfairly compared to the gold standard, drivers like Hamilton or Jacques Villeneuve who were right up at the front from their first lap.

Many, many races get off to a slow start and eventually develop into top tier drivers.

Pretty much sums up the way I felt about Scott Speed.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 9:58 pm 
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mds wrote:
FIA rookie of the year, action of the year, personality of the year. Most passes of the year, with a car that had the weakest engine by some margin. Two fourth places, a position STR hasn't been in since Vettel drove for them (and hasn't been in since).

Even not taking his age or rookie status into account that was a great season.

I'm sorry, but giving Verstappen personality of the year in 2015 was a total farce. There was not then, and is not now, anything spectacular about his personality. Vettel earned that award a dozen times over by his epic trolling of the Mercedes drivers on the podium and in the press conferences. I can't remember a single 'personality' moment Verstappen had in 2015, or in 2016, or ever. He's a great driver, but personality of the year? You've got to be kidding me!

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:21 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:

How can he turn out like Verstappen when he is already not like him, that's the whole point of being Verstappen, a driver that can hit the ground running and not take years to get better, that's more in the realms of being another Palmer.


Sorry but this is a bit silly. Didn't you read what I said? Ok he's not like Verstappen at the moment, but what I said is that he could turn out to be what Verstappen is like now later on. So if he had started F1 a year or 2 later, he may have impressed instantly. This is why I think he should have another chance. I'll be honest though, I don't think Verstappen's 2015 form was that good. It was mainly his age that made people rate him so much. I agree that what he achieved for his age was mighty impressive but he also had some very poor races. Lots of his dangerous moves will have resulted in accidents if it wasn't for the other drivers around him being experienced. There were many occasions where the driver he was overtaking had to leap out the way or else Verstappen will have collided with them. People rated these overtakes, but it was largely down to how good the other drivers reactions were that made them look good. They could have gone very wrong. It was a good first season overall, very good for his age but I don't think it was that special. There is nothing is to say that Stroll won't improve over this season. During the races, he hasn't actually been responsible for a retirement yet. This may sound silly because it is never good for this to be the case but it's not like Verstappen didn't have any of these in his first year.

It is obviously better to have good skills early on like Verstappen did, but there is no evidence that Stroll won't be much better next year than he is now. Like F1 did with Palmer, I think he should be given a 2nd year unless he gets worse than he is now. This will allow him to prove himself. Palmer so far this year has shown that he is hardly any better than his form last year (which was very bad).

I still think there is far too much criticism towards Stroll.

My main criticism with Stroll is how he got into F1 in the first place but I have no doubt that he will improve given time.

Regarding Verstappen your argument is a bit confused, I actually believe that Stroll has conducted himself in F1 better then what Verstappen did, my main concern with Stroll was with that being out of his depth he might be reckless around other drivers but he hasn't been, I think we are going more down the line of the maturity of the drivers here which I debated on another thread were I said that Verstappen wasn't ready for F1 in 2015 and I hold that to Stroll as well.

Going back to what you said that Stroll could turn out to be as good as what Verstappen is now I think we have to be a bit realistic here, Verstappen is going to become World Champion because he has always been excellent speed wise, Stroll seems more of a driver that has to be coached throughout his career, he is just not a natural driver like Verstappen, manufactured drivers ultimately will never be as good as a true talent.


Right, I misunderstood that then. I did think that I'll have been much more impressed with Verstappen if he had started in 2016. As as I said, I don't think his 2015 performance was that good. It probably will have been better if both these drivers started F1 a year later. Maybe 2019 for Stroll so he gets more experience elsewhere. I still think it is possible that Stroll could improve like Verstappen did over 2015 and turn out to surprise us next year. It may be very unlikely that he will be on Verstappen's level but we just don't know until we wait and see. From seeing Verstappen's form in 2015, I really didn't expect him to be where he is now.

It does just seem that drivers starting F1 too early often makes lots of us decide what they will be like in the future. It could well have been the case that if Hamilton started F1 at Verstappen's age, he may have had a terrible year and people would never ever have believed at the time what he would be capable of later on.

Mickey has responded to this post and I go with what he said, Verstappen's actual driving performance as a rookie was in fact quite impressive.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Last edited by pokerman on Sat May 27, 2017 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:24 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.

It was actually Sainz that replaced JEV, Verstappen was signed to replace Kvyat.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:26 am 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Glasnost wrote:
Just out of curiosity, how much is Stroll paying for the seat at Williams? Has to be alot! He'd want to be paying enough to off-set the loss of prize money as Williams drops down the constructors championship.

I heard between $30M-$35M.


I actually read it was 80 million from multiple sources.

Heres one:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports ... 0-million/

Edit: i stand corrected. 80 mill was what he spent in total including the simulator, williams mechanics etc...

Yeah I believe the 80M covers 2016 and 2017.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.

It was actually Sainz that replaced JEV, Verstappen was signed to replace Kvyat.


Again, I'm not quite sure why you are saying this. Look at the bit I've put in bold. I didn't say anything about who was replacing who. But I still do think that if JEV had stayed there, he could have got more points than either Verstappen or Sainz. Between him and Sainz or him and Verstappen, I'm certain the team as a whole will have done better. Although it worked out quite well in the end, it was a big risk for Toro Rosso to bring in 2 totally new drivers. I think they should have kept JEV for one more year at leased. He proved to be better than Kvyat so I sometimes wonder why it wasn't him that got the chance at Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Sorry but this is a bit silly. Didn't you read what I said? Ok he's not like Verstappen at the moment, but what I said is that he could turn out to be what Verstappen is like now later on. So if he had started F1 a year or 2 later, he may have impressed instantly. This is why I think he should have another chance. I'll be honest though, I don't think Verstappen's 2015 form was that good. It was mainly his age that made people rate him so much. I agree that what he achieved for his age was mighty impressive but he also had some very poor races. Lots of his dangerous moves will have resulted in accidents if it wasn't for the other drivers around him being experienced. There were many occasions where the driver he was overtaking had to leap out the way or else Verstappen will have collided with them. People rated these overtakes, but it was largely down to how good the other drivers reactions were that made them look good. They could have gone very wrong. It was a good first season overall, very good for his age but I don't think it was that special. There is nothing is to say that Stroll won't improve over this season. During the races, he hasn't actually been responsible for a retirement yet. This may sound silly because it is never good for this to be the case but it's not like Verstappen didn't have any of these in his first year.

It is obviously better to have good skills early on like Verstappen did, but there is no evidence that Stroll won't be much better next year than he is now. Like F1 did with Palmer, I think he should be given a 2nd year unless he gets worse than he is now. This will allow him to prove himself. Palmer so far this year has shown that he is hardly any better than his form last year (which was very bad).

I still think there is far too much criticism towards Stroll.

My main criticism with Stroll is how he got into F1 in the first place but I have no doubt that he will improve given time.

Regarding Verstappen your argument is a bit confused, I actually believe that Stroll has conducted himself in F1 better then what Verstappen did, my main concern with Stroll was with that being out of his depth he might be reckless around other drivers but he hasn't been, I think we are going more down the line of the maturity of the drivers here which I debated on another thread were I said that Verstappen wasn't ready for F1 in 2015 and I hold that to Stroll as well.

Going back to what you said that Stroll could turn out to be as good as what Verstappen is now I think we have to be a bit realistic here, Verstappen is going to become World Champion because he has always been excellent speed wise, Stroll seems more of a driver that has to be coached throughout his career, he is just not a natural driver like Verstappen, manufactured drivers ultimately will never be as good as a true talent.


Right, I misunderstood that then. I did think that I'll have been much more impressed with Verstappen if he had started in 2016. As as I said, I don't think his 2015 performance was that good. It probably will have been better if both these drivers started F1 a year later. Maybe 2019 for Stroll so he gets more experience elsewhere. I still think it is possible that Stroll could improve like Verstappen did over 2015 and turn out to surprise us next year. It may be very unlikely that he will be on Verstappen's level but we just don't know until we wait and see. From seeing Verstappen's form in 2015, I really didn't expect him to be where he is now.

It does just seem that drivers starting F1 too early often makes lots of us decide what they will be like in the future. It could well have been the case that if Hamilton started F1 at Verstappen's age, he may have had a terrible year and people would never ever have believed at the time what he would be capable of later on.

Mickey has responded to this post and I go with what he said, Verstappen's actual driving performance as a rookie was in fact quite impressive.


I have said enough times that what Verstappen did for his age and the fact he was a rookie was very impressive. I can't deny that. But IMO, I still don't think his season was outstanding if we ignore he was a very young new driver. There were still some mistakes that year that Verstappen made that some other drivers have never made in their entire F1 career. Such as Bottas, Although he may not be outstanding a lot of the time, I don't think he has ever been responsible for his own or anyone else’s retirement. Even in practice or qualifying if I am correct. Very few others have achieved this. To me, it would have made Verstappen's first season far more impressive if he hadn't made several big mistakes.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:51 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.

It was actually Sainz that replaced JEV, Verstappen was signed to replace Kvyat.


Again, I'm not quite sure why you are saying this. Look at the bit I've put in bold. I didn't say anything about who was replacing who. But I still do think that if JEV had stayed there, he could have got more points than either Verstappen or Sainz. Between him and Sainz or him and Verstappen, I'm certain the team as a whole will have done better. Although it worked out quite well in the end, it was a big risk for Toro Rosso to bring in 2 totally new drivers. I think they should have kept JEV for one more year at leased. He proved to be better than Kvyat so I sometimes wonder why it wasn't him that got the chance at Red Bull.


I don't think he did prove to be better than Kvyat. Kvyat was just as good as Vergne in 2014 even though it was his rookie season. Seeing how Kvyat has gone since It would suggest Vergne wasn't going to be good enough to outscore Verstappen.

It's not really a risk for STR to hire two rookies. They exist to run rookies, not to win the WCC. If you've decided a driver isn't going to be good enough to drive for Red Bull there is no point in keeping him.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 9:43 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.

It was actually Sainz that replaced JEV, Verstappen was signed to replace Kvyat.


Again, I'm not quite sure why you are saying this. Look at the bit I've put in bold. I didn't say anything about who was replacing who. But I still do think that if JEV had stayed there, he could have got more points than either Verstappen or Sainz. Between him and Sainz or him and Verstappen, I'm certain the team as a whole will have done better. Although it worked out quite well in the end, it was a big risk for Toro Rosso to bring in 2 totally new drivers. I think they should have kept JEV for one more year at leased. He proved to be better than Kvyat so I sometimes wonder why it wasn't him that got the chance at Red Bull.

Big JEV fan here. I don't believe he would have scored more points than Verstappen in 2015

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:09 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.

It was actually Sainz that replaced JEV, Verstappen was signed to replace Kvyat.


Again, I'm not quite sure why you are saying this. Look at the bit I've put in bold. I didn't say anything about who was replacing who. But I still do think that if JEV had stayed there, he could have got more points than either Verstappen or Sainz. Between him and Sainz or him and Verstappen, I'm certain the team as a whole will have done better. Although it worked out quite well in the end, it was a big risk for Toro Rosso to bring in 2 totally new drivers. I think they should have kept JEV for one more year at leased. He proved to be better than Kvyat so I sometimes wonder why it wasn't him that got the chance at Red Bull.

Your post never mentioned Sainz, regarding JEV he was a terrible qualifier that's quite a weakness.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 10:11 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Sorry but this is a bit silly. Didn't you read what I said? Ok he's not like Verstappen at the moment, but what I said is that he could turn out to be what Verstappen is like now later on. So if he had started F1 a year or 2 later, he may have impressed instantly. This is why I think he should have another chance. I'll be honest though, I don't think Verstappen's 2015 form was that good. It was mainly his age that made people rate him so much. I agree that what he achieved for his age was mighty impressive but he also had some very poor races. Lots of his dangerous moves will have resulted in accidents if it wasn't for the other drivers around him being experienced. There were many occasions where the driver he was overtaking had to leap out the way or else Verstappen will have collided with them. People rated these overtakes, but it was largely down to how good the other drivers reactions were that made them look good. They could have gone very wrong. It was a good first season overall, very good for his age but I don't think it was that special. There is nothing is to say that Stroll won't improve over this season. During the races, he hasn't actually been responsible for a retirement yet. This may sound silly because it is never good for this to be the case but it's not like Verstappen didn't have any of these in his first year.

It is obviously better to have good skills early on like Verstappen did, but there is no evidence that Stroll won't be much better next year than he is now. Like F1 did with Palmer, I think he should be given a 2nd year unless he gets worse than he is now. This will allow him to prove himself. Palmer so far this year has shown that he is hardly any better than his form last year (which was very bad).

I still think there is far too much criticism towards Stroll.

My main criticism with Stroll is how he got into F1 in the first place but I have no doubt that he will improve given time.

Regarding Verstappen your argument is a bit confused, I actually believe that Stroll has conducted himself in F1 better then what Verstappen did, my main concern with Stroll was with that being out of his depth he might be reckless around other drivers but he hasn't been, I think we are going more down the line of the maturity of the drivers here which I debated on another thread were I said that Verstappen wasn't ready for F1 in 2015 and I hold that to Stroll as well.

Going back to what you said that Stroll could turn out to be as good as what Verstappen is now I think we have to be a bit realistic here, Verstappen is going to become World Champion because he has always been excellent speed wise, Stroll seems more of a driver that has to be coached throughout his career, he is just not a natural driver like Verstappen, manufactured drivers ultimately will never be as good as a true talent.


Right, I misunderstood that then. I did think that I'll have been much more impressed with Verstappen if he had started in 2016. As as I said, I don't think his 2015 performance was that good. It probably will have been better if both these drivers started F1 a year later. Maybe 2019 for Stroll so he gets more experience elsewhere. I still think it is possible that Stroll could improve like Verstappen did over 2015 and turn out to surprise us next year. It may be very unlikely that he will be on Verstappen's level but we just don't know until we wait and see. From seeing Verstappen's form in 2015, I really didn't expect him to be where he is now.

It does just seem that drivers starting F1 too early often makes lots of us decide what they will be like in the future. It could well have been the case that if Hamilton started F1 at Verstappen's age, he may have had a terrible year and people would never ever have believed at the time what he would be capable of later on.

Mickey has responded to this post and I go with what he said, Verstappen's actual driving performance as a rookie was in fact quite impressive.


I have said enough times that what Verstappen did for his age and the fact he was a rookie was very impressive. I can't deny that. But IMO, I still don't think his season was outstanding if we ignore he was a very young new driver. There were still some mistakes that year that Verstappen made that some other drivers have never made in their entire F1 career. Such as Bottas, Although he may not be outstanding a lot of the time, I don't think he has ever been responsible for his own or anyone else’s retirement. Even in practice or qualifying if I am correct. Very few others have achieved this. To me, it would have made Verstappen's first season far more impressive if he hadn't made several big mistakes.

Given his level of experience mistakes were inevitable, given his level of experience he was very impressive.

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2013: 5th Place
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 12th

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen's 2015 was very good considering he was a rookie. Even better when considering he was 17 with very little car racing experience. Honestly if a rookie seasons like Verstappen's doesn't impress you then I really think you are expecting too much. For a rookie to be a consistent point scorer in a midfield car is good going. He definitely improved as the season went on. two 4th places and only missing out on the points twice in the second half of the season.


Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.

It was actually Sainz that replaced JEV, Verstappen was signed to replace Kvyat.


Again, I'm not quite sure why you are saying this. Look at the bit I've put in bold. I didn't say anything about who was replacing who. But I still do think that if JEV had stayed there, he could have got more points than either Verstappen or Sainz. Between him and Sainz or him and Verstappen, I'm certain the team as a whole will have done better. Although it worked out quite well in the end, it was a big risk for Toro Rosso to bring in 2 totally new drivers. I think they should have kept JEV for one more year at leased. He proved to be better than Kvyat so I sometimes wonder why it wasn't him that got the chance at Red Bull.

Your post never mentioned Sainz, regarding JEV he was a terrible qualifier that's quite a weakness.


I'm not sure if that was fundamental to be honest. In FE Vergne is a monster qualifier!


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 1:20 pm 
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At what point does he start to cost the team money due to repairs?


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:14 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
At what point does he start to cost the team money due to repairs?


Jeez. Can we nip this misconception in the bud now please. Stroll is slow but he hasn't been a regular crasher. Honestly, I can't believe how much stick he's getting for crashing once in practice at Monaco in his rookie year.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Why did he make only 1 run in Q1 ? what was wrong with his car?


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:58 pm 
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They were speculating about a hydraulic problem on NBC

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
At what point does he start to cost the team money due to repairs?


Jeez. Can we nip this misconception in the bud now please. Stroll is slow but he hasn't been a regular crasher. Honestly, I can't believe how much stick he's getting for crashing once in practice at Monaco in his rookie year.


you answered it yourself. cos hes slow at the mo. if he was quick and crashing eg verstappen, stoner he wouldnt get too much stick. you can learn not crash. you cant learn to be quick (to a certain extent anyway). saying that he needs a season at least before we can tell if hes gonna be good enough. but he needs to be pretty close to massa by the end of the year imo.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jeez. Can we nip this misconception in the bud now please. Stroll is slow but he hasn't been a regular crasher. Honestly, I can't believe how much stick he's getting for crashing once in practice at Monaco in his rookie year.

Stroll has crashed in pre-season testing (3 times!) and at least once in every race weekend except Russia and Spain, and in Russia he spun the car and was lucky not to crash. Some of the crashes have hardly been his fault, but as of now he is indeed a frequent crasher.

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
At what point does he start to cost the team money due to repairs?


Jeez. Can we nip this misconception in the bud now please. Stroll is slow but he hasn't been a regular crasher. Honestly, I can't believe how much stick he's getting for crashing once in practice at Monaco in his rookie year.


you answered it yourself. cos hes slow at the mo. if he was quick and crashing eg verstappen, stoner he wouldnt get too much stick. you can learn not crash. you cant learn to be quick (to a certain extent anyway). saying that he needs a season at least before we can tell if hes gonna be good enough. but he needs to be pretty close to massa by the end of the year imo.


No, criticising him for being slow is accurate. Criticising him for being crash happy is wrong. Because he isn't. You really shouldn't criticise a rookie for one crash at Monaco over 4 sessions anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Yes, it did impress me, but only because of what he achived because of his age and the fact he was a rookie. I still think even later in the season, he had too many moments that were way too close to accidents. They worked out ok due to the other drivers being experienced that prevented any trouble happening. Verstappen obviously trusted the drivers so I guess it worked most of the time. But there were plenty of moves that he did where the drivers had no right to allow him through but they pretty much had to or else Verstappen would have smacked into them. People seemed to be amazed by these moves but I don't see what was so impressive about them. He was lucky that they worked. But I guess that is what matters. If I ignore his age and just look at the performance, I still think JEV could have done a better job if he stayed with Toro Rosso for that year instead. But yes, Verstappen did improve and he was very good last year other than his dreadful weekend in Monaco.

It was actually Sainz that replaced JEV, Verstappen was signed to replace Kvyat.


Again, I'm not quite sure why you are saying this. Look at the bit I've put in bold. I didn't say anything about who was replacing who. But I still do think that if JEV had stayed there, he could have got more points than either Verstappen or Sainz. Between him and Sainz or him and Verstappen, I'm certain the team as a whole will have done better. Although it worked out quite well in the end, it was a big risk for Toro Rosso to bring in 2 totally new drivers. I think they should have kept JEV for one more year at leased. He proved to be better than Kvyat so I sometimes wonder why it wasn't him that got the chance at Red Bull.

Your post never mentioned Sainz, regarding JEV he was a terrible qualifier that's quite a weakness.


I'm not sure if that was fundamental to be honest. In FE Vergne is a monster qualifier!

I'm surprised to read that, in the few races I've watched Vergne hasn't done that much, I must admit I've hardly seen any races this year but my overall impression on FE are that the best drivers are Buemi and di Grassi?

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:08 pm 
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paoloandrea123 wrote:
I am fed up with all this nonsense of him not deserving a Formula One ride. Sure enough his father's wealth did fund him throughout his career so far but he has also proven himself to be a talented driver; 2014 he won the Italian F4 championship; 2015 He was Toyota Racing Series champion in New Zealand and i 2016 he won the European F3 Championship, winning over 10 races. He deserves to be where he is in F 1. Give him time.


If you did some research into the circumstances in which he "won" those championships, you'd be as critical of him as everyone else. ;)

What's happening to him is harsher than what happened to Piquet Jr, because Piquet Jr was also spoon fed throughout his career but he has some talent at least, unlike Stroll.

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 11:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
At what point does he start to cost the team money due to repairs?


Jeez. Can we nip this misconception in the bud now please. Stroll is slow but he hasn't been a regular crasher. Honestly, I can't believe how much stick he's getting for crashing once in practice at Monaco in his rookie year.


you answered it yourself. cos hes slow at the mo. if he was quick and crashing eg verstappen, stoner he wouldnt get too much stick. you can learn not crash. you cant learn to be quick (to a certain extent anyway). saying that he needs a season at least before we can tell if hes gonna be good enough. but he needs to be pretty close to massa by the end of the year imo.


No, criticising him for being slow is accurate. Criticising him for being crash happy is wrong. Because he isn't. You really shouldn't criticise a rookie for one crash at Monaco over 4 sessions anyway.


To criticise a driver pushing the extra 1% and crashing is one thing, a driver light years off the pace crashing is another thing alltogether. The one or two places he would lose if he was 'slightly more careful' would easily be offset by the saved cost of damage and improved practice/race time


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:41 am 
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Pole2Win wrote:
paoloandrea123 wrote:
I am fed up with all this nonsense of him not deserving a Formula One ride. Sure enough his father's wealth did fund him throughout his career so far but he has also proven himself to be a talented driver; 2014 he won the Italian F4 championship; 2015 He was Toyota Racing Series champion in New Zealand and i 2016 he won the European F3 Championship, winning over 10 races. He deserves to be where he is in F 1. Give him time.


If you did some research into the circumstances in which he "won" those championships, you'd be as critical of him as everyone else. ;)

What's happening to him is harsher than what happened to Piquet Jr, because Piquet Jr was also spoon fed throughout his career but he has some talent at least, unlike Stroll.


Bullshit. You don't win a racing series, ANY series, without talent. Especially not a few of them.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 11:05 am 
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mds wrote:
Pole2Win wrote:
paoloandrea123 wrote:
I am fed up with all this nonsense of him not deserving a Formula One ride. Sure enough his father's wealth did fund him throughout his career so far but he has also proven himself to be a talented driver; 2014 he won the Italian F4 championship; 2015 He was Toyota Racing Series champion in New Zealand and i 2016 he won the European F3 Championship, winning over 10 races. He deserves to be where he is in F 1. Give him time.


If you did some research into the circumstances in which he "won" those championships, you'd be as critical of him as everyone else. ;)

What's happening to him is harsher than what happened to Piquet Jr, because Piquet Jr was also spoon fed throughout his career but he has some talent at least, unlike Stroll.


Bullshit. You don't win a racing series, ANY series, without talent. Especially not a few of them.

One thing is to have some talent, and the other is to have F1 talent level.
So far he has shown he definitely does not have the 2nd one


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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2017 2:12 pm 
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There had been drivers who did well in other series but didn't fare so well in F1. Wealth or not, if Stroll doesn't perform, then he deserves that criticism. The past is irrelevant.


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