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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You are sure that the Hulk and Grosjean have unfinished business in F1 but not so sure about Hamilton?

I only brought them up because apparently when you turn 30 then questions need to be asked.

You're getting a bit silly about this, poker. Grosjean and Hulk have yet to win a race, let alone a championship. Of course they have unfinished business in F1, and of course it's more likely Hamilton is ready to retire.

I get that you're defending your driver, but it's just not reasonable to claim two drivers who haven't even won a GP are as likely to be satisfied with their F1 careers as he is.

Quite true but then there is Vettel, Kimi and Massa, why say does Vettel still have this burning desire that some see as perhaps lacking in Hamilton?

Kimi and Massa, really? Ignoring the fact both have already once retired, their re-retirements are constantly being talked about :lol:
Vettel is a bit more valid comparison as he'd had even more success than Lewis and is of the same generation, but my feeling is that he'll be around longer than Lewis as he's a couple years younger and has fewer endeavors outside of the sport.

Neither Kimi or Massa retired of their own doing, they were not wanted basically and that's how their careers will end with them being put out to pasture.

Meanwhile what does the man himself say about his future?

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/143064-wil ... e-hamilton

That doesn't sound like a driver about to retire anytime soon, however, STOP PRESS, Hamilton to leave Mercedes to join either Williams or Ferrari. ;)

Both could surely have continued had they wanted to, at least Kimi.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
You're getting a bit silly about this, poker. Grosjean and Hulk have yet to win a race, let alone a championship. Of course they have unfinished business in F1, and of course it's more likely Hamilton is ready to retire.

I get that you're defending your driver, but it's just not reasonable to claim two drivers who haven't even won a GP are as likely to be satisfied with their F1 careers as he is.

Quite true but then there is Vettel, Kimi and Massa, why say does Vettel still have this burning desire that some see as perhaps lacking in Hamilton?

Kimi and Massa, really? Ignoring the fact both have already once retired, their re-retirements are constantly being talked about :lol:
Vettel is a bit more valid comparison as he'd had even more success than Lewis and is of the same generation, but my feeling is that he'll be around longer than Lewis as he's a couple years younger and has fewer endeavors outside of the sport.

Neither Kimi or Massa retired of their own doing, they were not wanted basically and that's how their careers will end with them being put out to pasture.

Meanwhile what does the man himself say about his future?

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/143064-wil ... e-hamilton

That doesn't sound like a driver about to retire anytime soon, however, STOP PRESS, Hamilton to leave Mercedes to join either Williams or Ferrari. ;)

Both could surely have continued had they wanted to, at least Kimi.

Like I said neither of them retired.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:00 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Quite true but then there is Vettel, Kimi and Massa, why say does Vettel still have this burning desire that some see as perhaps lacking in Hamilton?

Kimi and Massa, really? Ignoring the fact both have already once retired, their re-retirements are constantly being talked about :lol:
Vettel is a bit more valid comparison as he'd had even more success than Lewis and is of the same generation, but my feeling is that he'll be around longer than Lewis as he's a couple years younger and has fewer endeavors outside of the sport.

Neither Kimi or Massa retired of their own doing, they were not wanted basically and that's how their careers will end with them being put out to pasture.

Meanwhile what does the man himself say about his future?

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/143064-wil ... e-hamilton

That doesn't sound like a driver about to retire anytime soon, however, STOP PRESS, Hamilton to leave Mercedes to join either Williams or Ferrari. ;)

Both could surely have continued had they wanted to, at least Kimi.

Like I said neither of them retired.

Like I said both could have continued, which effectively means retirement. I'm sure even Massa could have landed a seat in a backmarker team, but chose not to which means retiring.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Kimi and Massa, really? Ignoring the fact both have already once retired, their re-retirements are constantly being talked about :lol:
Vettel is a bit more valid comparison as he'd had even more success than Lewis and is of the same generation, but my feeling is that he'll be around longer than Lewis as he's a couple years younger and has fewer endeavors outside of the sport.

Neither Kimi or Massa retired of their own doing, they were not wanted basically and that's how their careers will end with them being put out to pasture.

Meanwhile what does the man himself say about his future?

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/143064-wil ... e-hamilton

That doesn't sound like a driver about to retire anytime soon, however, STOP PRESS, Hamilton to leave Mercedes to join either Williams or Ferrari. ;)

Both could surely have continued had they wanted to, at least Kimi.

Like I said neither of them retired.

Like I said both could have continued, which effectively means retirement. I'm sure even Massa could have landed a seat in a backmarker team, but chose not to which means retiring.

Kimi was being paid $17M basically not to race so I don't class that as retirement, if his contract had run out and he chose not to race then that would look more like retirement plus he never announced he was retiring.

Regarding Massa you need money to drive for a backmarker team, I'm not sure how practical that would have been for a driver that was in F1 basically to make a living?

It shows how readily that Massa came back into F1 that it wasn't his wish to stop in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Neither Kimi or Massa retired of their own doing, they were not wanted basically and that's how their careers will end with them being put out to pasture.

Meanwhile what does the man himself say about his future?

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/143064-wil ... e-hamilton

That doesn't sound like a driver about to retire anytime soon, however, STOP PRESS, Hamilton to leave Mercedes to join either Williams or Ferrari. ;)

Both could surely have continued had they wanted to, at least Kimi.

Like I said neither of them retired.

Like I said both could have continued, which effectively means retirement. I'm sure even Massa could have landed a seat in a backmarker team, but chose not to which means retiring.

Kimi was being paid $17M basically not to race so I don't class that as retirement, if his contract had run out and he chose not to race then that would look more like retirement plus he never announced he was retiring.

Regarding Massa you need money to drive for a backmarker team, I'm not sure how practical that would have been for a driver that was in F1 basically to make a living?

It shows how readily that Massa came back into F1 that it wasn't his wish to stop in the first place.

They still chose not to race anymore however you word it. Even if we ignore their previous retirements, how is it that you felt that their retirements weren't discussed enough relative to Hamilton's? Look up any seat prediction/preference or silly season thread from past years and you'll see a large number of posts omitting either or both.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:16 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Both could surely have continued had they wanted to, at least Kimi.

Like I said neither of them retired.

Like I said both could have continued, which effectively means retirement. I'm sure even Massa could have landed a seat in a backmarker team, but chose not to which means retiring.

Kimi was being paid $17M basically not to race so I don't class that as retirement, if his contract had run out and he chose not to race then that would look more like retirement plus he never announced he was retiring.

Regarding Massa you need money to drive for a backmarker team, I'm not sure how practical that would have been for a driver that was in F1 basically to make a living?

It shows how readily that Massa came back into F1 that it wasn't his wish to stop in the first place.

They still chose not to race anymore however you word it. Even if we ignore their previous retirements, how is it that you felt that their retirements weren't discussed enough relative to Hamilton's? Look up any seat prediction/preference or silly season thread from past years and you'll see a large number of posts omitting either or both.

They chose not to race anymore because no one would pay them, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went, then came back again when Lotus made him an offer he couldn't refuse, likewise Massa came back again when Williams needed him with a $5M salary, also to think that Massa could have driven for a backmarker team without bringing money to the team I think is a bit fanciful. This is a far cry from Hamilton walking out on a $30M a year contract.

Regarding Massa or Kimi being in discussions about retiring this was very much a case of talking about them being sacked, Massa's been out performed by his teammate the last 7 years whilst Kimi has been out performed these last 4 years by his teammates, again a far cry from Hamilton who has only been out performed for 1 year in his career, so is far from likely to be dropped by his team.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:

They chose not to race anymore because no one would pay them, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went, then came back again when Lotus made him an offer he couldn't refuse, likewise Massa came back again when Williams needed him with a $5M salary, also to think that Massa could have driven for a backmarker team without bringing money to the team I think is a bit fanciful. This is a far cry from Hamilton walking out on a $30M a year contract.

Regarding Massa or Kimi being in discussions about retiring this was very much a case of talking about them being sacked, Massa's been out performed by his teammate the last 7 years whilst Kimi has been out performed these last 4 years by his teammates, again a far cry from Hamilton who has only been out performed for 1 year in his career, so is far from likely to be dropped by his team.


Why are you being so obtuse when it comes to Kimi's situation?
It is not true that "no one would pay" him, Kimi was going to be paid, whether he drove or not, the Ferrari buy-out assured him of that. Had he accepted a position at another F1 team, he would have had to sacrifice all or part of that buyout as I recall, dependent on what they paid him. He, apparently, chose not to pursue another F1 ride at the time, that does not mean that he had no option as you seem to imply. By going to rally racing, Kimi got the Ferrari money AND whatever pay received from the rally team. It was his choice. Just because he chose an different form of racing, it does not mean that he was forced out of F1 or that no team wanted him. For some reason, it appears important to you to claim that neither Kimi, nor Massa, had any choice... why is that, and how is it related to your spirited defense/promotion of Lewis?

As for Massa, I am not sure that I agree with you that he could not have gotten another ride had he wanted to, nor with Cov's suggestion that it would likely be a back-marker team (of course, that is dependent on one's definition of back-marker) He is still a talented driver as seen this year. He would not have gotten the huge paychecks that he has in the past, but I suspect that there are some teams that would value his skills, experience, and F1 popularity, especially if they are wanting to groom a promising young driver.

I am just confused why it is so important to you to paint Kimi and Massa in the worst possible way.... unless it is to demean the accomplishments of Vettel and Alonso, suggesting that they have had it easy compared to Lewis because you feel that he always has a tough teammate because he welcomes the competition and won't stand for a lesser teammate as you try to portray Massa & Kimi. Is that it? If so... bullroar.
;)

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:

They chose not to race anymore because no one would pay them, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went, then came back again when Lotus made him an offer he couldn't refuse, likewise Massa came back again when Williams needed him with a $5M salary, also to think that Massa could have driven for a backmarker team without bringing money to the team I think is a bit fanciful. This is a far cry from Hamilton walking out on a $30M a year contract.

Regarding Massa or Kimi being in discussions about retiring this was very much a case of talking about them being sacked, Massa's been out performed by his teammate the last 7 years whilst Kimi has been out performed these last 4 years by his teammates, again a far cry from Hamilton who has only been out performed for 1 year in his career, so is far from likely to be dropped by his team.


Why are you being so obtuse when it comes to Kimi's situation?
It is not true that "no one would pay" him, Kimi was going to be paid, whether he drove or not, the Ferrari buy-out assured him of that. Had he accepted a position at another F1 team, he would have had to sacrifice all or part of that buyout as I recall, dependent on what they paid him. He, apparently, chose not to pursue another F1 ride at the time, that does not mean that he had no option as you seem to imply. By going to rally racing, Kimi got the Ferrari money AND whatever pay received from the rally team. It was his choice. Just because he chose an different form of racing, it does not mean that he was forced out of F1 or that no team wanted him. For some reason, it appears important to you to claim that neither Kimi, nor Massa, had any choice... why is that, and how is it related to your spirited defense/promotion of Lewis?

As for Massa, I am not sure that I agree with you that he could not have gotten another ride had he wanted to, nor with Cov's suggestion that it would likely be a back-marker team (of course, that is dependent on one's definition of back-marker) He is still a talented driver as seen this year. He would not have gotten the huge paychecks that he has in the past, but I suspect that there are some teams that would value his skills, experience, and F1 popularity, especially if they are wanting to groom a promising young driver.

I am just confused why it is so important to you to paint Kimi and Massa in the worst possible way.... unless it is to demean the accomplishments of Vettel and Alonso, suggesting that they have had it easy compared to Lewis because you feel that he always has a tough teammate because he welcomes the competition and won't stand for a lesser teammate as you try to portray Massa & Kimi. Is that it? If so... bullroar.
;)

Wow you read a lot into what I say to diagnose my inner feelings.

Regarding Kimi nobody would pay him what he wanted so he chose not to drive in F1, his buy out was $17M to be reduced to $12M if he drove for another team the following year, McLaren offered Kimi a seat but aware of Kimi's situation only offered him $5M making him back up to $17M, obviously under normal conditions McLaren would have paid Kimi more than $5M. Kimi saw McLaren as taking advantage of his situation and viewed it as him basically driving for free so turned them down.

Comparisons between Kimi and Massa with Hamilton is only with the retirement debate we have been having and why you are dragging the likes of Vettel and Alonso in respect to Hamilton into it I don't know?

Clearly Hamilton's situation is completely different from both Kimi and Massa, it's been suggested that Hamilton would walk out on a $30M a year contract of his own free will, whereas both Kimi and Massa were dropped from their respective teams before leaving F1 albeit on a temporary basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:

They chose not to race anymore because no one would pay them, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went, then came back again when Lotus made him an offer he couldn't refuse, likewise Massa came back again when Williams needed him with a $5M salary, also to think that Massa could have driven for a backmarker team without bringing money to the team I think is a bit fanciful. This is a far cry from Hamilton walking out on a $30M a year contract.

Regarding Massa or Kimi being in discussions about retiring this was very much a case of talking about them being sacked, Massa's been out performed by his teammate the last 7 years whilst Kimi has been out performed these last 4 years by his teammates, again a far cry from Hamilton who has only been out performed for 1 year in his career, so is far from likely to be dropped by his team.


Why are you being so obtuse when it comes to Kimi's situation?
It is not true that "no one would pay" him, Kimi was going to be paid, whether he drove or not, the Ferrari buy-out assured him of that. Had he accepted a position at another F1 team, he would have had to sacrifice all or part of that buyout as I recall, dependent on what they paid him. He, apparently, chose not to pursue another F1 ride at the time, that does not mean that he had no option as you seem to imply. By going to rally racing, Kimi got the Ferrari money AND whatever pay received from the rally team. It was his choice. Just because he chose an different form of racing, it does not mean that he was forced out of F1 or that no team wanted him. For some reason, it appears important to you to claim that neither Kimi, nor Massa, had any choice... why is that, and how is it related to your spirited defense/promotion of Lewis?

As for Massa, I am not sure that I agree with you that he could not have gotten another ride had he wanted to, nor with Cov's suggestion that it would likely be a back-marker team (of course, that is dependent on one's definition of back-marker) He is still a talented driver as seen this year. He would not have gotten the huge paychecks that he has in the past, but I suspect that there are some teams that would value his skills, experience, and F1 popularity, especially if they are wanting to groom a promising young driver.

I am just confused why it is so important to you to paint Kimi and Massa in the worst possible way.... unless it is to demean the accomplishments of Vettel and Alonso, suggesting that they have had it easy compared to Lewis because you feel that he always has a tough teammate because he welcomes the competition and won't stand for a lesser teammate as you try to portray Massa & Kimi. Is that it? If so... bullroar.
;)

Wow you read a lot into what I say to diagnose my inner feelings.

Regarding Kimi nobody would pay him what he wanted so he chose not to drive in F1, his buy out was $17M to be reduced to $12M if he drove for another team the following year, McLaren offered Kimi a seat but aware of Kimi's situation only offered him $5M making him back up to $17M, obviously under normal conditions McLaren would have paid Kimi more than $5M. Kimi saw McLaren as taking advantage of his situation and viewed it as him basically driving for free so turned them down.

Comparisons between Kimi and Massa with Hamilton is only with the retirement debate we have been having and why you are dragging the likes of Vettel and Alonso in respect to Hamilton into it I don't know?

Clearly Hamilton's situation is completely different from both Kimi and Massa, it's been suggested that Hamilton would walk out on a $30M a year contract of his own free will, whereas both Kimi and Massa were dropped from their respective teams before leaving F1 albeit on a temporary basis.


So you changed your story from "no one would pay, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went", to "McLaren wouldn't pay more than $5M"?

There might be another moment for the consideration apart from your conclusion that it was the insufficient money offered to him by the McLaren/Santander deal. Such as Kimi being de motivated and disgusted with the politics in F1 and particularly with Ferrari/Santander so off he went, a rich WDC, to live his life the way he loved to?


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:59 pm 
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Why are there several pages about a driver who's still under contract for next in the Silly Season thread? I mean I know it's the summer break, but come on man.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Perez will most likely be retained by Force India by Spa as he's unlikely to go to Ferrari or Renault:
https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/-230324/szafnauer-confirms-force-india-is-nearing-perez-contract

Good for FI to retain the drivers though.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:11 pm 
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I have a feeling we could be looking at the silly season with the least amount of changes in a *long* time.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Llotyhy wrote:
I have a feeling we could be looking at the silly season with the least amount of changes in a *long* time.


Definitely there will be changes at Renault & Sauber.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:32 am 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:

They chose not to race anymore because no one would pay them, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went, then came back again when Lotus made him an offer he couldn't refuse, likewise Massa came back again when Williams needed him with a $5M salary, also to think that Massa could have driven for a backmarker team without bringing money to the team I think is a bit fanciful. This is a far cry from Hamilton walking out on a $30M a year contract.

Regarding Massa or Kimi being in discussions about retiring this was very much a case of talking about them being sacked, Massa's been out performed by his teammate the last 7 years whilst Kimi has been out performed these last 4 years by his teammates, again a far cry from Hamilton who has only been out performed for 1 year in his career, so is far from likely to be dropped by his team.


Why are you being so obtuse when it comes to Kimi's situation?
It is not true that "no one would pay" him, Kimi was going to be paid, whether he drove or not, the Ferrari buy-out assured him of that. Had he accepted a position at another F1 team, he would have had to sacrifice all or part of that buyout as I recall, dependent on what they paid him. He, apparently, chose not to pursue another F1 ride at the time, that does not mean that he had no option as you seem to imply. By going to rally racing, Kimi got the Ferrari money AND whatever pay received from the rally team. It was his choice. Just because he chose an different form of racing, it does not mean that he was forced out of F1 or that no team wanted him. For some reason, it appears important to you to claim that neither Kimi, nor Massa, had any choice... why is that, and how is it related to your spirited defense/promotion of Lewis?

As for Massa, I am not sure that I agree with you that he could not have gotten another ride had he wanted to, nor with Cov's suggestion that it would likely be a back-marker team (of course, that is dependent on one's definition of back-marker) He is still a talented driver as seen this year. He would not have gotten the huge paychecks that he has in the past, but I suspect that there are some teams that would value his skills, experience, and F1 popularity, especially if they are wanting to groom a promising young driver.

I am just confused why it is so important to you to paint Kimi and Massa in the worst possible way.... unless it is to demean the accomplishments of Vettel and Alonso, suggesting that they have had it easy compared to Lewis because you feel that he always has a tough teammate because he welcomes the competition and won't stand for a lesser teammate as you try to portray Massa & Kimi. Is that it? If so... bullroar.
;)

Wow you read a lot into what I say to diagnose my inner feelings.

Regarding Kimi nobody would pay him what he wanted so he chose not to drive in F1, his buy out was $17M to be reduced to $12M if he drove for another team the following year, McLaren offered Kimi a seat but aware of Kimi's situation only offered him $5M making him back up to $17M, obviously under normal conditions McLaren would have paid Kimi more than $5M. Kimi saw McLaren as taking advantage of his situation and viewed it as him basically driving for free so turned them down.

Comparisons between Kimi and Massa with Hamilton is only with the retirement debate we have been having and why you are dragging the likes of Vettel and Alonso in respect to Hamilton into it I don't know?

Clearly Hamilton's situation is completely different from both Kimi and Massa, it's been suggested that Hamilton would walk out on a $30M a year contract of his own free will, whereas both Kimi and Massa were dropped from their respective teams before leaving F1 albeit on a temporary basis.


So you changed your story from "no one would pay, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went", to "McLaren wouldn't pay more than $5M"?

There might be another moment for the consideration apart from your conclusion that it was the insufficient money offered to him by the McLaren/Santander deal. Such as Kimi being de motivated and disgusted with the politics in F1 and particularly with Ferrari/Santander so off he went, a rich WDC, to live his life the way he loved to?

Do you think that Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?

He doesn't drive in F1 = $17M
He drivers for Mclaren = $17M
He goes rallying = $18M/$19M.

These are things that I read at the time that he expected more money from McLaren.

$5M to drive for McLaren, Massa is getting paid the same amount this year to drive for Williams.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:33 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Why are there several pages about a driver who's still under contract for next in the Silly Season thread? I mean I know it's the summer break, but come on man.

Who would that be?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:34 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
I have a feeling we could be looking at the silly season with the least amount of changes in a *long* time.


Definitely there will be changes at Renault & Sauber.

That wouldn't be a lot though.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:06 am 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
I have a feeling we could be looking at the silly season with the least amount of changes in a *long* time.


Definitely there will be changes at Renault & Sauber.

That wouldn't be a lot though.


Blame it on Kimi / Ferrari for not allowing a cascading effect.

As long as Leclerc gets a Sauber seat & Kubica gets Renault seat, I'm satisfied.

If the reports of Honda engine having some more upgrades is true & if McLaren Honda do get quite competitive, Alonso sticking to McLaren won't be bad & if he manages to win in that team in 2018, it will be a good story afterall.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
So you changed your story from "no one would pay, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went", to "McLaren wouldn't pay more than $5M"?

There might be another moment for the consideration apart from your conclusion that it was the insufficient money offered to him by the McLaren/Santander deal. Such as Kimi being de motivated and disgusted with the politics in F1 and particularly with Ferrari/Santander so off he went, a rich WDC, to live his life the way he loved to?

Do you think that Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?

He doesn't drive in F1 = $17M
He drivers for Mclaren = $17M
He goes rallying = $18M/$19M.

These are things that I read at the time that he expected more money from McLaren.

$5M to drive for McLaren, Massa is getting paid the same amount this year to drive for Williams.


Do you think you are supporting your starting claim "no one would pay Kimi" (hence off he went) with your rhetorical question "Do you think Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?" ?
Kimi's market value obviously did not play the role there. There was no other team as the realistic option anyway but McLaren, as that one was reportedly one of the two "good bye" options available to Kimi. Both in arrangement by Santander. One was to walk away from Ferrari and F1 and get paid, the other to walk away from Ferrari and get the seat in McLaren and get paid - the same money. Going rallying had nothing to do with the case. It's like my company offers me two alternatives:

a) my year salary to go away from them and the branch and do what I please
b) my year salary to go away from them and work for it in some other company (however they split the bill)

And I chose a). And then I use my time as I like, even earning some extra bucks too by doing that what I like to go killing my time with. And you go "no one in the branch wanted to pay him, so he went fishing and picking mushrooms."
(and look, everybody in the branch wanted to pay me when I was done with that fun)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:36 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
I have a feeling we could be looking at the silly season with the least amount of changes in a *long* time.


Definitely there will be changes at Renault & Sauber.

That wouldn't be a lot though.


Blame it on Kimi / Ferrari for not allowing a cascading effect.

As long as Leclerc gets a Sauber seat & Kubica gets Renault seat, I'm satisfied.

If the reports of Honda engine having some more upgrades is true & if McLaren Honda do get quite competitive, Alonso sticking to McLaren won't be bad & if he manages to win in that team in 2018, it will be a good story afterall.

I'd go along with all of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 11:50 am 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
So you changed your story from "no one would pay, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went", to "McLaren wouldn't pay more than $5M"?

There might be another moment for the consideration apart from your conclusion that it was the insufficient money offered to him by the McLaren/Santander deal. Such as Kimi being de motivated and disgusted with the politics in F1 and particularly with Ferrari/Santander so off he went, a rich WDC, to live his life the way he loved to?

Do you think that Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?

He doesn't drive in F1 = $17M
He drivers for Mclaren = $17M
He goes rallying = $18M/$19M.

These are things that I read at the time that he expected more money from McLaren.

$5M to drive for McLaren, Massa is getting paid the same amount this year to drive for Williams.


Do you think you are supporting your starting claim "no one would pay Kimi" (hence off he went) with your rhetorical question "Do you think Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?" ?
Kimi's market value obviously did not play the role there. There was no other team as the realistic option anyway but McLaren, as that one was reportedly one of the two "good bye" options available to Kimi. Both in arrangement by Santander. One was to walk away from Ferrari and F1 and get paid, the other to walk away from Ferrari and get the seat in McLaren and get paid - the same money. Going rallying had nothing to do with the case. It's like my company offers me two alternatives:

a) my year salary to go away from them and the branch and do what I please
b) my year salary to go away from them and work for it in some other company (however they split the bill)

And I chose a). And then I use my time as I like, even earning some extra bucks too by doing that what I like to go killing my time with. And you go "no one in the branch wanted to pay him, so he went fishing and picking mushrooms."
(and look, everybody in the branch wanted to pay me when I was done with that fun)

Trying to compare a normal working situation to F1, do you already have the money in the bank you could retire if you so wish, also would you have no guarantee of future employment like Kimi had, if not then I guess you don't take the year off? .

The bottom line is that McLaren tried to take advantage of the situation and sign Kimi on the cheap, if McLaren really were desperate to sign Kimi then they could have offered him more money.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
So you changed your story from "no one would pay, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went", to "McLaren wouldn't pay more than $5M"?

There might be another moment for the consideration apart from your conclusion that it was the insufficient money offered to him by the McLaren/Santander deal. Such as Kimi being de motivated and disgusted with the politics in F1 and particularly with Ferrari/Santander so off he went, a rich WDC, to live his life the way he loved to?

Do you think that Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?

He doesn't drive in F1 = $17M
He drivers for Mclaren = $17M
He goes rallying = $18M/$19M.

These are things that I read at the time that he expected more money from McLaren.

$5M to drive for McLaren, Massa is getting paid the same amount this year to drive for Williams.


Do you think you are supporting your starting claim "no one would pay Kimi" (hence off he went) with your rhetorical question "Do you think Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?" ?
Kimi's market value obviously did not play the role there. There was no other team as the realistic option anyway but McLaren, as that one was reportedly one of the two "good bye" options available to Kimi. Both in arrangement by Santander. One was to walk away from Ferrari and F1 and get paid, the other to walk away from Ferrari and get the seat in McLaren and get paid - the same money. Going rallying had nothing to do with the case. It's like my company offers me two alternatives:

a) my year salary to go away from them and the branch and do what I please
b) my year salary to go away from them and work for it in some other company (however they split the bill)

And I chose a). And then I use my time as I like, even earning some extra bucks too by doing that what I like to go killing my time with. And you go "no one in the branch wanted to pay him, so he went fishing and picking mushrooms."
(and look, everybody in the branch wanted to pay me when I was done with that fun)

Trying to compare a normal working situation to F1, do you already have the money in the bank you could retire if you so wish, also would you have no guarantee of future employment like Kimi had, if not then I guess you don't take the year off? .

The bottom line is that McLaren tried to take advantage of the situation and sign Kimi on the cheap, if McLaren really were desperate to sign Kimi then they could have offered him more money.

Or they simply didn't have the budget. Reports are that they signed Jenson for 6m, so it looks like that's all they had available at the time. It's not necessarily a question of motivation.

Anyway, AFAIAA the money thing was speculation at the time. Not sure it was ever proven? I remember reading that Kimi had his heart set on doing some rallying, too, and tried to have some allowances made in his contract (bit like Alonso and Indy this year). Combine the fact that McLaren looked to want to pay far less than what he felt he was worth, together with his desire to rally at least in part, together with his general disillusionment after his Ferrari experience, and you'll probably get a little closer to the truth than simply "it was all about the money." He chose to retire because he had an option to stay, but decided on balance that it wasn't what he wanted


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
So you changed your story from "no one would pay, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went", to "McLaren wouldn't pay more than $5M"?

There might be another moment for the consideration apart from your conclusion that it was the insufficient money offered to him by the McLaren/Santander deal. Such as Kimi being de motivated and disgusted with the politics in F1 and particularly with Ferrari/Santander so off he went, a rich WDC, to live his life the way he loved to?

Do you think that Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?

He doesn't drive in F1 = $17M
He drivers for Mclaren = $17M
He goes rallying = $18M/$19M.

These are things that I read at the time that he expected more money from McLaren.

$5M to drive for McLaren, Massa is getting paid the same amount this year to drive for Williams.


Do you think you are supporting your starting claim "no one would pay Kimi" (hence off he went) with your rhetorical question "Do you think Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?" ?
Kimi's market value obviously did not play the role there. There was no other team as the realistic option anyway but McLaren, as that one was reportedly one of the two "good bye" options available to Kimi. Both in arrangement by Santander. One was to walk away from Ferrari and F1 and get paid, the other to walk away from Ferrari and get the seat in McLaren and get paid - the same money. Going rallying had nothing to do with the case. It's like my company offers me two alternatives:

a) my year salary to go away from them and the branch and do what I please
b) my year salary to go away from them and work for it in some other company (however they split the bill)

And I chose a). And then I use my time as I like, even earning some extra bucks too by doing that what I like to go killing my time with. And you go "no one in the branch wanted to pay him, so he went fishing and picking mushrooms."
(and look, everybody in the branch wanted to pay me when I was done with that fun)

Trying to compare a normal working situation to F1, do you already have the money in the bank you could retire if you so wish, also would you have no guarantee of future employment like Kimi had, if not then I guess you don't take the year off? .

The bottom line is that McLaren tried to take advantage of the situation and sign Kimi on the cheap, if McLaren really were desperate to sign Kimi then they could have offered him more money.


Nobody said anything about "retiring".

Option 1) 2 year full pay (2010+severance) provided he walked away from F1 for 1.5 years.

If my employer would give me now such an option (as opposed to work elsewhere for that same money), I take it in a heart beat! Never mind whether I had a retirement money in the bank or not (anyway, Kimi had). I pocket the money and go earn money in some other way, if I needed or wanted to (I am capable of variety of other jobs - Kimi was too).

And so after that period of 2 years was over, Kimi was back. So let's give him a break with "no one would pay"?


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Llotyhy wrote:
I have a feeling we could be looking at the silly season with the least amount of changes in a *long* time.


Definitely there will be changes at Renault & Sauber.

That wouldn't be a lot though.


Blame it on Kimi / Ferrari for not allowing a cascading effect.

As long as Leclerc gets a Sauber seat & Kubica gets Renault seat, I'm satisfied.

If the reports of Honda engine having some more upgrades is true & if McLaren Honda do get quite competitive, Alonso sticking to McLaren won't be bad & if he manages to win in that team in 2018, it will be a good story afterall.

I'd go along with all of that.


To add to this, I remember Toto Wolff saying there could be a few surprises when asked about Wehrlein's seat at Ferrari powered Sauber.

Force India's Otmar Szafnauer also said that even though he expects Perez to stay but should he move (as contract is still not signed), Wehrlein could be 1 of the possible candidates.

Wolff could also shuffle Ocon to Renault to make space for Wehrlein.

Still there are quite possible puzzle pieces that still need to be put into place.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:49 am 
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Posts: 23724
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
So you changed your story from "no one would pay, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went", to "McLaren wouldn't pay more than $5M"?

There might be another moment for the consideration apart from your conclusion that it was the insufficient money offered to him by the McLaren/Santander deal. Such as Kimi being de motivated and disgusted with the politics in F1 and particularly with Ferrari/Santander so off he went, a rich WDC, to live his life the way he loved to?

Do you think that Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?

He doesn't drive in F1 = $17M
He drivers for Mclaren = $17M
He goes rallying = $18M/$19M.

These are things that I read at the time that he expected more money from McLaren.

$5M to drive for McLaren, Massa is getting paid the same amount this year to drive for Williams.


Do you think you are supporting your starting claim "no one would pay Kimi" (hence off he went) with your rhetorical question "Do you think Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?" ?
Kimi's market value obviously did not play the role there. There was no other team as the realistic option anyway but McLaren, as that one was reportedly one of the two "good bye" options available to Kimi. Both in arrangement by Santander. One was to walk away from Ferrari and F1 and get paid, the other to walk away from Ferrari and get the seat in McLaren and get paid - the same money. Going rallying had nothing to do with the case. It's like my company offers me two alternatives:

a) my year salary to go away from them and the branch and do what I please
b) my year salary to go away from them and work for it in some other company (however they split the bill)

And I chose a). And then I use my time as I like, even earning some extra bucks too by doing that what I like to go killing my time with. And you go "no one in the branch wanted to pay him, so he went fishing and picking mushrooms."
(and look, everybody in the branch wanted to pay me when I was done with that fun)

Trying to compare a normal working situation to F1, do you already have the money in the bank you could retire if you so wish, also would you have no guarantee of future employment like Kimi had, if not then I guess you don't take the year off? .

The bottom line is that McLaren tried to take advantage of the situation and sign Kimi on the cheap, if McLaren really were desperate to sign Kimi then they could have offered him more money.


Nobody said anything about "retiring".

Option 1) 2 year full pay (2010+severance) provided he walked away from F1 for 1.5 years.

If my employer would give me now such an option (as opposed to work elsewhere for that same money), I take it in a heart beat! Never mind whether I had a retirement money in the bank or not (anyway, Kimi had). I pocket the money and go earn money in some other way, if I needed or wanted to (I am capable of variety of other jobs - Kimi was too).

And so after that period of 2 years was over, Kimi was back. So let's give him a break with "no one would pay"?

I'm sure it was stated on here that Kimi retired from F1?

I'm also curious what other jobs Kimi would take up, the rally money dried up after 1 year, Kimi the TV presenter that would be something. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:53 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Definitely there will be changes at Renault & Sauber.

That wouldn't be a lot though.


Blame it on Kimi / Ferrari for not allowing a cascading effect.

As long as Leclerc gets a Sauber seat & Kubica gets Renault seat, I'm satisfied.

If the reports of Honda engine having some more upgrades is true & if McLaren Honda do get quite competitive, Alonso sticking to McLaren won't be bad & if he manages to win in that team in 2018, it will be a good story afterall.

I'd go along with all of that.


To add to this, I remember Toto Wolff saying there could be a few surprises when asked about Wehrlein's seat at Ferrari powered Sauber.

Force India's Otmar Szafnauer also said that even though he expects Perez to stay but should he move (as contract is still not signed), Wehrlein could be 1 of the possible candidates.

Wolff could also shuffle Ocon to Renault to make space for Wehrlein.

Still there are quite possible puzzle pieces that still need to be put into place.

Yeah I already went through all this on this thread.

I wonder how much longer we have to wait until all the pieces in the puzzle start to fit?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
So you changed your story from "no one would pay, Kimi got offered $1M or $2M to go rallying so off he went", to "McLaren wouldn't pay more than $5M"?

There might be another moment for the consideration apart from your conclusion that it was the insufficient money offered to him by the McLaren/Santander deal. Such as Kimi being de motivated and disgusted with the politics in F1 and particularly with Ferrari/Santander so off he went, a rich WDC, to live his life the way he loved to?

Do you think that Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?

He doesn't drive in F1 = $17M
He drivers for Mclaren = $17M
He goes rallying = $18M/$19M.

These are things that I read at the time that he expected more money from McLaren.

$5M to drive for McLaren, Massa is getting paid the same amount this year to drive for Williams.


Do you think you are supporting your starting claim "no one would pay Kimi" (hence off he went) with your rhetorical question "Do you think Kimi's F1 market value was $5M?" ?
Kimi's market value obviously did not play the role there. There was no other team as the realistic option anyway but McLaren, as that one was reportedly one of the two "good bye" options available to Kimi. Both in arrangement by Santander. One was to walk away from Ferrari and F1 and get paid, the other to walk away from Ferrari and get the seat in McLaren and get paid - the same money. Going rallying had nothing to do with the case. It's like my company offers me two alternatives:

a) my year salary to go away from them and the branch and do what I please
b) my year salary to go away from them and work for it in some other company (however they split the bill)

And I chose a). And then I use my time as I like, even earning some extra bucks too by doing that what I like to go killing my time with. And you go "no one in the branch wanted to pay him, so he went fishing and picking mushrooms."
(and look, everybody in the branch wanted to pay me when I was done with that fun)

Trying to compare a normal working situation to F1, do you already have the money in the bank you could retire if you so wish, also would you have no guarantee of future employment like Kimi had, if not then I guess you don't take the year off? .

The bottom line is that McLaren tried to take advantage of the situation and sign Kimi on the cheap, if McLaren really were desperate to sign Kimi then they could have offered him more money.

Or they simply didn't have the budget. Reports are that they signed Jenson for 6m, so it looks like that's all they had available at the time. It's not necessarily a question of motivation.

Anyway, AFAIAA the money thing was speculation at the time. Not sure it was ever proven? I remember reading that Kimi had his heart set on doing some rallying, too, and tried to have some allowances made in his contract (bit like Alonso and Indy this year). Combine the fact that McLaren looked to want to pay far less than what he felt he was worth, together with his desire to rally at least in part, together with his general disillusionment after his Ferrari experience, and you'll probably get a little closer to the truth than simply "it was all about the money." He chose to retire because he had an option to stay, but decided on balance that it wasn't what he wanted

Yeah there's probably some substance in what you say, also interesting what you said about the McLaren budget.

Let's say though that I'm a bit sceptical about Kimi's motivations and they seem to me to be a bit money driven, he did say a lot of nice things about rallying and gave the impression that he preferred that to F1.

However his second season in rallying was perhaps not so magical when he found he was having to pay out of his own pocket and when Lotus waved a cheque at him he was back in F1 the following season.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:16 pm 
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I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:

Is that not how most things go as we start to make comparisons, also what has the thread topic got to do with the possible retirement of Hamilton in the first place, only Hamilton can be put under the microscope perhaps?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:


Massively off topic but can anyone think of another driver who turned down a WDC contending car because they didn't offer him enough money?

You could argue perhaps Hill in 98 but he insists he didn't turn Mclaren down because of the money but because they never really wanted him. Can't think of many others off hand. Let alone when the driver in question actually decided to sit out the season rather than compete for championship.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:

Is that not how most things go as we start to make comparisons, also what has the thread topic got to do with the possible retirement of Hamilton in the first place, only Hamilton can be put under the microscope perhaps?

Maybe you should ask yourself, aren't you the one who turned the thread into a Hamilton retirement argument?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:


Massively off topic but can anyone think of another driver who turned down a WDC contending car because they didn't offer him enough money?

You could argue perhaps Hill in 98 but he insists he didn't turn Mclaren down because of the money but because they never really wanted him. Can't think of many others off hand. Let alone when the driver in question actually decided to sit out the season rather than compete for championship.

Indeed I thought about mentioning that as well in questioning Kimi's motivation although it's been said on here that perhaps he just had enough of F1 because of his experience with Ferrari, but still surely a driver's ultimate motivation should be to win races and titles after all the McLaren was looking a better car than the Ferrari at the time as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:

Is that not how most things go as we start to make comparisons, also what has the thread topic got to do with the possible retirement of Hamilton in the first place, only Hamilton can be put under the microscope perhaps?

Maybe you should ask yourself, aren't you the one who turned the thread into a Hamilton retirement argument?

You mean in response to Hamilton may soon retire, this being put forward with little evidence to back it up?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:


Massively off topic but can anyone think of another driver who turned down a WDC contending car because they didn't offer him enough money?

You could argue perhaps Hill in 98 but he insists he didn't turn Mclaren down because of the money but because they never really wanted him. Can't think of many others off hand. Let alone when the driver in question actually decided to sit out the season rather than compete for championship.

Indeed I thought about mentioning that as well in questioning Kimi's motivation although it's been said on here that perhaps he just had enough of F1 because of his experience with Ferrari, but still surely a driver's ultimate motivation should be to win races and titles after all the McLaren was looking a better car than the Ferrari at the time as well.

McLaren finished 1p ahead of Ferrari in the WCC, and you have to remember Massa was injured and replaced by hopeless after hopeless drivers.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:

Is that not how most things go as we start to make comparisons, also what has the thread topic got to do with the possible retirement of Hamilton in the first place, only Hamilton can be put under the microscope perhaps?

Maybe you should ask yourself, aren't you the one who turned the thread into a Hamilton retirement argument?

You mean in response to Hamilton may soon retire, this being put forward with little evidence to back it up?

It's a non-disputable fact that it's a possibility, regardless of if you like it or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:


Massively off topic but can anyone think of another driver who turned down a WDC contending car because they didn't offer him enough money?

You could argue perhaps Hill in 98 but he insists he didn't turn Mclaren down because of the money but because they never really wanted him. Can't think of many others off hand. Let alone when the driver in question actually decided to sit out the season rather than compete for championship.

It was quite an unprecedented situation all things considered.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:


Massively off topic but can anyone think of another driver who turned down a WDC contending car because they didn't offer him enough money?

You could argue perhaps Hill in 98 but he insists he didn't turn Mclaren down because of the money but because they never really wanted him. Can't think of many others off hand. Let alone when the driver in question actually decided to sit out the season rather than compete for championship.

Indeed I thought about mentioning that as well in questioning Kimi's motivation although it's been said on here that perhaps he just had enough of F1 because of his experience with Ferrari, but still surely a driver's ultimate motivation should be to win races and titles after all the McLaren was looking a better car than the Ferrari at the time as well.

McLaren finished 1p ahead of Ferrari in the WCC, and you have to remember Massa was injured and replaced by hopeless after hopeless drivers.


Yes but Kimi turned down the 2010 car which did compete for the WDC.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Nobody said anything about "retiring".

Option 1) 2 year full pay (2010+severance) provided he walked away from F1 for 1.5 years.

If my employer would give me now such an option (as opposed to work elsewhere for that same money), I take it in a heart beat! Never mind whether I had a retirement money in the bank or not (anyway, Kimi had). I pocket the money and go earn money in some other way, if I needed or wanted to (I am capable of variety of other jobs - Kimi was too).

And so after that period of 2 years was over, Kimi was back. So let's give him a break with "no one would pay"?

I'm sure it was stated on here that Kimi retired from F1?

I'm also curious what other jobs Kimi would take up, the rally money dried up after 1 year, Kimi the TV presenter that would be something. :lol:


I couldn't bother about who where when stated that "Kimi retired from F1". I am referring to the exchange between you and me, us discussing the options available to Kimi. Those 2 options did not include "retiring from F1" nor "retiring from earning any income the rest of life" clause. And that the rally money "dried up" is pointless, the real money was coming in from Ferrari.

Anyway, I tried but it's getting only worse. So instead of staying with "no one would pay Kimi", we end up with "no one would pay Kimi" + "money dried" + "what other source of income was he capable of anyway?".
(sorry Kimi, my fault)


Last edited by Prema on Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:43 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:


Massively off topic but can anyone think of another driver who turned down a WDC contending car because they didn't offer him enough money?

You could argue perhaps Hill in 98 but he insists he didn't turn Mclaren down because of the money but because they never really wanted him. Can't think of many others off hand. Let alone when the driver in question actually decided to sit out the season rather than compete for championship.

Indeed I thought about mentioning that as well in questioning Kimi's motivation although it's been said on here that perhaps he just had enough of F1 because of his experience with Ferrari, but still surely a driver's ultimate motivation should be to win races and titles after all the McLaren was looking a better car than the Ferrari at the time as well.

McLaren finished 1p ahead of Ferrari in the WCC, and you have to remember Massa was injured and replaced by hopeless after hopeless drivers.

Hamilton scored more points than any other driver in the second half of the season, Hamilton's teammate wasn't exactly that brilliant either hence the need for another driver.

Also who approached who first, I wouldn't be too surprised if it wasn't Kimi's own management team that approached McLaren after all that's what they are paid to do in weighing up Kimi's best options.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
I have poor memory so I had to read backwards quite a bit to connect the dots what exactly the "Kimi's racing only for money" propaganda has to do with Hamilton, but apparently it's being used to prove Lewis is being singled out regarding possible retirement :lol:

Is that not how most things go as we start to make comparisons, also what has the thread topic got to do with the possible retirement of Hamilton in the first place, only Hamilton can be put under the microscope perhaps?

Maybe you should ask yourself, aren't you the one who turned the thread into a Hamilton retirement argument?

You mean in response to Hamilton may soon retire, this being put forward with little evidence to back it up?

It's a non-disputable fact that it's a possibility, regardless of if you like it or not.

But nevertheless it's still not a fact, I guess you have not read all the posts in this thread which includes Hamilton's own most recent take on his possible F1 future which didn't include retirement.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Last edited by pokerman on Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Nobody said anything about "retiring".

Option 1) 2 year full pay (2010+severance) provided he walked away from F1 for 1.5 years.

If my employer would give me now such an option (as opposed to work elsewhere for that same money), I take it in a heart beat! Never mind whether I had a retirement money in the bank or not (anyway, Kimi had). I pocket the money and go earn money in some other way, if I needed or wanted to (I am capable of variety of other jobs - Kimi was too).

And so after that period of 2 years was over, Kimi was back. So let's give him a break with "no one would pay"?

I'm sure it was stated on here that Kimi retired from F1?

I'm also curious what other jobs Kimi would take up, the rally money dried up after 1 year, Kimi the TV presenter that would be something. :lol:


I couldn't bother about who where when stated that "Kimi retired from F1". I am referring to the exchange between you and me, us discussing the options available to Kimi. Those 2 options did not include "retiring from F1" nor "retiring from earning any income the rest of life" clause. And that the rally money "dried up" is pointless, the real money was coming in from Ferrari.

Anyway, I tried but it's getting only worse. So instead of staying with "no one would pay Kimi", we end up with "no one would pay Kimi" + "money dried" + "what other source of income was he capable of anyway?".
(sorry Kimi, my fault)

The only team that had talks with Kimi's management team were McLaren, I'm guessing that's the only top team that had a seat available, they only offered Kimi $5M make of that what you will.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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