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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So what have Renault or Force India achieved that would meet Alonso's standards?

If he is seriously considering Williams then I don't see why he shouldn't consider Force India. Neither are up to his standards. But if he is that desperate to get out of McLaren then how could he charge them an arm and a leg knowing that they can't afford it?

Renault is a different kettle of fish. They've made massive improvements this year. And they still claim to be in rebuild mode. The potential is clear to see. He has won races any time he has been there, Renault have fought for titles every time they've entered as a constructor, etc. etc.
If the team aren't open to hiring him then it's all moot

I think he'd drive front running car for free

Williams being interested in Alonso doesn't mean he's interested in them, even Button turned them down.

Renault have won nothing thus far in the hybrid area, they themselves admit it will be at least another couple of years before they are ready to win.

mcdo wrote:
If he is seriously considering Williams

But like I say who said he was interested to make the rest of what you said plausible?

I said that I think he would drive a good car for a fraction of what he's charging McLaren. Pretty much none of your posts have refuted that statement (or are even relevant to the point). I think he'd move to a race winning team for damn near free at this stage and if he moved to a team with a decent car (like Force India or Renault) I believe he would take a pay cut. How could he possible charge $40m or whatever his salary is?

Him actually being interested in any of those teams is beside the point. Who knows if he's really interested in other midfield teams?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We are never going to agree about engines and it's hard to produce a dud of an engine if the engines are basically frozen in specification once they are reasonably competitive with one another and of course Renault were able to ask for a performance tweak to bring them up to speed, that's not any kind of competition, you might as well have one engine builder supplying all the field, however more so because of Ferrari that would be impractical.

Regarding McLaren I hope you are right because it gets both themselves and Alonso much closer to the pointy end of the grid.

Regarding your first paragraph, I agree that having everything frozen isn't any kind of competition, but the fact is that manufacturers weren't put off because they didn't want to look like fools. The current regulations make it difficult for manufacturers to justify taking the plunge. There's just too much risk for too little reward. You can't compare the last era to this one in that regard.

And just to be clear, here, this isn't about whether or not hybrids belong in F1, but about the regulations surrounding their introduction. All they have done is raise the barrier to entry. Unless a manufacturer gets it right at the very beginning, they are doomed to be forever also-rans.

No new engine manufacturers were interested in entering F1 before the hybrids, in fact like I said manufacturers were pulling out, so F1 is certainly no worse off now than back then, despite their problems even Honda don't actually want to pull out.

I don't really know what to say. There are clearly comprehension issues here. If you think it's as easy for a potential new engine manufacturer to join now as it was then, then we have a different idea of things.

No it's not easy but were was these potential new engine manufacturers before the hybrids, not one entered during the V8 era, the hybrids at least drew in Honda.

And the point still stands that Honda has been a failure so far and has acted as a deterrent for anybody else thinking of giving it a go. Which makes it even less likely that the manufacturer base will expand anytime soon.

In the pre-hybrid era, manufacturers didn't have to worry about their engines being seen as a laughing stock. Now that's a serious risk. Just look at all the flak that Honda are getting. previously, manufacturers left for different reasons. E.G. BMW reportedly fell out with Williams because they felt that their chassis didn't do their engine justice. Honda's engine was actually rated pretty highly. But now the hybrids - or rather, the rules surrounding their implementation - are actively putting new manufacturers off, for reasons already described. Which is not exactly a ringing endorsement of the new era. If Honda exits we'll have fewer engine suppliers than at any time this century


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:39 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:56 pm 
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I agree with Saward that Honda should just buy Toro Rosso and go full works again.

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/08 ... uxembourg/

How much have they paid McLaren in three years, $300m ? Toro Rosso are only valued around $150m.

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Last edited by mas on Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:58 am 
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Another nail in the coffin!

Williams are denying they've had any talks with Alonso:
http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/formula-1/williams/news/williams-deny-2018-alonso-talks_306027.html

Indycar now?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:48 am 
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Yep! It's pretty much McLaren or IndyCar for him now. It's clear that he'll probably not join Mercedes or Ferrari any time soon. Renault claim they aren't ready for him yet. RBR have their own drivers. So his only options would be staying at McLaren hoping they come good (with or without Honda), or leaving F1 altogether. I don't think staying in the midfield fighting for 1-digit points in a FI/Williams is something he would want to do. A 1-year stop-gap, maybe, but there won't be any room for him in the near future at any top team. Mercedes just smacked him down for good (see Toto's comments about his history with Mercedes), and Ferrari just signed Vettel for 3 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:45 am 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
If he is seriously considering Williams then I don't see why he shouldn't consider Force India. Neither are up to his standards. But if he is that desperate to get out of McLaren then how could he charge them an arm and a leg knowing that they can't afford it?

Renault is a different kettle of fish. They've made massive improvements this year. And they still claim to be in rebuild mode. The potential is clear to see. He has won races any time he has been there, Renault have fought for titles every time they've entered as a constructor, etc. etc.
If the team aren't open to hiring him then it's all moot

I think he'd drive front running car for free

Williams being interested in Alonso doesn't mean he's interested in them, even Button turned them down.

Renault have won nothing thus far in the hybrid area, they themselves admit it will be at least another couple of years before they are ready to win.

mcdo wrote:
If he is seriously considering Williams

But like I say who said he was interested to make the rest of what you said plausible?

I said that I think he would drive a good car for a fraction of what he's charging McLaren. Pretty much none of your posts have refuted that statement (or are even relevant to the point). I think he'd move to a race winning team for damn near free at this stage and if he moved to a team with a decent car (like Force India or Renault) I believe he would take a pay cut. How could he possible charge $40m or whatever his salary is?

Him actually being interested in any of those teams is beside the point. Who knows if he's really interested in other midfield teams?

Well that's different to what you was implying before were you implied that Alonso was interested, now it's just your opinion.

Personally I think that Alonso wants to be in a winning car or one that has the potential to be a winning car in the near future so that rules out the likes of Williams and Force India.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:52 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Regarding your first paragraph, I agree that having everything frozen isn't any kind of competition, but the fact is that manufacturers weren't put off because they didn't want to look like fools. The current regulations make it difficult for manufacturers to justify taking the plunge. There's just too much risk for too little reward. You can't compare the last era to this one in that regard.

And just to be clear, here, this isn't about whether or not hybrids belong in F1, but about the regulations surrounding their introduction. All they have done is raise the barrier to entry. Unless a manufacturer gets it right at the very beginning, they are doomed to be forever also-rans.

No new engine manufacturers were interested in entering F1 before the hybrids, in fact like I said manufacturers were pulling out, so F1 is certainly no worse off now than back then, despite their problems even Honda don't actually want to pull out.

I don't really know what to say. There are clearly comprehension issues here. If you think it's as easy for a potential new engine manufacturer to join now as it was then, then we have a different idea of things.

No it's not easy but were was these potential new engine manufacturers before the hybrids, not one entered during the V8 era, the hybrids at least drew in Honda.

And the point still stands that Honda has been a failure so far and has acted as a deterrent for anybody else thinking of giving it a go. Which makes it even less likely that the manufacturer base will expand anytime soon.

In the pre-hybrid era, manufacturers didn't have to worry about their engines being seen as a laughing stock. Now that's a serious risk. Just look at all the flak that Honda are getting. previously, manufacturers left for different reasons. E.G. BMW reportedly fell out with Williams because they felt that their chassis didn't do their engine justice. Honda's engine was actually rated pretty highly. But now the hybrids - or rather, the rules surrounding their implementation - are actively putting new manufacturers off, for reasons already described. Which is not exactly a ringing endorsement of the new era. If Honda exits we'll have fewer engine suppliers than at any time this century

BMW had their own team when they pulled out, manufacturers were leaving left, right and centre, Honda actually don't want to leave.

The fact that new manufacturers may be put off by the complexity of the hybrids I think is a bit mute when they were never interested in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Surprise surprise

Fernando Alonso says McLaren-Honda can still be world champions
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... -champions

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:42 pm 
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So what caused that, the realization that he's not going to get a top seat next year or that McLaren are stuck with Honda and he likes the salary and freedom. As to Honda although they have not been effective they have been busy over the last three years going through all the engine learning curves on two different designs. This kind of industriousness could pay off in the end if they ever find the right direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:39 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Surprise surprise

Fernando Alonso says McLaren-Honda can still be world champions
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... -champions

Hmm, dunno. The pedantic in me noticed that while the title says McLaren-Honda, Alonso is only quoted as saying "we." Could be talking about McLaren and having faith in them


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:43 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Surprise surprise

Fernando Alonso says McLaren-Honda can still be world champions
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... -champions

Yeah that seems to be a bit of a turnaround, let's hope that Honda can be more competitive next year.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:34 am 
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I suppose it shouldn't really be a surprise to see him being a little more positive. His options have whittled down to staying at McLaren, moving to Renault - who have very publicly and very wisely tempered expectations about how competitive they might be next year - or leaving F1 altogether. If he's keen to stay in F1 then the latter isn't an option, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Hamilton hinting at an extension with Mercedes makes silly season 2019 a bit less enthralling.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:58 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Hamilton hinting at an extension with Mercedes makes silly season 2019 a bit less enthralling.


Possibly, although I would be a little surprised if Bottas is given a contract that guarantees him the second Mercedes seat beyond 2018. I could imagine him being given a one-year extension with options for Mercedes to extend the partnership into 2019.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:53 pm 
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High level talks today between McLaren and the Renault big chief Jerome Stoll with Ross Brawn also at the meeting.

When interviewed Zak Brown said that McLaren have not had a podium for the past 3 years and the team need to make a sporting decision.

It's looking like a McLaren with Renault engines and it's also looking like Honda will supply STR were the engines can be developed in a midfield team out of the spotlight, I guess this also would be financially attractive to STR.

Meanwhile the main team Red Bull can wait in the background and if the Honda engines become competitive then they have their own works engines.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:12 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Hamilton hinting at an extension with Mercedes makes silly season 2019 a bit less enthralling.

Frankly, there is nothing else for him to go hinting at. Bar the retirement, perhaps.

What's left in dark, is Alonso situation. He is saying he is "extremely happy" in McHonda, Honda is saying it is very clear that he doesn't want to stay with Honda, and the whole thing with McLaren and Honda next year is not clear either.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
High level talks today between McLaren and the Renault big chief Jerome Stoll with Ross Brawn also at the meeting.

When interviewed Zak Brown said that McLaren have not had a podium for the past 3 years and the team need to make a sporting decision.

It's looking like a McLaren with Renault engines and it's also looking like Honda will supply STR were the engines can be developed in a midfield team out of the spotlight, I guess this also would be financially attractive to STR.

Meanwhile the main team Red Bull can wait in the background and if the Honda engines become competitive then they have their own works engines.



While I think it's the wrong decision long term. I see the merit in taking a Renault engine that will deliver McLaren a bit nearer the front than Honda can at the moment. With it they should be able to at least get some podiums and maybe the odd win if things fall their way.

Maybe McLaren can reunite with Honda should they ever get themselves sorted out.

That might keep Alonso happy. Which sadly I think they should do for the moment, Stoffel isn't covering himself in glory at the moment (although that's hard to do in his situation!)

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:08 pm 
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If McLaren are going to Renault they better be damn confident they have one of the best cars on the grid and that they can make it work with a different engine.

If they put the Renault in the back and are still well off the pace of the Red Bulls, or even worse off the pace of both the Factory Renault and Red Bull, it's going to look really bad.

Also you have the possibility of Honda going to another team and possibly making a bit of a leap in performance between seasons...

Feels like a big gamble to me. More so than sticking it out with Honda at least until the new engine regs.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:30 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
If McLaren are going to Renault they better be damn confident they have one of the best cars on the grid and that they can make it work with a different engine.

If they put the Renault in the back and are still well off the pace of the Red Bulls, or even worse off the pace of both the Factory Renault and Red Bull, it's going to look really bad.

Also you have the possibility of Honda going to another team and possibly making a bit of a leap in performance between seasons...

Feels like a big gamble to me. More so than sticking it out with Honda at least until the new engine regs.


The Renault engine is bigger, heavier and has a higher c. of g. than the Honda and needs more cooling area. Maybe the mclaren chassis will
not look so nimble once the Renault engine is in, and TBH I dont know that the Renault is any more reliable (right now). Also, with the last upgrade, I am not even sure the Renault has as much low end grunt as the Honda.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:34 pm 
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We know that Bottas and Mercedes are in negotiations at the moment, Wolff called Bottas a tough negotiator. It seems it's the contract length that's the problem, Mercedes only want to give Bottas a 1 year contract whilst Bottas wants longer probably 2 years.

For Mercedes the reason for this is that they want to keep their options open for 2019 between Bottas, Ocon, Ricciardo and Verstappen, Ocon and Ricciardo will be out of contract whilst Verstappen has an exit clause.

Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

These are the rumours circulating around.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
We know that Bottas and Mercedes are in negotiations at the moment, Wolff called Bottas a tough negotiator. It seems it's the contract length that's the problem, Mercedes only want to give Bottas a 1 year contract whilst Bottas wants longer probably 2 years.

For Mercedes the reason for this is that they want to keep their options open for 2019 between Bottas, Ocon, Ricciardo and Verstappen, Ocon and Ricciardo will be out of contract whilst Verstappen has an exit clause.

Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

These are the rumours circulating around.


Personally, I don't buy into the rumour that Verstappen's contract has a release clause. Given Red Bull gave him a contract that meant he had an F1 seat less than a year after signing it, and then supposedly a move to their senior team guaranteed by no later than the start of his third year in F1, I find it very, very difficult to imagine that it would also contain an exit clause. It just makes no sense, especially as it wasn't like Mercedes (or any other team that might've been interested) were willing to offer him such a fast route into F1.

Further to that, I actually hope he doesn't have such a clause. It wouldn't hurt him/his dad to show a little more loyalty/appreciation to Red Bull for actually giving him the opportunities he has had so far.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

So THAT'S why he has been breaking his car and DNFing as much as he can!

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

They'd be stupid to agree to that. Max doesn't have many bargaining chips anymore, and he'll lose all the remaining ones as soon as Bottas re-signs.

He should try talking to Alonso about all those top seats he can get into. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:25 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We know that Bottas and Mercedes are in negotiations at the moment, Wolff called Bottas a tough negotiator. It seems it's the contract length that's the problem, Mercedes only want to give Bottas a 1 year contract whilst Bottas wants longer probably 2 years.

For Mercedes the reason for this is that they want to keep their options open for 2019 between Bottas, Ocon, Ricciardo and Verstappen, Ocon and Ricciardo will be out of contract whilst Verstappen has an exit clause.

Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

These are the rumours circulating around.


Personally, I don't buy into the rumour that Verstappen's contract has a release clause. Given Red Bull gave him a contract that meant he had an F1 seat less than a year after signing it, and then supposedly a move to their senior team guaranteed by no later than the start of his third year in F1, I find it very, very difficult to imagine that it would also contain an exit clause. It just makes no sense, especially as it wasn't like Mercedes (or any other team that might've been interested) were willing to offer him such a fast route into F1.

Further to that, I actually hope he doesn't have such a clause. It wouldn't hurt him/his dad to show a little more loyalty/appreciation to Red Bull for actually giving him the opportunities he has had so far.

I believe this is not the initial contract that he signed when he entered F1, but a secondary contract when he moved up to the Red Bull team a 2+1 year contract, Hamilton's present contract is a 2+1 year contract with Mercedes with the last year option for Hamilton to decide.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:26 am 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

So THAT'S why he has been breaking his car and DNFing as much as he can!

Not quite the contract is iron clad for next year.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:27 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

They'd be stupid to agree to that. Max doesn't have many bargaining chips anymore, and he'll lose all the remaining ones as soon as Bottas re-signs.

He should try talking to Alonso about all those top seats he can get into. 8)

That's if Bottas gets a 2 year contract?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

They'd be stupid to agree to that. Max doesn't have many bargaining chips anymore, and he'll lose all the remaining ones as soon as Bottas re-signs.

He should try talking to Alonso about all those top seats he can get into. 8)

That's if Bottas gets a 2 year contract?

I doubt they'd want to sign him to a rolling 1-yr contract, honestly. That would put them with both of their drivers potentially out of contract after next year, and teams don't like doing that.

Personally, considering that Bottas is Toto's driver and they're doing just fine with him being unable to challenge Hamilton, I expect something longer.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:39 am 
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Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:40 am 
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F1Oz wrote:
Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.

Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:33 am 
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Exediron wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.

Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?


Each 'top' driver is a different set of circumstances, though. You can write off a Hamilton/Alonso partnership at Mercedes, and most probably a Hamilton/Vettel one, too. Would Max Verstappen fit alongside Lewis? I don't think so. He's phenomenally talented on the track and has age on his side, but he/his father are developing a nasty habit of throwing their toys out the pram a little, and it does feel (at least to me) that if it were Hamilton vs. Verstappen for the WDC, you've got a lot of potential for it to combust.

Daniel Ricciardo, on the other hand, is potentially available at the end of next year, would be a clear upgrade on Bottas and has co-existed with his teammates to date. Of course, that hasn't been under the pressure of a situation where he and his teammate are in direct competition for the WDC, but of the four 'top' drivers he seems like the one who would cause the least issues alongside Lewis. Certainly, if I were making that decision and Ricciardo was available, I'd have no qualms about pairing those two, and would be a lot more confident in the mood remaining positive than I would with Hamilton alongside Vettel/Alonso/Verstappen.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:52 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.

Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?


Each 'top' driver is a different set of circumstances, though. You can write off a Hamilton/Alonso partnership at Mercedes, and most probably a Hamilton/Vettel one, too. Would Max Verstappen fit alongside Lewis? I don't think so. He's phenomenally talented on the track and has age on his side, but he/his father are developing a nasty habit of throwing their toys out the pram a little, and it does feel (at least to me) that if it were Hamilton vs. Verstappen for the WDC, you've got a lot of potential for it to combust.

Daniel Ricciardo, on the other hand, is potentially available at the end of next year, would be a clear upgrade on Bottas and has co-existed with his teammates to date. Of course, that hasn't been under the pressure of a situation where he and his teammate are in direct competition for the WDC, but of the four 'top' drivers he seems like the one who would cause the least issues alongside Lewis. Certainly, if I were making that decision and Ricciardo was available, I'd have no qualms about pairing those two, and would be a lot more confident in the mood remaining positive than I would with Hamilton alongside Vettel/Alonso/Verstappen.

I broadly agree, except that I'd say the drivers who are most likely to have issues with competitive team mates would be Hamilton and Alonso only. So far I haven't seen Verstappen having notable issues with Ricciardo (well, none that immediately spring to mind), while Vettel seemed to take his beating by Ricciardo fairly equanimously. I know Max and Sainz famously didn't get on, but not entirely sure who was the originator there.

I think both Alonso and Hamilton need to have team mates who don't threaten them, while the others haven't really shown that to be the case (although that said a case could be made for Verstappen because of his relationship with Sainz). So I don't see a partnership between Alonso and Hamilton working, but one of the other three with them might work, although I still think it would be a headache. Mercedes seem far better off sticking with a Hamilton/Bottas scenario, where Bottas is clearly inferior and apparently apolitical, while still being quick enough to steal points off competitors. Kimi fits the first two criteria at Ferrari, for example, but he's not consistently doing the the latter point. The only probable issue with that scenario, of course, is succession planning...


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:43 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.

Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?


Each 'top' driver is a different set of circumstances, though. You can write off a Hamilton/Alonso partnership at Mercedes, and most probably a Hamilton/Vettel one, too. Would Max Verstappen fit alongside Lewis? I don't think so. He's phenomenally talented on the track and has age on his side, but he/his father are developing a nasty habit of throwing their toys out the pram a little, and it does feel (at least to me) that if it were Hamilton vs. Verstappen for the WDC, you've got a lot of potential for it to combust.

Daniel Ricciardo, on the other hand, is potentially available at the end of next year, would be a clear upgrade on Bottas and has co-existed with his teammates to date. Of course, that hasn't been under the pressure of a situation where he and his teammate are in direct competition for the WDC, but of the four 'top' drivers he seems like the one who would cause the least issues alongside Lewis. Certainly, if I were making that decision and Ricciardo was available, I'd have no qualms about pairing those two, and would be a lot more confident in the mood remaining positive than I would with Hamilton alongside Vettel/Alonso/Verstappen.

I broadly agree, except that I'd say the drivers who are most likely to have issues with competitive team mates would be Hamilton and Alonso only. So far I haven't seen Verstappen having notable issues with Ricciardo (well, none that immediately spring to mind), while Vettel seemed to take his beating by Ricciardo fairly equanimously. I know Max and Sainz famously didn't get on, but not entirely sure who was the originator there.

I think both Alonso and Hamilton need to have team mates who don't threaten them, while the others haven't really shown that to be the case (although that said a case could be made for Verstappen because of his relationship with Sainz). So I don't see a partnership between Alonso and Hamilton working, but one of the other three with them might work, although I still think it would be a headache. Mercedes seem far better off sticking with a Hamilton/Bottas scenario, where Bottas is clearly inferior and apparently apolitical, while still being quick enough to steal points off competitors. Kimi fits the first two criteria at Ferrari, for example, but he's not consistently doing the the latter point. The only probable issue with that scenario, of course, is succession planning...


I think with Max, the biggest reasons I'd avoid pairing him with Hamilton are less because of potential issues between the two (although I do maintain my point that in a direct fight for the WDC between the two, I think it would very quickly become very difficult to manage) and more because of his/Jos' willingness to be very critical when things aren't going right. If you've already got Lewis Hamilton in your lineup, is it worth signing Max and adding that extra hassle, the extra micromanagement he requires, etc.? You wouldn't get that by sticking with Bottas, nor are you likely to get that with Ricciardo.

And while I do agree that Alonso needs to have a teammate that won't threaten him, I'm not sure if I agree that the same goes for Lewis. On one hand, things got really bad between him and Nico, but at the same time I feel like he'd still welcome having any of Vettel/Alonso/Ricciardo/Verstappen as his teammate because he does seem to welcome that competition. I'd certainly say Seb is another guy who wouldn't want a teammate who can threaten him, although as I said in the Seb/#2s thread, I believe that's more because he wants to enhance his own chances of being successful than because he has any particular fear a strong teammate would beat him. The same goes for Alonso, really. Ricciardo strikes me as the kind of guy who wouldn't care who his teammate is, as long as they had a good working relationship, which is why I think he could work alongside Lewis.

That said, I completely agree that if Mercedes can be successful with a Hamilton/Bottas partnership then they don't need to go changing that. Especially if they continue to only be challenged by one team, and that team continues to adopt a strategy whereby one of their drivers is scoring a much lower percentage of points.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:56 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
We know that Bottas and Mercedes are in negotiations at the moment, Wolff called Bottas a tough negotiator. It seems it's the contract length that's the problem, Mercedes only want to give Bottas a 1 year contract whilst Bottas wants longer probably 2 years.

For Mercedes the reason for this is that they want to keep their options open for 2019 between Bottas, Ocon, Ricciardo and Verstappen, Ocon and Ricciardo will be out of contract whilst Verstappen has an exit clause.

Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

These are the rumours circulating around.


Personally, I don't buy into the rumour that Verstappen's contract has a release clause. Given Red Bull gave him a contract that meant he had an F1 seat less than a year after signing it, and then supposedly a move to their senior team guaranteed by no later than the start of his third year in F1, I find it very, very difficult to imagine that it would also contain an exit clause. It just makes no sense, especially as it wasn't like Mercedes (or any other team that might've been interested) were willing to offer him such a fast route into F1.

Further to that, I actually hope he doesn't have such a clause. It wouldn't hurt him/his dad to show a little more loyalty/appreciation to Red Bull for actually giving him the opportunities he has had so far.

@jenson understeer i agree i dont think his contract has a release clause. didnt horner shoot that theory down already.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:56 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.

Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?


Each 'top' driver is a different set of circumstances, though. You can write off a Hamilton/Alonso partnership at Mercedes, and most probably a Hamilton/Vettel one, too. Would Max Verstappen fit alongside Lewis? I don't think so. He's phenomenally talented on the track and has age on his side, but he/his father are developing a nasty habit of throwing their toys out the pram a little, and it does feel (at least to me) that if it were Hamilton vs. Verstappen for the WDC, you've got a lot of potential for it to combust.

Daniel Ricciardo, on the other hand, is potentially available at the end of next year, would be a clear upgrade on Bottas and has co-existed with his teammates to date. Of course, that hasn't been under the pressure of a situation where he and his teammate are in direct competition for the WDC, but of the four 'top' drivers he seems like the one who would cause the least issues alongside Lewis. Certainly, if I were making that decision and Ricciardo was available, I'd have no qualms about pairing those two, and would be a lot more confident in the mood remaining positive than I would with Hamilton alongside Vettel/Alonso/Verstappen.

I broadly agree, except that I'd say the drivers who are most likely to have issues with competitive team mates would be Hamilton and Alonso only. So far I haven't seen Verstappen having notable issues with Ricciardo (well, none that immediately spring to mind), while Vettel seemed to take his beating by Ricciardo fairly equanimously. I know Max and Sainz famously didn't get on, but not entirely sure who was the originator there.

I think both Alonso and Hamilton need to have team mates who don't threaten them, while the others haven't really shown that to be the case (although that said a case could be made for Verstappen because of his relationship with Sainz). So I don't see a partnership between Alonso and Hamilton working, but one of the other three with them might work, although I still think it would be a headache. Mercedes seem far better off sticking with a Hamilton/Bottas scenario, where Bottas is clearly inferior and apparently apolitical, while still being quick enough to steal points off competitors. Kimi fits the first two criteria at Ferrari, for example, but he's not consistently doing the the latter point. The only probable issue with that scenario, of course, is succession planning...

Alonso and Hamilton have gone up against a superior line-up of drivers than the others. Massa and Kimi are the only drivers on the grid to have gone up against an even better line-up of drivers

And at this moment in time Alonso would team up with anybody if it put him in a race winning car

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:25 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.

Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?


Each 'top' driver is a different set of circumstances, though. You can write off a Hamilton/Alonso partnership at Mercedes, and most probably a Hamilton/Vettel one, too. Would Max Verstappen fit alongside Lewis? I don't think so. He's phenomenally talented on the track and has age on his side, but he/his father are developing a nasty habit of throwing their toys out the pram a little, and it does feel (at least to me) that if it were Hamilton vs. Verstappen for the WDC, you've got a lot of potential for it to combust.

Daniel Ricciardo, on the other hand, is potentially available at the end of next year, would be a clear upgrade on Bottas and has co-existed with his teammates to date. Of course, that hasn't been under the pressure of a situation where he and his teammate are in direct competition for the WDC, but of the four 'top' drivers he seems like the one who would cause the least issues alongside Lewis. Certainly, if I were making that decision and Ricciardo was available, I'd have no qualms about pairing those two, and would be a lot more confident in the mood remaining positive than I would with Hamilton alongside Vettel/Alonso/Verstappen.

I broadly agree, except that I'd say the drivers who are most likely to have issues with competitive team mates would be Hamilton and Alonso only. So far I haven't seen Verstappen having notable issues with Ricciardo (well, none that immediately spring to mind), while Vettel seemed to take his beating by Ricciardo fairly equanimously. I know Max and Sainz famously didn't get on, but not entirely sure who was the originator there.

I think both Alonso and Hamilton need to have team mates who don't threaten them, while the others haven't really shown that to be the case (although that said a case could be made for Verstappen because of his relationship with Sainz). So I don't see a partnership between Alonso and Hamilton working, but one of the other three with them might work, although I still think it would be a headache. Mercedes seem far better off sticking with a Hamilton/Bottas scenario, where Bottas is clearly inferior and apparently apolitical, while still being quick enough to steal points off competitors. Kimi fits the first two criteria at Ferrari, for example, but he's not consistently doing the the latter point. The only probable issue with that scenario, of course, is succession planning...

Alonso and Hamilton have gone up against a superior line-up of drivers than the others. Massa and Kimi are the only drivers on the grid to have gone up against an even better line-up of drivers

And at this moment in time Alonso would team up with anybody if it put him in a race winning car

Agreed, but I'm not talking about whether the driver would want to, more whether it would be a management headache for a team if they do


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?


Each 'top' driver is a different set of circumstances, though. You can write off a Hamilton/Alonso partnership at Mercedes, and most probably a Hamilton/Vettel one, too. Would Max Verstappen fit alongside Lewis? I don't think so. He's phenomenally talented on the track and has age on his side, but he/his father are developing a nasty habit of throwing their toys out the pram a little, and it does feel (at least to me) that if it were Hamilton vs. Verstappen for the WDC, you've got a lot of potential for it to combust.

Daniel Ricciardo, on the other hand, is potentially available at the end of next year, would be a clear upgrade on Bottas and has co-existed with his teammates to date. Of course, that hasn't been under the pressure of a situation where he and his teammate are in direct competition for the WDC, but of the four 'top' drivers he seems like the one who would cause the least issues alongside Lewis. Certainly, if I were making that decision and Ricciardo was available, I'd have no qualms about pairing those two, and would be a lot more confident in the mood remaining positive than I would with Hamilton alongside Vettel/Alonso/Verstappen.

I broadly agree, except that I'd say the drivers who are most likely to have issues with competitive team mates would be Hamilton and Alonso only. So far I haven't seen Verstappen having notable issues with Ricciardo (well, none that immediately spring to mind), while Vettel seemed to take his beating by Ricciardo fairly equanimously. I know Max and Sainz famously didn't get on, but not entirely sure who was the originator there.

I think both Alonso and Hamilton need to have team mates who don't threaten them, while the others haven't really shown that to be the case (although that said a case could be made for Verstappen because of his relationship with Sainz). So I don't see a partnership between Alonso and Hamilton working, but one of the other three with them might work, although I still think it would be a headache. Mercedes seem far better off sticking with a Hamilton/Bottas scenario, where Bottas is clearly inferior and apparently apolitical, while still being quick enough to steal points off competitors. Kimi fits the first two criteria at Ferrari, for example, but he's not consistently doing the the latter point. The only probable issue with that scenario, of course, is succession planning...

Alonso and Hamilton have gone up against a superior line-up of drivers than the others. Massa and Kimi are the only drivers on the grid to have gone up against an even better line-up of drivers

And at this moment in time Alonso would team up with anybody if it put him in a race winning car

Agreed, but I'm not talking about whether the driver would want to, more whether it would be a management headache for a team if they do

Oh right that's a different story. I think I'd be inclined to agree with that

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.

Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?


Each 'top' driver is a different set of circumstances, though. You can write off a Hamilton/Alonso partnership at Mercedes, and most probably a Hamilton/Vettel one, too. Would Max Verstappen fit alongside Lewis? I don't think so. He's phenomenally talented on the track and has age on his side, but he/his father are developing a nasty habit of throwing their toys out the pram a little, and it does feel (at least to me) that if it were Hamilton vs. Verstappen for the WDC, you've got a lot of potential for it to combust.

Daniel Ricciardo, on the other hand, is potentially available at the end of next year, would be a clear upgrade on Bottas and has co-existed with his teammates to date. Of course, that hasn't been under the pressure of a situation where he and his teammate are in direct competition for the WDC, but of the four 'top' drivers he seems like the one who would cause the least issues alongside Lewis. Certainly, if I were making that decision and Ricciardo was available, I'd have no qualms about pairing those two, and would be a lot more confident in the mood remaining positive than I would with Hamilton alongside Vettel/Alonso/Verstappen.

I see you have been taken in by Ricciardo's smile.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:32 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jos Verstappen has been in talks with Mercedes, the problem for Verstappen is that his exit clause is that Red Bull have to finish lower than 3rd in the WCC which is unlikely to happen so the Verstappen's are trying to renegotiate their exit clause to Verstappen can leave if he finishes lower than 3rd in the WDC, but I fail to see why Red Bull would agree to that?

They'd be stupid to agree to that. Max doesn't have many bargaining chips anymore, and he'll lose all the remaining ones as soon as Bottas re-signs.

He should try talking to Alonso about all those top seats he can get into. 8)

That's if Bottas gets a 2 year contract?

I doubt they'd want to sign him to a rolling 1-yr contract, honestly. That would put them with both of their drivers potentially out of contract after next year, and teams don't like doing that.

Personally, considering that Bottas is Toto's driver and they're doing just fine with him being unable to challenge Hamilton, I expect something longer.

Hamilton has already informed Mercedes that he wants to extend his contract and they are going to sort it out over the winter.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1Oz wrote:
Surely Bottas would prefer to have a seat at Mercedes (even if for one year) and has that year to prove he should get an extension.

But Mercedes will also want top drivers if they can get them - and with the best car - they hold the cards.

Mercedes already has a top driver, one who is believed to be interested in a new contract after 2018. They've shown previously that they're not interested in putting another top driver alongside Lewis, so why would they mess with what's already working?


Each 'top' driver is a different set of circumstances, though. You can write off a Hamilton/Alonso partnership at Mercedes, and most probably a Hamilton/Vettel one, too. Would Max Verstappen fit alongside Lewis? I don't think so. He's phenomenally talented on the track and has age on his side, but he/his father are developing a nasty habit of throwing their toys out the pram a little, and it does feel (at least to me) that if it were Hamilton vs. Verstappen for the WDC, you've got a lot of potential for it to combust.

Daniel Ricciardo, on the other hand, is potentially available at the end of next year, would be a clear upgrade on Bottas and has co-existed with his teammates to date. Of course, that hasn't been under the pressure of a situation where he and his teammate are in direct competition for the WDC, but of the four 'top' drivers he seems like the one who would cause the least issues alongside Lewis. Certainly, if I were making that decision and Ricciardo was available, I'd have no qualms about pairing those two, and would be a lot more confident in the mood remaining positive than I would with Hamilton alongside Vettel/Alonso/Verstappen.

I broadly agree, except that I'd say the drivers who are most likely to have issues with competitive team mates would be Hamilton and Alonso only. So far I haven't seen Verstappen having notable issues with Ricciardo (well, none that immediately spring to mind), while Vettel seemed to take his beating by Ricciardo fairly equanimously. I know Max and Sainz famously didn't get on, but not entirely sure who was the originator there.

I think both Alonso and Hamilton need to have team mates who don't threaten them, while the others haven't really shown that to be the case (although that said a case could be made for Verstappen because of his relationship with Sainz). So I don't see a partnership between Alonso and Hamilton working, but one of the other three with them might work, although I still think it would be a headache. Mercedes seem far better off sticking with a Hamilton/Bottas scenario, where Bottas is clearly inferior and apparently apolitical, while still being quick enough to steal points off competitors. Kimi fits the first two criteria at Ferrari, for example, but he's not consistently doing the the latter point. The only probable issue with that scenario, of course, is succession planning...

I think dymanics can change with drivers depending upon what's at stake as in if a WDC is on the line, driver line ups that look reasonably cosy now might not be the same under the pressure of a title fight.

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