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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:59 am 
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Zoue wrote:
well, if there was any doubt about whether Alonso could go to Mercedes, this should clear things up:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-alonso-relationship-was-toxic/

I'm sure that previously Hamilton and Alonso had been at pains to say they never had any problems with each other, but this pretty much says the complete opposite. So don't see the two of them pairing up soon, then!


I don't think Alonso to Mercedes is in anyway likely but the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship was just about the most toxic we have ever seen and Mercedes were still happy to resign Rosberg for 2017 and beyond in full knowledge of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:11 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well, if there was any doubt about whether Alonso could go to Mercedes, this should clear things up:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-alonso-relationship-was-toxic/

I'm sure that previously Hamilton and Alonso had been at pains to say they never had any problems with each other, but this pretty much says the complete opposite. So don't see the two of them pairing up soon, then!


I don't think Alonso to Mercedes is in anyway likely but the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship was just about the most toxic we have ever seen and Mercedes were still happy to resign Rosberg for 2017 and beyond in full knowledge of that.

True, but I think it's different when extending contracts than it is when bringing someone in completely new who you know will bring fireworks with him.

I suspect if e.g. Hamilton had said to Mercedes: "I don't want you to extend Rosberg," they probably would have told him where to go. But if he says "I'd rather you didn't sign xxx," then I'm guessing they would be far more likely to want to accommodate him.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:17 am 
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So what is a list of available drivers for 2018?

Vettel
Alonso
Bottas
Perez

Who else?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:20 am 
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Actually, the only drivers with contracts so far are:

Ocon FI
Hamilton Merc
Magnussen HAAS
Ricciardo RBR
Verstappen RBR
Hulkenberg Renault

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:43 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Actually, the only drivers with contracts so far are:

Ocon FI
Hamilton Merc
Magnussen HAAS
Ricciardo RBR
Verstappen RBR
Hulkenberg Renault


I'm sure Stroll and Vandoorne were signed on multi year deals.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:37 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

A GP2 win would put Leclerc ahead. His junior career is far better.

He is clearly ahead in the Ferrari pecking order, he is the reserve driver and he is also to be given several FP1 sessions with Haas, why bother doing this is if Leclerc is in the Ferrari driving seat?


Because they have to have a scenario if Leclerc falters. If he succeeds, I have no doubt he will soon surpass Giovinazzi in the pecking order.

Ocon was behind Wehrlein too. Are you confident he still is?

What if Giovinazzi succeeds in the FP1 sessions?


Wehrlein seems to have convinced Mercedes he's a good tester.
Are you convinced Wehrlein is still ahead of Ocon?

Suppose Leclerc wins F2 this year, what more does he need to do to be ready for F1? And how much better is his resume compared to Giovinazzi? Do you think Ferrari wants to risk losing him, just about the best prospect they've had in many years?

Ocon has the advantage of being in a better car than Wehrlein and as impressive as Ocon as been he has finished behind Perez in every qualifying and every race.

Meanwhile Giovinazzi has the advantage over Leclerc of regular FP1 sessions in which he can impress, unfortunately recent years has shown being a GP2/F2 Champion doesn't really guarantee that, Palmer and Vandoorne being examples, and nobody is running after Gasly because he won the title either, lack of success when the Champions have moved up doesn't help Leclerc here and I doubt you will see a F1 team offering Ferrari money to buy him out of his contract.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well, if there was any doubt about whether Alonso could go to Mercedes, this should clear things up:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-alonso-relationship-was-toxic/

I'm sure that previously Hamilton and Alonso had been at pains to say they never had any problems with each other, but this pretty much says the complete opposite. So don't see the two of them pairing up soon, then!


I don't think Alonso to Mercedes is in anyway likely but the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship was just about the most toxic we have ever seen and Mercedes were still happy to resign Rosberg for 2017 and beyond in full knowledge of that.

They actually only offered Rosberg a 1 year contract but Hamilton threatened to quit after the collision with Rosberg in Barcelona so thought it better to offer Rosberg a longer contract but it was Rosberg himself that quit, crazy stuff.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well, if there was any doubt about whether Alonso could go to Mercedes, this should clear things up:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-alonso-relationship-was-toxic/

I'm sure that previously Hamilton and Alonso had been at pains to say they never had any problems with each other, but this pretty much says the complete opposite. So don't see the two of them pairing up soon, then!


I don't think Alonso to Mercedes is in anyway likely but the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship was just about the most toxic we have ever seen and Mercedes were still happy to resign Rosberg for 2017 and beyond in full knowledge of that.

True, but I think it's different when extending contracts than it is when bringing someone in completely new who you know will bring fireworks with him.

I suspect if e.g. Hamilton had said to Mercedes: "I don't want you to extend Rosberg," they probably would have told him where to go. But if he says "I'd rather you didn't sign xxx," then I'm guessing they would be far more likely to want to accommodate him.

Initially Rosberg was on his way out for 2018 so Mercedes were in fact looking to change the line up.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:46 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
So what is a list of available drivers for 2018?

Vettel
Alonso
Bottas
Perez

Who else?

Kimi.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Posts: 26883
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Actually, the only drivers with contracts so far are:

Ocon FI
Hamilton Merc
Magnussen HAAS
Ricciardo RBR
Verstappen RBR
Hulkenberg Renault

I wonder if Haas will keep Grosjean?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Actually, the only drivers with contracts so far are:

Ocon FI
Hamilton Merc
Magnussen HAAS
Ricciardo RBR
Verstappen RBR
Hulkenberg Renault


I'm sure Stroll and Vandoorne were signed on multi year deals.

Yep.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:51 pm 
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The obvious Silly Season question. Red Bull offer Vettel more money than Ferrari, would he go back?


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
The obvious Silly Season question. Red Bull offer Vettel more money than Ferrari, would he go back?

No and if Alonso can't get a drive with them why would Red Bull be looking at Vettel, I think they are quite happy with the drivers they have.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Actually, the only drivers with contracts so far are:

Ocon FI
Hamilton Merc
Magnussen HAAS
Ricciardo RBR
Verstappen RBR
Hulkenberg Renault

Redbull have options on Sainz Jr. until 2019 I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Posts: 147
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Actually, the only drivers with contracts so far are:

Ocon FI
Hamilton Merc
Magnussen HAAS
Ricciardo RBR
Verstappen RBR
Hulkenberg Renault

Redbull have options on Sainz Jr. until 2019 I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He is clearly ahead in the Ferrari pecking order, he is the reserve driver and he is also to be given several FP1 sessions with Haas, why bother doing this is if Leclerc is in the Ferrari driving seat?


Because they have to have a scenario if Leclerc falters. If he succeeds, I have no doubt he will soon surpass Giovinazzi in the pecking order.

Ocon was behind Wehrlein too. Are you confident he still is?

What if Giovinazzi succeeds in the FP1 sessions?


Wehrlein seems to have convinced Mercedes he's a good tester.
Are you convinced Wehrlein is still ahead of Ocon?

Suppose Leclerc wins F2 this year, what more does he need to do to be ready for F1? And how much better is his resume compared to Giovinazzi? Do you think Ferrari wants to risk losing him, just about the best prospect they've had in many years?

Ocon has the advantage of being in a better car than Wehrlein and as impressive as Ocon as been he has finished behind Perez in every qualifying and every race.

Meanwhile Giovinazzi has the advantage over Leclerc of regular FP1 sessions in which he can impress, unfortunately recent years has shown being a GP2/F2 Champion doesn't really guarantee that, Palmer and Vandoorne being examples, and nobody is running after Gasly because he won the title either, lack of success when the Champions have moved up doesn't help Leclerc here and I doubt you will see a F1 team offering Ferrari money to buy him out of his contract.


You dodged a question there. Simple yes or no?

And it's quite a jump you're making from "not all F2 champions succeed in F1" to "huge talent in the feeder series isn't highly sought after".

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:11 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Because they have to have a scenario if Leclerc falters. If he succeeds, I have no doubt he will soon surpass Giovinazzi in the pecking order.

Ocon was behind Wehrlein too. Are you confident he still is?

What if Giovinazzi succeeds in the FP1 sessions?


Wehrlein seems to have convinced Mercedes he's a good tester.
Are you convinced Wehrlein is still ahead of Ocon?

Suppose Leclerc wins F2 this year, what more does he need to do to be ready for F1? And how much better is his resume compared to Giovinazzi? Do you think Ferrari wants to risk losing him, just about the best prospect they've had in many years?

Ocon has the advantage of being in a better car than Wehrlein and as impressive as Ocon as been he has finished behind Perez in every qualifying and every race.

Meanwhile Giovinazzi has the advantage over Leclerc of regular FP1 sessions in which he can impress, unfortunately recent years has shown being a GP2/F2 Champion doesn't really guarantee that, Palmer and Vandoorne being examples, and nobody is running after Gasly because he won the title either, lack of success when the Champions have moved up doesn't help Leclerc here and I doubt you will see a F1 team offering Ferrari money to buy him out of his contract.


You dodged a question there. Simple yes or no?

And it's quite a jump you're making from "not all F2 champions succeed in F1" to "huge talent in the feeder series isn't highly sought after".

I didn't dodge anything, Ocon is in a better position because he's in a better car whilst Giovinazzi is in a better position because he has a Haas FP1 contract in his pocket unlike Leclerc.

Vandoorne was also a big talent, bigger than Leclerc, but he was under contract to McLaren and had to sit out F1 for a year much like Leclerc has a contract with Ferrari and it's for Ferrari to decide and not Leclerc.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I didn't dodge anything, Ocon is in a better position because he's in a better car whilst Giovinazzi is in a better position because he has a Haas FP1 contract in his pocket unlike Leclerc.

Vandoorne was also a big talent, bigger than Leclerc, but he was under contract to McLaren and had to sit out F1 for a year much like Leclerc has a contract with Ferrari and it's for Ferrari to decide and not Leclerc.


This time last year Wehrlein was in a better position. Things change.

Vandoorne couldn't win his debut GP2 season. Leclerc could well do.

If Leclerc wins F2 this year nobody is going to go for Giovinazzi over him.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:32 pm 
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I would like to see Wehrlein and Ocon getting some hot seats. They both made statements this year with their excellent drives; Pascal in Bahrein and Barcelona and Ocon in Canada.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:31 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I didn't dodge anything, Ocon is in a better position because he's in a better car whilst Giovinazzi is in a better position because he has a Haas FP1 contract in his pocket unlike Leclerc.

Vandoorne was also a big talent, bigger than Leclerc, but he was under contract to McLaren and had to sit out F1 for a year much like Leclerc has a contract with Ferrari and it's for Ferrari to decide and not Leclerc.


This time last year Wehrlein was in a better position. Things change.

Vandoorne couldn't win his debut GP2 season. Leclerc could well do.

If Leclerc wins F2 this year nobody is going to go for Giovinazzi over him.

Vandoorne had more experienced drivers to beat than Leclerc, also he was in a team that had not won the title for years, Leclerc is in the very best team, Prema dominated last year with their drivers finishing 1-2.

I can't see the point in Ferrari negotiating with Haas to give Giovinazzi FP1 sessions if they have no real plans for him, this was done quite recently and in spite of Leclerc leading the F2 series.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:33 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
I would like to see Wehrlein and Ocon getting some hot seats. They both made statements this year with their excellent drives; Pascal in Bahrein and Barcelona and Ocon in Canada.

If Perez goes to either Ferrari or Renault I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ocon and Wehrlein paired at Force India.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:57 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I would like to see Wehrlein and Ocon getting some hot seats. They both made statements this year with their excellent drives; Pascal in Bahrein and Barcelona and Ocon in Canada.

If Perez goes to either Ferrari or Renault I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ocon and Wehrlein paired at Force India.


Wouldn't two near rookies make their line-up wanting for some experience?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:06 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I would like to see Wehrlein and Ocon getting some hot seats. They both made statements this year with their excellent drives; Pascal in Bahrein and Barcelona and Ocon in Canada.

If Perez goes to either Ferrari or Renault I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ocon and Wehrlein paired at Force India.


Wouldn't two near rookies make their line-up wanting for some experience?


Wehrlein won't really be a bear rookie. He would be in his third season.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:11 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I would like to see Wehrlein and Ocon getting some hot seats. They both made statements this year with their excellent drives; Pascal in Bahrein and Barcelona and Ocon in Canada.

If Perez goes to either Ferrari or Renault I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ocon and Wehrlein paired at Force India.


Wouldn't two near rookies make their line-up wanting for some experience?


Wehrlein won't really be a bear rookie. He would be in his third season.


I'm quite sure Force India wouldn't take him as he was snubbed over Ocon. Many team personnel were not pleased with their experience when he had tested for the team earlier.

Wonder if they would look towards Grosjean instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:24 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I would like to see Wehrlein and Ocon getting some hot seats. They both made statements this year with their excellent drives; Pascal in Bahrein and Barcelona and Ocon in Canada.

If Perez goes to either Ferrari or Renault I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ocon and Wehrlein paired at Force India.


Wouldn't two near rookies make their line-up wanting for some experience?


Wehrlein won't really be a bear rookie. He would be in his third season.


I'm quite sure Force India wouldn't take him as he was snubbed over Ocon. Many team personnel were not pleased with their experience when he had tested for the team earlier.

Wonder if they would look towards Grosjean instead.


I am sure they will try for Grosjean but Willaims may beat them to that one.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I didn't dodge anything, Ocon is in a better position because he's in a better car whilst Giovinazzi is in a better position because he has a Haas FP1 contract in his pocket unlike Leclerc.


OK, so you agree Ocon is in a better position, despite Wehrlein still being designated test driver for Mercedes and having had much more experience with the team.
Weird enough, one year ago Ocon was nowhere and Wehrlein was a contracted F1 driver. And at the end of last year they knowingly put Ocon in a better car. Weird, right? The driver that was arguably in the lesser position was given the better seat.

And now we get to the point: Leclerc is also in the lesser position NOW. But why are you so hell-bent on denying that he could get priority if he keeps on performing like he has done for the past few years?

Quote:
I can't see the point in Ferrari negotiating with Haas to give Giovinazzi FP1 sessions if they have no real plans for him, this was done quite recently and in spite of Leclerc leading the F2 series.


Betting on two horses, what's so weird about that?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I would like to see Wehrlein and Ocon getting some hot seats. They both made statements this year with their excellent drives; Pascal in Bahrein and Barcelona and Ocon in Canada.

If Perez goes to either Ferrari or Renault I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ocon and Wehrlein paired at Force India.


Wouldn't two near rookies make their line-up wanting for some experience?


Wehrlein won't really be a bear rookie. He would be in his third season.

Indeed and Ocon has done well thus far, not too far away from Perez in performance, given his inexperience he can only get better.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:27 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I would like to see Wehrlein and Ocon getting some hot seats. They both made statements this year with their excellent drives; Pascal in Bahrein and Barcelona and Ocon in Canada.

If Perez goes to either Ferrari or Renault I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ocon and Wehrlein paired at Force India.


Wouldn't two near rookies make their line-up wanting for some experience?


Wehrlein won't really be a bear rookie. He would be in his third season.


I'm quite sure Force India wouldn't take him as he was snubbed over Ocon. Many team personnel were not pleased with their experience when he had tested for the team earlier.

Wonder if they would look towards Grosjean instead.

They had the choice of one or the other not both were they said we can't work with him so we will just take the one.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If Perez goes to either Ferrari or Renault I wouldn't be too surprised to see Ocon and Wehrlein paired at Force India.


Wouldn't two near rookies make their line-up wanting for some experience?


Wehrlein won't really be a bear rookie. He would be in his third season.


I'm quite sure Force India wouldn't take him as he was snubbed over Ocon. Many team personnel were not pleased with their experience when he had tested for the team earlier.

Wonder if they would look towards Grosjean instead.


I am sure they will try for Grosjean but Willaims may beat them to that one.

A lot of love for Grosjean.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:43 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I didn't dodge anything, Ocon is in a better position because he's in a better car whilst Giovinazzi is in a better position because he has a Haas FP1 contract in his pocket unlike Leclerc.


OK, so you agree Ocon is in a better position, despite Wehrlein still being designated test driver for Mercedes and having had much more experience with the team.
Weird enough, one year ago Ocon was nowhere and Wehrlein was a contracted F1 driver. And at the end of last year they knowingly put Ocon in a better car. Weird, right? The driver that was arguably in the lesser position was given the better seat.

And now we get to the point: Leclerc is also in the lesser position NOW. But why are you so hell-bent on denying that he could get priority if he keeps on performing like he has done for the past few years?

Quote:
I can't see the point in Ferrari negotiating with Haas to give Giovinazzi FP1 sessions if they have no real plans for him, this was done quite recently and in spite of Leclerc leading the F2 series.


Betting on two horses, what's so weird about that?

At this moment Ocon is in a better position and Giovinazzi is in a better position, going back one season is not really relevant, also Mercedes did not choose Ocon over Wehrlein that was the choice of Force India, I think in Mercedes' own eyes both drivers would still be on a level playing field?

In regards to Leclerc he was doing FP1 sessions for Haas last season and the impression I got was that they were not overly impressed, talk of him having a seat for this season was somewhat brushed aside with I believe them saying that they choose their own race drivers and not Ferrari, so that might be a sort of similar situation with Wehrlein and Force India?

Giovinazzi like Ocon came into the junior program later than both Wehrlein and Leclerc and both have now sort of jumped the queue, Giovinazzi has basically taken the Haas FP1 sessions from Leclerc.

Saying that Ferrari are betting on two horses seems to be a bit of a change in your stance were before you said that Leclerc had the upper hand?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
.
A lot of love for Grosjean.


I actually don't rate Grosjean but if Kimi and Massa are not in the fold for next year there are not that many available experienced drivers gettable for a team like Williams.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:33 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
.
A lot of love for Grosjean.


I actually don't rate Grosjean but if Kimi and Massa are not in the fold for next year there are not that many available experienced drivers gettable for a team like Williams.

I could actually see Massa being at Williams for next year, he has been quite solid this year plus part of his job is to mentor Stroll, I don't quite see such an up and down driver as Grosjean being a great mentor?

Regarding Kimi his performance is perhaps not quite good enough but he causes no problems with Vettel which I believe is quite important to both Ferrari and Vettel, once again Grosjean is prone to whinge quite a lot and let's not forget he was teammates with Kimi at Lotus so maybe it's hard to see him as a step up for Ferrari?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:35 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well, if there was any doubt about whether Alonso could go to Mercedes, this should clear things up:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-alonso-relationship-was-toxic/

I'm sure that previously Hamilton and Alonso had been at pains to say they never had any problems with each other, but this pretty much says the complete opposite. So don't see the two of them pairing up soon, then!


I don't think Alonso to Mercedes is in anyway likely but the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship was just about the most toxic we have ever seen and Mercedes were still happy to resign Rosberg for 2017 and beyond in full knowledge of that.

True, but I think it's different when extending contracts than it is when bringing someone in completely new who you know will bring fireworks with him.

I suspect if e.g. Hamilton had said to Mercedes: "I don't want you to extend Rosberg," they probably would have told him where to go. But if he says "I'd rather you didn't sign xxx," then I'm guessing they would be far more likely to want to accommodate him.


I suspect you may be right although logically there is no sense in that decision making at all :lol:

Re sign someone you know will cause a toxic relationship in the team Vs Sign someone new who might.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:38 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
.
A lot of love for Grosjean.


I actually don't rate Grosjean but if Kimi and Massa are not in the fold for next year there are not that many available experienced drivers gettable for a team like Williams.

I could actually see Massa being at Williams for next year, he has been quite solid this year plus part of his job is to mentor Stroll, I don't quite see such an up and down driver as Grosjean being a great mentor?

Regarding Kimi his performance is perhaps not quite good enough but he causes no problems with Vettel which I believe is quite important to both Ferrari and Vettel, once again Grosjean is prone to whinge quite a lot and let's not forget he was teammates with Kimi at Lotus so maybe it's hard to see him as a step up for Ferrari?


Grosjean won't be going to Ferrari. I would be amazed if they viewed him as good enough.

I think Williams will take the view that if they keep Stroll they need a better number 1 than Massa. I think they might roll the dice with Grosjean and hope he is.

Grosjean may well be the best, experienced signable driver for a midfield team this silly season.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:40 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well, if there was any doubt about whether Alonso could go to Mercedes, this should clear things up:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-alonso-relationship-was-toxic/

I'm sure that previously Hamilton and Alonso had been at pains to say they never had any problems with each other, but this pretty much says the complete opposite. So don't see the two of them pairing up soon, then!


I don't think Alonso to Mercedes is in anyway likely but the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship was just about the most toxic we have ever seen and Mercedes were still happy to resign Rosberg for 2017 and beyond in full knowledge of that.

True, but I think it's different when extending contracts than it is when bringing someone in completely new who you know will bring fireworks with him.

I suspect if e.g. Hamilton had said to Mercedes: "I don't want you to extend Rosberg," they probably would have told him where to go. But if he says "I'd rather you didn't sign xxx," then I'm guessing they would be far more likely to want to accommodate him.


I suspect you may be right although logically there is no sense in that decision making at all :lol:

Re sign someone you know will cause a toxic relationship in the team Vs Sign someone new who might.

well, to be fair toxic relationship wasn't exclusively Rosberg's preserve. I think it's extremely debatable who caused the toxic relationship. Mercerdes claimed equal treatment so why favour Hamilton over Rosberg in that scenario? And we already know that Hamilton and Rosberg would be a management migraine to handle


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
At this moment Ocon is in a better position and Giovinazzi is in a better position, going back one season is not really relevant


Of course it is, as it highlights how quickly things can change. I am adamant, 100% convinced that Ferrari think of Leclerc as the better prospect for the future. In that sense the question is not if he will overtake Giovinazzi, but when (supposing he doesn't suddenly starts disappointing).

Quote:
also Mercedes did not choose Ocon over Wehrlein that was the choice of Force India, I think in Mercedes' own eyes both drivers would still be on a level playing field?


Is there any proof of this being FI's decision?
If it isn't, then it's clear who is favoured by Mercedes.
If it is, then it's not proof of who is favoured.

Quote:
Giovinazzi like Ocon came into the junior program later than both Wehrlein and Leclerc and both have now sort of jumped the queue, Giovinazzi has basically taken the Haas FP1 sessions from Leclerc.


Giovinazzi might have entered later but he had proceeded further in his single seater career, being a bit older as well. So it's normal he would arrive in F1 first.
Now, about Giovinazzi doing FP1 sessions: one would also have to consider the programme of both drivers this year. Leclerc is doing F2 and going for the title, while Giovinazzi is not racing at all. If Ferrari is half serious about Gio as well, they would want to keep him in touch with actual race cars.

Quote:
Saying that Ferrari are betting on two horses seems to be a bit of a change in your stance were before you said that Leclerc had the upper hand?


Aside from the fact I never said that, those two things are not mutually exclusive.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well, if there was any doubt about whether Alonso could go to Mercedes, this should clear things up:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-alonso-relationship-was-toxic/

I'm sure that previously Hamilton and Alonso had been at pains to say they never had any problems with each other, but this pretty much says the complete opposite. So don't see the two of them pairing up soon, then!


I don't think Alonso to Mercedes is in anyway likely but the Rosberg/Hamilton relationship was just about the most toxic we have ever seen and Mercedes were still happy to resign Rosberg for 2017 and beyond in full knowledge of that.

True, but I think it's different when extending contracts than it is when bringing someone in completely new who you know will bring fireworks with him.

I suspect if e.g. Hamilton had said to Mercedes: "I don't want you to extend Rosberg," they probably would have told him where to go. But if he says "I'd rather you didn't sign xxx," then I'm guessing they would be far more likely to want to accommodate him.


I suspect you may be right although logically there is no sense in that decision making at all :lol:

Re sign someone you know will cause a toxic relationship in the team Vs Sign someone new who might.

well, to be fair toxic relationship wasn't exclusively Rosberg's preserve. I think it's extremely debatable who caused the toxic relationship. Mercerdes claimed equal treatment so why favour Hamilton over Rosberg in that scenario? And we already know that Hamilton and Rosberg would be a management migraine to handle


Purely and simply because it was Rosberg's contract up for renewal and not Hamilton's. The option to not resign Hamilton last year wasn't there because he was already signed. If he wasn't the same argument would apply.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:27 am 
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Mercedes: Hamilton and Bottas
I don't see them going for Alonso, as amazing as it would be, so they'll retain their current pairing.

Ferrari: Vettel and Raikkonen/Perez/Sainz
I've given up trying to predict whether Ferrari will retain Kimi or not. If they do drop him, I maintain that Sainz should be the guy they target, but Perez seems the more realistic replacement and has been linked pretty strongly with that seat. Grosjean seems to have faded away from it, but I guess while he remains a Haas driver, he would still be an outside shot. Would be fun to see Alonso back there but I don't see it happening alongside Vettel.

Red Bull: Ricciardo and Verstappen
Self-explanatory, really.

Williams: Massa and Stroll
I wouldn't be shocked to see Williams retain Massa for 2018. Stroll's performance is making him look stronger than he would've appeared had he (Massa) been alongside Bottas, for example, and unless you can bring in a top driver, I think Williams will just stick with what they have.

Force India: Ocon and Perez/Grosjean/Wehrlein
If Perez doesn't leave then I would expect an unchanged line-up, otherwise I'd look at Grosjean as the best replacement, or perhaps Wehrlein if Mercedes really push for such a move.

Toro Rosso: Two from Sainz/Kvyat/Gasly
Their line-up depends on two aspects. Firstly, whether Sainz is still there. If he leaves then retaining Kvyat and promoting Gasly is the logical line-up as I don't believe any other member of their junior team is ready, let alone actually has the Superlicense points to be able to drive in F1 next year. If they can hold onto Sainz then it becomes another straight decision between Kvyat and Gasly.

Haas: Two from Grosjean/Magnussen and Leclerc/Giovinazzi
I fully expect one of the Ferrari juniors to be driving for Haas in 2018, and obviously that would be heavily influenced by which driver Ferrari would prefer them to race. That would leave one seat, which Grosjean is basically a lock to retain unless he leaves, in which case I'd assume Magnussen will be kept on.

Sauber: Two from Wehrlein/Ericsson/Magnussen/Leclerc/Giovinazzi
As often seems to be the case in recent years, I think Sauber's line-up will depend on who is left after the teams above them have filled out their seats. I could see them running the other Ferrari junior driver, or perhaps scooping up Magnussen if he leaves Haas. One guy I would rule out: Matsushita. The Honda deal seems to have linked him to the team but I'm not confident in his ability to finish top-3 in F2, which is what he would need to get the necessary Superlicense points.

Renault: Hulkenberg and one of Perez/Kubica/Alonso/Sainz/Ocon
Unless Hulk makes a surprise move to Ferrari, he's there for 2018. As for the second seat, I would expect Renault will be linked with a number of drivers as it would require a small miracle for Palmer to keep that seat. At this rate he might not even make it to the end of 2017, especially now Kubica is back in the mix on the basis of his recent test and the positivity of the comments being made by the team about his performance. Both current Force India drivers are going to be linked there, as I'm sure will be Carlos Sainz, and it is probably safe to assume Fernando Alonso's name will be mentioned, no matter how realistic such a move actually is.

McLaren: Vandoorne and Alonso
Now that I've got down to McLaren, all I can think is... who the hell would they actually replace Alonso with? And don't say Jenson Button. They'd probably be looking at the likes of Perez/Sainz/Grosjean if they had to replace him, and if they don't split from Honda, that's going to make it an even harder sell...

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:40 am 
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Ferrari are card holders here. Everything hinges on Kimi and Perez. If Kimi leaves then nobody is signing for anyone until his seat is filled. If Kimi stays then where Perez lands will be key.

It's a bizarre scenario that we have the best driver in the sport available but threw a number of factos he's almost less crucial to the market than someone like Perez.

If Ferrari do keep Kimi then I think Perez to Williams may be a goer.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:44 am 
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One question is if Alonso leaves Mclaren then who are they going to replace him? No established tier 1 or tier 2 drivers leap out at me.

Last thing Mclaren is a driver deficit to the top teams on top of everything else.


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