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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed and that would be cherry picking.

No. You are completely wrong on this one I'm afraid

So if Kimi beats Vettel then he also beats Alonso?

I have absolutely no idea how you reach that conclusion.

Because you have already determined that Alonso and Vettel are close to equal.

Actually, I think Alonso is ultimately the better driver. But as far as their records vs Kimi go, they obtained very similar results. What that has to do with you fabricating scenarios with Kimi beating Vettel and therefore Alonso is anybody's guess, however


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
No. You are completely wrong on this one I'm afraid

So if Kimi beats Vettel then he also beats Alonso?

I have absolutely no idea how you reach that conclusion.

Because you have already determined that Alonso and Vettel are close to equal.

Actually, I think Alonso is ultimately the better driver. But as far as their records vs Kimi go, they obtained very similar results. What that has to do with you fabricating scenarios with Kimi beating Vettel and therefore Alonso is anybody's guess, however

It wasn't me that fabricated it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If I compare one year Alonso still did better, this wanting to disregard certain years and second guessing what may have happened in future years is not the way you go about working out such things.

No, he didn't. I don't think you understand how comparisons work

No it works by you deciding which years you chose to pick and ignoring other years, Alosno still did better than Vettel anyway.

No-one is "deciding" anything. Just taking a straightforward comparison between the team mates under as near identical conditions as possible. Which in this case means their first year together. It would be cherry picking if any other year for Vettel was used as a comparison. This is not rocket science

If I merely do that then Alonso is 0.04s quicker than Vettel.

If such things are so defining then Ricciardo is 0.17s quicker than Vettel.

If you consider it defining that's up to you. Those aren't my words. No idea why you are bringing up Ricciardo out of nowhere. Makes a change from Hamilton, I suppose


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So if Kimi beats Vettel then he also beats Alonso?

I have absolutely no idea how you reach that conclusion.

Because you have already determined that Alonso and Vettel are close to equal.

Actually, I think Alonso is ultimately the better driver. But as far as their records vs Kimi go, they obtained very similar results. What that has to do with you fabricating scenarios with Kimi beating Vettel and therefore Alonso is anybody's guess, however

It wasn't me that fabricated it.

er, yes it was


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
No, he didn't. I don't think you understand how comparisons work

No it works by you deciding which years you chose to pick and ignoring other years, Alosno still did better than Vettel anyway.

No-one is "deciding" anything. Just taking a straightforward comparison between the team mates under as near identical conditions as possible. Which in this case means their first year together. It would be cherry picking if any other year for Vettel was used as a comparison. This is not rocket science

If I merely do that then Alonso is 0.04s quicker than Vettel.

If such things are so defining then Ricciardo is 0.17s quicker than Vettel.

If you consider it defining that's up to you. Those aren't my words. No idea why you are bringing up Ricciardo out of nowhere. Makes a change from Hamilton, I suppose

No it's you who seem to be happy at using just 1 years data to decide who is the quicker driver.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I have absolutely no idea how you reach that conclusion.

Because you have already determined that Alonso and Vettel are close to equal.

Actually, I think Alonso is ultimately the better driver. But as far as their records vs Kimi go, they obtained very similar results. What that has to do with you fabricating scenarios with Kimi beating Vettel and therefore Alonso is anybody's guess, however

It wasn't me that fabricated it.

er, yes it was

sandman1347 wrote:
By this rationale, if Kimi had beaten Vettel in the points in 2016 and 2017 you would still conclude that Vettel dominated him by the same margin as Alonso...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No it works by you deciding which years you chose to pick and ignoring other years, Alosno still did better than Vettel anyway.

No-one is "deciding" anything. Just taking a straightforward comparison between the team mates under as near identical conditions as possible. Which in this case means their first year together. It would be cherry picking if any other year for Vettel was used as a comparison. This is not rocket science

If I merely do that then Alonso is 0.04s quicker than Vettel.

If such things are so defining then Ricciardo is 0.17s quicker than Vettel.

If you consider it defining that's up to you. Those aren't my words. No idea why you are bringing up Ricciardo out of nowhere. Makes a change from Hamilton, I suppose

No it's you who seem to be happy at using just 1 years data to decide who is the quicker driver.

You have a very unpalatable habit of trying to put words and conclusions in other people's mouths. It's very disingenuous.

I'm using 1 year's data to compare Alonso and Seb vs Kimi because that's the common denominator in time between them. That's all. It doesn't suddenly make one year a barometer for anything. And the only conclusion I have drawn from that is that they had very similar records against Kimi. I've not made any pronouncements beyond that, although no doubt you'll make some other strawman up that I'll have to defend


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:49 pm 
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The Dan v Max thread has morphed into a Seb v Nando thread and I have no idea how :D

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Actually, I think Alonso is ultimately the better driver. But as far as their records vs Kimi go, they obtained very similar results. What that has to do with you fabricating scenarios with Kimi beating Vettel and therefore Alonso is anybody's guess, however

It wasn't me that fabricated it.

er, yes it was

sandman1347 wrote:
By this rationale, if Kimi had beaten Vettel in the points in 2016 and 2017 you would still conclude that Vettel dominated him by the same margin as Alonso...

pokerman wrote:
So if Kimi beats Vettel then he also beats Alonso?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:30 pm 
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mds wrote:
The Dan v Max thread has morphed into a Seb v Nando thread and I have no idea how :D

Yeah sometimes you can forget what thread you are in, I will desist.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:53 am 
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Another close qualifying battle but this time Dan takes it. Strongest line up on the grid by a good margin I feel.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Another close qualifying battle but this time Dan takes it. Strongest line up on the grid by a good margin I feel.


Hard to disagree.

The prospect of a Ham/Ver vs Vet/Ric line-up for 2019 is mouthwatering. I don't mind waiting a year to get that.

I'll be disappointed in the end I'm sure. It would require both Ferrari and Merc potentially upsetting their lead drivers.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:13 pm 
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I reckon Hamilton/Ricciardo is the most likely pairing.

RB will move heaven and earth to keep hold of Verstappen, Ferrari may not want to potentially cause grief with Vettel by picking up the only team mate to really challenge him thus far, and Dan looks for all the world to be an upgrade on Bottas. Pushing way ahead into the future here, but I think Ferrari are looking at LeClerc to be Raikonnen's eventual replacement, Marko's recent comments seem to nail the Red Bull colours to Verstappen's mast with Sainz only on loan to Renault and waiting in the wings. That would leave Dan free and Bottas recent downward slide in performance compared to Hamilton doesn't make his seat all that secure for me.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Yeah I'd love either combo but I think Dan-Lewis is the best fit and easiest to get done.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Another close qualifying battle but this time Dan takes it. Strongest line up on the grid by a good margin I feel.

Time will tell...It's certainly the only lineup with two top-shelf drivers (we did all agree on that top 5 list didn't we).


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:51 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
I reckon Hamilton/Ricciardo is the most likely pairing.

RB will move heaven and earth to keep hold of Verstappen, Ferrari may not want to potentially cause grief with Vettel by picking up the only team mate to really challenge him thus far, and Dan looks for all the world to be an upgrade on Bottas. Pushing way ahead into the future here, but I think Ferrari are looking at LeClerc to be Raikonnen's eventual replacement, Marko's recent comments seem to nail the Red Bull colours to Verstappen's mast with Sainz only on loan to Renault and waiting in the wings. That would leave Dan free and Bottas recent downward slide in performance compared to Hamilton doesn't make his seat all that secure for me.

Ricciardo is already free for 2019, rumours I hear is that his more likely destination would be Ferrari.

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2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:52 am 
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whoever gets Dan will get a great driver


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:00 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Another close qualifying battle but this time Dan takes it. Strongest line up on the grid by a good margin I feel.

Time will tell...It's certainly the only lineup with two top-shelf drivers (we did all agree on that top 5 list didn't we).


Aye. I know you view strongest line up in a different sense, more like team dynamic etc rather than just outright performance from both but I was just talking about performance/talent yeah.

Only one I can see troubling it next year is probably controversial because of Vandoorne's early season form but his junior record and performances lately(Didn't see what happened to him at the start today) need respect and I don't think Alonso has lost a step so it could be up there next year if Stoff continues his form. I think we've seen the best of Kimi and with Bottas I don't think he has the potential that Van does but I could well be wrong.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Another close qualifying battle but this time Dan takes it. Strongest line up on the grid by a good margin I feel.

Time will tell...It's certainly the only lineup with two top-shelf drivers (we did all agree on that top 5 list didn't we).

Aye. I know you view strongest line up in a different sense, more like team dynamic etc rather than just outright performance from both but I was just talking about performance/talent yeah.

Only one I can see troubling it next year is probably controversial because of Vandoorne's early season form but his junior record and performances lately(Didn't see what happened to him at the start today) need respect and I don't think Alonso has lost a step so it could be up there next year if Stoff continues his form. I think we've seen the best of Kimi and with Bottas I don't think he has the potential that Van does but I could well be wrong.

:thumbup:

Now that Vandoorne is performing more at the level we were all expecting pre-season, I think Macca has to be in the running for the strongest lineup. Yes, maybe Alonso has lost it (suddenly, between the first half of the season and now), but considering Stoff's junior record it's a lot more likely they're both driving very well now.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:48 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
(Didn't see what happened to him at the start today)

One of the McLarens was run off the road by Raikkonen. As Alonso made up a few places at the start I'm assuming it was Vandoorne who was the unfortunate one.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:35 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
(Didn't see what happened to him at the start today)

One of the McLarens was run off the road by Raikkonen. As Alonso made up a few places at the start I'm assuming it was Vandoorne who was the unfortunate one.

Yes. According to Macca, he was not only run off but also sustained damage.

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