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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:47 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
You'd imagine that Ferrari will be coming packaged with either LeClerc or Giovanazzi, if not both for a huge discount/free. It's the safer gamble in the short term, especially with Honda as they are right now, and securing the short term running of the team seems to be the aim here. It's a good deal for Sauber I think, though the potential pay off might not be as high as it possibly could have been with Honda.

Bird in the hand and all that though.


There are other things too, like fuel supplier etc. If they get the full package it will be good, if they get 'half' the package it will still be a comparison to a team spending 10 times as much as they are.


Anyone who thinks Sauber is on the road to becoming even a remotely contending team is smoking some seriously powerful stuff.


Which is why they had nothing to lose by batting for a works Honda deal.


Incompetents like Honda, IMO, deserve to be shown the door. If Sauber wants to hook up with a band of engineers that are incapable of learning, than fine, go with that.

As we have seen, Sauber recognize that Honda is hopeless, and have broken off the agreement that Kaltenborn set up.

Why people here, who have NO insight whatsoever into Honda being capable of achieving anything, support such a feckeless team is inexplicable. Those on the inside, both at McLaren and Sauber have given more than subtle hints that Honda is a complete disaster.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:54 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
You'd imagine that Ferrari will be coming packaged with either LeClerc or Giovanazzi, if not both for a huge discount/free. It's the safer gamble in the short term, especially with Honda as they are right now, and securing the short term running of the team seems to be the aim here. It's a good deal for Sauber I think, though the potential pay off might not be as high as it possibly could have been with Honda.

Bird in the hand and all that though.


There are other things too, like fuel supplier etc. If they get the full package it will be good, if they get 'half' the package it will still be a comparison to a team spending 10 times as much as they are.


Anyone who thinks Sauber is on the road to becoming even a remotely contending team is smoking some seriously powerful stuff.


Which is why they had nothing to lose by batting for a works Honda deal.


Incompetents like Honda, IMO, deserve to be shown the door. If Sauber wants to hook up with a band of engineers that are incapable of learning, than fine, go with that.

As we have seen, Sauber recognize that Honda is hopeless, and have broken off the agreement that Kaltenborn set up.

Why people here, who have NO insight whatsoever into Honda being capable of achieving anything, support such a feckeless team is inexplicable. Those on the inside, both at McLaren and Sauber have given more than subtle hints that Honda is a complete disaster.


But as I said - Nothing to lose if not going to be remotely competitive without Honda anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:57 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:


There are other things too, like fuel supplier etc. If they get the full package it will be good, if they get 'half' the package it will still be a comparison to a team spending 10 times as much as they are.


Anyone who thinks Sauber is on the road to becoming even a remotely contending team is smoking some seriously powerful stuff.


Which is why they had nothing to lose by batting for a works Honda deal.


Incompetents like Honda, IMO, deserve to be shown the door. If Sauber wants to hook up with a band of engineers that are incapable of learning, than fine, go with that.

As we have seen, Sauber recognize that Honda is hopeless, and have broken off the agreement that Kaltenborn set up.

Why people here, who have NO insight whatsoever into Honda being capable of achieving anything, support such a feckeless team is inexplicable. Those on the inside, both at McLaren and Sauber have given more than subtle hints that Honda is a complete disaster.


But as I said - Nothing to lose if not going to be remotely competitive without Honda anyway.


Ultimately, that is probably correct.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
You'd imagine that Ferrari will be coming packaged with either LeClerc or Giovanazzi, if not both for a huge discount/free. It's the safer gamble in the short term, especially with Honda as they are right now, and securing the short term running of the team seems to be the aim here. It's a good deal for Sauber I think, though the potential pay off might not be as high as it possibly could have been with Honda.

Bird in the hand and all that though.


There are other things too, like fuel supplier etc. If they get the full package it will be good, if they get 'half' the package it will still be a comparison to a team spending 10 times as much as they are.


Anyone who thinks Sauber is on the road to becoming even a remotely contending team is smoking some seriously powerful stuff.


Which is why they had nothing to lose by batting for a works Honda deal.


Incompetents like Honda, IMO, deserve to be shown the door. If Sauber wants to hook up with a band of engineers that are incapable of learning, than fine, go with that.

As we have seen, Sauber recognize that Honda is hopeless, and have broken off the agreement that Kaltenborn set up.

Why people here, who have NO insight whatsoever into Honda being capable of achieving anything, support such a feckeless team is inexplicable. Those on the inside, both at McLaren and Sauber have given more than subtle hints that Honda is a complete disaster.


We need more manufacturers in the Sport and they're not going to improve by just quitting, I think with some more time they'll be fine for the next regs especially. They've basically got 3 seasons to get on top of the combustion concept which is plenty, they make very good twin turbo's and the KERS will be standard.

They started from nothing here remember, they had to build Sakura and MK facilities and had an army of inexperienced engineers at HRD(Sakura) with most of the experienced engineers at HPD(Indy car twin turbo's).

They started with a flawed concept, they just didn't anticipate the lean burn technology Mercedes brought which just happened to be completely incompatible with their design because of the smaller turbo being spun so fast creating too much heat within the V of the engine. So that wrote off the first two years for a start.

But they still nearly caught Renault last year, (a year 3 Renault with TJI) without lean burn themselves and a flawed concept and as a year 2 unit competed with Ferrari's year 2 engine with TJI in the STR during the end of last year. I don't care what anyone says, that's quite impressive considering.

This year instead of taking their time and implementing small design changes to incorporate the lean burn like Ferrari did over 2 seasons and 2 winters they tried to do it all in one winter, along with introducing the combustion concept at the same time, which is a mammoth engineering task and they suffered for it pre-Spain, it was a dire engine with a plethora of small problems missed on the dyno, that's the part they failed miserably and deserve criticism for but you have to take in mind what thy tried to do, it was a huge task.

I'd also personally question the decision to copy the split turbo like Mercedes. Ferrari rightly ignored it as it was a big pain to get right and offered marginal benefits. Honda didn't and I feel that was silly and gave them an unnecessary headache as well. That was poor decision making in my eyes. Reliability problems are a hangover from trying to do everything at once to catch up.

It looks like they've got back to a similar gap as last year now and with the "big" upgrade coming in Spa apparently maybe they can show something positive heading into a Winter where all they have to do is improve on what they've got rather than trying to start all over again which will be easier for sure.

If they fail the Spa upgrade then maybe they will go but I won't be happy about it, I want as many manufacturers in the Sport as possible and not all of them can hit the ground running or have the infrastructure to support it straight away. It takes time to build things up and compete with Manufacturers who have been doing this for 20+ years.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:08 pm 
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I will agree with you on one point, the more manufacturers in the sport, the better. I was happy when Honda returned. VERY happy. McLaren was my favorite team and I want them to win.

Despite my incessant criticism of Honda, I will be VERY happy if they do turn it around. I'm just not hopeful that it can happen, based on what I have seen.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
I will agree with you on one point, the more manufacturers in the sport, the better. I was happy when Honda returned. VERY happy. McLaren was my favorite team and I want them to win.

Despite my incessant criticism of Honda, I will be VERY happy if they do turn it around. I'm just not hopeful that it can happen, based on what I have seen.


I can understand that. I think the fact they're with a big team with a big name driver makes it harder as well and adds to the frustration. It's like they're denying us the chance to see one of the best do their thing which just makes it worse.

Guessing but I think if they'd entered with Sauber you'd(And a lot of people) would be more understanding or patient with them.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:00 pm 
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This article suggests Sauber are in talks to become Ferrari's junior team

http://www.speedcafe.com/2017/08/03/sau ... nior-team/


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:38 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
This article suggests Sauber are in talks to become Ferrari's junior team

http://www.speedcafe.com/2017/08/03/sau ... nior-team/


Unless this leads them to becoming a properly backed Alfa Romeo/Maserati team then it's :thumbdown: from me.

That would mean 8 proper teams and 2 juniors.

To be honest we just need 3 new competitive teams.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
This article suggests Sauber are in talks to become Ferrari's junior team

http://www.speedcafe.com/2017/08/03/sau ... nior-team/


Unless this leads them to becoming a properly backed Alfa Romeo/Maserati team then it's :thumbdown: from me.

That would mean 8 proper teams and 2 juniors.

To be honest we just need 3 new competitive teams.

Since Sergio recently said that Maserati is going to become the face of FCA's electrification efforts I'd say Alfa is the more likely choice.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:44 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
This article suggests Sauber are in talks to become Ferrari's junior team

http://www.speedcafe.com/2017/08/03/sau ... nior-team/


Unless this leads them to becoming a properly backed Alfa Romeo/Maserati team then it's :thumbdown: from me.

That would mean 8 proper teams and 2 juniors.

To be honest we just need 3 new competitive teams.

Since Sergio recently said that Maserati is going to become the face of FCA's electrification efforts I'd say Alfa is the more likely choice.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
bradtheboywonder wrote:
This article suggests Sauber are in talks to become Ferrari's junior team

http://www.speedcafe.com/2017/08/03/sau ... nior-team/


Unless this leads them to becoming a properly backed Alfa Romeo/Maserati team then it's :thumbdown: from me.

That would mean 8 proper teams and 2 juniors.

To be honest we just need 3 new competitive teams.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:42 pm 
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bradtheboywonder wrote:
This article suggests Sauber are in talks to become Ferrari's junior team

http://www.speedcafe.com/2017/08/03/sau ... nior-team/

This article seems to be grounded in speculation based on things Ferrari associated folks have said.

If Sauber were to become a Jr Ferrari team, would they remain in Hinwil?
Thinking on it further, if the goal is to promote another historically iconic Italian brand, would it be good business sense to do so with a team located in Switzerland?

While it can be good for both Ferrari and Sauber, the day that team is no longer in Hinwil it would cease to be Sauber for me.
I do wonder what color Fiat would run though since Alfa was always red in F1. Sponsors would likely play a role on that, but I'd expect to see 4 red cars on the grid.

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THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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