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Halo confirmed for 2018!
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Author:  Lotus49 [ Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Yeah it's weird one. I'm pretty used to them already tbh but the first GP weekend may be quite a shock to the system with them all out there on track in front of many cameras and angles.

But I think they'll be a stop-gap. I can see F1 wanting to go either the screen route that Indy tested and look like going in, or for a full canopy in the new regs which will be Liberty's first with full control. I think we'll get massive changes with the look of the cars and they may move into similar kind of territory of those concepts from Renault/Red Bull/McLaren.

Author:  Asphalt_World [ Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

I feel the Halo is a stop gap. They felt they had to introduce something quickly and this was the only viable option and will stay until a screen becomes available.

Author:  Asphalt_World [ Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

When it comes to visibility in corners, the wing mirrors are more of a problem!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdH_-KKP7JE

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think what I find sad is that no child will look at these cars and be inspired the way I was with the cars of the early 90s.

It seems really odd to me that the FIA have spent an enormous amount of time trying to work rules to make the cars more attractive and then mandated something uglier than anything else we've seen. If you're going to put a halo on why even bother with the 2017 regs designed for aesthetics and the cost of overtaking?


Yes, they will and indeed do.

You're just looking at it from your perspective. I'd imagine that if I was watching F1 in the 60's, the addition of wings towards the end of the decade and of course the 70's would have looked catastrophic.


Oh come on... Just compare the 1991 V12 Ferrari to the 2018 Halo Ferrari. It's not the same.

We were promised the Halo would look better when "integrated". What we've seen is the Halo clearly cannot be integrated. Even the man who is basically responsible for it says he would like to take a chain saw to it.

Author:  Asphalt_World [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think what I find sad is that no child will look at these cars and be inspired the way I was with the cars of the early 90s.

It seems really odd to me that the FIA have spent an enormous amount of time trying to work rules to make the cars more attractive and then mandated something uglier than anything else we've seen. If you're going to put a halo on why even bother with the 2017 regs designed for aesthetics and the cost of overtaking?


Yes, they will and indeed do.

You're just looking at it from your perspective. I'd imagine that if I was watching F1 in the 60's, the addition of wings towards the end of the decade and of course the 70's would have looked catastrophic.


Oh come on... Just compare the 1991 V12 Ferrari to the 2018 Halo Ferrari. It's not the same.

We were promised the Halo would look better when "integrated". What we've seen is the Halo clearly cannot be integrated. Even the man who is basically responsible for it says he would like to take a chain saw to it.


Then the children in my class at school, who are either 10 or 11, are lying when they tell me the cars launched this past week look amazing.

Fair enough.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think what I find sad is that no child will look at these cars and be inspired the way I was with the cars of the early 90s.

It seems really odd to me that the FIA have spent an enormous amount of time trying to work rules to make the cars more attractive and then mandated something uglier than anything else we've seen. If you're going to put a halo on why even bother with the 2017 regs designed for aesthetics and the cost of overtaking?


Yes, they will and indeed do.

You're just looking at it from your perspective. I'd imagine that if I was watching F1 in the 60's, the addition of wings towards the end of the decade and of course the 70's would have looked catastrophic.


Oh come on... Just compare the 1991 V12 Ferrari to the 2018 Halo Ferrari. It's not the same.

We were promised the Halo would look better when "integrated". What we've seen is the Halo clearly cannot be integrated. Even the man who is basically responsible for it says he would like to take a chain saw to it.


Then the children in my class at school, who are either 10 or 11, are lying when they tell me the cars launched this past week look amazing.

Fair enough.


Jesus, I wonder what they would make of the 1991 Ferrari? Has the world really got that little beauty in it?

Author:  Asphalt_World [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think what I find sad is that no child will look at these cars and be inspired the way I was with the cars of the early 90s.

It seems really odd to me that the FIA have spent an enormous amount of time trying to work rules to make the cars more attractive and then mandated something uglier than anything else we've seen. If you're going to put a halo on why even bother with the 2017 regs designed for aesthetics and the cost of overtaking?


Yes, they will and indeed do.

You're just looking at it from your perspective. I'd imagine that if I was watching F1 in the 60's, the addition of wings towards the end of the decade and of course the 70's would have looked catastrophic.


Oh come on... Just compare the 1991 V12 Ferrari to the 2018 Halo Ferrari. It's not the same.

We were promised the Halo would look better when "integrated". What we've seen is the Halo clearly cannot be integrated. Even the man who is basically responsible for it says he would like to take a chain saw to it.


Then the children in my class at school, who are either 10 or 11, are lying when they tell me the cars launched this past week look amazing.

Fair enough.


Jesus, I wonder what they would make of the 1991 Ferrari? Has the world really got that little beauty in it?


Being inspired, which was your original point, does not require a car to be the prettiest in history, especially as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My point is that whilst some may really hate the 2018 car, that does not mean that it can not inspire. Aspects of them are wonderful and we can take inspiration from that, even if we don't like the car in its entirety. I can't stand lots of modern music, I'm predominantly a Britpop guy, but that does not mean that children cannot be inspired to follow, or indeed create their own music, having been inspired by the latest sounds.

My taste in music is not the correct taste. It's simply my taste.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Asphalt_World wrote:
Being inspired, which was your original point, does not require a car to be the prettiest in history, especially as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My point is that whilst some may really hate the 2018 car, that does not mean that it can not inspire. Aspects of them are wonderful and we can take inspiration from that, even if we don't like the car in its entirety. I can't stand lots of modern music, I'm predominantly a Britpop guy, but that does not mean that children cannot be inspired to follow, or indeed create their own music, having been inspired by the latest sounds.

My taste in music is not the correct taste. It's simply my taste.


I don't disagree really. Just frustrated as some of the cars this year could look really nice if it wasn't for the damn halo.

Author:  Asphalt_World [ Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Being inspired, which was your original point, does not require a car to be the prettiest in history, especially as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My point is that whilst some may really hate the 2018 car, that does not mean that it can not inspire. Aspects of them are wonderful and we can take inspiration from that, even if we don't like the car in its entirety. I can't stand lots of modern music, I'm predominantly a Britpop guy, but that does not mean that children cannot be inspired to follow, or indeed create their own music, having been inspired by the latest sounds.

My taste in music is not the correct taste. It's simply my taste.


I don't disagree really. Just frustrated as some of the cars this year could look really nice if it wasn't for the damn halo.


I totally agree. Fingers crossed that Indycar nail the screen solution and it quickly finds its way into F1. I can't see them going back to the open cockpits of last year.

Author:  moby [ Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

How many think FIA will backtrack and remove the Halo now they have mandated it?

First, They dont want to be seen backtracking and maybe they were wrong, and second, can you imagine what would happen if the year after the dropped it there was an indecent that the Halo really would have saved?

Author:  BeOnEdge [ Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

The Halo will stay until something (if anything) better is found.

Exactly as stated above, if they drop it and something happens (no matter how unlikely) how bad will that look.

Author:  GingerFurball [ Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

moby wrote:
How many think FIA will backtrack and remove the Halo now they have mandated it?

First, They dont want to be seen backtracking and maybe they were wrong, and second, can you imagine what would happen if the year after the dropped it there was an indecent that the Halo really would have saved?

They won't.

The only circumstances which will see the halo being removed are if an even better, safer solution is found.

I'll be honest, on most of the car reveals I've had to specifically look for the halo because my eye automatically goes to the nose and the bodywork around the side pods and engine cover when I look at an F1 car.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

moby wrote:
How many think FIA will backtrack and remove the Halo now they have mandated it?

First, They dont want to be seen backtracking and maybe they were wrong, and second, can you imagine what would happen if the year after the dropped it there was an indecent that the Halo really would have saved?


Sadly there is no chance of a back track.

Author:  BeOnEdge [ Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

I never thought I'd say it but I'm already finding myself ignoring the Halo. I wouldn't say I like it but it's not bothering me as much as I thought.

I'll wait until i've seen them in Melbourne on live TV but they're not half as bad as expected.

Author:  Jenson's Understeer [ Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

I pretty much expected that once we started seeing the cars on-track, I'd barely even notice the Halo and that's exactly the case. At this point I think I find the constant 'Halo is awful' comments on every social media post more annoying than the Halo device itself...

Author:  Exediron [ Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I pretty much expected that once we started seeing the cars on-track, I'd barely even notice the Halo and that's exactly the case. At this point I think I find the constant 'Halo is awful' comments on every social media post more annoying than the Halo device itself...

:thumbup: :lol:

Author:  moby [ Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

I was concerned about the driver getting in and out, and here is Gasley's take on it “I don’t like it, it’s a big mess to get in the car and get out,” he said.

“I think my suit is already broken, so we’ll have to ask for many suits from Alpine Stars this year.

“Already, it’s only the first day and I have many holes on the back.

Author:  Blinky McSquinty [ Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

I am going to indulge in a drinking game. For the Melbourne race, every time an announcer mentions the halo, I will quaff one pint.

Heck, I just may go full bogan.

Author:  RaggedMan [ Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I am going to indulge in a drinking game. For the Melbourne race, every time an announcer mentions the halo, I will quaff one pint.

Heck, I just may go full bogan.

You'll be passed out by the time the first stops happen.

Author:  Jenson's Understeer [ Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

RaggedMan wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I am going to indulge in a drinking game. For the Melbourne race, every time an announcer mentions the halo, I will quaff one pint.

Heck, I just may go full bogan.

You'll be passed out by the time the first stops happen.


The first stops? He won't even get to the end of the formation lap :lol:

Author:  RaggedMan [ Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Jenson's Understeer wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I am going to indulge in a drinking game. For the Melbourne race, every time an announcer mentions the halo, I will quaff one pint.

Heck, I just may go full bogan.

You'll be passed out by the time the first stops happen.


The first stops? He won't even get to the end of the formation lap :lol:

Well since he said "race" I was thinking that he wouldn't start until the lights went out. If you started with the pre-race coverage you wouldn't even make it to the formation lap.

Also, unless you're like that old guy on the Benny Hill show who could just pour a beer down his throat I don't think it's possible to finish one pint before the next mention of the Halo when you'd have to drink again.

Author:  dompclarke [ Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
I am going to indulge in a drinking game. For the Melbourne race, every time an announcer mentions the halo, I will quaff one pint.

Heck, I just may go full bogan.

American or British pint?

Author:  UnlikeUday [ Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

A lot of people I've seen complaining about the look of the Halo on the car. Sadly, nothing can be done now as FIA feels it's worth the safety.

People also wondered if it would hinder the driver's vision to some extent. When following testing & Force India's Twitter page, one more glitch / hassle looks it will hinder drivers. Ocon, who's one of the taller drivers has to take such trouble (so as to speak) to enter the car. This issue would only get double worse if for some reason the car catches fire or is in a precarious location on the track where the driver needs to get out in a hurry. Check this small video!


Author:  Jenson's Understeer [ Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

UnlikeUday wrote:
A lot of people I've seen complaining about the look of the Halo on the car. Sadly, nothing can be done now as FIA feels it's worth the safety.

People also wondered if it would hinder the driver's vision to some extent. When following testing & Force India's Twitter page, one more glitch / hassle looks it will hinder drivers. Ocon, who's one of the taller drivers has to take such trouble (so as to speak) to enter the car. This issue would only get double worse if for some reason the car catches fire or is in a precarious location on the track where the driver needs to get out in a hurry. Check this small video!



As much as it looks awkward to get into the car, I have literally no concerns that if a driver had to get out of their car in a hurry, they would be able to do. There is absolutely no way the FIA would've introduced something that might hinder that given the potential for a situation whereby not being able to escape the car could pose a risk to a driver's life.

Author:  Warheart01 [ Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

When looking at the halo from the side it looks quite allright, almost like a canopy or windscreen.
But when viewed from the front it is horrible, from above too.

Author:  Blinky McSquinty [ Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think what I find sad is that no child will look at these cars and be inspired the way I was with the cars of the early 90s.

It seems really odd to me that the FIA have spent an enormous amount of time trying to work rules to make the cars more attractive and then mandated something uglier than anything else we've seen. If you're going to put a halo on why even bother with the 2017 regs designed for aesthetics and the cost of overtaking?


Yes, they will and indeed do.

You're just looking at it from your perspective. I'd imagine that if I was watching F1 in the 60's, the addition of wings towards the end of the decade and of course the 70's would have looked catastrophic.


Oh come on... Just compare the 1991 V12 Ferrari to the 2018 Halo Ferrari. It's not the same.

We were promised the Halo would look better when "integrated". What we've seen is the Halo clearly cannot be integrated. Even the man who is basically responsible for it says he would like to take a chain saw to it.


Then the children in my class at school, who are either 10 or 11, are lying when they tell me the cars launched this past week look amazing.

Fair enough.


Amazing what a fresh mind with little prejudices perceives. Most fans are used to the appearance of the cars, in our minds they are attractive. But that is conditioning, we have become used to their appearance. But I see modern Formula One cars differently, they are garish constructs, a morph of praying mantis meets transformers meets Homer Simpson the drunk car designer.

Thus, IMO the halo is just taking an ugly car into fugly territory.

When wings started popping up, fans had the very same reaction. You could not ignore them, and in the eyes of most, they detracted from the beauty of the cars. But we are now so used to seeing wings, they do not even register on our personal "yuck" scale.

Author:  Exediron [ Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
When wings started popping up, fans had the very same reaction. You could not ignore them, and in the eyes of most, they detracted from the beauty of the cars. But we are now so used to seeing wings, they do not even register on our personal "yuck" scale.

Not only do they not register on my scale, I actively like them. People have different opinions about what makes a good-looking car - it's not all about fresh perspective vs. long-time viewers.

(that said, the halo is ugly as hell! :lol: )

Author:  Asphalt_World [ Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Shark fin caused a lot of issues with looks not that long ago, and although some don't like them still, myself included, it does fade away a bit over time. Same with the latest nose cones which area dreadful compared to the early to mid 90's were in most cases. As for the massive amounts of stuck on aero bits on wongs, bargeboards and other places.

Author:  RaggedMan [ Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Asphalt_World wrote:
Shark fin caused a lot of issues with looks not that long ago, and although some don't like them still, myself included, it does fade away a bit over time. Same with the latest nose cones which area dreadful compared to the early to mid 90's were in most cases. As for the massive amounts of stuck on aero bits on wongs, bargeboards and other places.

Oh my. That sounds uncomfortable.

Author:  Asphalt_World [ Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

RaggedMan wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Shark fin caused a lot of issues with looks not that long ago, and although some don't like them still, myself included, it does fade away a bit over time. Same with the latest nose cones which area dreadful compared to the early to mid 90's were in most cases. As for the massive amounts of stuck on aero bits on wongs, bargeboards and other places.

Oh my. That sounds uncomfortable.


Doh!

Author:  Jezza13 [ Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Exediron wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
When wings started popping up, fans had the very same reaction. You could not ignore them, and in the eyes of most, they detracted from the beauty of the cars. But we are now so used to seeing wings, they do not even register on our personal "yuck" scale.

Not only do they not register on my scale, I actively like them. People have different opinions about what makes a good-looking car - it's not all about fresh perspective vs. long-time viewers.

(that said, the halo is ugly as hell! :lol: )


I've not known F1 without a front and rear wing but I detest the direction the front wing has taken with more and more elements being added.

For me this is a thing of beauty. Elegant, simple, strong and stylish.

Image
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5662/30200032841_eb31b0c234.jpg

While I appreciate the functionality of this wing, it looks hideous, it looks fragile and it's complicated.

Image
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHvbuLqAqiPBndXBlzR1DZmTj2-uEgj9_kHWfCLmc0j4iAV6R7

Author:  Exediron [ Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Jezza13 wrote:
I've not known F1 without a front and rear wing but I detest the direction the front wing has taken with more and more elements being added.

For me this is a thing of beauty. Elegant, simple, strong and stylish.

Image
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5662/30200032841_eb31b0c234.jpg

Whereas to me it looks primitive and boxy. The current (front) wings are a little clumsy, but in general I'm all for more visible aerodynamic development.

Aesthetically, I think the new IndyCar is a good compromise:

Image
Source: https://www.gpupdate.net/en/indycar-ser ... ourse-kit/

It doesn't look like someone tried to cram three wings worth of appendages into only one surface, but it also looks sleek and developed enough to satisfy me.

Author:  Option or Prime [ Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Anyone care to explain the thinking behind fitting a halo to F1 cars but not to all single seaters, a random wheel would kill just as easily at 50 mph as at 150mph wouldn't it? So why F1 only?

Just watched the Formula E race, if Ocon was racing in FE and the Halo as fitted in that formula he would be at a severe disadvantage at the pit stop. Whole concept seems badly thought out to me.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone care to explain the thinking behind fitting a halo to F1 cars but not to all single seaters, a random wheel would kill just as easily at 50 mph as at 150mph wouldn't it? So why F1 only?

Just watched the Formula E race, if Ocon was racing in FE and the Halo as fitted in that formula he would be at a severe disadvantage at the pit stop. Whole concept seems badly thought out to me.


FE will have a halo from next season.

Author:  Option or Prime [ Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

mikeyg123 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Anyone care to explain the thinking behind fitting a halo to F1 cars but not to all single seaters, a random wheel would kill just as easily at 50 mph as at 150mph wouldn't it? So why F1 only?

Just watched the Formula E race, if Ocon was racing in FE and the Halo as fitted in that formula he would be at a severe disadvantage at the pit stop. Whole concept seems badly thought out to me.


FE will have a halo from next season.


Thanks, well that explains it then!

Author:  sandman1347 [ Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

I'm a little concerned about drivers escaping the cockpit in the event of a fire. I think it will become substantially harder to do that now.

Author:  Exediron [ Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

sandman1347 wrote:
I'm a little concerned about drivers escaping the cockpit in the event of a fire. I think it will become substantially harder to do that now.

This gets brought up a lot when discussing the halo, but I don't really think it's a concern in modern F1: cars don't burn out of control anymore due to advances in fuel cell design, and even if they did marshals with fire extinguishers are never more than a few seconds away.

When was the last time that there was a serious fire in an F1 car that the driver would have needed to extricate themselves from in order to avoid injury?

Author:  dompclarke [ Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'm a little concerned about drivers escaping the cockpit in the event of a fire. I think it will become substantially harder to do that now.

This gets brought up a lot when discussing the halo, but I don't really think it's a concern in modern F1: cars don't burn out of control anymore due to advances in fuel cell design, and even if they did marshals with fire extinguishers are never more than a few seconds away.

When was the last time that there was a serious fire in an F1 car that the driver would have needed to extricate themselves from in order to avoid injury?

When was the last time there was an accident the halo would have prevented injury or death?
They are supposed to be lowering risk, if the halo could increase risks in other ways it must be lower than those it reduces...

Author:  Exediron [ Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

dompclarke wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'm a little concerned about drivers escaping the cockpit in the event of a fire. I think it will become substantially harder to do that now.

This gets brought up a lot when discussing the halo, but I don't really think it's a concern in modern F1: cars don't burn out of control anymore due to advances in fuel cell design, and even if they did marshals with fire extinguishers are never more than a few seconds away.

When was the last time that there was a serious fire in an F1 car that the driver would have needed to extricate themselves from in order to avoid injury?

When was the last time there was an accident the halo would have prevented injury or death?
They are supposed to be lowering risk, if the halo could increase risks in other ways it must be lower than those it reduces...

In F1? A very long time ago. But in the rest of motorsport, quite recently - which is why the halo is being pushed to all FIA series, not just Formula One.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am not in favor of the halo. But I don't think the risk of fire is a legitimate reason to oppose it.

Author:  Zazu [ Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Halo confirmed for 2018!

I'm at Catalunya and they actually look good trackside.

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