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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:16 pm 
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If this in incorporated into an autonomous 4 or 5 car, the problem would be solved by getting out at your front gate, then the car taking its self off to a charging station until you press the 'come here' button on your phone.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:20 pm 
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moby wrote:
Read a good thing on this yesterday. Electric, as ordered, but with built in LPG generators. Seconds to fill up and very low output, and constant. There can also be 'no generating' areas if required such as indoor carparks etc.


How is that better than a gas/electric hybrid. An engine burning LPC is very similar to a gas engine. I've ridden in taxis that were LPG powered. Virtually the same experience as driving a small gas engined car.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Read a good thing on this yesterday. Electric, as ordered, but with built in LPG generators. Seconds to fill up and very low output, and constant. There can also be 'no generating' areas if required such as indoor carparks etc.


How is that better than a gas/electric hybrid. An engine burning LPC is very similar to a gas engine. I've ridden in taxis that were LPG powered. Virtually the same experience as driving a small gas engined car.


Far lower emissions of carbon monoxide, sealed fuel system evaporative losses, no fuel spill problems as any spills evaporate etc. and it fills in the same time as petrol and does not self discharge if not used.

Its not a power thing, I think most cars are way over powered anyway, especially in towns, where most are used.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:49 am 
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moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Read a good thing on this yesterday. Electric, as ordered, but with built in LPG generators. Seconds to fill up and very low output, and constant. There can also be 'no generating' areas if required such as indoor carparks etc.


How is that better than a gas/electric hybrid. An engine burning LPC is very similar to a gas engine. I've ridden in taxis that were LPG powered. Virtually the same experience as driving a small gas engined car.


Far lower emissions of carbon monoxide, sealed fuel system evaporative losses, no fuel spill problems as any spills evaporate etc. and it fills in the same time as petrol and does not self discharge if not used.

Its not a power thing, I think most cars are way over powered anyway, especially in towns, where most are used.

A true serial hybrid like what's described above the ICE isn't connected in any way to the drive train and runs continuously at its most efficient RPM level as it generated electrical power. Which is always going to be more efficient than a normal car or a parallel hybrid where the ICE has to go into less efficient ranges when more power is needed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:17 am 
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FE would be even more appealing if they find a way to get the speeds up to 200mph. I'd also like to see chassis being redesigned by teams. The standard look for all the cars doesn't quite cut it for me. The racing, however, is competitive.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:41 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Speaking for myself, while I've watched Formula E races, I only do so when there's nothing else to watch… Kind of do the same with Indy these days too with the exception of a few races, I will NEVER want to not hear the roar of engines. For many of us it provides a burst of euphoria that nothing else can ever replicate. Not just F1 either. I LOOOOVE the 2-Stroke 125cc and 250cc motocycle engines as well as the deep, throaty 2-Cylinder sound made by other bikes like the Ducks, Hondas, Suzukis, and others, as well as all types of race cars, karts, dirtbikes, Outboard motors (if you've never heard on revving you're seriously missing out), and even RC engines!

yes, I might have a problem. :LOL:


Same here. The sounds of the race track are irreplaceable to me. That is why I utterly despise the current F1 engines. They are soulless.

I grew up at Road America, listening to the amazing sounds of IMSA GTP cars. Absolutely amazing cars. V-12 Jaguars were my favorite. Porsche 962C's were my second favorite. Despite being turbocharged, the 962C's were amazingly loud, often getting penalized for being above the noise regulations. One driver was black flagged for exceeding the track noise limits and on his in lap to retire the car, he ran over (and destroyed) the noise sensor! Awesome.

My appreciation for motorsports went off scale when I heard F1 engines in real life for the first time. Staggering, simply staggering. I'll never forget that first day. My appreciation was kept up during the change to the 3.0 liter engines, and to the V-8's, but it all died when I went to my first V-6 race. The lack of noise was startling.

I can't even imagine what an electric race would be like, with the near total lack of noise. I just can't wrap my head around that, nor can I see myself caring one whit about such a racing series.


I went to Zolder some weeks ago and there were some rich guys driving old formula cars (BOSS racing series)..one was a F1 Jag V10 from 2005 (I think)... I was standing at the end of the back straight just before the braking zone, at no more then 5m from the edge of the track. When it came blasting by -and I was wearing ear protection- my entire body just tried to panick and run! Such is the power of those engines, you have to rationally try to convince your body to stay put and absorp the violence of the sound and the speed. Smiles all around me for the 10-15 people standing there too. :-)
Next lap, you try to prepare yourself some more but there's nothing you can do: you hear the rpm's go up, air being sucked into that engine and blasted out in a high-pitched symphony and then the kick when the car shoots by and impresses you with its mighty roar.

And then another lap, and then another.. pure heaven!!!


(and then the car broke down... :-( )


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:51 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Read a good thing on this yesterday. Electric, as ordered, but with built in LPG generators. Seconds to fill up and very low output, and constant. There can also be 'no generating' areas if required such as indoor carparks etc.


How is that better than a gas/electric hybrid. An engine burning LPC is very similar to a gas engine. I've ridden in taxis that were LPG powered. Virtually the same experience as driving a small gas engined car.


Far lower emissions of carbon monoxide, sealed fuel system evaporative losses, no fuel spill problems as any spills evaporate etc. and it fills in the same time as petrol and does not self discharge if not used.

Its not a power thing, I think most cars are way over powered anyway, especially in towns, where most are used.

A true serial hybrid like what's described above the ICE isn't connected in any way to the drive train and runs continuously at its most efficient RPM level as it generated electrical power. Which is always going to be more efficient than a normal car or a parallel hybrid where the ICE has to go into less efficient ranges when more power is needed.


To me that is a better way to go. You can choose (or rules can command) when the charging system is working, and the car does not need to be in motion or have any relation to road/engine speed.

This would not even have to be LPG or LNG but could be Hydrogen or anything that burns clean. One thing they seem to be overlooking though is that Water vapour is a far stronger greenhouse gas than Co2


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:45 am 
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speedy_bob wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Speaking for myself, while I've watched Formula E races, I only do so when there's nothing else to watch… Kind of do the same with Indy these days too with the exception of a few races, I will NEVER want to not hear the roar of engines. For many of us it provides a burst of euphoria that nothing else can ever replicate. Not just F1 either. I LOOOOVE the 2-Stroke 125cc and 250cc motocycle engines as well as the deep, throaty 2-Cylinder sound made by other bikes like the Ducks, Hondas, Suzukis, and others, as well as all types of race cars, karts, dirtbikes, Outboard motors (if you've never heard on revving you're seriously missing out), and even RC engines!

yes, I might have a problem. :LOL:


Same here. The sounds of the race track are irreplaceable to me. That is why I utterly despise the current F1 engines. They are soulless.

I grew up at Road America, listening to the amazing sounds of IMSA GTP cars. Absolutely amazing cars. V-12 Jaguars were my favorite. Porsche 962C's were my second favorite. Despite being turbocharged, the 962C's were amazingly loud, often getting penalized for being above the noise regulations. One driver was black flagged for exceeding the track noise limits and on his in lap to retire the car, he ran over (and destroyed) the noise sensor! Awesome.

My appreciation for motorsports went off scale when I heard F1 engines in real life for the first time. Staggering, simply staggering. I'll never forget that first day. My appreciation was kept up during the change to the 3.0 liter engines, and to the V-8's, but it all died when I went to my first V-6 race. The lack of noise was startling.

I can't even imagine what an electric race would be like, with the near total lack of noise. I just can't wrap my head around that, nor can I see myself caring one whit about such a racing series.


I went to Zolder some weeks ago and there were some rich guys driving old formula cars (BOSS racing series)..one was a F1 Jag V10 from 2005 (I think)... I was standing at the end of the back straight just before the braking zone, at no more then 5m from the edge of the track. When it came blasting by -and I was wearing ear protection- my entire body just tried to panick and run! Such is the power of those engines, you have to rationally try to convince your body to stay put and absorp the violence of the sound and the speed. Smiles all around me for the 10-15 people standing there too. :-)
Next lap, you try to prepare yourself some more but there's nothing you can do: you hear the rpm's go up, air being sucked into that engine and blasted out in a high-pitched symphony and then the kick when the car shoots by and impresses you with its mighty roar.

And then another lap, and then another.. pure heaven!!!


(and then the car broke down... :-( )


Wish I was there man, wish I was there. Your description is absolutely wonderful. Everything that you describe is missing from today's F1.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Pyrotek wrote:
FE would be even more appealing if they find a way to get the speeds up to 200mph. I'd also like to see chassis being redesigned by teams. The standard look for all the cars doesn't quite cut it for me. The racing, however, is competitive.


Don't worry I'm sure it will end up just like F1 with all the same problems along the way. Now the big boys are getting involved it will all go to hell in double quick time.

Incidentally, what does that $4m cover? It seems an awfully small amount of money to run a race team on. I should think Rosberg will want $2m to be team principal for a start.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Pyrotek wrote:
FE would be even more appealing if they find a way to get the speeds up to 200mph. I'd also like to see chassis being redesigned by teams. The standard look for all the cars doesn't quite cut it for me. The racing, however, is competitive.

The speeds are coming up but unless/until they move away from the very tight street courses 200mph is questionable.

As far as the chassis goes, the idea is to keep it spec in order to focus on the power system and drive train while keeping costs down. By keeping everyone on the same chassis there's no distraction from the main goal and the lower costs make the series more attractive to everyone from independent teams to big manufacturers and start ups in the EV field. So far this is proving to be the right approach and I think Agog is strong enough to keep it that way.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:12 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Pyrotek wrote:
FE would be even more appealing if they find a way to get the speeds up to 200mph. I'd also like to see chassis being redesigned by teams. The standard look for all the cars doesn't quite cut it for me. The racing, however, is competitive.

The speeds are coming up but unless/until they move away from the very tight street courses 200mph is questionable.

As far as the chassis goes, the idea is to keep it spec in order to focus on the power system and drive train while keeping costs down. By keeping everyone on the same chassis there's no distraction from the main goal and the lower costs make the series more attractive to everyone from independent teams to big manufacturers and start ups in the EV field. So far this is proving to be the right approach and I think Agog is strong enough to keep it that way.

The cars will have to outgrow the circuits in order for them to consider changing. I think FE is happy as it is. I reckon a change to higher speed cars and better circuits will only come from a push by the new manufacturers

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the cars closer to roadcar performance to maintain the 'relevance'?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:30 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Pyrotek wrote:
FE would be even more appealing if they find a way to get the speeds up to 200mph. I'd also like to see chassis being redesigned by teams. The standard look for all the cars doesn't quite cut it for me. The racing, however, is competitive.

The speeds are coming up but unless/until they move away from the very tight street courses 200mph is questionable.

As far as the chassis goes, the idea is to keep it spec in order to focus on the power system and drive train while keeping costs down. By keeping everyone on the same chassis there's no distraction from the main goal and the lower costs make the series more attractive to everyone from independent teams to big manufacturers and start ups in the EV field. So far this is proving to be the right approach and I think Agog is strong enough to keep it that way.


Racing is not about going fastest, infact most of the interesting races and parts of races I have seen have been at far lower speeds than 200 mph. I think it may do some good if FIA were to allow a hot hatch to try a lap of the tracks FE is run on, just to see the difference.
The cars come in as cargo at almost 500 mph, and that is not exciting, its the difference between them that is racing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:35 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the cars closer to roadcar performance to maintain the 'relevance'?


Is this a competitive sport or a public R & D show?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:06 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the cars closer to roadcar performance to maintain the 'relevance'?


Is this a competitive sport or a public R & D show?

A bit of both and I'm fine with that. It was the same with LMP1 but it became too expensive because they had to develop both a hybrid drivetrain and incredibly effective aero so the manufactures are leaving it.

FE allows them to develop drivetrains to show off their engineering in a competitive forum in a spec chassis which keeps costs down. Having manufactures involved and keeping the races on city streets increases visibility for both the series and the makers.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:18 pm 
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I posted this on another FE thread but the fastest (and loudest) F1 cars ever built, until now at least, were raced in 2004. Quite possibly the most boring F1 season ever. Not only did one driver completely walk away with every race and the title but there was basically zero overtaking. Just processional following and pit stop passes.

Speed and noise does not make for great racing. Especially as 99% of people are watching on TV, with the volume turned down anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:49 am 
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Banana Man wrote:

Speed and noise does not make for great racing.


Nobody is saying that it does. Except you.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:38 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
colinp wrote:
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.


The vast majority of the electricity that will recharge these batteries will come from fossil fuels. Just going electric does automatically mean these cars are not powered by fossil fuels.


My home energy supplier sources all its electricity from renewables so when I buy an electric car in the future there won't be fossil fuels involved in powering my car whatsoever.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:39 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
colinp wrote:
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.


The vast majority of the electricity that will recharge these batteries will come from fossil fuels. Just going electric does automatically mean these cars are not powered by fossil fuels.


My home energy supplier sources all its electricity from renewables so when I buy an electric car in the future there won't be fossil fuels involved in powering my car whatsoever.

In theory that's true, but can't track and what you use really comes from ;)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:50 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
colinp wrote:
Could lithium not be considered a fossil fuel? its not exactly renewable.


The vast majority of the electricity that will recharge these batteries will come from fossil fuels. Just going electric does automatically mean these cars are not powered by fossil fuels.


My home energy supplier sources all its electricity from renewables so when I buy an electric car in the future there won't be fossil fuels involved in powering my car whatsoever.


Where do you get your power from?

You do realize that your situation is not in any way common? Not even a little bit.

China, India, the US, and other countries burn billions of tons of coal. Every year. Each.

Natural gas is #2.

Nuclear is not a clean fuel.

Clean fuels in power generation world wide are a rounding error.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Nuclear is not a clean fuel.

Not questioning you here because I don't know much about nuclear. But nuclear not being clean is the opposite of what we're being told. Can you expand on that or is there somewhere I can read more?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to keep the cars closer to roadcar performance to maintain the 'relevance'?


Is this a competitive sport or a public R & D show?


Is that a serious question? With all those big name car companies getting involved there's only one way this series is going, hence my previous comments that Fe will take on all the problems F1 already has. How long before the series becomes dependent on the involvement of the manufacturers and they start wagging the dog?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:44 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Nuclear is not a clean fuel.

Not questioning you here because I don't know much about nuclear. But nuclear not being clean is the opposite of what we're being told. Can you expand on that or is there somewhere I can read more?

My guess he means storage of the nuclear waste. Production of electricity via nuclear is CO2-free, but storage remains an issue (and safety, although I'm much less worried about that in new plants).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:05 pm 
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speedy_bob wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Nuclear is not a clean fuel.

Not questioning you here because I don't know much about nuclear. But nuclear not being clean is the opposite of what we're being told. Can you expand on that or is there somewhere I can read more?

My guess he means storage of the nuclear waste. Production of electricity via nuclear is CO2-free, but storage remains an issue (and safety, although I'm much less worried about that in new plants).


Not just storage but nuclear waste in general is not clean. Neither is the fuel. It is very deadly. In the USA, there is NO storage location at all for nuclear waste. It's all kept at the generating plants, piling up year after year.

Further, the types of accidents that happen at nuclear plants are astonishingly dangerous.

Nuclear plants are so dangerous, so inefficient that they would not exist without massive, absolutely massive government subsidies. No commercial plant can survive on its own. For example, they are uninsurable. No private company will insure a nuclear plant, hence the need for tremendous government subsides.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Quick break down for where power has come from here in the States from 2001-2016 https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/#/topic/0?agg=2,0,1&fuel=vtvv&geo=g&sec=g&linechart=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.COW-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.NG-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.NUC-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.HYC-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.WND-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.TSN-US-99.A&columnchart=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.COW-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.NG-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.NUC-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.HYC-US-99.A~ELEC.GEN.WND-US-99.A&map=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.A&freq=A&ctype=linechart&ltype=pin&rtype=s&maptype=0&rse=0&pin=

According to that data from the U.S. Energy Information Agency the changes in the percentage of total output by source are:
Coal - 2001 50.95%/2016 30.40%
Natural Gas - 2001 17.10%/2016 33.84%
Hydro (dams) - 2001 5.81%/2016 6.52%
Wind - 2001 0.18%/2016 5.56%
Solar - 2001 0.01%/2016 0.90%
Nuclear - 2001 20.58%/2016 19.67%

Over that time span total power production (in thousand megawatthours) went from 3,736,644 to 4,079,079.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:05 pm 
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No need to argue about nuclear, it's not a practical solution from any stand point. In fact I just saw an article this morning about a power company in the south (Georgia maybe) that isn't even going to finish 2 nuclear plants that they have under construction.

However a lot of the same arguments used against nuclear fuel can be used against coal and the techniques that are being used to get all of this new found natural gas and petroleum from shale and tar sands. The difference being that although we don't know what the half-life of the environmental damage being done I'm sure it's not nearly as long as it is for uranium or plutonium waste.

The recent removal of regulations relating to dumping the waste from coal mines into waterways will have lasting effects on drinking water as will the move to open mining of coal that just takes the top off the mountain which leaves nothing to hold the soil in place after the coal seam has been exhausted.

The fracking techniques being used to get more oil and gas from previously exhausted wells use unknown concoctions of chemicals in the process which remain in the ground often in close proximity to ground water that is used for public consumption.

Continuing to extract and burn hydrocarbon fuels is an ending to nowhere even if the climate change deniers are correct. There is a finite amount of these materials that will be eventually used up and putting off developing renewables until circumstances become more dire is just plain short sighted.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:23 pm 
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The big change in Nuke will come when they get fission sorted. There is an EU project in France that say they will be producing in 5 years, full size to be in operation in 10. (I seem to read this every 10 years though :lol: ) They are producing now, but only micro seconds.

It is one of the most annoying things about Brexit, cos 'we' are bombed out of that too.

Edit, I also like this Chinese idea of pebble bed reactors. Small and totally safe.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Banana Man wrote:

Speed and noise does not make for great racing.


Nobody is saying that it does. Except you.


Really

Herb Tarlik wrote:
I can't even imagine what an electric race would be like, with the near total lack of noise. I just can't wrap my head around that, nor can I see myself caring one whit about such a racing series.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:33 pm 
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For anyone interested in supercaps, this is an interview with a manufacturer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K8JIC-ov_Y

Removes the long time charge if they get it right.

For anyone unsure of the difference this explains it well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FG6JRHGFyQ


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:29 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Banana Man wrote:

Speed and noise does not make for great racing.


Nobody is saying that it does. Except you.


Really

Herb Tarlik wrote:
I can't even imagine what an electric race would be like, with the near total lack of noise. I just can't wrap my head around that, nor can I see myself caring one whit about such a racing series.


Sigh.....more wasted effort explaining the bleeding obvious.

The comment I made has nothing to do with the actual racing of an electric series. My comment was about the excitement surrounding the atmosphere of such an event. Electric cars have been proven to be very fast. If a car can go fast, then they can race. I'm sure Senna and Prost could race each other in electric cars just as much as in gas powered cars. The noise factor I described above does not change this fact.

The lack of noise would ruin my enjoyment of such racing.

Therefore, there's no logic connecting my two comments as you seem to suggest.


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