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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:05 pm 
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https://uk.news.yahoo.com/mercedes-benz ... 21170.html

So it seems manufacturers are happy to spend on Formula E to boost electric car technology and green car sales following Renault and Jaguar. Audi and possibly Porsche are also joining. Going to be where most of the manufacturers are going soon. How long till Honda Mclaren Ferrari Ford etc join?

Are we headed for all electric cars in all the main series? Going all electric seems to make more sense than hybrid turbo engines that are too complex to make a worthwhile competition?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:06 pm 
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I think BMW have an entry lined up as well?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:35 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Are we headed for all electric cars in all the main series? Going all electric seems to make more sense than hybrid turbo engines that are too complex to make a worthwhile competition?

I don't think that big names entering Formula E should be considered a sign of them quitting other series just yet. Formula E has a budget cap of less than $4m dollars - they can very easily run a competitive F-E team alongside an effort into whichever other sports they choose.

mikeyg123 wrote:
I think BMW have an entry lined up as well?

Yes, BMW is teaming up with Andretti. They're not going to be entering as a factory team however, as far as I know. Not that the distinction matters very much in Formula E.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:39 pm 
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Well, that's good I guess. It's a shame though that they will exit DTM.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I don't think that big names entering Formula E should be considered a sign of them quitting other series just yet.

Erm Mercedes quit DTM to do this instead...


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:20 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I don't think that big names entering Formula E should be considered a sign of them quitting other series just yet.

Erm Mercedes quit DTM to do this instead...

I'm aware. That doesn't make a pattern. And they have remained involved in many other varieties of motorsport that are not electric at the same time.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Well, that's good I guess. It's a shame though that they will exit DTM.


Maybe they think that in a short time Touring cars will be electric?
Get ahead of the compitition


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:51 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pendulumeffect wrote:
Are we headed for all electric cars in all the main series? Going all electric seems to make more sense than hybrid turbo engines that are too complex to make a worthwhile competition?

I don't think that big names entering Formula E should be considered a sign of them quitting other series just yet. Formula E has a budget cap of less than $4m dollars - they can very easily run a competitive F-E team alongside an effort into whichever other sports they choose.

mikeyg123 wrote:
I think BMW have an entry lined up as well?

Yes, BMW is teaming up with Andretti. They're not going to be entering as a factory team however, as far as I know. Not that the distinction matters very much in Formula E.


BMW's deal will be similar to Joest Audi. BMW will be producing all the works equipment, but Andretti are running the team.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Delighted for FE

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:09 am 
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Same timing as the announcement of the release of the new AMG (gas guzzling) GT4 customer race car! Keeping it real!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Great news for FE . Continues to establish itself ,just get rid of fan boost and i'm all in!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:25 pm 
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It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


I believe Norway and Sweden are banning the sales of new petrol and diesel cars from 2025 onward. This is somewhat more viable as they are smaller, more affluent countries. Living as close as I do to the M27, this can't come soon enough.

Anyway, this is good news for Fe. If I was running the series I'd run it like this

- No chassis or aero development what-so-ever. The challenge should be 100% focused on power storage and delivery. Want to keep costs down? Eliminate the need for any carbon fibre and wind tunnel facilities.

- Get rid of the 2 car system. Change batteries instead as that adds a technical challenge of making batteries which can be quickly changed.

- Race at proper circuits. Everyone came to a grinding halt at turn one in NY and bashed into each other, looked ridiculous.

- With the above 2 points in mind, strategy will come in to it more. At the moment, everyone makes one stop within a lap of each other. If you have longer distances and changeable batteries, do you go lighter with fewer batteries and more pit stops? This will put the emphasis on manufacturers to develop batteries and more efficient motors. The winners will be the ones who get the most power into the smallest, lightest batteries.

- F1 style elimination for qualy with a 2005 style twist. You start the race with the batteries you qualify on and you can't charge them once Q3 begins. Again, it mixes up strategy. Do you go for fewer batteries and a lighter car but stop earlier or do a long stint and keep track position later on.

- Get rid of fan boost and have a GP3 DRS style system. X number of hits per race.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.

Yeah a lot of the criticism of the UK announcement has been that it's basically an empty statement, as by 2040 there won't be a need to ban petrol or diesel cars since there won't be any (or many) being manufactured anyway.


Last edited by Black_Flag_11 on Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didnt have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


I believe Norway and Sweden are banning the sales of new petrol and diesel cars from 2025 onward. This is somewhat more viable as they are smaller, more affluent countries. Living as close as I do to the M27, this can't come soon enough.

Anyway, this is good news for Fe. If I was running the series I'd run it like this

- No chassis or aero development what-so-ever. The challenge should be 100% focused on power storage and delivery. Want to keep costs down? Eliminate the need for any carbon fibre and wind tunnel facilities.

- Get rid of the 2 car system. Change batteries instead as that adds a technical challenge of making batteries which can be quickly changed.

- Race at proper circuits. Everyone came to a grinding halt at turn one in NY and bashed into each other, looked ridiculous.

- With the above 2 points in mind, strategy will come in to it more. At the moment, everyone makes one stop within a lap of each other. If you have longer distances and changeable batteries, do you go lighter with fewer batteries and more pit stops? This will put the emphasis on manufacturers to develop batteries and more efficient motors. The winners will be the ones who get the most power into the smallest, lightest batteries.

- F1 style elimination for qualy with a 2005 style twist. You start the race with the batteries you qualify on and you can't charge them once Q3 begins. Again, it mixes up strategy. Do you go for fewer batteries and a lighter car but stop earlier or do a long stint and keep track position later on.

- Get rid of fan boost and have a GP3 DRS style system. X number of hits per race.

I'd be all for this. But I do think points 1 and 2 are their intention (eventually)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:00 pm 
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I can't see how right now, but as soon as electric cars are quick enough, they will take over.

I suppose if all the development of a racing series contributes to road relevant improvements for electric cars, that will be a good thing. What would help is if the rules were very open to allow that space for crazy innovation that made F1 exciting when it was the combustion engine that was in its relative infancy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:36 pm 
Alex53 wrote:
I can't see how right now, but as soon as electric cars are quick enough, they will take over.

I suppose if all the development of a racing series contributes to road relevant improvements for electric cars, that will be a good thing. What would help is if the rules were very open to allow that space for crazy innovation that made F1 exciting when it was the combustion engine that was in its relative infancy.


I may be wrong, but I thought electric cars were very quick - their torque profile being almost linear from the get go...but their issue is longevity of that power. Full tilt drains the battery so quickly that racing becomes difficult....battery management being a prime consideration for the drivers.

Here's a thought: they could play the sound of a V12 engine over the electric motor....big grin if they do that :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didn't have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?

Clearly investment has to be made in infrastructure. In the Netherlands in the major cities you can barely move for charging points (well, maybe an exaggeration but the point is they are reasonably plentiful). And they are fairly cheap to top up your battery. Also, many garages have electric charging points and many companies even have a few guest spaces reserved for electric (or hybrid) vehicles. I was shocked when I went on a trip to the UK and found public charging points costing almost as much to "fill up" as a petrol car would. It's criminal exploitation. But in other northern European countries they already have far better infrastructure in place and this will only get better.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:48 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
I can't see how right now, but as soon as electric cars are quick enough, they will take over.

I suppose if all the development of a racing series contributes to road relevant improvements for electric cars, that will be a good thing. What would help is if the rules were very open to allow that space for crazy innovation that made F1 exciting when it was the combustion engine that was in its relative infancy.


I may be wrong, but I thought electric cars were very quick - their torque profile being almost linear from the get go...but their issue is longevity of that power. Full tilt drains the battery so quickly that racing becomes difficult....battery management being a prime consideration for the drivers.

Here's a thought: they could play the sound of a V12 engine over the electric motor....big grin if they do that :)


Their acceleration is respectable, but their top speed is 140mph. A 1.6 Volkswagen Golf does 124mph.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:01 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


I believe Norway and Sweden are banning the sales of new petrol and diesel cars from 2025 onward. This is somewhat more viable as they are smaller, more affluent countries. Living as close as I do to the M27, this can't come soon enough.

Anyway, this is good news for Fe. If I was running the series I'd run it like this

- No chassis or aero development what-so-ever. The challenge should be 100% focused on power storage and delivery. Want to keep costs down? Eliminate the need for any carbon fibre and wind tunnel facilities.

- Get rid of the 2 car system. Change batteries instead as that adds a technical challenge of making batteries which can be quickly changed.

- Race at proper circuits. Everyone came to a grinding halt at turn one in NY and bashed into each other, looked ridiculous.

- With the above 2 points in mind, strategy will come in to it more. At the moment, everyone makes one stop within a lap of each other. If you have longer distances and changeable batteries, do you go lighter with fewer batteries and more pit stops? This will put the emphasis on manufacturers to develop batteries and more efficient motors. The winners will be the ones who get the most power into the smallest, lightest batteries.

- F1 style elimination for qualy with a 2005 style twist. You start the race with the batteries you qualify on and you can't charge them once Q3 begins. Again, it mixes up strategy. Do you go for fewer batteries and a lighter car but stop earlier or do a long stint and keep track position later on.

- Get rid of fan boost and have a GP3 DRS style system. X number of hits per race.

I'd be all for this. But I do think points 1 and 2 are their intention (eventually)



Same here! We can even go for different spec batteries, like tires. Say you have a battery pack that is capable of being 1sec per lap faster but also drain faster and you can choose when to use it in the race, you then spec a tire that can last the race. A pit stop will be a battery swap not a tire swap, heck Audi replaced complete rear clips at LeMans!! Something similar is doable!!!

Can you imagine!! Teams changing complete power units/rear sections in 30 secs!!! I will pay to see that!! Two races within one, the one at the track and the one at the pit stop!!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didn't have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?

Clearly investment has to be made in infrastructure. In the Netherlands in the major cities you can barely move for charging points (well, maybe an exaggeration but the point is they are reasonably plentiful). And they are fairly cheap to top up your battery. Also, many garages have electric charging points and many companies even have a few guest spaces reserved for electric (or hybrid) vehicles. I was shocked when I went on a trip to the UK and found public charging points costing almost as much to "fill up" as a petrol car would. It's criminal exploitation. But in other northern European countries they already have far better infrastructure in place and this will only get better.



That will change with competition as does any commodity. Right now it's only a select number of people with the facilities but unlike petrol, there are many viable ways of generating electricity and any idiot can sell it.

Soon rival companies with pop up everywhere trying to make a quick buck from charging points and the price will come crashing down. Don't forget they wont need any oil tankers (and all the associated costs of drivers (who get paid a tonne for carrying hazardous material), maintenance, health and safety checks, the petrol they burn etc. etc.) or any petrol storage facilities (and the H&S nightmare which comes with that).

What we're looking at now is 1960s Pan Am, unrivaled luxury for the privileged elite. Give it 10 years and we'll have Ryanair and Easyjet.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didnt have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?


Some areas (normally the more affluent parts), have on street charging ports. Not enough to go full electric just yet though.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:12 pm 
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huggybear wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didnt have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?


Some areas (normally the more affluent parts), have on street charging ports. Not enough to go full electric just yet though.


That's a business problem that I'm sure a tech startup would love to solve. Instead of you going to the petrol/gas station, a company will send their mobile charging stations from city street to street to charge your car whilst you sleep.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:21 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didnt have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?


You design and build vehicles that can receive their energy very quickly and can run a few hundred kilometers on that "charge". The current gas-centric method is to go to a gas station and fill the tank with gasoline. Electric may not be the answer, it does have problems as you described. Personally I can think of alternate technologies not involving gasoline or batteries.

But this is the future direction for road vehicles, gas is now definitely on the way out. How long it takes and what technology will replace gasoline is not definite, but it will happen. And since this is the future, no auto manufacturer will ignore the writing on the wall and not pursue alternate power sources. So to see Mercedes drop DTM in favor of Formula WWE is just a good business decision, Mercedes do not want to go bankrupt in the future. All of the major auto manufacturers will do the same, slowly and gradually abandon gasoline powered racing series and transition towards racing series that involve technology in line with the future of road cars.

This is the future, you may miss the screaming engines and not like it, but change is inevitable, and it is better to embrace it than oppose it just because the past evokes nice memories. Once upon a time most people got very excited by horse racing, or racing schooners. But technology overtook those methods of transportation and now sailboat racing or horse racing are fringe sports where the majority of people don't give a rat's donkey.

A hundred years ago every village had a blacksmith, they were a profession with many practitioners. But the car wiped that out overnight and now you have to search hard to find a blacksmith.

Be intellectually honest and do not cling to the past or emotions just because you fear the future or do not understand it. The future may not be what you desire, but it will come to pass. Do not be the blacksmith.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:34 pm 
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Just to add, the implications of EV will save thousands of lives in terms of respiratory diseases for people living in built up areas.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Just to add, the implications of EV will save thousands of lives in terms of respiratory diseases for people living in built up areas.


Except that the vast majority of electricity is generated from coal.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Just to add, the implications of EV will save thousands of lives in terms of respiratory diseases for people living in built up areas.

Except that the vast majority of electricity is generated from coal.

Not true. It's not a majority of any sort, let alone a vast one. If you don't believe me, here are some sources from the industry:

https://www.iea.org/about/faqs/coal/ (from 2013, but it wasn't even a majority then)
https://www.worldcoal.org/coal/uses-coa ... lectricity (they say 41%)
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.ELC.COAL.ZS (this graph shows that it's about 40%, and not going up)

But even if a majority of current power was generated from coal, that won't be true by the time electric vehicles have replaced internal combustion. Solar is the fastest-growing form of power generation right now, and other clean energies are also rapidly replacing the older, dirtier forms. Solar power is - right now - cheaper than coal.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
Just to add, the implications of EV will save thousands of lives in terms of respiratory diseases for people living in built up areas.


Except that the vast majority of electricity is generated from coal.


Aside from the fact that it isn't, coal power stations aren't built anywhere near urban areas and as such we breath a tiny fraction of the pollutants they produce, compared to the hundreds of cars driving around our homes.

My Dad used to work in the coal power industry. Left because it was on the way out. Don't believe me, check out wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ed_Kingdom

We've gone from 12 active units last year to 9 this year and they'll pretty much all be gone in 8 years time. The future is a combination of solar, wind and nuclear.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:08 pm 
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I read something on this a couple of weeks back, but it was to dump diesel due to particles, but do away with petrol only vehicles. They could then charge from petrol and run electric in mandated zones. This sounded sensible, but to have electric only does not. I hope it is the way it has been presented that does not explain it properly.

Bus and council vehicles are no problem, they go to local deports to charge and operate in a usable range. Houses with garage or drive the same, and the facility to charge in carparks etc makes it manageable, but what about people who live in a block? 90 houses, maybe 150 cars? Where will they find space? I am OK I have a drive, but I would not like to leave a cable draped across the pavement all night if I did not.

Possibly there is a push to move people to uber style and automated shared electric cars? This could work if people accept it. I read somewhere that almost half the people living in London (not stipulated, how wide) would be in favour of this system, and a little more leverage would rise that %





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(I think) Volvo have said that by 2020 they will only produce electric and Hybrid, so straight ICE


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:54 am 
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moby wrote:
I read something on this a couple of weeks back, but it was to dump diesel due to particles, but do away with petrol only vehicles. They could then charge from petrol and run electric in mandated zones. This sounded sensible, but to have electric only does not. I hope it is the way it has been presented that does not explain it properly.

Bus and council vehicles are no problem, they go to local deports to charge and operate in a usable range. Houses with garage or drive the same, and the facility to charge in carparks etc makes it manageable, but what about people who live in a block? 90 houses, maybe 150 cars? Where will they find space? I am OK I have a drive, but I would not like to leave a cable draped across the pavement all night if I did not.

Possibly there is a push to move people to uber style and automated shared electric cars? This could work if people accept it. I read somewhere that almost half the people living in London (not stipulated, how wide) would be in favour of this system, and a little more leverage would rise that %





PS
(I think) Volvo have said that by 2020 they will only produce electric and Hybrid, so straight ICE


Plugging in from a main is just one of many methods to transfer electrical energy from the grid to an auto. But here is just on example of an application of today's technology. The entire storage system does not have to be a battery, it could instead be just 20% of the total day's requirement, a capacitor could store the rest of the energy. And instead of physical wires, an induction coil built into parts of the road could quickly transfer enough energy into the car. In fact, with a bluetooth type device, a car passing over such a strip would receive a charge, the system would log the amount of energy the customer "purchased", and be billed for it. You park your car anywhere, get in it, drive to the next destination, and along the way get frequent charges, and automatic billing.

Logitech just introduced it's "Powerplay Mouse Mat" where a wireless mouse never needs batteries, it picks up it's power from the mouse mat. The technology is there, it just needs to be scaled up and tweaked for automotive use.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:50 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
I read something on this a couple of weeks back, but it was to dump diesel due to particles, but do away with petrol only vehicles. They could then charge from petrol and run electric in mandated zones. This sounded sensible, but to have electric only does not. I hope it is the way it has been presented that does not explain it properly.

Bus and council vehicles are no problem, they go to local deports to charge and operate in a usable range. Houses with garage or drive the same, and the facility to charge in carparks etc makes it manageable, but what about people who live in a block? 90 houses, maybe 150 cars? Where will they find space? I am OK I have a drive, but I would not like to leave a cable draped across the pavement all night if I did not.

Possibly there is a push to move people to uber style and automated shared electric cars? This could work if people accept it. I read somewhere that almost half the people living in London (not stipulated, how wide) would be in favour of this system, and a little more leverage would rise that %





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(I think) Volvo have said that by 2020 they will only produce electric and Hybrid, so straight ICE


Plugging in from a main is just one of many methods to transfer electrical energy from the grid to an auto. But here is just on example of an application of today's technology. The entire storage system does not have to be a battery, it could instead be just 20% of the total day's requirement, a capacitor could store the rest of the energy. And instead of physical wires, an induction coil built into parts of the road could quickly transfer enough energy into the car. In fact, with a bluetooth type device, a car passing over such a strip would receive a charge, the system would log the amount of energy the customer "purchased", and be billed for it. You park your car anywhere, get in it, drive to the next destination, and along the way get frequent charges, and automatic billing.

Logitech just introduced it's "Powerplay Mouse Mat" where a wireless mouse never needs batteries, it picks up it's power from the mouse mat. The technology is there, it just needs to be scaled up and tweaked for automotive use.

The problem with wireless inductive charging is that it's inefficient. On the sort of scale mass automotive use would represent you'd be talking about a colossal waste of energy.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:52 am 
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Need wireless charging from those solar powered road surfaces. Now that would be cool.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:40 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Need wireless charging from those solar powered road surfaces. Now that would be cool.

That would be cool, and a great advertisement for the technology...

Except that there aren't any of those roads around yet, and you'd need to build permanent - and extremely expensive! - tracks for the cars to race on.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:45 am 
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wolfticket wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
I read something on this a couple of weeks back, but it was to dump diesel due to particles, but do away with petrol only vehicles. They could then charge from petrol and run electric in mandated zones. This sounded sensible, but to have electric only does not. I hope it is the way it has been presented that does not explain it properly.

Bus and council vehicles are no problem, they go to local deports to charge and operate in a usable range. Houses with garage or drive the same, and the facility to charge in carparks etc makes it manageable, but what about people who live in a block? 90 houses, maybe 150 cars? Where will they find space? I am OK I have a drive, but I would not like to leave a cable draped across the pavement all night if I did not.

Possibly there is a push to move people to uber style and automated shared electric cars? This could work if people accept it. I read somewhere that almost half the people living in London (not stipulated, how wide) would be in favour of this system, and a little more leverage would rise that %





PS
(I think) Volvo have said that by 2020 they will only produce electric and Hybrid, so straight ICE


Plugging in from a main is just one of many methods to transfer electrical energy from the grid to an auto. But here is just on example of an application of today's technology. The entire storage system does not have to be a battery, it could instead be just 20% of the total day's requirement, a capacitor could store the rest of the energy. And instead of physical wires, an induction coil built into parts of the road could quickly transfer enough energy into the car. In fact, with a bluetooth type device, a car passing over such a strip would receive a charge, the system would log the amount of energy the customer "purchased", and be billed for it. You park your car anywhere, get in it, drive to the next destination, and along the way get frequent charges, and automatic billing.

Logitech just introduced it's "Powerplay Mouse Mat" where a wireless mouse never needs batteries, it picks up it's power from the mouse mat. The technology is there, it just needs to be scaled up and tweaked for automotive use.

The problem with wireless inductive charging is that it's inefficient. On the sort of scale mass automotive use would represent you'd be talking about a colossal waste of energy.


Agreed, at present it is very inefficient. But my point is that this method is an alternative to fixed charging stations and physical connections. So today's engineers are probably exploring alternatives to charging stations.

No one knows what will be the common standard twenty years from now. It may be fixed charging stations, it may be new infrastructure to support more charging stations. Even the storage method is unknown, advances in technology may make capacitors, hydrogen, solar, or something we have not even though of yet.

But one thing is obvious, the traditional gasoline or diesel powered car is on the way out, it is just a matter of time. Auto manufacturers look five or more years ahead for the next styling or technology trend, and they also project as far into the future as possible. What we have as auto racing may continue because of advertising purposes, but the auto manufacturers will gravitate to racing series that embrace what they believe will be the car of tomorrow.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:13 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didnt have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?


I think the plan is to force manufacturers to find a better solution for all. Poster above makes some great points about how to structure Formula E for carry over benefits- force them to get as much power in to as small a battery as possible, and make the batteries very easy to change over.

Elon Musk proposed the hand over a battery, get handed a new one way as the replacement for current petrol stations. There may be a better way than that, but really it's all going to boil down to making the cars go an incredible distance on one battery & making a power up within a minute possible (either super duper amazing charge speeds beyond our imagination, or make the batteries easy to quickly switch out).


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:03 am 
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So its solar panels on the car roof then :D




Was just reading of a new type of battery-

(http://www.zdnet.com/article/korean-scientists-develop-fast-charging-battery/ and (http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-economics-of-lithium-ion-battery-pricing/)

Now, all the electrodes of the battery will be able to recharge simultaneously whereas conventional batteries' electrodes can be charged starting from the outermost particles in. This cuts down charging time for the new battery to between 1/30 and 1/120 of existing rechargeable lithium-ion batteries..

The view into current and anticipated advances suggest that capacity will improve by 80 percent to 110 percent by the 2020 to 2025 timeframe...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:34 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's all going to go there in my lifetime. UK has been new petrol & diesel car sales from 2040 onwards, I believe some other countries are being even more aggressive than this.


How do people who live in cities use electric cars? It's very easy to charge a car when all you have to do is drive up to your garage, park, and plug in. When I lived in a city, I didnt have a garage and so parked on public streets, just like tens of thousands of other people do. Often, my car was 3-4 blocks from my house. How do you charge a car when that is your living situation?


Yeah, absolutely. As it happens I do have a drive and a garage, but I've lived places before where I didn't and like you couldn't even guarantee to be able to park on the same street as I lived. Actually a lot of people have this situation, and it's going to be a major hurdle. Unfortunately, in the rush to advance technology, reality is being ignored...

As for the $4m budget for formula e, I wonder how long that will last. Honestly, you can see a mile off what's going to happen here. All the manufacturers want to play, then once they are all in they will start making demands about how they are going to leave and how thy can't possibly spend less than $100m if they want to develop the tech... the governing body will capitulate as always.

It's interesting that they chose to make formula e a sort of F1 lite design, you'd think they could have come up with something a bit better really. As it is it looks like a rubbish F1 with silly mudguards.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:40 am 
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ALESI wrote:
It's interesting that they chose to make formula e a sort of F1 lite design, you'd think they could have come up with something a bit better really. As it is it looks like a rubbish F1 with silly mudguards.

They're not trying to be anything like F1. They've set themselves apart from the start

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:44 am 
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What are the feelings here about a saloon/touring car version of FE? I think it has to come.
Maybe a standard roadgoing car and 'allowed mods'?


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