planetf1.com

It is currently Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:30 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2215
RaggedMan wrote:
ALESI wrote:
kleefton wrote:

Yes, I do know that but this is one message that HAS to be broadcasted, for entertainment value if anything else. It wasn't broadcasted because it just was never relayed.

And of course Lewis was allowed to turn the engine up, and that message was clearly broadcasted, what do you think strat mode 3 is?


I thought Strat Mode 3 was the one for playing Smoke on the Water...

It's not like crucial radio messages haven't been broadcast before is it? I swear the broadcasters are given a random assortment of messages with scant regard to their importance or pertinence.

Nah. Strat Mode 3 would be the middle pickup only and I think that riff probably uses the middle and bridge pickups out of phase which would be either Mode 2 or 4 depending on which end of the selector you start counting from. ;)


2 then I should say...

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 8522
F1_Ernie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Prema wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Well, according to James Allen...

Under Toto Wolff, Mercedes goes racing with emotion, but also has a clear “team-first” policy, where they will act in the team’s interests, not the individual driver’s. They are used to it now after three years of Rosberg and Hamilton and both current Mercedes drivers have a chance still in the championship, so they ensured that a deal proposed to Valtteri Bottas during the race by Hamilton, was honoured.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... y-defined/

He goes on to say what if Lewis loses the title by three points... equally you could argue what if Bottas wins it by three points from Vettel?

I was surprised to see the swap-back since they had a good excuse/explanation for not doing it. They asked Bottas to be closer up, he didn't manage it out of whatever reasons (he complained about back-markers) andhe let Max come close on him.

In any case, this proposition of "what if Bottas wins", I find it more a "smartass" rhetorical than a practical argument. To be a smartass myself... hey, that would still include Hamilton losing the title, but to his teammate the newcomer. And that within not 3 but 6 points! Go and digest that, Mr. Hamilton. :o


One DNF (like the one Bottas had, remember) and Bottas is ahead in the Championship... if anything Merc's 'problem' is that Bottas is doing too well and not falling into a nice easy number two position (like that Finnish bloke). Though I must say I'm surprised that Merc didn't give Bottas a year on a 'supporting role' contract, with a view to earning a proper contract later on... maybe Rosberg's late in the day retirement meant Bottas was in a stronger position, or maybe they didn't really think Bottas would be that close to Hamilton, and maybe Hamilton didn't want a number two?

It's kind of weird when you think about it, that Bottas has had a DNF and he's still only 19 points behind. Considering if you believe everything you read on here that Hamilton has him in his pocket.


Well the headrest issue could have something to do that, Hamilton lost a lot of points that day and Bottas gained a lot after his bad 1st lap racing. Cars literally fell away and it was one of those days he got really lucky.

Bottas is doing well especially in qualifying but his race pace has been pretty poor, in nearly every Grand Prix he has a stint were he is too slow on a particular tyre. I would be amazed if a driver could beat two of the best with race pace like that unless they get extreme lucky


Indeed, my feeling as well and why Hamilton needs to get his head down the next 2-3 races and qualify ahead of Bottas. Bottas hasn't got the race speed or consistent qualifying speed to win the title over both Vettel and Hamilton, Mercedes surely know this but are quite regimented in there equal treatment approach. Bottas has only been in the hunt for 2 race wins in 11. He isn't strong enough to win this title unless he gets a whole lot of luck from two drivers. Hamilton can win this title, he just needs to qualify ahead of Bottas at very least 2/3 of the time in the remaining races and the rest should take care of its self, bad luck permitting or a major Ferrari comeback.

Hamilton's 1 lap pace is only untouchable in slightly less than half the tracks, about 1/4 he is solid on and about 1/4 weak. That has been the pattern of his career and Nico and Jenson both did well at the same tracks against Hamilton.

I think if Lewis can win the next 2 races (two historically strong tracks for him) and make it 6-2 in wins against Bottas and a 35+ point gap he will become the number 1 driver going into the last 7 races and Singapore where Mercedes will likely take pain in the title race. If the Mercedes has a car advantage at these tracks, the races will be decided in qualifying I suspect.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 8819
kleefton wrote:
ALESI wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:


They didn't ensure that the deal would be honored though. Not a word came from the pitwall to order Hamilton to give the place back. It was Hamilton's decision to honor his word that made the swap happen. I'm not so sure that Mercedes is totally happy that Hamilton gave the place back. They may say so in public, but they all know that in the grand scheme of things they conceded 3 points in the driver's championshp battle. I understand why Hamilton did it, and it was the right thing for him to do, but Mercedes as a team would like to avoid that scenario at all costs. Should the same situation arise later on this season, I doubt we will see a swap back.

Well, according to Wolff they determined the best place on the pitwall:

TW: When Lewis passed Valtteri it seemed that Lewis’s pace was quicker and we weren’t quite sure whether Valtteri was managing the gap to the Ferraris because the moment you come close you ruin your tyres, so he stayed a bit behind. In that situation Lewis thought that he could go quicker and was saying "give me a shot!", and he passed. Lewis was not able to pass [Raikkonen] so in the last couple of laps we had discussions internally how we could swap Valtteri back again as Verstappen was getting closer and we didn’t want to lose the podium. So we discussed the gaps and where the right place for the swap would be. The idea was the last lap into the last corner because that would limit any overtaking opportunities from behind. There have not been any similar discussions – it was a very sportsmanlike behaviour – to Valtteri before. It was a very difficult call for the team and of course very difficult for Lewis.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/inte ... -call.html


Right, so it was discussed internally. So how was that message communicated to Lewis exactly? Telepathy? I mean, no message was broadcasted, commentators didn't see the swap coming, nobody saw it coming. Toto is just FOS here imo. The video of him reacting after the swap pretty much confirms that he didn't agree with what Lewis did.


You do know that not every radio message is broadcast don't you?

While we're on the subject of commentators, they also said that Lewis would be allowed to turn everything up to eleven in his quest to pass Kimi, which could explain how he managed to pull away from Bottas. Assuming we're taking everything they say as gospel, which we absolutely shouldn't because as you say, they are FOS.


Yes, I do know that but this is one message that HAS to be broadcasted, for entertainment value if anything else. It wasn't broadcasted because it just was never relayed.

And of course Lewis was allowed to turn the engine up, and that message was clearly broadcasted, what do you think strat mode 3 is?

I think you´re reaching here. We didn´t hear the communication between Bottas and the team regarding letting Lewis by either but obviously they did communicate as they were able to tell Lewis where the swap will be done (which in turn was broadcast).

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 8522
ALESI wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its the only time I can ever remember a driver who was involved in a title fight letting his team mate through (who had less points than him). I think it is a first. That is why a big deal has been made of it. But I agree it was somewhat blown out of proportion but possibly rightly so given Hamilton has won a title by 1 point, lost one by 1 point and lost the last one by 5 points. Journalists already have the headlines written if he loses this title by less than 3 points...

While Bottas does have an outside chance at the title, he has been in contention for just 2 race wins all year whilst his team mate has challenged for 7 wins. A Bottas title would require quite a lot of bad luck from both Vettel and Hamilton and a change in his speed too.


BIB
Monaco 2016? Rosberg letting Hamilton past?


Imagine if Hamilton had won the title because Rosberg let him by...


Good catch, forgot that one in Monaco - although Lewis was over 4 seconds per lap quicker at that point so its a bit of an anomaly.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3424
lamo wrote:
ALESI wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its the only time I can ever remember a driver who was involved in a title fight letting his team mate through (who had less points than him). I think it is a first. That is why a big deal has been made of it. But I agree it was somewhat blown out of proportion but possibly rightly so given Hamilton has won a title by 1 point, lost one by 1 point and lost the last one by 5 points. Journalists already have the headlines written if he loses this title by less than 3 points...

While Bottas does have an outside chance at the title, he has been in contention for just 2 race wins all year whilst his team mate has challenged for 7 wins. A Bottas title would require quite a lot of bad luck from both Vettel and Hamilton and a change in his speed too.


BIB
Monaco 2016? Rosberg letting Hamilton past?


Imagine if Hamilton had won the title because Rosberg let him by...


Good catch, forgot that one in Monaco - although Lewis was over 4 seconds per lap quicker at that point so its a bit of an anomaly.


More like 2-2 and a half. Rosberg only lost the other couple of seconds on the lap he moved over.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2770
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Well, according to James Allen...

Under Toto Wolff, Mercedes goes racing with emotion, but also has a clear “team-first” policy, where they will act in the team’s interests, not the individual driver’s. They are used to it now after three years of Rosberg and Hamilton and both current Mercedes drivers have a chance still in the championship, so they ensured that a deal proposed to Valtteri Bottas during the race by Hamilton, was honoured.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... y-defined/

He goes on to say what if Lewis loses the title by three points... equally you could argue what if Bottas wins it by three points from Vettel?



They didn't ensure that the deal would be honored though. Not a word came from the pitwall to order Hamilton to give the place back. It was Hamilton's decision to honor his word that made the swap happen. I'm not so sure that Mercedes is totally happy that Hamilton gave the place back. They may say so in public, but they all know that in the grand scheme of things they conceded 3 points in the driver's championshp battle. I understand why Hamilton did it, and it was the right thing for him to do, but Mercedes as a team would like to avoid that scenario at all costs. Should the same situation arise later on this season, I doubt we will see a swap back.

Well, according to Wolff they determined the best place on the pitwall:

TW: When Lewis passed Valtteri it seemed that Lewis’s pace was quicker and we weren’t quite sure whether Valtteri was managing the gap to the Ferraris because the moment you come close you ruin your tyres, so he stayed a bit behind. In that situation Lewis thought that he could go quicker and was saying "give me a shot!", and he passed. Lewis was not able to pass [Raikkonen] so in the last couple of laps we had discussions internally how we could swap Valtteri back again as Verstappen was getting closer and we didn’t want to lose the podium. So we discussed the gaps and where the right place for the swap would be. The idea was the last lap into the last corner because that would limit any overtaking opportunities from behind. There have not been any similar discussions – it was a very sportsmanlike behaviour – to Valtteri before. It was a very difficult call for the team and of course very difficult for Lewis.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/inte ... -call.html


Right, so it was discussed internally. So how was that message communicated to Lewis exactly? Telepathy? I mean, no message was broadcasted, commentators didn't see the swap coming, nobody saw it coming. Toto is just FOS here imo. The video of him reacting after the swap pretty much confirms that he didn't agree with what Lewis did.

Well here's another version of the interview:

"So we advised him about the gap and discussed where the right place would be and decided it would be last lap into the last corner, because that would limit the overtaking opportunities for Verstappen. So he backed up and there wasn't any discussion."

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/287454/1/call-to-swap-hamilton-and-bottas-extremely-difficult-wolff

So it seems clear from the "we advised him" that they were communicating with Hamilton. As has been discussed, not every message is broadcast. It's possible he's lying, of course, but I don't see what his motivation would be?



Fair enough. I will be looking for it in the radio transcripts whenever they are published then.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 12049
kleefton wrote:


Fair enough. I will be looking for it in the radio transcripts whenever they are published then.


The radio transcripts published are only a notation of all transmissions broadcast across all platforms. A long way from being all radio communication.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:53 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Maryland, USA
lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Prema wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Well, according to James Allen...

Under Toto Wolff, Mercedes goes racing with emotion, but also has a clear “team-first” policy, where they will act in the team’s interests, not the individual driver’s. They are used to it now after three years of Rosberg and Hamilton and both current Mercedes drivers have a chance still in the championship, so they ensured that a deal proposed to Valtteri Bottas during the race by Hamilton, was honoured.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... y-defined/

He goes on to say what if Lewis loses the title by three points... equally you could argue what if Bottas wins it by three points from Vettel?

I was surprised to see the swap-back since they had a good excuse/explanation for not doing it. They asked Bottas to be closer up, he didn't manage it out of whatever reasons (he complained about back-markers) andhe let Max come close on him.

In any case, this proposition of "what if Bottas wins", I find it more a "smartass" rhetorical than a practical argument. To be a smartass myself... hey, that would still include Hamilton losing the title, but to his teammate the newcomer. And that within not 3 but 6 points! Go and digest that, Mr. Hamilton. :o



One DNF (like the one Bottas had, remember) and Bottas is ahead in the Championship... if anything Merc's 'problem' is that Bottas is doing too well and not falling into a nice easy number two position (like that Finnish bloke). Though I must say I'm surprised that Merc didn't give Bottas a year on a 'supporting role' contract, with a view to earning a proper contract later on... maybe Rosberg's late in the day retirement meant Bottas was in a stronger position, or maybe they didn't really think Bottas would be that close to Hamilton, and maybe Hamilton didn't want a number two?

It's kind of weird when you think about it, that Bottas has had a DNF and he's still only 19 points behind. Considering if you believe everything you read on here that Hamilton has him in his pocket.


Well the headrest issue could have something to do that, Hamilton lost a lot of points that day and Bottas gained a lot after his bad 1st lap racing. Cars literally fell away and it was one of those days he got really lucky.

Bottas is doing well especially in qualifying but his race pace has been pretty poor, in nearly every Grand Prix he has a stint were he is too slow on a particular tyre. I would be amazed if a driver could beat two of the best with race pace like that unless they get extreme lucky


Indeed, my feeling as well and why Hamilton needs to get his head down the next 2-3 races and qualify ahead of Bottas. Bottas hasn't got the race speed or consistent qualifying speed to win the title over both Vettel and Hamilton, Mercedes surely know this but are quite regimented in there equal treatment approach. Bottas has only been in the hunt for 2 race wins in 11. He isn't strong enough to win this title unless he gets a whole lot of luck from two drivers. Hamilton can win this title, he just needs to qualify ahead of Bottas at very least 2/3 of the time in the remaining races and the rest should take care of its self, bad luck permitting or a major Ferrari comeback.

Hamilton's 1 lap pace is only untouchable in slightly less than half the tracks, about 1/4 he is solid on and about 1/4 weak. That has been the pattern of his career and Nico and Jenson both did well at the same tracks against Hamilton.

I think if Lewis can win the next 2 races (two historically strong tracks for him) and make it 6-2 in wins against Bottas and a 35+ point gap he will become the number 1 driver going into the last 7 races and Singapore where Mercedes will likely take pain in the title race. If the Mercedes has a car advantage at these tracks, the races will be decided in qualifying I suspect.


Good post, but it still amazes me that Lewis has to do something prospectively to "become the number 1 driver" on this team given the driver's resumes, tenure with the team and relative race pace, not to the mention Ferrari's pace.... mind boggling to me.

_________________
Case


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:53 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Maryland, USA
lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Prema wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Well, according to James Allen...

Under Toto Wolff, Mercedes goes racing with emotion, but also has a clear “team-first” policy, where they will act in the team’s interests, not the individual driver’s. They are used to it now after three years of Rosberg and Hamilton and both current Mercedes drivers have a chance still in the championship, so they ensured that a deal proposed to Valtteri Bottas during the race by Hamilton, was honoured.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... y-defined/

He goes on to say what if Lewis loses the title by three points... equally you could argue what if Bottas wins it by three points from Vettel?

I was surprised to see the swap-back since they had a good excuse/explanation for not doing it. They asked Bottas to be closer up, he didn't manage it out of whatever reasons (he complained about back-markers) andhe let Max come close on him.

In any case, this proposition of "what if Bottas wins", I find it more a "smartass" rhetorical than a practical argument. To be a smartass myself... hey, that would still include Hamilton losing the title, but to his teammate the newcomer. And that within not 3 but 6 points! Go and digest that, Mr. Hamilton. :o



One DNF (like the one Bottas had, remember) and Bottas is ahead in the Championship... if anything Merc's 'problem' is that Bottas is doing too well and not falling into a nice easy number two position (like that Finnish bloke). Though I must say I'm surprised that Merc didn't give Bottas a year on a 'supporting role' contract, with a view to earning a proper contract later on... maybe Rosberg's late in the day retirement meant Bottas was in a stronger position, or maybe they didn't really think Bottas would be that close to Hamilton, and maybe Hamilton didn't want a number two?

It's kind of weird when you think about it, that Bottas has had a DNF and he's still only 19 points behind. Considering if you believe everything you read on here that Hamilton has him in his pocket.


Well the headrest issue could have something to do that, Hamilton lost a lot of points that day and Bottas gained a lot after his bad 1st lap racing. Cars literally fell away and it was one of those days he got really lucky.

Bottas is doing well especially in qualifying but his race pace has been pretty poor, in nearly every Grand Prix he has a stint were he is too slow on a particular tyre. I would be amazed if a driver could beat two of the best with race pace like that unless they get extreme lucky


Indeed, my feeling as well and why Hamilton needs to get his head down the next 2-3 races and qualify ahead of Bottas. Bottas hasn't got the race speed or consistent qualifying speed to win the title over both Vettel and Hamilton, Mercedes surely know this but are quite regimented in there equal treatment approach. Bottas has only been in the hunt for 2 race wins in 11. He isn't strong enough to win this title unless he gets a whole lot of luck from two drivers. Hamilton can win this title, he just needs to qualify ahead of Bottas at very least 2/3 of the time in the remaining races and the rest should take care of its self, bad luck permitting or a major Ferrari comeback.

Hamilton's 1 lap pace is only untouchable in slightly less than half the tracks, about 1/4 he is solid on and about 1/4 weak. That has been the pattern of his career and Nico and Jenson both did well at the same tracks against Hamilton.

I think if Lewis can win the next 2 races (two historically strong tracks for him) and make it 6-2 in wins against Bottas and a 35+ point gap he will become the number 1 driver going into the last 7 races and Singapore where Mercedes will likely take pain in the title race. If the Mercedes has a car advantage at these tracks, the races will be decided in qualifying I suspect.


Good post, but it still amazes me that Lewis has to do something prospectively to "become the number 1 driver" on this team given the driver's resumes, tenure with the team and relative race pace, not to the mention Ferrari's pace.... mind boggling to me.

_________________
Case


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:53 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Maryland, USA
lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Prema wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Well, according to James Allen...

Under Toto Wolff, Mercedes goes racing with emotion, but also has a clear “team-first” policy, where they will act in the team’s interests, not the individual driver’s. They are used to it now after three years of Rosberg and Hamilton and both current Mercedes drivers have a chance still in the championship, so they ensured that a deal proposed to Valtteri Bottas during the race by Hamilton, was honoured.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... y-defined/

He goes on to say what if Lewis loses the title by three points... equally you could argue what if Bottas wins it by three points from Vettel?

I was surprised to see the swap-back since they had a good excuse/explanation for not doing it. They asked Bottas to be closer up, he didn't manage it out of whatever reasons (he complained about back-markers) andhe let Max come close on him.

In any case, this proposition of "what if Bottas wins", I find it more a "smartass" rhetorical than a practical argument. To be a smartass myself... hey, that would still include Hamilton losing the title, but to his teammate the newcomer. And that within not 3 but 6 points! Go and digest that, Mr. Hamilton. :o



One DNF (like the one Bottas had, remember) and Bottas is ahead in the Championship... if anything Merc's 'problem' is that Bottas is doing too well and not falling into a nice easy number two position (like that Finnish bloke). Though I must say I'm surprised that Merc didn't give Bottas a year on a 'supporting role' contract, with a view to earning a proper contract later on... maybe Rosberg's late in the day retirement meant Bottas was in a stronger position, or maybe they didn't really think Bottas would be that close to Hamilton, and maybe Hamilton didn't want a number two?

It's kind of weird when you think about it, that Bottas has had a DNF and he's still only 19 points behind. Considering if you believe everything you read on here that Hamilton has him in his pocket.


Well the headrest issue could have something to do that, Hamilton lost a lot of points that day and Bottas gained a lot after his bad 1st lap racing. Cars literally fell away and it was one of those days he got really lucky.

Bottas is doing well especially in qualifying but his race pace has been pretty poor, in nearly every Grand Prix he has a stint were he is too slow on a particular tyre. I would be amazed if a driver could beat two of the best with race pace like that unless they get extreme lucky


Indeed, my feeling as well and why Hamilton needs to get his head down the next 2-3 races and qualify ahead of Bottas. Bottas hasn't got the race speed or consistent qualifying speed to win the title over both Vettel and Hamilton, Mercedes surely know this but are quite regimented in there equal treatment approach. Bottas has only been in the hunt for 2 race wins in 11. He isn't strong enough to win this title unless he gets a whole lot of luck from two drivers. Hamilton can win this title, he just needs to qualify ahead of Bottas at very least 2/3 of the time in the remaining races and the rest should take care of its self, bad luck permitting or a major Ferrari comeback.

Hamilton's 1 lap pace is only untouchable in slightly less than half the tracks, about 1/4 he is solid on and about 1/4 weak. That has been the pattern of his career and Nico and Jenson both did well at the same tracks against Hamilton.

I think if Lewis can win the next 2 races (two historically strong tracks for him) and make it 6-2 in wins against Bottas and a 35+ point gap he will become the number 1 driver going into the last 7 races and Singapore where Mercedes will likely take pain in the title race. If the Mercedes has a car advantage at these tracks, the races will be decided in qualifying I suspect.


Good post, but it still amazes me that Lewis has to do something prospectively to "become the number 1 driver" on this team given the driver's resumes, tenure with the team and relative race pace, not to the mention Ferrari's pace.... mind boggling.

_________________
Case


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6529
Case1906 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Indeed, my feeling as well and why Hamilton needs to get his head down the next 2-3 races and qualify ahead of Bottas. Bottas hasn't got the race speed or consistent qualifying speed to win the title over both Vettel and Hamilton, Mercedes surely know this but are quite regimented in there equal treatment approach. Bottas has only been in the hunt for 2 race wins in 11. He isn't strong enough to win this title unless he gets a whole lot of luck from two drivers. Hamilton can win this title, he just needs to qualify ahead of Bottas at very least 2/3 of the time in the remaining races and the rest should take care of its self, bad luck permitting or a major Ferrari comeback.

Hamilton's 1 lap pace is only untouchable in slightly less than half the tracks, about 1/4 he is solid on and about 1/4 weak. That has been the pattern of his career and Nico and Jenson both did well at the same tracks against Hamilton.

I think if Lewis can win the next 2 races (two historically strong tracks for him) and make it 6-2 in wins against Bottas and a 35+ point gap he will become the number 1 driver going into the last 7 races and Singapore where Mercedes will likely take pain in the title race. If the Mercedes has a car advantage at these tracks, the races will be decided in qualifying I suspect.


Good post, but it still amazes me that Lewis has to do something prospectively to "become the number 1 driver" on this team given the driver's resumes, tenure with the team and relative race pace, not to the mention Ferrari's pace.... mind boggling.


I believe the difference would be in the degree of being that number 1 driver. More direct. Such as Bottas dutifully conceding his place to Hamilton regardless of him being slower or not. Such as not seeing this swap-back scenarios anymore, to start with at least.
Mercedes, likewise Ferrari, do not want it be seen as an open policy in place. A bad PR. But they might have to, they might.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2215
Case1906 wrote:
Good post, but it still amazes me that Lewis has to do something prospectively to "become the number 1 driver" on this team given the driver's resumes, tenure with the team and relative race pace, not to the mention Ferrari's pace.... mind boggling.


Agreed, albeit, you'd think Hamilton would be hammering Bottas anyway, but the points table doesn't reflect this. Let's not forget a lot of people assumed Bottas wasn't going to be that much of a threat because he didn't 'crush' Massa like people thought he should have. Personally I think Massa is underrated.

I don't actually think Bottas would have had a problem with being Hamilton's support driver, at least for this year... but Merc and Lewis' previous comments in the media about allowing the drivers to race for the good of the sport and not wanting 'Number one' status might come back to haunt them.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1515
lamo wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Prema wrote:
ALESI wrote:
Well, according to James Allen...

Under Toto Wolff, Mercedes goes racing with emotion, but also has a clear “team-first” policy, where they will act in the team’s interests, not the individual driver’s. They are used to it now after three years of Rosberg and Hamilton and both current Mercedes drivers have a chance still in the championship, so they ensured that a deal proposed to Valtteri Bottas during the race by Hamilton, was honoured.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... y-defined/

He goes on to say what if Lewis loses the title by three points... equally you could argue what if Bottas wins it by three points from Vettel?

I was surprised to see the swap-back since they had a good excuse/explanation for not doing it. They asked Bottas to be closer up, he didn't manage it out of whatever reasons (he complained about back-markers) andhe let Max come close on him.

In any case, this proposition of "what if Bottas wins", I find it more a "smartass" rhetorical than a practical argument. To be a smartass myself... hey, that would still include Hamilton losing the title, but to his teammate the newcomer. And that within not 3 but 6 points! Go and digest that, Mr. Hamilton. :o


One DNF (like the one Bottas had, remember) and Bottas is ahead in the Championship... if anything Merc's 'problem' is that Bottas is doing too well and not falling into a nice easy number two position (like that Finnish bloke). Though I must say I'm surprised that Merc didn't give Bottas a year on a 'supporting role' contract, with a view to earning a proper contract later on... maybe Rosberg's late in the day retirement meant Bottas was in a stronger position, or maybe they didn't really think Bottas would be that close to Hamilton, and maybe Hamilton didn't want a number two?

It's kind of weird when you think about it, that Bottas has had a DNF and he's still only 19 points behind. Considering if you believe everything you read on here that Hamilton has him in his pocket.


Well the headrest issue could have something to do that, Hamilton lost a lot of points that day and Bottas gained a lot after his bad 1st lap racing. Cars literally fell away and it was one of those days he got really lucky.

Bottas is doing well especially in qualifying but his race pace has been pretty poor, in nearly every Grand Prix he has a stint were he is too slow on a particular tyre. I would be amazed if a driver could beat two of the best with race pace like that unless they get extreme lucky


Indeed, my feeling as well and why Hamilton needs to get his head down the next 2-3 races and qualify ahead of Bottas. Bottas hasn't got the race speed or consistent qualifying speed to win the title over both Vettel and Hamilton, Mercedes surely know this but are quite regimented in there equal treatment approach. Bottas has only been in the hunt for 2 race wins in 11. He isn't strong enough to win this title unless he gets a whole lot of luck from two drivers. Hamilton can win this title, he just needs to qualify ahead of Bottas at very least 2/3 of the time in the remaining races and the rest should take care of its self, bad luck permitting or a major Ferrari comeback.

Hamilton's 1 lap pace is only untouchable in slightly less than half the tracks, about 1/4 he is solid on and about 1/4 weak. That has been the pattern of his career and Nico and Jenson both did well at the same tracks against Hamilton.

I think if Lewis can win the next 2 races (two historically strong tracks for him) and make it 6-2 in wins against Bottas and a 35+ point gap he will become the number 1 driver going into the last 7 races and Singapore where Mercedes will likely take pain in the title race. If the Mercedes has a car advantage at these tracks, the races will be decided in qualifying I suspect.


What if the Mercedes becomes the dominant car again?
Vettel may start getting a lot of 3rd places.
The driver's Championship could end up a Mercedes contest.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:32 am 
Online

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 941
A page on F1 Fanatic has reminded me of a very similar team order to Hamilton getting let by and also giving the position back if he didn't gain any positions. Kvyat and Ricciardo in Monaco 2015. I think it was because they were on different strategies but even though Kvyat qualified behind, Ricciardo anded up being behind later in the race. The team said to Kvyat on lap 73 that he should let Ricciardo by. He did so. In just 4 laps, the gap between Ricciardo grew to about 6 seconds. The team did want him to return the position back if he couldn't get past Hamilton. So on the final lap, he did return it to Kvyat. If he didn't return it, Ricciardo would have been 7th in the championship with 94 points and Kvyat would have been 8th with 93. But just like in Hungary, it was because of the slower driver moving over that gave the faster driver the chance to get more points. Both failed to gain, so swapped back round. It may affect the championship for Hamilton, but it is only fair that he returned the position as it is highly unlikely that he could have got past Bottas without team orders and it is his own fault he did worse than Bottas in qualifying and started behind.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2770
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
A page on F1 Fanatic has reminded me of a very similar team order to Hamilton getting let by and also giving the position back if he didn't gain any positions. Kvyat and Ricciardo in Monaco 2015. I think it was because they were on different strategies but even though Kvyat qualified behind, Ricciardo anded up being behind later in the race. The team said to Kvyat on lap 73 that he should let Ricciardo by. He did so. In just 4 laps, the gap between Ricciardo grew to about 6 seconds. The team did want him to return the position back if he couldn't get past Hamilton. So on the final lap, he did return it to Kvyat. If he didn't return it, Ricciardo would have been 7th in the championship with 94 points and Kvyat would have been 8th with 93. But just like in Hungary, it was because of the slower driver moving over that gave the faster driver the chance to get more points. Both failed to gain, so swapped back round. It may affect the championship for Hamilton, but it is only fair that he returned the position as it is highly unlikely that he could have got past Bottas without team orders and it is his own fault he did worse than Bottas in qualifying and started behind.


Yeah the second half of the season might be more about Bottas vs Hamilton than Vettel vs hamilton to be honest. I don't think the Ferrari will be as fast or faster than the Merc at the remaining tracks except Singapore. If Hamilton wants to win the title, out qualifying and out starting Bottas will be crucial. Of course, if I turn out to be wrong and the Ferrari is more competitive, Vettel will be the favorite for the title, because there is no intra team battle at Ferrari.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 8522
If Vettel wins Singapore in a Ferrari 1-2 and finishes 3rd every race he will still be very much in the title race until the final 2-3 races even if Mercedes 1-2 every race, unless its Hamilton winning like 5 out of 6 of those 1-2's then Hamilton will have an approx 20-25 point lead over Vettel going into the final races. If Hamilton won 2 and Bottas 4 we would have approximately a 3 way points tie going into the final 2-3 races.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 937
kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
A page on F1 Fanatic has reminded me of a very similar team order to Hamilton getting let by and also giving the position back if he didn't gain any positions. Kvyat and Ricciardo in Monaco 2015. I think it was because they were on different strategies but even though Kvyat qualified behind, Ricciardo anded up being behind later in the race. The team said to Kvyat on lap 73 that he should let Ricciardo by. He did so. In just 4 laps, the gap between Ricciardo grew to about 6 seconds. The team did want him to return the position back if he couldn't get past Hamilton. So on the final lap, he did return it to Kvyat. If he didn't return it, Ricciardo would have been 7th in the championship with 94 points and Kvyat would have been 8th with 93. But just like in Hungary, it was because of the slower driver moving over that gave the faster driver the chance to get more points. Both failed to gain, so swapped back round. It may affect the championship for Hamilton, but it is only fair that he returned the position as it is highly unlikely that he could have got past Bottas without team orders and it is his own fault he did worse than Bottas in qualifying and started behind.


Yeah the second half of the season might be more about Bottas vs Hamilton than Vettel vs hamilton to be honest. I don't think the Ferrari will be as fast or faster than the Merc at the remaining tracks except Singapore. If Hamilton wants to win the title, out qualifying and out starting Bottas will be crucial. Of course, if I turn out to be wrong and the Ferrari is more competitive, Vettel will be the favorite for the title, because there is no intra team battle at Ferrari.


A shock might be in the offering for Spa, lots of assumptions being made, Ferrari's floor which hampered them at Silverstone after the directive has been revised and was used at Hungary.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 5385
All this talk of if Lewis loses by three points or if Valtteri wins by three. Surely it's going to be uncomfortable if Hamilton loses by just one point or if Bottas wins by one. Or are we saying that Valtteri has to beat everyone else by at least four points to be a worthy champion this year?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2215
flyboy10 wrote:
All this talk of if Lewis loses by three points or if Valtteri wins by three. Surely it's going to be uncomfortable if Hamilton loses by just one point or if Bottas wins by one. Or are we saying that Valtteri has to beat everyone else by at least four points to be a worthy champion this year?


I don't think so... there's seems a misconception that Hamilton 'GAVE' these points to Bottas. He was never in front on merit anyway, faster or not (since when was being faster on track more important than track position anyway?).

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:12 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 5760
Location: Nebraska, USA
ALESI wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
All this talk of if Lewis loses by three points or if Valtteri wins by three. Surely it's going to be uncomfortable if Hamilton loses by just one point or if Bottas wins by one. Or are we saying that Valtteri has to beat everyone else by at least four points to be a worthy champion this year?


I don't think so... there's seems a misconception that Hamilton 'GAVE' these points to Bottas. He was never in front on merit anyway, faster or not (since when was being faster on track more important than track position anyway?).

I will second that comment. Those points were earned by Bottas by virtue of being legitimately ahead of Lewis until until he followed Team Orders... no "gift" to Bottas at all.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 12049
Blake wrote:
ALESI wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
All this talk of if Lewis loses by three points or if Valtteri wins by three. Surely it's going to be uncomfortable if Hamilton loses by just one point or if Bottas wins by one. Or are we saying that Valtteri has to beat everyone else by at least four points to be a worthy champion this year?


I don't think so... there's seems a misconception that Hamilton 'GAVE' these points to Bottas. He was never in front on merit anyway, faster or not (since when was being faster on track more important than track position anyway?).

I will second that comment. Those points were earned by Bottas by virtue of being legitimately ahead of Lewis until until he followed Team Orders... no "gift" to Bottas at all.


:thumbup:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:54 pm 
Online

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 941
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
ALESI wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
All this talk of if Lewis loses by three points or if Valtteri wins by three. Surely it's going to be uncomfortable if Hamilton loses by just one point or if Bottas wins by one. Or are we saying that Valtteri has to beat everyone else by at least four points to be a worthy champion this year?


I don't think so... there's seems a misconception that Hamilton 'GAVE' these points to Bottas. He was never in front on merit anyway, faster or not (since when was being faster on track more important than track position anyway?).

I will second that comment. Those points were earned by Bottas by virtue of being legitimately ahead of Lewis until until he followed Team Orders... no "gift" to Bottas at all.


:thumbup:

I also think this. While Hamilton had more pace, he didn't put it together in qualifying or his race start which is very important here. Bottas will almost certainly have done enough for 3rd without any team orders. So I don't quite understand why some people have praised Hamilton more than Bottas. For this track, considering it is hard to overtake on, I think I could say Bottas has overall had a slightly better weekend than Hamilton as he performed better where it mattered most which basically will have resulted better. At some other tracks, Bottas's lack of pace would have allowed Hamilton through quite easily if he had qualified ahead or had a much better start. So even though it is clear that it is normally the case that Hamilton is better in the race, they are much closer to each other in qualifying and Bottas could end up affecting some more of his races if it continues. But if anything, if they are battling against each other by the end of the season, that is a good thing. Bottas is very good at defending too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 5385
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
ALESI wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
All this talk of if Lewis loses by three points or if Valtteri wins by three. Surely it's going to be uncomfortable if Hamilton loses by just one point or if Bottas wins by one. Or are we saying that Valtteri has to beat everyone else by at least four points to be a worthy champion this year?


I don't think so... there's seems a misconception that Hamilton 'GAVE' these points to Bottas. He was never in front on merit anyway, faster or not (since when was being faster on track more important than track position anyway?).

I will second that comment. Those points were earned by Bottas by virtue of being legitimately ahead of Lewis until until he followed Team Orders... no "gift" to Bottas at all.


:thumbup:

I also think this. While Hamilton had more pace, he didn't put it together in qualifying or his race start which is very important here. Bottas will almost certainly have done enough for 3rd without any team orders. So I don't quite understand why some people have praised Hamilton more than Bottas. For this track, considering it is hard to overtake on, I think I could say Bottas has overall had a slightly better weekend than Hamilton as he performed better where it mattered most which basically will have resulted better. At some other tracks, Bottas's lack of pace would have allowed Hamilton through quite easily if he had qualified ahead or had a much better start. So even though it is clear that it is normally the case that Hamilton is better in the race, they are much closer to each other in qualifying and Bottas could end up affecting some more of his races if it continues. But if anything, if they are battling against each other by the end of the season, that is a good thing. Bottas is very good at defending too.

My point is that if Mercedes want a WDC this year and if there's more likelihood of it being Hamilton than Bottas, they may have shot themselves in the foot by being fair and it won't need to be a three points difference for it to be a problem. My other point is that there will still be some who think this was a gift to Bottas and he doesn't deserve the six points swing that he got from this result that could have seen Hamilton extend his lead over Bottas rather than see it shrink.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 5385
I'm also interested in the occasion when Hamilton didn't want to swap with Rosberg because "Nico could have beaten me" - I know this was not an offer to give the place back later - and the time Rosberg allowed Hamilton through in Monaco when he could have just kept Hamilton behind him for the whole race for his own ends without thinking about Mercedes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 20640
flyboy10 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
ALESI wrote:

I don't think so... there's seems a misconception that Hamilton 'GAVE' these points to Bottas. He was never in front on merit anyway, faster or not (since when was being faster on track more important than track position anyway?).

I will second that comment. Those points were earned by Bottas by virtue of being legitimately ahead of Lewis until until he followed Team Orders... no "gift" to Bottas at all.


:thumbup:

I also think this. While Hamilton had more pace, he didn't put it together in qualifying or his race start which is very important here. Bottas will almost certainly have done enough for 3rd without any team orders. So I don't quite understand why some people have praised Hamilton more than Bottas. For this track, considering it is hard to overtake on, I think I could say Bottas has overall had a slightly better weekend than Hamilton as he performed better where it mattered most which basically will have resulted better. At some other tracks, Bottas's lack of pace would have allowed Hamilton through quite easily if he had qualified ahead or had a much better start. So even though it is clear that it is normally the case that Hamilton is better in the race, they are much closer to each other in qualifying and Bottas could end up affecting some more of his races if it continues. But if anything, if they are battling against each other by the end of the season, that is a good thing. Bottas is very good at defending too.

My point is that if Mercedes want a WDC this year and if there's more likelihood of it being Hamilton than Bottas, they may have shot themselves in the foot by being fair and it won't need to be a three points difference for it to be a problem. My other point is that there will still be some who think this was a gift to Bottas and he doesn't deserve the six points swing that he got from this result that could have seen Hamilton extend his lead over Bottas rather than see it shrink.

Anybody who thinks that is just plain wrong, though. Hamilton only got where he was because Bottas waved him past. How some can then translate that as Bottas being undeserving is pretty breathtaking, really


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:15 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 5760
Location: Nebraska, USA
Zoue wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
My point is that if Mercedes want a WDC this year and if there's more likelihood of it being Hamilton than Bottas, they may have shot themselves in the foot by being fair and it won't need to be a three points difference for it to be a problem. My other point is that there will still be some who think this was a gift to Bottas and he doesn't deserve the six points swing that he got from this result that could have seen Hamilton extend his lead over Bottas rather than see it shrink.

Anybody who thinks that is just plain wrong, though. Hamilton only got where he was because Bottas waved him past. How some can then translate that as Bottas being undeserving is pretty breathtaking, really

+1
It is not a shock to see these kinds of things are still being posted, but it is a bit sad. I suspect that we have not heard the last of this kind of "reasoning".

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:54 pm
Posts: 934
Clarky wrote:
inky38 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Why the praise for Hamilton he was let through by Bottas, the only reasonable decision was to give the place back.

Not really when your 7 seconds up the road and a fast Red Bull coming.


I suspect that Hamilton was praying that Verstappen would pass Bottas.

Problem solved then

You don't remember when Merc said to Hamilton you have another 5 laps and Hamilton responded should I give the place back now only to be told negative.

Throws that out.


I think have the posts here could be thrown out.

"UGGHH TEAM ORDERS" before the final corner.
"UGHH IF THAT WAS ANOTHER DRIVER" Yeah sure because every title contender WOULD give it back. I can't see any drivers in fact I was too surprised (not completely) that Lewis gave it back.
"UUGH WHAT IF MAX"... He was ordered not to give it back.
"UGHH 5 laps 5 laps 5 laps!" The team have a lot to lose here... calm down. It's not like Bottas is catching Lewis.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:09 pm
Posts: 8522
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
ALESI wrote:
flyboy10 wrote:
All this talk of if Lewis loses by three points or if Valtteri wins by three. Surely it's going to be uncomfortable if Hamilton loses by just one point or if Bottas wins by one. Or are we saying that Valtteri has to beat everyone else by at least four points to be a worthy champion this year?


There's seems a misconception that Hamilton 'GAVE' these points to Bottas. He was never in front on merit anyway, faster or not (since when was being faster on track more important than track position anyway?).

I will second that comment


:thumbup:

I also think this.


Everybody jumping on the bandwagon that people think Hamilton gave the points to Bottas - where? I haven't seen anybody say that in here? So you are speaking against something that wasn't even mentioned...

There is no misconception of what happened, anybody that knows anything about racing knows that Bottas let Hamilton through and gifted him the opportunity to progress through the field, something he wasn't able to do, so they switched back. I haven't seen anybody interpret that any differently in here.

_________________
http://www.racefan.co.uk


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:15 pm 
Online

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 941
lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
ALESI wrote:
There's seems a misconception that Hamilton 'GAVE' these points to Bottas. He was never in front on merit anyway, faster or not (since when was being faster on track more important than track position anyway?).

I will second that comment


:thumbup:

I also think this.


Everybody jumping on the bandwagon that people think Hamilton gave the points to Bottas - where? I haven't seen anybody say that in here? So you are speaking against something that wasn't even mentioned...

There is no misconception of what happened, anybody that knows anything about racing knows that Bottas let Hamilton through and gifted him the opportunity to progress through the field, something he wasn't able to do, so they switched back. I haven't seen anybody interpret that any differently in here.


Maybe not so much on this forum but there are loads of these sorts of comments elsewhere. And many headlines on articles are something along the lines of "Hamilton gives up 3rd for Bottas" That is what I think is the point. It effectively was Bottas giving up 3rd for Hamilton to have a go. That was the first thing that happened and there don't seem to be any headlines including that Bottas was the first one to switch places. An awful lot of the praise does seem to be towards Hamilton compared to his team mate. I have seen in other places such as on the F1 fanatic live stream that there were loads of comments complaining that Hamilton had just given Bottas a load of points. That would be effectively be true if Hamilton had overtaken without team orders but then he would have no reason to swap. Maybe not on this forum but that may be what most of us were referring to. I have also read plenty of comments on Youtube and elsewhere saying this sort of thing. Those people just seem to be rather oblivious to the fact Bottas allowed Hamilton through first.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bacus, Black_Flag_11, Blake, Google Adsense [Bot], inky38, Invade, Mayhem, mds, TheGiantHogweed, VajraTLR and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group