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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:19 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Migen wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think what we saw today made it 100% clear that Bottas and Hamilton and equals and Mercedes race each race to maximise the team result.

Bottas did his usual, only good on one compound tyre. Not a single race has he been strong on both, even with his charge last race in Silverstone, his pace was actually weak when on that SS charge. If it was a track overtaking was possible on, Hamilton probably would have won or been 2nd behind Kimi today, with Bottas 4th. Bottas reminds me of Heikki, very good over 1 lap, questionable race pace. Although Bottas usually has good race pace on 1 tyre, Heikki was just plain weak in the race.

Pretty clear today, Mercedes race each race to maximise the team result regardless of drivers. Ferrari race each race to maximise Vettels results and actively slow Raikkonen down - they pitted him because he was going to over cut Vettel and take the lead today. If they were equals, Kimi would have 2 wins this year now (Monaco and Hungary) both of which they pitted him at that point so Vettel won or at least gave Vettel a chance to win (Monaco). The lap Kimi pitted today was about to be the fastest lap of the race, his in lap was 1.6 seconds quicker than Vettels.

So, what you`re basically saying is that, Ferrari should let Kimi to overcut Vettel, but they should not allow Vettel to overcut Kimi in return! :lol:
Do you realize that only if Ferrari heavily favored Kimi over Vettel, only then Kimi would have had the 2 wins that you`re implying?


No, Kimi did not need favouring in Monaco or Hungary to win. He just needed the obvious decision at the time or equal treatment. Especially today. In Monaco we saw, Ferrari will do different things to give Vettel a chance to take the lead and today we saw if Kimi is about to take the lead then the opposite will occur, things will be done to make sure he doesn't.

In Monaco he was pitted too early, he pitted to cover a car that was 6 seconds behind him. He should have been kept out to see how the others performed on new tyres. Because it was clear that old tyres were quicker even before Kimi was pitted.

In Hungary he was pitted when he was just about to set the fastest lap of the race and over cut Vettel. Again, not favouring. If Kimi pitted first he would take the lead, if he pitted 2nd he just needed 2 laps to take the lead. The only way for Vettel to maintain the lead was pit first and Kimi pit the next lap. Ferrari managed it well, but Kimi was nearly too quick for them.

That is not favouring, that is just normal strategy. But Vettel is the better prospect for the title, so its perfectly understandable. Just a shame if you are Kimi or a Kimi fan.


Sorry, but why Ferrari should have given Kimi 2 laps of overcut? How isnt that favoring whilst Monaco in your opinion is?
And by the same token, Vettel also set the faster lap of the race when he was released in Monaco, and exactly 2 lap overcut, as you`re requesting for Kimi this time around, would have been enough for Vettel too in Monaco to jump Kimi (because what Vettel gained on the 3rd lap, was actually lots on the 4th lap of the overcut in Monaco).


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Calm now, I'm not digging at Vettel I'm just sharing my opinion.

The car is surely built to suit Vettel, and rightly so since he is better. The whole team is probably built around Vettel to give him the highest chance of the WDC, still rightly so.
That said Kimi gets a lot of flak from people saying he doesn't deserve the seat. He has outqualified Vettel a few times (one of them Monaco which he should have won), also he has been quicker at a few races too.
This season they are fairly close but Kimi will never get the chance if Ferrari can give the win to Vettel. Kimi will only be allowed to win if Vettel is too far back of has a DNF. How easy is it for Kimi the perform at the top knowing that he won't be allowed to win, and knowing everything is built around the other guy.

If Kimi is so bad as (some) people say he is then Vettel isn't that great either since he should beat Kimi by a larger margin than this.

So much so for not having the said dig.
So you are saying that Ferrari gave the win to Vettel today?



Reading my post again, nope, nowhere can I see that I'm saying that they gave the win to Vettel today... Care to try reading it again?

How is that a dig to Vettel? It's a dig at Ferrari if anything, which it isn't either. Just stating how they usualy act.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:37 pm 
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Migen wrote:
lamo wrote:
Migen wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think what we saw today made it 100% clear that Bottas and Hamilton and equals and Mercedes race each race to maximise the team result.

Bottas did his usual, only good on one compound tyre. Not a single race has he been strong on both, even with his charge last race in Silverstone, his pace was actually weak when on that SS charge. If it was a track overtaking was possible on, Hamilton probably would have won or been 2nd behind Kimi today, with Bottas 4th. Bottas reminds me of Heikki, very good over 1 lap, questionable race pace. Although Bottas usually has good race pace on 1 tyre, Heikki was just plain weak in the race.

Pretty clear today, Mercedes race each race to maximise the team result regardless of drivers. Ferrari race each race to maximise Vettels results and actively slow Raikkonen down - they pitted him because he was going to over cut Vettel and take the lead today. If they were equals, Kimi would have 2 wins this year now (Monaco and Hungary) both of which they pitted him at that point so Vettel won or at least gave Vettel a chance to win (Monaco). The lap Kimi pitted today was about to be the fastest lap of the race, his in lap was 1.6 seconds quicker than Vettels.

So, what you`re basically saying is that, Ferrari should let Kimi to overcut Vettel, but they should not allow Vettel to overcut Kimi in return! :lol:
Do you realize that only if Ferrari heavily favored Kimi over Vettel, only then Kimi would have had the 2 wins that you`re implying?


No, Kimi did not need favouring in Monaco or Hungary to win. He just needed the obvious decision at the time or equal treatment. Especially today. In Monaco we saw, Ferrari will do different things to give Vettel a chance to take the lead and today we saw if Kimi is about to take the lead then the opposite will occur, things will be done to make sure he doesn't.

In Monaco he was pitted too early, he pitted to cover a car that was 6 seconds behind him. He should have been kept out to see how the others performed on new tyres. Because it was clear that old tyres were quicker even before Kimi was pitted.

In Hungary he was pitted when he was just about to set the fastest lap of the race and over cut Vettel. Again, not favouring. If Kimi pitted first he would take the lead, if he pitted 2nd he just needed 2 laps to take the lead. The only way for Vettel to maintain the lead was pit first and Kimi pit the next lap. Ferrari managed it well, but Kimi was nearly too quick for them.

That is not favouring, that is just normal strategy. But Vettel is the better prospect for the title, so its perfectly understandable. Just a shame if you are Kimi or a Kimi fan.


Sorry, but why Ferrari should have given Kimi 2 laps of overcut? How isnt that favoring whilst Monaco in your opinion is?
And by the same token, Vettel also set the faster lap of the race when he was released in Monaco, and exactly 2 lap overcut, as you`re requesting for Kimi this time around, would have been enough for Vettel too in Monaco to jump Kimi (because what Vettel gained on the 3rd lap, was actually lots on the 4th lap of the overcut in Monaco).


Where did I say Ferrari should have?

I think they are right, Vettel is number 1 and best hope for the title. So screwing over Kimi is the best thing to do.

The difference is; In Monaco, Ferrari gave the better strategy to the guy in P2. In Hungary they protected the guy in P1 by pitting the guy in P2 to stop him over taking him. I am just pointing out, the strategy is the maximise Vettel in all races and stop Kimi from finishing ahead of him if the cars are 1-2.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:53 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Migen wrote:
lamo wrote:
Migen wrote:
lamo wrote:
I think what we saw today made it 100% clear that Bottas and Hamilton and equals and Mercedes race each race to maximise the team result.

Bottas did his usual, only good on one compound tyre. Not a single race has he been strong on both, even with his charge last race in Silverstone, his pace was actually weak when on that SS charge. If it was a track overtaking was possible on, Hamilton probably would have won or been 2nd behind Kimi today, with Bottas 4th. Bottas reminds me of Heikki, very good over 1 lap, questionable race pace. Although Bottas usually has good race pace on 1 tyre, Heikki was just plain weak in the race.

Pretty clear today, Mercedes race each race to maximise the team result regardless of drivers. Ferrari race each race to maximise Vettels results and actively slow Raikkonen down - they pitted him because he was going to over cut Vettel and take the lead today. If they were equals, Kimi would have 2 wins this year now (Monaco and Hungary) both of which they pitted him at that point so Vettel won or at least gave Vettel a chance to win (Monaco). The lap Kimi pitted today was about to be the fastest lap of the race, his in lap was 1.6 seconds quicker than Vettels.

So, what you`re basically saying is that, Ferrari should let Kimi to overcut Vettel, but they should not allow Vettel to overcut Kimi in return! :lol:
Do you realize that only if Ferrari heavily favored Kimi over Vettel, only then Kimi would have had the 2 wins that you`re implying?


No, Kimi did not need favouring in Monaco or Hungary to win. He just needed the obvious decision at the time or equal treatment. Especially today. In Monaco we saw, Ferrari will do different things to give Vettel a chance to take the lead and today we saw if Kimi is about to take the lead then the opposite will occur, things will be done to make sure he doesn't.

In Monaco he was pitted too early, he pitted to cover a car that was 6 seconds behind him. He should have been kept out to see how the others performed on new tyres. Because it was clear that old tyres were quicker even before Kimi was pitted.

In Hungary he was pitted when he was just about to set the fastest lap of the race and over cut Vettel. Again, not favouring. If Kimi pitted first he would take the lead, if he pitted 2nd he just needed 2 laps to take the lead. The only way for Vettel to maintain the lead was pit first and Kimi pit the next lap. Ferrari managed it well, but Kimi was nearly too quick for them.

That is not favouring, that is just normal strategy. But Vettel is the better prospect for the title, so its perfectly understandable. Just a shame if you are Kimi or a Kimi fan.


Sorry, but why Ferrari should have given Kimi 2 laps of overcut? How isnt that favoring whilst Monaco in your opinion is?
And by the same token, Vettel also set the faster lap of the race when he was released in Monaco, and exactly 2 lap overcut, as you`re requesting for Kimi this time around, would have been enough for Vettel too in Monaco to jump Kimi (because what Vettel gained on the 3rd lap, was actually lots on the 4th lap of the overcut in Monaco).


Where did I say Ferrari should have?

I think they are right, Vettel is number 1 and best hope for the title. So screwing over Kimi is the best thing to do.

The difference is; In Monaco, Ferrari gave the better strategy to the guy in P2. In Hungary they protected the guy in P1 by pitting the guy in P2 to stop him over taking him. I am just pointing out, the strategy is the maximise Vettel in all races and stop Kimi from finishing ahead of him if the cars are 1-2.

In order to get Kimi in front today, Ferrari should have allowed Kimi a 2nd lap of overcut... thats what I was referring to.

But to clear this up once and for all, lets play out both Monaco and Hungary as if Vettel and Kimi were running for different teams, therefore no favoring of any sort:
In Monaco, overcut or undercut, Vettel still showed to have the pace to get in front of Kimi.
In Hungary, overcut or undercut, Kimi still showed to have the pace to get in front of Vettel.

So, in the best case scenario, yes, Kimi should have won only 1 of these 2 race (even that 1 win, not particularly on merit since Vettel's car had issues), but basically there`s no way you can award to Kimi both wins (not unless the team favored Kimi).


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:54 pm 
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Quark wrote:
Does it officially confirm that Bottas is officially the number 2 driver at Mercedes? Will he give up his title ambitions to win a new contract?


I'd say it confirms they are equal. Allowing the faster guy through to have a go makes sense. Switching things back when it didn't work shows fairness.
A lot more even handed than Ferrari.
Kimi was clearly faster but was not allowed to challenge.
Not as though I believe that was anything other than the right call.
Just highlighting the fact that the 2 teams operate in a completely different way.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Prema wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Calm now, I'm not digging at Vettel I'm just sharing my opinion.

The car is surely built to suit Vettel, and rightly so since he is better. The whole team is probably built around Vettel to give him the highest chance of the WDC, still rightly so.
That said Kimi gets a lot of flak from people saying he doesn't deserve the seat. He has outqualified Vettel a few times (one of them Monaco which he should have won), also he has been quicker at a few races too.
This season they are fairly close but Kimi will never get the chance if Ferrari can give the win to Vettel. Kimi will only be allowed to win if Vettel is too far back of has a DNF. How easy is it for Kimi the perform at the top knowing that he won't be allowed to win, and knowing everything is built around the other guy.

If Kimi is so bad as (some) people say he is then Vettel isn't that great either since he should beat Kimi by a larger margin than this.

So much so for not having the said dig.
So you are saying that Ferrari gave the win to Vettel today?



Reading my post again, nope, nowhere can I see that I'm saying that they gave the win to Vettel today... Care to try reading it again?

How is that a dig to Vettel? It's a dig at Ferrari if anything, which it isn't either. Just stating how they usualy act.


You have been arguing about this race in terms of Kimi being hold back by the team, and coming up with such a statement. Hence the need to clarify it, yes?
So not in this race. Any other that you might have in mind?

Otherwise, the dig would be both at Ferrari, for taking a win from Kimi and giving it to Vettel, and Vettel for not deserving a win but being given to. And even if you don't point on today's race as such, it still remains so since you presented that as if an axiom.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:06 pm 
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If they were in different teams I think Kimi still has a chance in Monaco by pitting the lap after Vettel. But I do agree, one each is more realistic. The thing with Monaco is, there was just no need to pit Kimi that early and its obvious they got him out the way to give Vettel a chance at the race win.

If you put Vettel in Kimi's place for both Monaco and Hungary scenarios - Vettel wins both races from this position because Kimi would have been pitted the lap after him in Monaco and in Hungary Vettel would have been given 2-3 laps over cut to take the lead and win.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Prema wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Calm now, I'm not digging at Vettel I'm just sharing my opinion.

The car is surely built to suit Vettel, and rightly so since he is better. The whole team is probably built around Vettel to give him the highest chance of the WDC, still rightly so.
That said Kimi gets a lot of flak from people saying he doesn't deserve the seat. He has outqualified Vettel a few times (one of them Monaco which he should have won), also he has been quicker at a few races too.
This season they are fairly close but Kimi will never get the chance if Ferrari can give the win to Vettel. Kimi will only be allowed to win if Vettel is too far back of has a DNF. How easy is it for Kimi the perform at the top knowing that he won't be allowed to win, and knowing everything is built around the other guy.

If Kimi is so bad as (some) people say he is then Vettel isn't that great either since he should beat Kimi by a larger margin than this.

So much so for not having the said dig.
So you are saying that Ferrari gave the win to Vettel today?



Reading my post again, nope, nowhere can I see that I'm saying that they gave the win to Vettel today... Care to try reading it again?

How is that a dig to Vettel? It's a dig at Ferrari if anything, which it isn't either. Just stating how they usualy act.


You have been arguing about this race in terms of Kimi being hold back by the team, and coming up with such a statement. Hence the need to clarify it, yes?
So not in this race. Any other that you might have in mind?

Otherwise, the dig would be both at Ferrari, for taking a win from Kimi and giving it to Vettel, and Vettel for not deserving a win but being given to. And even if you don't point on today's race as such, it still remains so since you presented that as if an axiom.



My mistake if so, I was generally speaking about how it use to be. But Monaco springs to mind, even though that one is a bit grey but surely Ferrari could have found a better time to pit Kimi?
Many on here think as soon as I mention Vettel it's a dig. Often it is, but this time it really isn't. One must be able to give criticism towards a team and/or driver without it having to be a dig?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:43 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Prema wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Prema wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Calm now, I'm not digging at Vettel I'm just sharing my opinion.

The car is surely built to suit Vettel, and rightly so since he is better. The whole team is probably built around Vettel to give him the highest chance of the WDC, still rightly so.
That said Kimi gets a lot of flak from people saying he doesn't deserve the seat. He has outqualified Vettel a few times (one of them Monaco which he should have won), also he has been quicker at a few races too.
This season they are fairly close but Kimi will never get the chance if Ferrari can give the win to Vettel. Kimi will only be allowed to win if Vettel is too far back of has a DNF. How easy is it for Kimi the perform at the top knowing that he won't be allowed to win, and knowing everything is built around the other guy.

If Kimi is so bad as (some) people say he is then Vettel isn't that great either since he should beat Kimi by a larger margin than this.

So much so for not having the said dig.
So you are saying that Ferrari gave the win to Vettel today?



Reading my post again, nope, nowhere can I see that I'm saying that they gave the win to Vettel today... Care to try reading it again?

How is that a dig to Vettel? It's a dig at Ferrari if anything, which it isn't either. Just stating how they usualy act.


You have been arguing about this race in terms of Kimi being hold back by the team, and coming up with such a statement. Hence the need to clarify it, yes?
So not in this race. Any other that you might have in mind?

Otherwise, the dig would be both at Ferrari, for taking a win from Kimi and giving it to Vettel, and Vettel for not deserving a win but being given to. And even if you don't point on today's race as such, it still remains so since you presented that as if an axiom.



My mistake if so, I was generally speaking about how it use to be. But Monaco springs to mind, even though that one is a bit grey but surely Ferrari could have found a better time to pit Kimi?
Many on here think as soon as I mention Vettel it's a dig. Often it is, but this time it really isn't. One must be able to give criticism towards a team and/or driver without it having to be a dig?

I think it is rather the choice of wording that "rings the bell". I do think that Ferrari is naturally biased towards Vettel and would favor him over Kimi. Like both in Bahrain and (somewhat) today. But giving a win away... Yes, I saw Barrichello slow down before the finish line to let Schumacher claim it, even if not so badly needed for WDC. We are not there, aren't we?

But Kimi could have won today. All he needed was to have the pole position. Or to jump Vettel in the first lap and pull away. And then we would be in the situation to see if the win would be given away to Vettel or not.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:51 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Yeah hats off to Mercedes, didn't expect them to give the place back.


This has more to do with Hamilton than Mercedes.
Alonso, Vettel would not have done what Hamilton did today.

Lewis is actually one of the most fairer drivers on the grid and I support him because I believe in honor and integrity, and he has plenty of it(Not that the 2 other multiple WDCs have none of it, but not enough for me to fully support and respect them).
There are things more important than WDC points.


Jep, Hamilton is the most humble of the top drivers. :thumbup:

Don't expect the Hamilton-haters to give credit where credit is due though. Haters gonna hate, better ignore it.


Have you not read the race thread? MANY drivers gave Hamilton credit, even several whom you would likely call a "hamilton-hater". Perhaps you should go read it, then come back and give credit were credit is due in that situation. BTW, most of those critical of Hamilton giving back that position were NOT Hamilton critics, instead more of the fan variety upset that he gave back 3 points.


Don't bother with their kind Blake, they are incredibly biased and need someone to fuel their hate. It's sort of ironic that these people with spite and anger in their system call some critics of Hamilton haters. They are doomed to a life of prejudice and bias, and unfortunately the bile in their system will most likely shorten their lives.I feel sorry for them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Hamilton not shy from taking the credits for giving Bottas the place back:
"Hopefully that shows that I'm a team player".
But then immediately getting a second thought, hoping that the display of sportsmanship won't actually come to byte him. :uhoh:
"I hope we don't lose the championship for anything... less... or... more than 3 points."


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:12 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Hamilton not shy from taking the credits for giving Bottas the place back:
"Hopefully that shows that I'm a team player".
But then immediately getting a second thought, hoping that the display of sportsmanship won't actually come to byte him. :uhoh:
"I hope we don't lose the championship for anything... less... or... more than 3 points."



I know that was exactly the words spoken in the interview, but reading it, and watching it being said give different impressions of the intention of the driver.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Yeah hats off to Mercedes, didn't expect them to give the place back.


This has more to do with Hamilton than Mercedes.
Alonso, Vettel would not have done what Hamilton did today.

Lewis is actually one of the most fairer drivers on the grid and I support him because I believe in honor and integrity, and he has plenty of it(Not that the 2 other multiple WDCs have none of it, but not enough for me to fully support and respect them).
There are things more important than WDC points.


Jep, Hamilton is the most humble of the top drivers. :thumbup:

Don't expect the Hamilton-haters to give credit where credit is due though. Haters gonna hate, better ignore it.


Have you not read the race thread? MANY drivers gave Hamilton credit, even several whom you would likely call a "hamilton-hater". Perhaps you should go read it, then come back and give credit were credit is due in that situation. BTW, most of those critical of Hamilton giving back that position were NOT Hamilton critics, instead more of the fan variety upset that he gave back 3 points.


Don't bother with their kind Blake, they are incredibly biased and need someone to fuel their hate. It's sort of ironic that these people with spite and anger in their system call some critics of Hamilton haters. They are doomed to a life of prejudice and bias, and unfortunately the bile in their system will most likely shorten their lives.I feel sorry for them.


Coming from the person who puts Hamilton down at every opportunity :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Quark wrote:
Does it officially confirm that Bottas is officially the number 2 driver at Mercedes? Will he give up his title ambitions to win a new contract?


Errrmmmm wrong post? should delete it? made before the final corner?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:22 pm 
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optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.


Lewis was beating Bottas in Bahrain whatever, Bottas pace was so slow he was giving the team no chance of win which when Hamilton got ahead at least improved the chances and being 14 seconds clear of his teammate with a 5 second penalty. . People need to look at that race with abit of common sense and not just the team order.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:28 pm 
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As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:32 pm 
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optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.

You have to look at what happened in the races. In Baku, for example, the headrest thing prevented Lewis from winning easily. Other than Russia, Valteri has been the slower driver in each race.

The more important point is that, unlike Ferrari, Mercedes' drivers are taking a lot of points from each other and it could easily cost them the championship.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:27 pm 
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Why the praise for Hamilton he was let through by Bottas, the only reasonable decision was to give the place back.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:45 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Why the praise for Hamilton he was let through by Bottas, the only reasonable decision was to give the place back.

Yeah, but not everybody would have done it.

*cough* Max *cough*.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:29 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.

You have to look at what happened in the races. In Baku, for example, the headrest thing prevented Lewis from winning easily. Other than Russia, Valteri has been the slower driver in each race.

The more important point is that, unlike Ferrari, Mercedes' drivers are taking a lot of points from each other and it could easily cost them the championship.


But it is at the same time what is giving them the championship... that other one.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:30 am 
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It is fair to praise Hamilton today for acting honourably with his team mate as it was plain and fair to see that it was his failure to honour a team agreement 10 years ago on the same venue that kicked it all off with Alonso (although Alonso's instant retaliation was not necessarily the wisest).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:38 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Why the praise for Hamilton he was let through by Bottas, the only reasonable decision was to give the place back.

Not really when your 7 seconds up the road and a fast Red Bull coming.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:00 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Why the praise for Hamilton he was let through by Bottas, the only reasonable decision was to give the place back.


Why does he deserve the praise? Not every driver would have done that. So many fans were screaming about him taking more than "5 laps". If people want to throw hate at him by all means but he deserves praise on this one because so many didn't see it coming.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:05 am 
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Prema wrote:
I think it is rather the choice of wording that "rings the bell". I do think that Ferrari is naturally biased towards Vettel and would favor him over Kimi. Like both in Bahrain and (somewhat) today. But giving a win away... Yes, I saw Barrichello slow down before the finish line to let Schumacher claim it, even if not so badly needed for WDC. We are not there, aren't we?

But Kimi could have won today. All he needed was to have the pole position. Or to jump Vettel in the first lap and pull away. And then we would be in the situation to see if the win would be given away to Vettel or not.


I didn't think Vettel should slow down for Kimi because he was faster, what I'm saying is we would probably not see Vettel give the position back if the roles were reversed between Mercedes and Ferrari. I'm looking at the bigger picture of how Ferrari usually operates.

Speculating in that if Kimi would have had the pole and lead, would he be able to keep it or would Ferrari find a way to swap them? Just look at Monaco.
Vettel was faster in the race at Monaco, Ferrari found a way to get him passed Kimi. Just because Kimi has outqualified Vettel and is ahead it's no guarantee for the win.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:06 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Yeah hats off to Mercedes, didn't expect them to give the place back.


This has more to do with Hamilton than Mercedes.
Alonso, Vettel would not have done what Hamilton did today.

Lewis is actually one of the most fairer drivers on the grid and I support him because I believe in honor and integrity, and he has plenty of it(Not that the 2 other multiple WDCs have none of it, but not enough for me to fully support and respect them).
There are things more important than WDC points.


Jep, Hamilton is the most humble of the top drivers. :thumbup:

Don't expect the Hamilton-haters to give credit where credit is due though. Haters gonna hate, better ignore it.


Have you not read the race thread? MANY drivers gave Hamilton credit, even several whom you would likely call a "hamilton-hater". Perhaps you should go read it, then come back and give credit were credit is due in that situation. BTW, most of those critical of Hamilton giving back that position were NOT Hamilton critics, instead more of the fan variety upset that he gave back 3 points.


Don't bother with their kind Blake, they are incredibly biased and need someone to fuel their hate. It's sort of ironic that these people with spite and anger in their system call some critics of Hamilton haters. They are doomed to a life of prejudice and bias, and unfortunately the bile in their system will most likely shorten their lives.I feel sorry for them.


That's a bit of a stretch mate. It's not like you're unbiased on this forum...
Also the fact you need to point out how other people are bittre etc just shows you are bitter yourself.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:21 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Blake wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Yeah hats off to Mercedes, didn't expect them to give the place back.


This has more to do with Hamilton than Mercedes.
Alonso, Vettel would not have done what Hamilton did today.

Lewis is actually one of the most fairer drivers on the grid and I support him because I believe in honor and integrity, and he has plenty of it(Not that the 2 other multiple WDCs have none of it, but not enough for me to fully support and respect them).
There are things more important than WDC points.


Jep, Hamilton is the most humble of the top drivers. :thumbup:

Don't expect the Hamilton-haters to give credit where credit is due though. Haters gonna hate, better ignore it.


Have you not read the race thread? MANY drivers gave Hamilton credit, even several whom you would likely call a "hamilton-hater". Perhaps you should go read it, then come back and give credit were credit is due in that situation. BTW, most of those critical of Hamilton giving back that position were NOT Hamilton critics, instead more of the fan variety upset that he gave back 3 points.


Don't bother with their kind Blake, they are incredibly biased and need someone to fuel their hate. It's sort of ironic that these people with spite and anger in their system call some critics of Hamilton haters. They are doomed to a life of prejudice and bias, and unfortunately the bile in their system will most likely shorten their lives.I feel sorry for them.


Where as what you've said there isn't in the least be spiteful. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:35 am 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Prema wrote:
I think it is rather the choice of wording that "rings the bell". I do think that Ferrari is naturally biased towards Vettel and would favor him over Kimi. Like both in Bahrain and (somewhat) today. But giving a win away... Yes, I saw Barrichello slow down before the finish line to let Schumacher claim it, even if not so badly needed for WDC. We are not there, aren't we?

But Kimi could have won today. All he needed was to have the pole position. Or to jump Vettel in the first lap and pull away. And then we would be in the situation to see if the win would be given away to Vettel or not.


I didn't think Vettel should slow down for Kimi because he was faster, what I'm saying is we would probably not see Vettel give the position back if the roles were reversed between Mercedes and Ferrari. I'm looking at the bigger picture of how Ferrari usually operates.

Speculating in that if Kimi would have had the pole and lead, would he be able to keep it or would Ferrari find a way to swap them? Just look at Monaco.
Vettel was faster in the race at Monaco, Ferrari found a way to get him passed Kimi. Just because Kimi has outqualified Vettel and is ahead it's no guarantee for the win.


But that is the point, that Vettel was faster in Monaco. So it was not exactly the case of the team finding the way to "swap" them or to "get him passed Kimi". But simply providing the faster driver with the opportunity to perform overcut and earn himself the win. That itself is still racing, not taking the win from one and granting it to another.
Here, Kimi was faster than Vettel (due to the issues with steering) and the team did not provide the faster driver with that same opportunity. Hence the obvious bias towards Vettel. But was Kimi ahead of Vettel from the lap 1 in this race, then Kimi could have won since Vettel himself would not be the factor anymore. I am not even speculating if he would win on the end, but rather saying that only then we would be in the situation to see if Ferrari would actually take the win from Kimi and give it to Vettel by some mean of a TO or staging a botched pit stop for Kimi.

As far as how Ferrari operates, I have no doubt that it is not any different than how Mercedes operates. They too have Hamilton as their prime driver and are focused at him, Bottas is as a supportive driver as Kimi is. And whether Vettel would not had given the position back as Hamilton did, well, that is indeed what we can speculate about. And just see, this "give back" pulled by Hamilton in the end, is certainly already a good PR for Hamilton... and apparently also a bad PR for his rival, without him having even done anything (I know you don't mean a dig at him).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:11 am 
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This has been a brilliantly played piece of PR for Hamilton. Rather than the headlines being that Bottas has beaten Hamilton again, for the 5th time in the last 7 races both have finished, the race result headlines on BBC news were that Hamilton "gave" Bottas third, when the reality was that Bottas out qualified and outperformed Hamilton and in the absence of team orders Lewis would never have been in with a shout of third anyway.

Additionally, Mercedes have now ordered Bottas to hand over his position to Hamilton three times this year, while Ferrari haven't issued a single order. But now that one of the positions they took from Bottas has been given back, the myth the British media has been peddling that Mercedes treat their drivers equally and that Ferrari use team orders has been given some weight.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:42 am 
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optimisteprime wrote:
This has been a brilliantly played piece of PR for Hamilton. Rather than the headlines being that Bottas has beaten Hamilton again, for the 5th time in the last 7 races both have finished, the race result headlines on BBC news were that Hamilton "gave" Bottas third, when the reality was that Bottas out qualified and outperformed Hamilton and in the absence of team orders Lewis would never have been in with a shout of third anyway.

Additionally, Mercedes have now ordered Bottas to hand over his position to Hamilton three times this year, while Ferrari haven't issued a single order. But now that one of the positions they took from Bottas has been given back, the myth the British media has been peddling that Mercedes treat their drivers equally and that Ferrari use team orders has been given some weight.

You really believe that's it's about PR???

:lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:43 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:52 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Prema wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Yeah hats off to Mercedes, didn't expect them to give the place back.

I didn't expect either. And it looks to me Bottas did not either.
Though, I would put this solely on Lewis alone, being hit by the lightening of sportsmanship. He had good reason not to do it. After Bottas let him pass, he apparently gave up and fell behind with Max closing on him. I doubt that he was ever really threatened by Max, though.


This was only possible at Mercedes because of Bottas. This would've been impossible last year.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I seem to recall Rosberg letting Hamilton past last year at Monaco.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:53 am 
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optimisteprime wrote:
This has been a brilliantly played piece of PR for Hamilton. Rather than the headlines being that Bottas has beaten Hamilton again, for the 5th time in the last 7 races both have finished, the race result headlines on BBC news were that Hamilton "gave" Bottas third, when the reality was that Bottas out qualified and outperformed Hamilton and in the absence of team orders Lewis would never have been in with a shout of third anyway.

Additionally, Mercedes have now ordered Bottas to hand over his position to Hamilton three times this year, while Ferrari haven't issued a single order. But now that one of the positions they took from Bottas has been given back, the myth the British media has been peddling that Mercedes treat their drivers equally and that Ferrari use team orders has been given some weight.


Yes, I've looked at a BBC article and it does seem a little bias towards Hamilton but that isn't unusual. It was the right thing for Mercedes to give Hamilton the chance. He was given more of a chance than the team intended. He tried as hard as he could until right on the last lap. On the last few laps, Verstappen had lost a bit of pace and was out of DRS range and Hamilton may have seen this on the split times. So he risked it. If he had seen that verstappen was just too close before the finish line, he could have changed his mind and still got 3rd. It was certainly worth the risk since on the end lap, Verstappen was about 1.5 seconds behind Bottas and overtaking is incredibly hard here. I appreciate what Hamilton did. But we can't deny that it is very unlikely that Hamilton will have managed 3rd if it wasn't for Bottas moving over. Hamilton didn't perform well where it is really impotent at this track. It does seem that 2 of Hamilton's weaker qualifying sessions are at the hardest tracks to overtake on.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:57 am 
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ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:09 am 
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ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.
As I recall, he had to overtake one of the Ferraris ahead. Just pulling away doesn't make sense, as the fact that he was faster at that point than Bottas, would result in pulling away anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:19 am 
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Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.

1) It turned out to be a big gap to drop back
2) The Verstappen risk

Many a driver would have said "forget it, I can't drop back to that"

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:34 am 
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Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.


I'm sure you would understand if it was Vettel and Kimi :lol:

Hamilton was faster than Bottas, it's better to have a slim chance of getting another position than no chance. Thats why the team kept telling Hamilton to push, if he slowed down for Bottas the Ferrari's would go of into the distance taking it easy at least if Hamilton is pushing behind there is a slight chance or a mistake from the leading 2.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:51 am 
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What's the point of qualifying in front of your teammate if the team then says your teammate is faster let him through? Bottas deserved third, he won it on Saturday. It's not his fault the track is rubbish and you can't overtake. Presumably everyone prioritised a set up to give them one quick lap rather than long distance pace.
Hungary was always useless until a few years ago and now it's rubbish again. Yes, that shows it's the cars not the track - but these are the cars we have now, so the track is not fit to hold a GP.
But on the other hand Vettel has the luxury of a bitch for a team mate. Really when is Kimi going to grow a pair. He's not some kid trying to impress a team he's a former WDC. Does he really need another year playing support that badly?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:59 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.

You have to look at what happened in the races. In Baku, for example, the headrest thing prevented Lewis from winning easily. Other than Russia, Valteri has been the slower driver in each race.

The more important point is that, unlike Ferrari, Mercedes' drivers are taking a lot of points from each other and it could easily cost them the championship.


Bottas is also taking points off vettel and not just Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:31 am 
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Can you imagine the commentators if Lewis had won that race with a bent steering, in exactly the fashion Vettel did. The BS would be flowing like a river.

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