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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
McLaren neither had knowledge of Ferrari's full design layouts, nor did they have current blueprints.

The only case where that happened was the Arrows-Shadow espionage scandal - back in 1978.


Are you attempting to rewrite history??? That has been tried before, many times... didn't work then either. The information reportedly included CURRENT data on the cars, current info on Ferrari personnel such as engineers, test results as well as on-going data and race strategies and more.


I explained it in a longer post further up in this thread. Please read that before you accuse me of anything.

And, yes, no current full design layouts or blueprints. But indeed sms-information about set ups and race strategies - as I wrote above.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't know whether McLaren were benefiting from Spygate, but my feeling is they weren't. I also doubt the FIA were keen to keep a McLaren from winning the drivers' title. [/color]

Mclaren definitely benefited from spygate hence where the Alonso I brought 6/10ths to the car quote comes from, the car was crap until they used the dossier from Ferrari to sort it out
Oh dear, oh dear oh dear...

Right, which parts on the 2008 McLaren were copied from the 2007 Ferrari? The flexible Ferrari floor of early 2007 perhaps?
And why would Schumacher's manager be allowed to claim he brought 0.5s to a team for half the price of what technical development would cost, but Alonso not being allowed to make a silly claim of himself?


How did Mclaren know Ferrari had a flexi floor in Australia?

I guess it's hard to comprehend things but let me explain there was no rule change between '07 and '08 so if you had full knowledge of the design layout of the '07 Ferrari you don't unlearn what you know.

It's like having the blueprint of the Mercedes engine and Honda become competitive this season and then you ask how much of that knowledge is transferred to next years engine.

Also MSC actually did that with his team as they all moved together and they won.
Oh dear oh dear...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:11 am 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
F1 has gotten to your head. If you want to win you have to take it to the limit. And as a result sometimes over. He could of just stayed behind Ricciardo ofcourse. So we'd have another boring lame race... If your not making mistakes, your not giving 110%.
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


I just think it's a bit much to heap praise on someone for not wiping his car out when it was his fault in the first place. Everyone knows you don't touch the white lines in the rain, and I still don't buy that every other driver would have hit the wall. The guy is going to be a WDC sooner or later, can we not deify him just yet. At least the stupid comments about him beating Schumi's records have stopped...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:42 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I can't help but feel when trying to pass Verstappen then you have to be ready for the contact, I read some people saying that when Hamilton was behind Verstappen it was almost like he was scared to attempt any kind of pass on him.

From the man himself, after backing out of a possible overtake.

"That kid is dangerous, so wasn't worth the risk"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoJIz5ISlx4


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:27 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I can't help but feel when trying to pass Verstappen then you have to be ready for the contact, I read some people saying that when Hamilton was behind Verstappen it was almost like he was scared to attempt any kind of pass on him.

From the man himself, after backing out of a possible overtake.

"That kid is dangerous, so wasn't worth the risk"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoJIz5ISlx4

I see the sharp turn to the left by Hamilton to avoid the contact with Verstappen, like I say it's difficult to pass him without avoiding the contact.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:42 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I can't help but feel when trying to pass Verstappen then you have to be ready for the contact, I read some people saying that when Hamilton was behind Verstappen it was almost like he was scared to attempt any kind of pass on him.

From the man himself, after backing out of a possible overtake.

"That kid is dangerous, so wasn't worth the risk"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoJIz5ISlx4

I see the sharp turn to the left by Hamilton to avoid the contact with Verstappen, like I say it's difficult to pass him without avoiding the contact.
Going on previous explanations by Hamilton, he wasn't "ahead" and on the outside, so according to himself, Verstappen had the right to run all the way to the outside of the track... That would also mean that him saying Verstappen is dangerous is rather hypocritical. (Edit: this is my interpretation of Hamilton's views, not my own!)

I'm glad I saw the Magnussen clip, I didn't realise just how silly Hulkenberg was acting there. Perhaps even dangerous.

It can't be easy having to decide which cases are simply racing incidents, and which drivers need a penalty in order for them to realise they need to clean up their racing. Far more than the 4826th interview with Hamilton or Vettel, I would like to see an in-depth interview with people like Derek Warwick and Derek Daly. (Just two names I can actually remember as having served as driver-stewards... :blush: )

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:39 pm 
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F1 is as safe as it can be. Yet still the primadonna's cry. Every overtaking action has to be in DRS, because heck it might be dangerous or cost someone money!
Racing means taking risks and driving on the limit. Looking at top 4 is just about as exciting as sitting in my own VW on the highway. So yes, I applaude someone defending like there's no tomorrow, or trying an overtake somewhere where other may not dare. It keeps me from not watching F1 anymore. Stewards should take into account when penalizing a driver. No fans no sport.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
F1 is as safe as it can be. Yet still the primadonna's cry. Every overtaking action has to be in DRS, because heck it might be dangerous or cost someone money!
Racing means taking risks and driving on the limit. Looking at top 4 is just about as exciting as sitting in my own VW on the highway. So yes, I applaude someone defending like there's no tomorrow, or trying an overtake somewhere where other may not dare. It keeps me from not watching F1 anymore. Stewards should take into account when penalizing a driver. No fans no sport.


If you have a driver who is constantly on the edge of causing accidents then he's bound to be treated harshly when the opportunity arises, versus a driver who keeps his nose clean. It's common sense... as Romain Grosjean will no doubt agree.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:09 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I can't help but feel when trying to pass Verstappen then you have to be ready for the contact, I read some people saying that when Hamilton was behind Verstappen it was almost like he was scared to attempt any kind of pass on him.

From the man himself, after backing out of a possible overtake.

"That kid is dangerous, so wasn't worth the risk"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoJIz5ISlx4

I see the sharp turn to the left by Hamilton to avoid the contact with Verstappen, like I say it's difficult to pass him without avoiding the contact.
Going on previous explanations by Hamilton, he wasn't "ahead" and on the outside, so according to himself, Verstappen had the right to run all the way to the outside of the track... That would also mean that him saying Verstappen is dangerous is rather hypocritical. (Edit: this is my interpretation of Hamilton's views, not my own!)

I'm glad I saw the Magnussen clip, I didn't realise just how silly Hulkenberg was acting there. Perhaps even dangerous.

It can't be easy having to decide which cases are simply racing incidents, and which drivers need a penalty in order for them to realise they need to clean up their racing. Far more than the 4826th interview with Hamilton or Vettel, I would like to see an in-depth interview with people like Derek Warwick and Derek Daly. (Just two names I can actually remember as having served as driver-stewards... :blush: )

This wasn't a case of being run off the track but of another car dive bombing on the inside and the car on the outside having to take avoiding action, in this case I would call it normal racing but still it's Verstappen's normal way of risking contact when defending his position.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:11 pm 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
F1 is as safe as it can be. Yet still the primadonna's cry. Every overtaking action has to be in DRS, because heck it might be dangerous or cost someone money!
Racing means taking risks and driving on the limit. Looking at top 4 is just about as exciting as sitting in my own VW on the highway. So yes, I applaude someone defending like there's no tomorrow, or trying an overtake somewhere where other may not dare. It keeps me from not watching F1 anymore. Stewards should take into account when penalizing a driver. No fans no sport.

You are defending Verstappen yet he is the first to cry, as you put it, when anyone does something untoward against him.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:05 pm 
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That's the current state F1 is in. Drivers know they have to cry, it's like playing the ref.
I'm not protecting Verstappen (well maybe a little cause no one else seems to); i'm just pointing out that wheel-to-wheel action is what makes F1 exciting. Watching someone overtake in DRS just because his car is faster, is boring as hell imho... It takes no skill at all.
And so is penalizing every move that isn't neatly executed. I thougt the stewards were backing down, but that only seems to apply for top 4.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I can't help but feel when trying to pass Verstappen then you have to be ready for the contact, I read some people saying that when Hamilton was behind Verstappen it was almost like he was scared to attempt any kind of pass on him.

From the man himself, after backing out of a possible overtake.

"That kid is dangerous, so wasn't worth the risk"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoJIz5ISlx4

I see the sharp turn to the left by Hamilton to avoid the contact with Verstappen, like I say it's difficult to pass him without avoiding the contact.
Going on previous explanations by Hamilton, he wasn't "ahead" and on the outside, so according to himself, Verstappen had the right to run all the way to the outside of the track... That would also mean that him saying Verstappen is dangerous is rather hypocritical. (Edit: this is my interpretation of Hamilton's views, not my own!)

I'm glad I saw the Magnussen clip, I didn't realise just how silly Hulkenberg was acting there. Perhaps even dangerous.

It can't be easy having to decide which cases are simply racing incidents, and which drivers need a penalty in order for them to realise they need to clean up their racing. Far more than the 4826th interview with Hamilton or Vettel, I would like to see an in-depth interview with people like Derek Warwick and Derek Daly. (Just two names I can actually remember as having served as driver-stewards... :blush: )

This wasn't a case of being run off the track but of another car dive bombing on the inside and the car on the outside having to take avoiding action, in this case I would call it normal racing but still it's Verstappen's normal way of risking contact when defending his position.
No, Pokerman, you're wrong. I just watched the overtake attempt by Hamilton again and it was he who tried to overtake Verstappen, who defended the inside. The attempt came at the restart after a SC period, with Hamilton behind.
No dive bombing, just a failed attempt to overtake around the outside. Which means that the risk he was talking about refers to the difference between attacking a team-mate and a competitor from another team. Or in other words, knowing there is very little to keep a competitor from running you off the track, the way they saw you do to your ex-team-mate...

So you see, Knuppel, I can defend Max when there are grounds for doing so, just as I did when Schumacher kept it sporting once in a while. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:52 am 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
That's the current state F1 is in. Drivers know they have to cry, it's like playing the ref.
I'm not protecting Verstappen (well maybe a little cause no one else seems to); i'm just pointing out that wheel-to-wheel action is what makes F1 exciting. Watching someone overtake in DRS just because his car is faster, is boring as hell imho... It takes no skill at all.
And so is penalizing every move that isn't neatly executed. I thougt the stewards were backing down, but that only seems to apply for top 4.

Actually seeing an overtake is exciting, seeing cars crash into one another is less so unless you like that sort of thing.

You don't like to see easy DRS passes but like to see drivers defend in such a way to make overtaking neigh on impossible like we see with Verstappen, a driver like Verstappen doesn't actually encourage wheel to wheel racing without contact.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:56 am 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
From the man himself, after backing out of a possible overtake.

"That kid is dangerous, so wasn't worth the risk"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoJIz5ISlx4

I see the sharp turn to the left by Hamilton to avoid the contact with Verstappen, like I say it's difficult to pass him without avoiding the contact.
Going on previous explanations by Hamilton, he wasn't "ahead" and on the outside, so according to himself, Verstappen had the right to run all the way to the outside of the track... That would also mean that him saying Verstappen is dangerous is rather hypocritical. (Edit: this is my interpretation of Hamilton's views, not my own!)

I'm glad I saw the Magnussen clip, I didn't realise just how silly Hulkenberg was acting there. Perhaps even dangerous.

It can't be easy having to decide which cases are simply racing incidents, and which drivers need a penalty in order for them to realise they need to clean up their racing. Far more than the 4826th interview with Hamilton or Vettel, I would like to see an in-depth interview with people like Derek Warwick and Derek Daly. (Just two names I can actually remember as having served as driver-stewards... :blush: )

This wasn't a case of being run off the track but of another car dive bombing on the inside and the car on the outside having to take avoiding action, in this case I would call it normal racing but still it's Verstappen's normal way of risking contact when defending his position.
No, Pokerman, you're wrong. I just watched the overtake attempt by Hamilton again and it was he who tried to overtake Verstappen, who defended the inside. The attempt came at the restart after a SC period, with Hamilton behind.
No dive bombing, just a failed attempt to overtake around the outside. Which means that the risk he was talking about refers to the difference between attacking a team-mate and a competitor from another team. Or in other words, knowing there is very little to keep a competitor from running you off the track, the way they saw you do to your ex-team-mate...

So you see, Knuppel, I can defend Max when there are grounds for doing so, just as I did when Schumacher kept it sporting once in a while. :D

I said that Verstappen was defending his position so how I was wrong, the point I was making with Verstappen is that if you put your car in danger around him don't be surprised if it gets hit.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:30 pm 
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[quote="pokerman"

No different to any other driver currently. If you put your car on the outside unless you can get half a cars length ahead you will just get run off the road.

We saw in the last race Bottas did it to Verstappen, Sainz did it to Alonso and Magnussen did it to Hulkenberg.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:

I see the sharp turn to the left by Hamilton to avoid the contact with Verstappen, like I say it's difficult to pass him without avoiding the contact.
Going on previous explanations by Hamilton, he wasn't "ahead" and on the outside, so according to himself, Verstappen had the right to run all the way to the outside of the track... That would also mean that him saying Verstappen is dangerous is rather hypocritical. (Edit: this is my interpretation of Hamilton's views, not my own!)

I'm glad I saw the Magnussen clip, I didn't realise just how silly Hulkenberg was acting there. Perhaps even dangerous.

It can't be easy having to decide which cases are simply racing incidents, and which drivers need a penalty in order for them to realise they need to clean up their racing. Far more than the 4826th interview with Hamilton or Vettel, I would like to see an in-depth interview with people like Derek Warwick and Derek Daly. (Just two names I can actually remember as having served as driver-stewards... :blush: )

This wasn't a case of being run off the track but of another car dive bombing on the inside and the car on the outside having to take avoiding action, in this case I would call it normal racing but still it's Verstappen's normal way of risking contact when defending his position.
No, Pokerman, you're wrong. I just watched the overtake attempt by Hamilton again and it was he who tried to overtake Verstappen, who defended the inside. The attempt came at the restart after a SC period, with Hamilton behind.
No dive bombing, just a failed attempt to overtake around the outside. Which means that the risk he was talking about refers to the difference between attacking a team-mate and a competitor from another team. Or in other words, knowing there is very little to keep a competitor from running you off the track, the way they saw you do to your ex-team-mate...

So you see, Knuppel, I can defend Max when there are grounds for doing so, just as I did when Schumacher kept it sporting once in a while. :D

I said that Verstappen was defending his position so how I was wrong, the point I was making with Verstappen is that if you put your car in danger around him don't be surprised if it gets hit.
You said he was dive bombing. He didn't. Hamilton couldn't make his overtake attempt stick, because it was too optimistic without DRS. Rather than risk being run off the track, he thought better of it. Why Hamilton made that radio call is a bit puzzling, except if you see it as an attempt to discredit a perfectly fine defence.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:30 am 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:50 am 
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Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.
There's a little contradiction in what you said. If everybody drove like him, nobody would dare to? :? If everybody drove like that, I think teams would have to field more than two cars, to try to get one to the finish...

And despite my aversion to the way Senna and Schumacher went racing, more people like that, than racing respectfully. And for the driver, it pays, as these two showed.

Which brings us back to the question of double standards.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:03 am 
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Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.


This was why when he took his team mate out, It was something.

You don't race like that it's dangerous and it kills overtaking.


Last edited by Rockie on Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:13 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.
There's a little contradiction in what you said. If everybody drove like him, nobody would dare to? :? If everybody drove like that, I think teams would have to field more than two cars, to try to get one to the finish...

And despite my aversion to the way Senna and Schumacher went racing, more people like that, than racing respectfully. And for the driver, it pays, as these two showed.

Which brings us back to the question of double standards.


Is it double standards or is it simply inconsistency as a result of constantly changing personnel doing the stewarding? The FIA have said they cant afford one person to cover the season to mitigate this.

You do wonder though whether the stewarding decisions have to be taken at the circuit though, couldn't the info be available remotely to the same panel for a season for decisions? Or is this impractical and naive on my part?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.
There's a little contradiction in what you said. If everybody drove like him, nobody would dare to? :? If everybody drove like that, I think teams would have to field more than two cars, to try to get one to the finish...

And despite my aversion to the way Senna and Schumacher went racing, more people like that, than racing respectfully. And for the driver, it pays, as these two showed.

Which brings us back to the question of double standards.


Is it double standards or is it simply inconsistency as a result of constantly changing personnel doing the stewarding? The FIA have said they cant afford one person to cover the season to mitigate this.

You do wonder though whether the stewarding decisions have to be taken at the circuit though, couldn't the info be available remotely to the same panel for a season for decisions? Or is this impractical and naive on my part?
I've been wondering about it myself, since Knuppel started the thread, and writing that reply to Sharknose's post.

I think part of the reason why we believe to see double standards is that we don't get a debriefing by the stewards about how they reached the decisions they arrived at. I don't read all their reports every race, but I do try to understand them when there has been a "controversial" incident.

And while causing an avoidable accident is always wrong, I think deciding which of "racing incident" and "primarily responsible for the accident" can be extremely difficult. During or after the race.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:57 am 
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I've never liked the 'forcing another driver off the track' part of F1. I don't think it should be acceptable. They are supposed to race on the track - that's what it is there for.

They could automate things to some extent. The outer edge of the white line could be the visual indicator of the outer limit of the track, but they could have a buried cable which was detected by a sensor (and a backup in case it failed) in the centre of each car.
The sensor would need to be capable of sensing the distance to the cable accurately from up to two car's widths. It needs to be a system that allows the stewards to decide very quickly if a punishment needs to be applied.

They can work out a punishment system based on staying within the track limits when driving, and rules for leaving a car's width when a car is overlapping you.

They would also have to have to have realistic rules regarding what is considered an overlap - ie. if the driver in front has no way of telling there is an overlap, or the overlap has occurred so suddenly that he has no realistic option to respond. That is an already existing problem.

Yes the racing and the lap times would be a lot slower, but the racing would probably be better in that it would be fairer, there would be more braking distance and acceleration distance and drivers could be in a better position coming out of a corner to complete an overtake. It would also mean combinations of corners could be used as an overtaking opportunity in more places, in more circuits.
They might even be able to get rid of DRS.

It would take a short while to get used to, but IMO would be better for the sport in the long run.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Yeah let's make F1 even more boring.
They could just replace the drivers with robots, that way no errors will ever be made and enough space will be left for overtaking...

I liked Vettel's anger management issues, it showed me he was human, and spiced up things. That's the kind of F1 i want to see. Overtaking wheel to wheel, drivers hating each others guts! Not this politically correct blabla, where every move has to be analyzed and penalized.

Funny reading comments about Verstappen making it impossible to overtake. You can't seriously put this on him. Overtaking was dead before he entered F1.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:24 am 
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babararacucudada wrote:
I've never liked the 'forcing another driver off the track' part of F1. I don't think it should be acceptable. They are supposed to race on the track - that's what it is there for.

They could automate things to some extent. The outer edge of the white line could be the visual indicator of the outer limit of the track, but they could have a buried cable which was detected by a sensor (and a backup in case it failed) in the centre of each car.
The sensor would need to be capable of sensing the distance to the cable accurately from up to two car's widths. It needs to be a system that allows the stewards to decide very quickly if a punishment needs to be applied.

They can work out a punishment system based on staying within the track limits when driving, and rules for leaving a car's width when a car is overlapping you.

They would also have to have to have realistic rules regarding what is considered an overlap - ie. if the driver in front has no way of telling there is an overlap, or the overlap has occurred so suddenly that he has no realistic option to respond. That is an already existing problem.

Yes the racing and the lap times would be a lot slower, but the racing would probably be better in that it would be fairer, there would be more braking distance and acceleration distance and drivers could be in a better position coming out of a corner to complete an overtake. It would also mean combinations of corners could be used as an overtaking opportunity in more places, in more circuits.
They might even be able to get rid of DRS.

It would take a short while to get used to, but IMO would be better for the sport in the long run.

Better still - bring back gravel traps!

They worked very well in discouraging drivers from bad driving.

Get it wrong (when either overtaking or defending), the driver was likely to end his race - or suffer a severe penalty for ending another drivers' race :) .


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:08 am 
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Unfortunately it seems Max has looked at Senna and MS and decided to follow them in stamping his authority on the track now while he's in a position to do so. It's a smart policy actually, he knows he's not going to win the WDC so he can afford to crash a few times now - in the process establishing in the other drivers minds that he is not to be messed with. Long term, this is going to be very useful.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:18 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Unfortunately it seems Max has looked at Senna and MS and decided to follow them in stamping his authority on the track now while he's in a position to do so. It's a smart policy actually, he knows he's not going to win the WDC so he can afford to crash a few times now - in the process establishing in the other drivers minds that he is not to be messed with. Long term, this is going to be very useful.


When you are running for the WDC, 2 DNFs are enough to put you out of the race.
With Max I see a guy who is not an "expert"(yet) taking videogame lines(3 wide into the first corner? what was that weird last year SPA line at the start?), or putting his wheel where there is not enough grip.

He still makes mistakes people who have successfully honed their skills in lower categories don't.

His "ignorance" has been his strength and has made him experiment weird lines on track like in Monaco or Brazil last year. Sometimes it works(and they call you a genius), sometimes it doesn't(and you are in the wall).


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:29 am 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
drivers hating each others guts! Not this politically correct blabla, where every move has to be analyzed and penalized.


I suggest you start watching boxing instead of F1.

Knuppel1983 wrote:
Funny reading comments about Verstappen making it impossible to overtake. You can't seriously put this on him. Overtaking was dead before he entered F1.


Yeah, I can't remember seeing a single overtake in F1 until Verstappen showed up . . .


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:32 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
I've never liked the 'forcing another driver off the track' part of F1. I don't think it should be acceptable. They are supposed to race on the track - that's what it is there for.

They could automate things to some extent. The outer edge of the white line could be the visual indicator of the outer limit of the track, but they could have a buried cable which was detected by a sensor (and a backup in case it failed) in the centre of each car.
The sensor would need to be capable of sensing the distance to the cable accurately from up to two car's widths. It needs to be a system that allows the stewards to decide very quickly if a punishment needs to be applied.

They can work out a punishment system based on staying within the track limits when driving, and rules for leaving a car's width when a car is overlapping you.

They would also have to have to have realistic rules regarding what is considered an overlap - ie. if the driver in front has no way of telling there is an overlap, or the overlap has occurred so suddenly that he has no realistic option to respond. That is an already existing problem.

Yes the racing and the lap times would be a lot slower, but the racing would probably be better in that it would be fairer, there would be more braking distance and acceleration distance and drivers could be in a better position coming out of a corner to complete an overtake. It would also mean combinations of corners could be used as an overtaking opportunity in more places, in more circuits.
They might even be able to get rid of DRS.

It would take a short while to get used to, but IMO would be better for the sport in the long run.

Better still - bring back gravel traps!

They worked very well in discouraging drivers from bad driving.

Get it wrong (when either overtaking or defending), the driver was likely to end his race - or suffer a severe penalty for ending another drivers' race :) .
But gravel traps don't punish the one who is pushing another driver off the track. It never works without proper stewarding, which never properly works without race control reporting each and every transgression, and without the marshal posts reporting them to race control.

I can't believe Knuppel thinks F1 is boring. It isn't!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:34 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Unfortunately it seems Max has looked at Senna and MS and decided to follow them in stamping his authority on the track now while he's in a position to do so. It's a smart policy actually, he knows he's not going to win the WDC so he can afford to crash a few times now - in the process establishing in the other drivers minds that he is not to be messed with. Long term, this is going to be very useful.
You are right. I wouldn't mind talking to Jos about his son's racing philosophy, I believe he would agree with you.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:06 am 
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Fiki wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
I've never liked the 'forcing another driver off the track' part of F1. I don't think it should be acceptable. They are supposed to race on the track - that's what it is there for.

They could automate things to some extent. The outer edge of the white line could be the visual indicator of the outer limit of the track, but they could have a buried cable which was detected by a sensor (and a backup in case it failed) in the centre of each car.
The sensor would need to be capable of sensing the distance to the cable accurately from up to two car's widths. It needs to be a system that allows the stewards to decide very quickly if a punishment needs to be applied.

They can work out a punishment system based on staying within the track limits when driving, and rules for leaving a car's width when a car is overlapping you.

They would also have to have to have realistic rules regarding what is considered an overlap - ie. if the driver in front has no way of telling there is an overlap, or the overlap has occurred so suddenly that he has no realistic option to respond. That is an already existing problem.

Yes the racing and the lap times would be a lot slower, but the racing would probably be better in that it would be fairer, there would be more braking distance and acceleration distance and drivers could be in a better position coming out of a corner to complete an overtake. It would also mean combinations of corners could be used as an overtaking opportunity in more places, in more circuits.
They might even be able to get rid of DRS.

It would take a short while to get used to, but IMO would be better for the sport in the long run.

Better still - bring back gravel traps!

They worked very well in discouraging drivers from bad driving.

Get it wrong (when either overtaking or defending), the driver was likely to end his race - or suffer a severe penalty for ending another drivers' race :) .
But gravel traps don't punish the one who is pushing another driver off the track. It never works without proper stewarding, which never properly works without race control reporting each and every transgression, and without the marshal posts reporting them to race control.

I can't believe Knuppel thinks F1 is boring. It isn't!


I guess Formula E is an example of using the track to race on. Monaco is another, but the difference is, if the lead driver is required to allow an overtaking driver room to stay on the track (and there isn't a physical barrier carrying a high risk), then it wouldn't be so impossible to overtake.
The circuits would need to be altered (widened in some places) for the 'race on the track' rules to work well.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:01 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Fiki wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
I've never liked the 'forcing another driver off the track' part of F1. I don't think it should be acceptable. They are supposed to race on the track - that's what it is there for.

They could automate things to some extent. The outer edge of the white line could be the visual indicator of the outer limit of the track, but they could have a buried cable which was detected by a sensor (and a backup in case it failed) in the centre of each car.
The sensor would need to be capable of sensing the distance to the cable accurately from up to two car's widths. It needs to be a system that allows the stewards to decide very quickly if a punishment needs to be applied.

They can work out a punishment system based on staying within the track limits when driving, and rules for leaving a car's width when a car is overlapping you.

They would also have to have to have realistic rules regarding what is considered an overlap - ie. if the driver in front has no way of telling there is an overlap, or the overlap has occurred so suddenly that he has no realistic option to respond. That is an already existing problem.

Yes the racing and the lap times would be a lot slower, but the racing would probably be better in that it would be fairer, there would be more braking distance and acceleration distance and drivers could be in a better position coming out of a corner to complete an overtake. It would also mean combinations of corners could be used as an overtaking opportunity in more places, in more circuits.
They might even be able to get rid of DRS.

It would take a short while to get used to, but IMO would be better for the sport in the long run.

Better still - bring back gravel traps!

They worked very well in discouraging drivers from bad driving.

Get it wrong (when either overtaking or defending), the driver was likely to end his race - or suffer a severe penalty for ending another drivers' race :) .
But gravel traps don't punish the one who is pushing another driver off the track. It never works without proper stewarding, which never properly works without race control reporting each and every transgression, and without the marshal posts reporting them to race control.

I can't believe Knuppel thinks F1 is boring. It isn't!


I guess Formula E is an example of using the track to race on. Monaco is another, but the difference is, if the lead driver is required to allow an overtaking driver room to stay on the track (and there isn't a physical barrier carrying a high risk), then it wouldn't be so impossible to overtake.
The circuits would need to be altered (widened in some places) for the 'race on the track' rules to work well.
Not necessarily; the black-and-white flag or simply the black flag can and should be used more. The Schumacher tactic of deliberately misinterpreting a rule, then abuse it, and then asking for "clarification" when challenged, should have been nipped in the bud.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
No different to any other driver currently. If you put your car on the outside unless you can get half a cars length ahead you will just get run off the road.

We saw in the last race Bottas did it to Verstappen, Sainz did it to Alonso and Magnussen did it to Hulkenberg.

No I'm not talking about crowding another driver off the track which is a gradual movement giving the other driver plenty of time to react, I'm talking about the need of a driver to react quickly to avoid an accident which is the position that Verstappen consistently puts other drivers into.

I've stated consistently that the way Verstappen drives he will be involved in more collisions then any of the other top drivers and indeed that seems to be how it's playing out for him.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:04 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Going on previous explanations by Hamilton, he wasn't "ahead" and on the outside, so according to himself, Verstappen had the right to run all the way to the outside of the track... That would also mean that him saying Verstappen is dangerous is rather hypocritical. (Edit: this is my interpretation of Hamilton's views, not my own!)

I'm glad I saw the Magnussen clip, I didn't realise just how silly Hulkenberg was acting there. Perhaps even dangerous.

It can't be easy having to decide which cases are simply racing incidents, and which drivers need a penalty in order for them to realise they need to clean up their racing. Far more than the 4826th interview with Hamilton or Vettel, I would like to see an in-depth interview with people like Derek Warwick and Derek Daly. (Just two names I can actually remember as having served as driver-stewards... :blush: )

This wasn't a case of being run off the track but of another car dive bombing on the inside and the car on the outside having to take avoiding action, in this case I would call it normal racing but still it's Verstappen's normal way of risking contact when defending his position.
No, Pokerman, you're wrong. I just watched the overtake attempt by Hamilton again and it was he who tried to overtake Verstappen, who defended the inside. The attempt came at the restart after a SC period, with Hamilton behind.
No dive bombing, just a failed attempt to overtake around the outside. Which means that the risk he was talking about refers to the difference between attacking a team-mate and a competitor from another team. Or in other words, knowing there is very little to keep a competitor from running you off the track, the way they saw you do to your ex-team-mate...

So you see, Knuppel, I can defend Max when there are grounds for doing so, just as I did when Schumacher kept it sporting once in a while. :D

I said that Verstappen was defending his position so how I was wrong, the point I was making with Verstappen is that if you put your car in danger around him don't be surprised if it gets hit.
You said he was dive bombing. He didn't. Hamilton couldn't make his overtake attempt stick, because it was too optimistic without DRS. Rather than risk being run off the track, he thought better of it. Why Hamilton made that radio call is a bit puzzling, except if you see it as an attempt to discredit a perfectly fine defence.

How was Hamilton at risk of being run off the track when he turned suddenly to the left to avoid contact with Verstappen and still remained on the track, this was more to do with corner entry rather than corner exit.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:07 pm 
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Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.

Exactly this you can't trust Verstappen, you can't race wheel to wheel with him because like Ricciardo said he always has to win, so if needs be he's happy to make contact or certainly risk making contact.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.

Exactly this you can't trust Verstappen, you can't race wheel to wheel with him because like Ricciardo said he always has to win, so if needs be he's happy to make contact or certainly risk making contact.


Verstappen drives the same as the majority of the drivers out there. They all run each other off the road.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:25 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Unfortunately it seems Max has looked at Senna and MS and decided to follow them in stamping his authority on the track now while he's in a position to do so. It's a smart policy actually, he knows he's not going to win the WDC so he can afford to crash a few times now - in the process establishing in the other drivers minds that he is not to be messed with. Long term, this is going to be very useful.

Indeed he presently has little to lose, but when other drivers find themselves with nothing to lose in the future how easy do they want to make things for Verstappen when he himself has a title on the line?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.

Exactly this you can't trust Verstappen, you can't race wheel to wheel with him because like Ricciardo said he always has to win, so if needs be he's happy to make contact or certainly risk making contact.


Verstappen drives the same as the majority of the drivers out there. They all run each other off the road.

I was thinking more the way he drives on the entry to corners.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.

Exactly this you can't trust Verstappen, you can't race wheel to wheel with him because like Ricciardo said he always has to win, so if needs be he's happy to make contact or certainly risk making contact.


Verstappen drives the same as the majority of the drivers out there. They all run each other off the road.

I was thinking more the way he drives on the entry to corners.


He's gone over the mark occasionally. - And it is very occasional - but he's done little I haven't seen from other drivers. It gets ignored generally when other drivers do it. Verstappen certainly seems to be held to a higher standard than any other driver.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
He isn't 'rough' he's reckless and irresponsible. If everybody drove like him there would be no wheel-to-wheel racing at all because nobody would dare to. Close racing requires a level of trust and Verstappen doesn't exactly inspire that with his 'try to pass me and we'll crash' attitude. As others have said, he's a disaster waiting to happen.

Exactly this you can't trust Verstappen, you can't race wheel to wheel with him because like Ricciardo said he always has to win, so if needs be he's happy to make contact or certainly risk making contact.


Verstappen drives the same as the majority of the drivers out there. They all run each other off the road.

I was thinking more the way he drives on the entry to corners.


He's gone over the mark occasionally. - And it is very occasional - but he's done little I haven't seen from other drivers. It gets ignored generally when other drivers do it. Verstappen certainly seems to be held to a higher standard than any other driver.

No he isn't he just oversteps the mark more than the other top drivers, now if we are comparing with other drivers further down the grid then fair enough but these drivers by and large get ignored apart from Torpedo. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
No he isn't he just oversteps the mark more than the other top drivers, now if we are comparing with other drivers further down the grid then fair enough but these drivers by and large get ignored apart from Torpedo. :)


I think most of the top guys do dodgy things as well. Just in the last race Bottas was all to happy to crash into Verstappen coming out of turn 1.

Look how much Verstappen was vilified for his mistake in the last race. He's never really made a major error lie that before but from the way people speak you'd think he does it all the time.


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