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 Post subject: Double standards FIA!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:20 pm 
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So we watched Max take out his teammate in Hungary. Braking too late and locking up. Unfortunately he hit Dan's car where it hurt most.
10 seconds stop-go penalty from the stewards and 2 points on his license.

Now let's compare that to Bottas' actions in Spain and Azerbaijan.
- Spain: Bottas braked too late and took out Raikonnen and Verstappen. -> no action taken
- Azerbaijan: Bottas braked late jumped the curbes and dives into Raikonnen (competition) -> no action taken

Or heck, even Vettel's action in Azerbaijan.
- Bumping into Lewis intentionally -> 10 seconds stop-go penalty, 3 penalty points


So Max' action, which caused harm to his own team only, should be punished equally to Vettel, who intentionally drives into his competitor??? :-|
And how is Max' action less of a racing incident compared to Bottas? Moreover, I don't understand why it is necessary punish a team, who is already punished with losing 1 car. When it comes to the top 3 drivers, the stewards make their decisions based on the overall standings. And that's just not ok... Vettel should have been disqualified. :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:29 pm 
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So is this an elaborate way of saying you are still unhappy that Vettel wasn't punished more severely in Baku? It's worthy of a new thread?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:32 pm 
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What i'm saying: the FIA is killing F1 for non-Merc / Ferarri fans.
Every driver should be treated equally. The name, team, overall standing, or outcome of an action, should not influence the action taken. If F1 is so boring that Vettel cannot be disqualified, they should change the sport. But this is just unfair competition.


Last edited by Knuppel1983 on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:34 pm 
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FIA has different standards for different drivers and different championship positions. Everyone knows this!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:38 pm 
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You're not comparing like for like, though. The Vettel incident in Baku isn't really comparable to other racing incidents. It's a disciplinary question, more than a sporting one.

Secondly, I can't at the moment remember the incident with Bottas in Spain, but in Baku he was a bit unfortunate that the kerb made him lose control. I don't think it's quite the same as Max barreling in far too fast. I think every clash isn't the same and shouldn't automatically get the same punishment


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:44 pm 
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What I find most baffling is that Verstappen makes a mistake that results in a crash and gets a 10 second penalty, Magnussen delibrately rams Hulkenberg off the track and gets just 5.

How can that be right? How can a deliberate cheat get less of a penalty than someone misjudging a braking point?

I know I go on about this but I loathe the current culture of it being ok for drivers to shove each other off the track.

Look at Verstappen and Bottas in turn 1. Bottas very deliberately pushed Verstappen off the track. If Verstappen doesn't leave the track Bottas drives into the side of him and gets the blame for the crash.

How is this behaviour continuously allowed?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:52 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
What I find most baffling is that Verstappen makes a mistake that results in a crash and gets a 10 second penalty, Magnussen delibrately rams Hulkenberg off the track and gets just 5.

How can that be right? How can a deliberate cheat get less of a penalty than someone misjudging a braking point?

I know I go on about this but I loathe the current culture of it being ok for drivers to shove each other off the track.

Look at Verstappen and Bottas in turn 1. Bottas very deliberately pushed Verstappen off the track. If Verstappen doesn't leave the track Bottas drives into the side of him and gets the blame for the crash.

How is this behaviour continuously allowed?

Yes I agree this is frustrating and shouldn't be allowed


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:05 pm 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
So we watched Max take out his teammate in Hungary. Braking too late and locking up. Unfortunately he hit Dan's car where it hurt most.
10 seconds stop-go penalty from the stewards and 2 points on his license.

Now let's compare that to Bottas' actions in Spain and Azerbaijan.
- Spain: Bottas braked too late and took out Raikonnen and Verstappen. -> no action taken
- Azerbaijan: Bottas braked late jumped the curbes and dives into Raikonnen (competition) -> no action taken

Or heck, even Vettel's action in Azerbaijan.
- Bumping into Lewis intentionally -> 10 seconds stop-go penalty, 3 penalty points


So Max' action, which caused harm to his own team only, should be punished equally to Vettel, who intentionally drives into his competitor??? :-|
And how is Max' action less of a racing incident compared to Bottas? Moreover, I don't understand why it is necessary punish a team, who is already punished with losing 1 car. When it comes to the top 3 drivers, the stewards make their decisions based on the overall standings. And that's just not ok... Vettel should have been disqualified. :thumbdown:


Just for the sake of accuracy - not to be a pedant or anything - Max wasn't given a 10 sec Stop-and-Go penalty; he was given a 10 sec penalty which is allowed to be added to the first pitstop.

This is far more lenient than a 10 sec Stop-and-Go where a driver has to drive into the pits, hold for 10 secs and then exit without anyone being allowed to touch the car in any way.

I do take on board your point though.

Part of the problem is that FIA for some reason insists that permanent stewards who travel with 'the circus' aren't required and that the job can be adequately done by a former driver (generally of the nationality of the race if possible, I believe?) and whoever else they (the FIA) needs to keep 'sweet' by offering an all-expenses trip to a GP.

Of course this is going to lead to similar incidents being seen and punished (or not) differently.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
You're not comparing like for like, though. The Vettel incident in Baku isn't really comparable to other racing incidents. It's a disciplinary question, more than a sporting one.

Secondly, I can't at the moment remember the incident with Bottas in Spain, but in Baku he was a bit unfortunate that the kerb made him lose control. I don't think it's quite the same as Max barreling in far too fast. I think every clash isn't the same and shouldn't automatically get the same punishment

BIB…

What Max did in Hungary was not in any way malicious and he's generally VERY good and late braking and maintaining his line in these situations. In this incident you can clearly see he's got full left lock but the car was just carrying too much speed and drifted regardless of him holding his wheel left. It happens and this is an incident that deserved no penalty because the driver never intentionally set out to force the other wide, but rather tried to defend his position within the confines of the track without purposely hindering anyone. Was it a bit off?… perhaps… Should it have been punished? Absolutely not!

It seems in this Social Media happy politically correct day and age, even racing is being policed in a way so as to appease the general masses whom don't know that the competitors are participating to win rather than just to enjoy turning laps with the rest of the field.

Ironically, Ricciardo, as much as I really like the guy, is the driver who has dive bombed down the inside incorrectly more than most current drivers, and has forced others to take evasive action, allowing both drivers to continue, while he gains the advantage from such poorly calculated moves born out of desperation. Just saying.

What Magnussen did to Hulkenberg was done with clear intent and it he was rightly punished, but I think Hulk should have punched him in the mouth when he told him to suck his balls! 8O
If it were me they'd still be trying to pull me off the guy. That kind of attitude is the kind of stuff a sport as dangerous as F1 does not need.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
What I find most baffling is that Verstappen makes a mistake that results in a crash and gets a 10 second penalty, Magnussen delibrately rams Hulkenberg off the track and gets just 5.

How can that be right? How can a deliberate cheat get less of a penalty than someone misjudging a braking point?

I know I go on about this but I loathe the current culture of it being ok for drivers to shove each other off the track.

Look at Verstappen and Bottas in turn 1. Bottas very deliberately pushed Verstappen off the track. If Verstappen doesn't leave the track Bottas drives into the side of him and gets the blame for the crash.

How is this behaviour continuously allowed?

I'm soooooooo with you there on this. Maybe they need to introduce the spiked lug nuts to the wheels so if you come into contact wioth the guy next to you both cars will be shredded and if contact is made at just the right spot it may rip a leg off. Perhaps this would force drivers to practice proper driving etiquette.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:27 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
What I find most baffling is that Verstappen makes a mistake that results in a crash and gets a 10 second penalty, Magnussen delibrately rams Hulkenberg off the track and gets just 5.

How can that be right? How can a deliberate cheat get less of a penalty than someone misjudging a braking point?

I know I go on about this but I loathe the current culture of it being ok for drivers to shove each other off the track.

Look at Verstappen and Bottas in turn 1. Bottas very deliberately pushed Verstappen off the track. If Verstappen doesn't leave the track Bottas drives into the side of him and gets the blame for the crash.

How is this behaviour continuously allowed?

I'm soooooooo with you there on this. Maybe they need to introduce the spiked lug nuts to the wheels so if you come into contact wioth the guy next to you both cars will be shredded and if contact is made at just the right spot it may rip a leg off. Perhaps this would force drivers to practice proper driving etiquette.


Just put the gravel make and the driver on the outside won't be so happy to leave the track. After losing a few front wings the driver on the inside will be less willing to professional foul. At the moment there is little consequence.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
What I find most baffling is that Verstappen makes a mistake that results in a crash and gets a 10 second penalty, Magnussen delibrately rams Hulkenberg off the track and gets just 5.

How can that be right? How can a deliberate cheat get less of a penalty than someone misjudging a braking point?

I know I go on about this but I loathe the current culture of it being ok for drivers to shove each other off the track.

Look at Verstappen and Bottas in turn 1. Bottas very deliberately pushed Verstappen off the track. If Verstappen doesn't leave the track Bottas drives into the side of him and gets the blame for the crash.

How is this behaviour continuously allowed?

I'm soooooooo with you there on this. Maybe they need to introduce the spiked lug nuts to the wheels so if you come into contact wioth the guy next to you both cars will be shredded and if contact is made at just the right spot it may rip a leg off. Perhaps this would force drivers to practice proper driving etiquette.


Just put the gravel make and the driver on the outside won't be so happy to leave the track. After losing a few front wings the driver on the inside will be less willing to professional foul. At the moment there is little consequence.


There's truth in that

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:53 pm 
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Been saying that for years now and I'm usually met with "it adds an unnecessary danger" & "it results in a driver prematurely ending his race" arguments and quite frankly, I disagree on the first one because for decades gravel traps existed with no ill effects other than drivers ending up stuck or on one driver's account, habitual landing upside down. I feel the change was made so as to allow star drivers to push beyond the limit without costing themselves DNF's, but it's led to GROSS abuse of track limits.

And to anyone who would argue against this I have but one counter argument that trumps all… Monaco.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:57 pm 
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MAX needs to understand he is not playing videogames.
Some of his driving screams "inexperience"(Junior series are there to learn) and overconfidence.

He went 3 wide in Spain and paid the price.
He clipped VET front wing in Canada.
Yesterday HAM, who stayed in the middle of the track to avoid mayhem from both the bulls, lost 2 places. You can not trust those 2 guys at the start. They really believe their own hype.
In Baku(or Silverstone?) he escaped another first lap crash.
VET race at Silverstone could have ended too with their "fight" if not for the skills of the German.

Marko and Mateschitz plan is to make him the youngest WDC ever, but I am afraid it is not going to happen as along as he has a competitive and mature teammate.

The irony is that LeClerc is more likely to dominate the field because he took the proper steps(like Hamilton) and didn't rush things because he or his entourage was aiming for youngest ever records.


Last edited by Pullrod on Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:58 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Been saying that for years now and I'm usually met with "it adds an unnecessary danger" & "it results in a driver prematurely ending his race" arguments and quite frankly, I disagree on the first one because for decades gravel traps existed with no ill effects other than drivers ending up stuck or on one driver's account, habitual landing upside down. I feel the change was made so as to allow star drivers to push beyond the limit without costing themselves DNF's, but it's led to GROSS abuse of track limits.

And to anyone who would argue against this I have but one counter argument that trumps all… Monaco.


I agree. having a tarmac run off changes a way a driver even contemplates taking a corner. I honestly don't think they appreciated how much it would change the sport when they made the decision to do away with gravel.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:40 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
You're not comparing like for like, though. The Vettel incident in Baku isn't really comparable to other racing incidents. It's a disciplinary question, more than a sporting one.

Secondly, I can't at the moment remember the incident with Bottas in Spain, but in Baku he was a bit unfortunate that the kerb made him lose control. I don't think it's quite the same as Max barreling in far too fast. I think every clash isn't the same and shouldn't automatically get the same punishment

BIB…

What Max did in Hungary was not in any way malicious and he's generally VERY good and late braking and maintaining his line in these situations. In this incident you can clearly see he's got full left lock but the car was just carrying too much speed and drifted regardless of him holding his wheel left. It happens and this is an incident that deserved no penalty because the driver never intentionally set out to force the other wide, but rather tried to defend his position within the confines of the track without purposely hindering anyone. Was it a bit off?… perhaps… Should it have been punished? Absolutely not!

It seems in this Social Media happy politically correct day and age, even racing is being policed in a way so as to appease the general masses whom don't know that the competitors are participating to win rather than just to enjoy turning laps with the rest of the field.

Ironically, Ricciardo, as much as I really like the guy, is the driver who has dive bombed down the inside incorrectly more than most current drivers, and has forced others to take evasive action, allowing both drivers to continue, while he gains the advantage from such poorly calculated moves born out of desperation. Just saying.

What Magnussen did to Hulkenberg was done with clear intent and it he was rightly punished, but I think Hulk should have punched him in the mouth when he told him to suck his balls! 8O
If it were me they'd still be trying to pull me off the guy. That kind of attitude is the kind of stuff a sport as dangerous as F1 does not need.

Re: Max - I'm not saying it was malicious, but the difference between Max and Bottas was that Bottas was affected by external factors (the kerb), whereas Max's issue was all down to him. Does it deserve a penalty? I'm in two minds. On the one hand, I don't like seeing penalties given out like confetti. OTOH, I don't think a driver should ruin another's race due to poor judgement, so on balance I'd say Max did deserve one. Even though I was peed at Bottas at the time, I'd say a penalty for him would have been a little harsh.

Re: Hulk / KM - Hulk deserved the retort, IMO. He gatecrashed KM's interview and sarcastically awarded him the prize for most unsportsmanlike driver. I think Hulk lost the right to any sympathy right there.

Agree about Ricciardo. I've actually gone off the guy because I think he uses his car as a battering ram far too often. And I think he has gotten away with it far too much, too. I don't think overtaking is wow when it revolves around the other guy having to take avoiding action or end his race


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
What I find most baffling is that Verstappen makes a mistake that results in a crash and gets a 10 second penalty, Magnussen delibrately rams Hulkenberg off the track and gets just 5.

How can that be right? How can a deliberate cheat get less of a penalty than someone misjudging a braking point?

I know I go on about this but I loathe the current culture of it being ok for drivers to shove each other off the track.

Look at Verstappen and Bottas in turn 1. Bottas very deliberately pushed Verstappen off the track. If Verstappen doesn't leave the track Bottas drives into the side of him and gets the blame for the crash.

How is this behaviour continuously allowed?

Totally agree, all the drivers are guilty of this now and it irritates me no end. Yet strangely a lot of ex-drivers seem to condone it which surprises me.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:57 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
FIA has different standards for different drivers and different championship positions. Everyone knows this!

Indeed. This is my biggest gripe with how the stewarding is conducted at the moment. To me the most unsavoury aspect of the Vettel incident in Baku was hearing that the effect on the championship standings was taken into consideration when deciding the punishment. That I find atrocious.

It's not a new thing either. We saw it back in 2007 with Spygate, where McLaren and both of their drivers should have been excluded from the championship (though I still believe that they effectively were and that we were served up a staged façade of a title fight that year).


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
You're not comparing like for like, though. The Vettel incident in Baku isn't really comparable to other racing incidents. It's a disciplinary question, more than a sporting one.

Secondly, I can't at the moment remember the incident with Bottas in Spain, but in Baku he was a bit unfortunate that the kerb made him lose control. I don't think it's quite the same as Max barreling in far too fast. I think every clash isn't the same and shouldn't automatically get the same punishment

BIB…

What Max did in Hungary was not in any way malicious and he's generally VERY good and late braking and maintaining his line in these situations. In this incident you can clearly see he's got full left lock but the car was just carrying too much speed and drifted regardless of him holding his wheel left. It happens and this is an incident that deserved no penalty because the driver never intentionally set out to force the other wide, but rather tried to defend his position within the confines of the track without purposely hindering anyone. Was it a bit off?… perhaps… Should it have been punished? Absolutely not!

It seems in this Social Media happy politically correct day and age, even racing is being policed in a way so as to appease the general masses whom don't know that the competitors are participating to win rather than just to enjoy turning laps with the rest of the field.

Ironically, Ricciardo, as much as I really like the guy, is the driver who has dive bombed down the inside incorrectly more than most current drivers, and has forced others to take evasive action, allowing both drivers to continue, while he gains the advantage from such poorly calculated moves born out of desperation. Just saying.

What Magnussen did to Hulkenberg was done with clear intent and it he was rightly punished, but I think Hulk should have punched him in the mouth when he told him to suck his balls! 8O
If it were me they'd still be trying to pull me off the guy. That kind of attitude is the kind of stuff a sport as dangerous as F1 does not need.

Re: Max - I'm not saying it was malicious, but the difference between Max and Bottas was that Bottas was affected by external factors (the kerb), whereas Max's issue was all down to him. Does it deserve a penalty? I'm in two minds. On the one hand, I don't like seeing penalties given out like confetti. OTOH, I don't think a driver should ruin another's race due to poor judgement, so on balance I'd say Max did deserve one. Even though I was peed at Bottas at the time, I'd say a penalty for him would have been a little harsh.

Re: Hulk / KM - Hulk deserved the retort, IMO. He gatecrashed KM's interview and sarcastically awarded him the prize for most unsportsmanlike driver. I think Hulk lost the right to any sympathy right there.

Agree about Ricciardo. I've actually gone off the guy because I think he uses his car as a battering ram far too often. And I think he has gotten away with it far too much, too. I don't think overtaking is wow when it revolves around the other guy having to take avoiding action or end his race

Re: Max…

How often are we faced with having to decide whether an incident was due to simple miscalculation vs. calling it a mere racing incident? Of those times, how often is it deemed a racing incident because neither driver did anything out of the norm to cause the incident?

When assessing this particular incident, While Max's speed was what caused the contact, he never made any move or attempt so as to intimidate his teammate, or anyone in that corner. As such I feel this is one of the very few incidents I find to be a genuine racing incident and as such should not have warranted a penalty. In other incidents similar to this one where contact is made, usually one of the drivers at the very least flinches the wheel towards the car they're defending against which aides in the contact. As well Verstappen was only JUST slightly hot going into the turn rather than over cooking it so it's telling he wasn't defending wildly, at all costs. If I were in his shoes in that corner I'd do exactly as Max did because all he was trying to do was not lose too much speed in order to be able to out accelerate the guy trying to overtake so he'd be able to hold that position.

I think Ricciardo was a bit out of line in running his mouth before having scrutinized the video and speaking to his teammate. Verstappen was very apologetic about it but admitted he made a slight mistake. This is a game where thousands of a second make the difference and as such, crap will happen, Teammate or otherwise.


As for Hulk crashing Magnussen's interview, I've seen the interview crash by Hulk and I don't have an issue with it whatsoever. All he said was once again you win most unsportsman-like driver of the race, to which Magnussen replied, suck my balls. Just because someone calls you out doesn't mean you get a free pass to be vulgar towards them.

I really like Magnussen a lot and I find he was a total douche in this entire incident. From the intentional and unnecessary pushing of Hulk off the track to the vulgar retort, Magnussen was in the wrong. Time and place is a poor argument here for me. Hulk had every right to call Magnussen out because he wasn't making anything up or over-embellishing on anything. Just expressing displeasure.

I don't think for a second that if someone pushed you off the track in that manner, you'd let it go.
I know I wouldn't and I'd probably not be as gentlemanly as Hulk was. While I'm more passive the way Hulk was here, If he told someone like my brother to suck his balls he'd likely knock him out. And I don't mean stagger him, I mean laid out for a couple minutes for being such a disrespectful little turd.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VETTEL :: ROSBERG :: RAIKKONEN :: VERSTAPPEN :: SAINZ :: MASSA :: BOTTAS :: NASR
ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:06 pm 
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Look at Formula E.
Way more crashes, but far less penalties. And it's good fun to watch. Buemi gets hit in the last race, as a result has a loose part, and gets the meatbal flag. Which means his direct competitor wins the championship. No fuss, just correctly applied rules.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:41 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
You're not comparing like for like, though. The Vettel incident in Baku isn't really comparable to other racing incidents. It's a disciplinary question, more than a sporting one.

Secondly, I can't at the moment remember the incident with Bottas in Spain, but in Baku he was a bit unfortunate that the kerb made him lose control. I don't think it's quite the same as Max barreling in far too fast. I think every clash isn't the same and shouldn't automatically get the same punishment

BIB…

What Max did in Hungary was not in any way malicious and he's generally VERY good and late braking and maintaining his line in these situations. In this incident you can clearly see he's got full left lock but the car was just carrying too much speed and drifted regardless of him holding his wheel left. It happens and this is an incident that deserved no penalty because the driver never intentionally set out to force the other wide, but rather tried to defend his position within the confines of the track without purposely hindering anyone. Was it a bit off?… perhaps… Should it have been punished? Absolutely not!

It seems in this Social Media happy politically correct day and age, even racing is being policed in a way so as to appease the general masses whom don't know that the competitors are participating to win rather than just to enjoy turning laps with the rest of the field.

Ironically, Ricciardo, as much as I really like the guy, is the driver who has dive bombed down the inside incorrectly more than most current drivers, and has forced others to take evasive action, allowing both drivers to continue, while he gains the advantage from such poorly calculated moves born out of desperation. Just saying.

What Magnussen did to Hulkenberg was done with clear intent and it he was rightly punished, but I think Hulk should have punched him in the mouth when he told him to suck his balls! 8O
If it were me they'd still be trying to pull me off the guy. That kind of attitude is the kind of stuff a sport as dangerous as F1 does not need.

Re: Max - I'm not saying it was malicious, but the difference between Max and Bottas was that Bottas was affected by external factors (the kerb), whereas Max's issue was all down to him. Does it deserve a penalty? I'm in two minds. On the one hand, I don't like seeing penalties given out like confetti. OTOH, I don't think a driver should ruin another's race due to poor judgement, so on balance I'd say Max did deserve one. Even though I was peed at Bottas at the time, I'd say a penalty for him would have been a little harsh.

Re: Hulk / KM - Hulk deserved the retort, IMO. He gatecrashed KM's interview and sarcastically awarded him the prize for most unsportsmanlike driver. I think Hulk lost the right to any sympathy right there.

Agree about Ricciardo. I've actually gone off the guy because I think he uses his car as a battering ram far too often. And I think he has gotten away with it far too much, too. I don't think overtaking is wow when it revolves around the other guy having to take avoiding action or end his race

Re: Max…

How often are we faced with having to decide whether an incident was due to simple miscalculation vs. calling it a mere racing incident? Of those times, how often is it deemed a racing incident because neither driver did anything out of the norm to cause the incident?

When assessing this particular incident, While Max's speed was what caused the contact, he never made any move or attempt so as to intimidate his teammate, or anyone in that corner. As such I feel this is one of the very few incidents I find to be a genuine racing incident and as such should not have warranted a penalty. In other incidents similar to this one where contact is made, usually one of the drivers at the very least flinches the wheel towards the car they're defending against which aides in the contact. As well Verstappen was only JUST slightly hot going into the turn rather than over cooking it so it's telling he wasn't defending wildly, at all costs. If I were in his shoes in that corner I'd do exactly as Max did because all he was trying to do was not lose too much speed in order to be able to out accelerate the guy trying to overtake so he'd be able to hold that position.

I think Ricciardo was a bit out of line in running his mouth before having scrutinized the video and speaking to his teammate. Verstappen was very apologetic about it but admitted he made a slight mistake. This is a game where thousands of a second make the difference and as such, crap will happen, Teammate or otherwise.


As for Hulk crashing Magnussen's interview, I've seen the interview crash by Hulk and I don't have an issue with it whatsoever. All he said was once again you win most unsportsman-like driver of the race, to which Magnussen replied, suck my balls. Just because someone calls you out doesn't mean you get a free pass to be vulgar towards them.

I really like Magnussen a lot and I find he was a total douche in this entire incident. From the intentional and unnecessary pushing of Hulk off the track to the vulgar retort, Magnussen was in the wrong. Time and place is a poor argument here for me. Hulk had every right to call Magnussen out because he wasn't making anything up or over-embellishing on anything. Just expressing displeasure.

I don't think for a second that if someone pushed you off the track in that manner, you'd let it go.
I know I wouldn't and I'd probably not be as gentlemanly as Hulk was. While I'm more passive the way Hulk was here, If he told someone like my brother to suck his balls he'd likely knock him out. And I don't mean stagger him, I mean laid out for a couple minutes for being such a disrespectful little turd.

Well, I think Hulk was just as disrespectful by saying what he did in KM's interview. He lost the moral high ground right there. I don't think violence is the answer, tbh.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:52 pm 
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I think the 10s penalty was lenient for Max he should have gotten a drive through, also Bottas should have gotten same for Spain and Azerbaijan as well too.

It's ridiculous going into a corner too hot locking up and using a competitor for bumper cars.

It's as if when drivers lose position at the start then red mist sets in and they try to brake later than normal and thus end up ala Max and Valterri.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:05 pm 
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Hang on a sec, if Ricciardo wasn't there Max makes the corner EASY. The issue between Max and Bottas was due to both of them being caught out by the Ferrari's slower trek through turn 1. Max was on the outside and closed up on Kimi ultra-quick and it caused a bit of a chain reaction starting with Max first who purposely veered wide to avoid ramming into Raikkonen's rear and then Bottas found himself closing up about as fast and with nowhere to go his car drifted on Max. The difference is Max was quick to react and pulled himself off-track to avoid the contact which allowed Ricciardo to edge slightly ahead, but on the outside line rather than the prime line. And While Ricciardo had no fault in the contact, Max did what EVERY driver is supposed to do which is keep from losing positions. He was mildly faster than was ideal to hold the inside line but with everything that happened in under 3 seconds I think you have to give some leeway to the guy. He is only human.

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ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
You're not comparing like for like, though. The Vettel incident in Baku isn't really comparable to other racing incidents. It's a disciplinary question, more than a sporting one.

Secondly, I can't at the moment remember the incident with Bottas in Spain, but in Baku he was a bit unfortunate that the kerb made him lose control. I don't think it's quite the same as Max barreling in far too fast. I think every clash isn't the same and shouldn't automatically get the same punishment

BIB…

What Max did in Hungary was not in any way malicious and he's generally VERY good and late braking and maintaining his line in these situations. In this incident you can clearly see he's got full left lock but the car was just carrying too much speed and drifted regardless of him holding his wheel left. It happens and this is an incident that deserved no penalty because the driver never intentionally set out to force the other wide, but rather tried to defend his position within the confines of the track without purposely hindering anyone. Was it a bit off?… perhaps… Should it have been punished? Absolutely not!

It seems in this Social Media happy politically correct day and age, even racing is being policed in a way so as to appease the general masses whom don't know that the competitors are participating to win rather than just to enjoy turning laps with the rest of the field.

Ironically, Ricciardo, as much as I really like the guy, is the driver who has dive bombed down the inside incorrectly more than most current drivers, and has forced others to take evasive action, allowing both drivers to continue, while he gains the advantage from such poorly calculated moves born out of desperation. Just saying.

What Magnussen did to Hulkenberg was done with clear intent and it he was rightly punished, but I think Hulk should have punched him in the mouth when he told him to suck his balls! 8O
If it were me they'd still be trying to pull me off the guy. That kind of attitude is the kind of stuff a sport as dangerous as F1 does not need.

Re: Max - I'm not saying it was malicious, but the difference between Max and Bottas was that Bottas was affected by external factors (the kerb), whereas Max's issue was all down to him. Does it deserve a penalty? I'm in two minds. On the one hand, I don't like seeing penalties given out like confetti. OTOH, I don't think a driver should ruin another's race due to poor judgement, so on balance I'd say Max did deserve one. Even though I was peed at Bottas at the time, I'd say a penalty for him would have been a little harsh.

Re: Hulk / KM - Hulk deserved the retort, IMO. He gatecrashed KM's interview and sarcastically awarded him the prize for most unsportsmanlike driver. I think Hulk lost the right to any sympathy right there.

Agree about Ricciardo. I've actually gone off the guy because I think he uses his car as a battering ram far too often. And I think he has gotten away with it far too much, too. I don't think overtaking is wow when it revolves around the other guy having to take avoiding action or end his race

Re: Max…

How often are we faced with having to decide whether an incident was due to simple miscalculation vs. calling it a mere racing incident? Of those times, how often is it deemed a racing incident because neither driver did anything out of the norm to cause the incident?

When assessing this particular incident, While Max's speed was what caused the contact, he never made any move or attempt so as to intimidate his teammate, or anyone in that corner. As such I feel this is one of the very few incidents I find to be a genuine racing incident and as such should not have warranted a penalty. In other incidents similar to this one where contact is made, usually one of the drivers at the very least flinches the wheel towards the car they're defending against which aides in the contact. As well Verstappen was only JUST slightly hot going into the turn rather than over cooking it so it's telling he wasn't defending wildly, at all costs. If I were in his shoes in that corner I'd do exactly as Max did because all he was trying to do was not lose too much speed in order to be able to out accelerate the guy trying to overtake so he'd be able to hold that position.

I think Ricciardo was a bit out of line in running his mouth before having scrutinized the video and speaking to his teammate. Verstappen was very apologetic about it but admitted he made a slight mistake. This is a game where thousands of a second make the difference and as such, crap will happen, Teammate or otherwise.


As for Hulk crashing Magnussen's interview, I've seen the interview crash by Hulk and I don't have an issue with it whatsoever. All he said was once again you win most unsportsman-like driver of the race, to which Magnussen replied, suck my balls. Just because someone calls you out doesn't mean you get a free pass to be vulgar towards them.

I really like Magnussen a lot and I find he was a total douche in this entire incident. From the intentional and unnecessary pushing of Hulk off the track to the vulgar retort, Magnussen was in the wrong. Time and place is a poor argument here for me. Hulk had every right to call Magnussen out because he wasn't making anything up or over-embellishing on anything. Just expressing displeasure.

I don't think for a second that if someone pushed you off the track in that manner, you'd let it go.
I know I wouldn't and I'd probably not be as gentlemanly as Hulk was. While I'm more passive the way Hulk was here, If he told someone like my brother to suck his balls he'd likely knock him out. And I don't mean stagger him, I mean laid out for a couple minutes for being such a disrespectful little turd.

Well, I think Hulk was just as disrespectful by saying what he did in KM's interview. He lost the moral high ground right there. I don't think violence is the answer, tbh.

How is voicing your opinion disrespectful? As far as I recall calling a spade a spade isn't disrespectful, it's the truth.
I also don't feel like violence is the answer but sometimes a good punch in the mouth teaches more in an instant that a lifetime of being spoken to. That's a harsh fact of life and unfortunately some people need to be taught things a little differently when it seems the conventional and civilized ways don't accomplish the goal. Better that than a hot headed retaliatory moment on track if they have another close incident.

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ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
What I find most baffling is that Verstappen makes a mistake that results in a crash and gets a 10 second penalty, Magnussen delibrately rams Hulkenberg off the track and gets just 5.

How can that be right? How can a deliberate cheat get less of a penalty than someone misjudging a braking point?

I know I go on about this but I loathe the current culture of it being ok for drivers to shove each other off the track.

Look at Verstappen and Bottas in turn 1. Bottas very deliberately pushed Verstappen off the track. If Verstappen doesn't leave the track Bottas drives into the side of him and gets the blame for the crash.

How is this behaviour continuously allowed?

I think if you crash an opponent out of the race then don't be surprised if you get penalised for it.

Also this kind of carries on from what I said earlier in the season about Verstappen and him being over aggressive at the start of races.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:13 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Hang on a sec, if Ricciardo wasn't there Max makes the corner EASY. The issue between Max and Bottas was due to both of them being caught out by the Ferrari's slower trek through turn 1. Max was on the outside and closed up on Kimi ultra-quick and it caused a bit of a chain reaction starting with Max first who purposely veered wide to avoid ramming into Raikkonen's rear and then Bottas found himself closing up about as fast and with nowhere to go his car drifted on Max. The difference is Max was quick to react and pulled himself off-track to avoid the contact which allowed Ricciardo to edge slightly ahead, but on the outside line rather than the prime line. And While Ricciardo had no fault in the contact, Max did what EVERY driver is supposed to do which is keep from losing positions. He was mildly faster than was ideal to hold the inside line but with everything that happened in under 3 seconds I think you have to give some leeway to the guy. He is only human.


Wrong, even Horner admitted to it, there was no chance he was making that corner at all, you might want to check the post race interviews.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:14 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
BIB…

What Max did in Hungary was not in any way malicious and he's generally VERY good and late braking and maintaining his line in these situations. In this incident you can clearly see he's got full left lock but the car was just carrying too much speed and drifted regardless of him holding his wheel left. It happens and this is an incident that deserved no penalty because the driver never intentionally set out to force the other wide, but rather tried to defend his position within the confines of the track without purposely hindering anyone. Was it a bit off?… perhaps… Should it have been punished? Absolutely not!

It seems in this Social Media happy politically correct day and age, even racing is being policed in a way so as to appease the general masses whom don't know that the competitors are participating to win rather than just to enjoy turning laps with the rest of the field.

Ironically, Ricciardo, as much as I really like the guy, is the driver who has dive bombed down the inside incorrectly more than most current drivers, and has forced others to take evasive action, allowing both drivers to continue, while he gains the advantage from such poorly calculated moves born out of desperation. Just saying.

What Magnussen did to Hulkenberg was done with clear intent and it he was rightly punished, but I think Hulk should have punched him in the mouth when he told him to suck his balls! 8O
If it were me they'd still be trying to pull me off the guy. That kind of attitude is the kind of stuff a sport as dangerous as F1 does not need.

Re: Max - I'm not saying it was malicious, but the difference between Max and Bottas was that Bottas was affected by external factors (the kerb), whereas Max's issue was all down to him. Does it deserve a penalty? I'm in two minds. On the one hand, I don't like seeing penalties given out like confetti. OTOH, I don't think a driver should ruin another's race due to poor judgement, so on balance I'd say Max did deserve one. Even though I was peed at Bottas at the time, I'd say a penalty for him would have been a little harsh.

Re: Hulk / KM - Hulk deserved the retort, IMO. He gatecrashed KM's interview and sarcastically awarded him the prize for most unsportsmanlike driver. I think Hulk lost the right to any sympathy right there.

Agree about Ricciardo. I've actually gone off the guy because I think he uses his car as a battering ram far too often. And I think he has gotten away with it far too much, too. I don't think overtaking is wow when it revolves around the other guy having to take avoiding action or end his race

Re: Max…

How often are we faced with having to decide whether an incident was due to simple miscalculation vs. calling it a mere racing incident? Of those times, how often is it deemed a racing incident because neither driver did anything out of the norm to cause the incident?

When assessing this particular incident, While Max's speed was what caused the contact, he never made any move or attempt so as to intimidate his teammate, or anyone in that corner. As such I feel this is one of the very few incidents I find to be a genuine racing incident and as such should not have warranted a penalty. In other incidents similar to this one where contact is made, usually one of the drivers at the very least flinches the wheel towards the car they're defending against which aides in the contact. As well Verstappen was only JUST slightly hot going into the turn rather than over cooking it so it's telling he wasn't defending wildly, at all costs. If I were in his shoes in that corner I'd do exactly as Max did because all he was trying to do was not lose too much speed in order to be able to out accelerate the guy trying to overtake so he'd be able to hold that position.

I think Ricciardo was a bit out of line in running his mouth before having scrutinized the video and speaking to his teammate. Verstappen was very apologetic about it but admitted he made a slight mistake. This is a game where thousands of a second make the difference and as such, crap will happen, Teammate or otherwise.


As for Hulk crashing Magnussen's interview, I've seen the interview crash by Hulk and I don't have an issue with it whatsoever. All he said was once again you win most unsportsman-like driver of the race, to which Magnussen replied, suck my balls. Just because someone calls you out doesn't mean you get a free pass to be vulgar towards them.

I really like Magnussen a lot and I find he was a total douche in this entire incident. From the intentional and unnecessary pushing of Hulk off the track to the vulgar retort, Magnussen was in the wrong. Time and place is a poor argument here for me. Hulk had every right to call Magnussen out because he wasn't making anything up or over-embellishing on anything. Just expressing displeasure.

I don't think for a second that if someone pushed you off the track in that manner, you'd let it go.
I know I wouldn't and I'd probably not be as gentlemanly as Hulk was. While I'm more passive the way Hulk was here, If he told someone like my brother to suck his balls he'd likely knock him out. And I don't mean stagger him, I mean laid out for a couple minutes for being such a disrespectful little turd.

Well, I think Hulk was just as disrespectful by saying what he did in KM's interview. He lost the moral high ground right there. I don't think violence is the answer, tbh.

How is voicing your opinion disrespectful? As far as I recall calling a spade a spade isn't disrespectful, it's the truth.
I also don't feel like violence is the answer but sometimes a good punch in the mouth teaches more in an instant that a lifetime of being spoken to. That's a harsh fact of life and unfortunately some people need to be taught things a little differently when it seems the conventional and civilized ways don't accomplish the goal. Better that than a hot headed retaliatory moment on track if they have another close incident.

Hulk wasn't just voicing an opinion, come on. He was very sarcastic and insulted KM during KM's interview. That is disrespectful. Frankly, if he can't take it he shouldn't dish it


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:21 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Well, I think Hulk was just as disrespectful by saying what he did in KM's interview. He lost the moral high ground right there. I don't think violence is the answer, tbh.

How is voicing your opinion disrespectful? As far as I recall calling a spade a spade isn't disrespectful, it's the truth.

Crashing someone's domestic interview to voice that opinion is very disrespectful. Even if it's true (and I'm not sure it is) it shows no respect for Magnussen or his fans to force him into an interaction like that when he's unprepared and in front of his home viewers.

I don't agree that voicing the truth cannot be disrespectful even beyond that, BTW.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:36 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
MAX needs to understand he is not playing videogames.
Some of his driving screams "inexperience"(Junior series are there to learn) and overconfidence.

He went 3 wide in Spain and paid the price.
He clipped VET front wing in Canada.
Yesterday HAM, who stayed in the middle of the track to avoid mayhem from both the bulls, lost 2 places. You can not trust those 2 guys at the start. They really believe their own hype.
In Baku(or Silverstone?) he escaped another first lap crash.
VET race at Silverstone could have ended too with their "fight" if not for the skills of the German.

Marko and Mateschitz plan is to make him the youngest WDC ever, but I am afraid it is not going to happen as along as he has a competitive and mature teammate.

The irony is that LeClerc is more likely to dominate the field because he took the proper steps(like Hamilton) and didn't rush things because he or his entourage was aiming for youngest ever records.

Interesting what you think of the 2 Red Bull drivers on the starts and let's not forget Ricciardo's war cry before the race that they were not going to take any prisoners which is basically telling the Mercedes and Ferrari drivers that you have more to lose so don't mess with us otherwise it might not end well too well for you.

Also in reference to what's been said about deliberately shoving drivers off the track, I remember the message given from Horner to Ricciardo when Hamilton was bearing down on his third place in the closing laps telling him to be prepared to get his elbows out, which means if needs be shove Hamilton off the track.

Generally speaking it's quite an aggressive message that Red Bull give to their drivers so I guess they can't really castigate either of them if they happen to crash into one another especially if it involves their golden child I guess, meanwhile other teams get really peeved off when teammates crash into one another.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:41 pm 
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j man wrote:
ALESI wrote:
FIA has different standards for different drivers and different championship positions. Everyone knows this!

Indeed. This is my biggest gripe with how the stewarding is conducted at the moment. To me the most unsavoury aspect of the Vettel incident in Baku was hearing that the effect on the championship standings was taken into consideration when deciding the punishment. That I find atrocious.

It's not a new thing either. We saw it back in 2007 with Spygate, where McLaren and both of their drivers should have been excluded from the championship (though I still believe that they effectively were and that we were served up a staged façade of a title fight that year).

They didn't take that into account when Hamilton was being continuously penalised in 2008, but then again Mosley wasn't the biggest fan of McLaren at the time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:43 pm 
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Knuppel1983 wrote:
Look at Formula E.
Way more crashes, but far less penalties. And it's good fun to watch. Buemi gets hit in the last race, as a result has a loose part, and gets the meatbal flag. Which means his direct competitor wins the championship. No fuss, just correctly applied rules.

You know if you like that sort of thing there is banger racing as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Hang on a sec, if Ricciardo wasn't there Max makes the corner EASY. The issue between Max and Bottas was due to both of them being caught out by the Ferrari's slower trek through turn 1. Max was on the outside and closed up on Kimi ultra-quick and it caused a bit of a chain reaction starting with Max first who purposely veered wide to avoid ramming into Raikkonen's rear and then Bottas found himself closing up about as fast and with nowhere to go his car drifted on Max. The difference is Max was quick to react and pulled himself off-track to avoid the contact which allowed Ricciardo to edge slightly ahead, but on the outside line rather than the prime line. And While Ricciardo had no fault in the contact, Max did what EVERY driver is supposed to do which is keep from losing positions. He was mildly faster than was ideal to hold the inside line but with everything that happened in under 3 seconds I think you have to give some leeway to the guy. He is only human.


Wrong, even Horner admitted to it, there was no chance he was making that corner at all, you might want to check the post race interviews.

You probably could say that if Ricciardo wasn't there then Verstappen makes the corner because he doesn't brake as late, quite honest of Horner saying that hitting Ricciardo's car prevented him from going off the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:14 am 
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pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
ALESI wrote:
FIA has different standards for different drivers and different championship positions. Everyone knows this!

Indeed. This is my biggest gripe with how the stewarding is conducted at the moment. To me the most unsavoury aspect of the Vettel incident in Baku was hearing that the effect on the championship standings was taken into consideration when deciding the punishment. That I find atrocious.

It's not a new thing either. We saw it back in 2007 with Spygate, where McLaren and both of their drivers should have been excluded from the championship (though I still believe that they effectively were and that we were served up a staged façade of a title fight that year).

They didn't take that into account when Hamilton was being continuously penalised in 2008, but then again Mosley wasn't the biggest fan of McLaren at the time.


Actually We did. A very good example of stewarding manipulating the title fight.

2006 as well with Alonso's ridiculous penalty in Monza.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:30 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
j man wrote:
ALESI wrote:
FIA has different standards for different drivers and different championship positions. Everyone knows this!

Indeed. This is my biggest gripe with how the stewarding is conducted at the moment. To me the most unsavoury aspect of the Vettel incident in Baku was hearing that the effect on the championship standings was taken into consideration when deciding the punishment. That I find atrocious.

It's not a new thing either. We saw it back in 2007 with Spygate, where McLaren and both of their drivers should have been excluded from the championship (though I still believe that they effectively were and that we were served up a staged façade of a title fight that year).

They didn't take that into account when Hamilton was being continuously penalised in 2008, but then again Mosley wasn't the biggest fan of McLaren at the time.


Actually We did. A very good example of stewarding manipulating the title fight.

2006 as well with Alonso's ridiculous penalty in Monza.

Well I meant they didn't give Hamilton any leeway but yes it was still manipulation just used in a different way.

With Alonso in 2006, let's not also forget the banning of the front mass damper system on Alonso's car when he looked set to walk the title race.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:26 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Look at Formula E.
Way more crashes, but far less penalties. And it's good fun to watch. Buemi gets hit in the last race, as a result has a loose part, and gets the meatbal flag. Which means his direct competitor wins the championship. No fuss, just correctly applied rules.

You know if you like that sort of thing there is banger racing as well.

There are too many crashes in Formula E, I completely agree. But that's beside the point: the point is that in Formula E, the rules are applied consistently and impartially. Championship leaders get disqualified for the same stuff as the plebs, and they get the same penalties if they do something stupid. F1 could learn from that.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:30 am 
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All Motorsport authorities are like this. It's entertainment first, sport second.

Max likely got done as an accumulation of dumbass moves, that are not quite enough to justify a punishment on their own. The one in the race annoyed me as a Ric fan, but probably didn't deserve the punishment in isolation.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:42 am 
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Maybe someone has mentioned it, so forgive me for repeating it if they did.

I think that one of the major reasons, though there are many possibilities, that we have discrepancies/inconsistancies in Stewarding is that F1 does not have a set Stewards crew, instead it shifts people every race. In doing so, you are open to different interpretations for both actions and penalties. I understand that is done to create a fairness or so that no one team/country feels disadvantaged by the officiating crew, but it does lead to different styles and "solutions".

I would think that the FIA could create 2-3 TRAINED Stewarding teams and rotate them as needed. They could even have the teams nominate people to be considered, thereby making the feel that they are involved and that they have a say. At the end of a year, the stewards/crews could be evaluated for extension, or replacement... and then again use the off-season to further train the teams, whatever their make-up. Do not most major sports have professional and trained officials... Soccer leagues, NFL, MLB, NBA??? There is obviously a reason that they do so.

There may be perfectly good reasons why this would not work and I am sure that some of you will let me know what they are! However, to me it would appear to be at least a partial solution?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:03 am 
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First off, I abhor and condemn contact between cars. That is not racing.

But I come from a previous generation where drivers died, and to see fans nit-picking minute details makes me shake my head. Yes, the rules are not applied consistently. Guess what, they never have been nor do I expect any change in the future. There is big money at play here, and when so much is at stake, some people in certain positions are treated like royalty in the hope their perceptions may be swayed. Reference Sepp Blatter and FIFA. Or Max Mosley and the FIA electoral process. And Formula One is not a demonstration of racing at the supreme level, it is first and foremost entertainment. I don't like corruption, I wish it never existed. But as long as big money is involved, no matter what the environment, there are people willing to buy favors and people willing to turn their heads.

I have enough respect for the people administering the rules not to accuse them of such tardy behavior, but they are handed a rule book make out of boiled pasta, do not do this job full time, and are under pressure not to gherkin certain people off. It is a formula for inconsistency and guess what, this is the result.

It is not a case of double standards, but rather a situation where fair and equal application of the rules is almost impossible.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:41 am 
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As much as one would want to analyse each incident on its own merit, that is not the case. In fact even rules are designed in a way we take into consideration the prior actions.

10 seconds TIME PENALTY (its not stop go) is stewards going very easy on Max. I am sure the past incidents played part in the minds of officials but they have still gone easy.

The argument that it wasnt malicious is irrelevant in my book when it comes to Max. I really liked the kid which we all saw win his first race with RBR. But what I have seen since then isnt great on track behaviour.
And if you see his press comments for last 2 races, it showed that he does not care or think about what he is doing on the track. Also he gets lot of affirmation from the certain section of the press for what is reckless driving.

This incident was on the cards. It was like a ticking time-bomb. Lot of people saw it coming and I it finally happened. There was no chance in hell he was ever going to make that corner at those speeds. Lockup was not unfortunate incident, it happened because of his mistake and brain fade. He carried too much speed into that corner. And the whole argument is "IF DAN WASNT THERE, he would have made it" is BS. Forget about his own Boss confirming he wouldn't have, but you cannot, i repeat cannot discount other cars on the track around you ever!
And he got punished for it, justly and in fact I say he got a very mild penalty.

I hope RedBull has good sports psychologists on the payroll. And if not, hire one for Max. He needs to understand there is difference between driving aggressively and taking undue risks that affects not only him but others around him including his own team. I fear that if he continues like this, its only a matter of time we get bigger incident.


And as someone already pointed out, this is not similar to Bottas (though I think he deserved some punishment for taking out kimi and max, but we know 1st corner incidents are usually ignored), this is not similar to Vettel (who got much severe punishment and has received official penalty points, probation as well as warning from FIA ). And it does not matter in the end. Max needs counselling and I hope the people around him see this and points him out.

Being YES MEN around a young driver like Max is playing with fire.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:43 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
As much as one would want to analyse each incident on its own merit, that is not the case. In fact even rules are designed in a way we take into consideration the prior actions.

10 seconds TIME PENALTY (its not stop go) is stewards going very easy on Max. I am sure the past incidents played part in the minds of officials but they have still gone easy.

The argument that it wasnt malicious is irrelevant in my book when it comes to Max. I really liked the kid which we all saw win his first race with RBR. But what I have seen since then isnt great on track behaviour.
And if you see his press comments for last 2 races, it showed that he does not care or think about what he is doing on the track. Also he gets lot of affirmation from the certain section of the press for what is reckless driving.

This incident was on the cards. It was like a ticking time-bomb. Lot of people saw it coming and I it finally happened. There was no chance in hell he was ever going to make that corner at those speeds. Lockup was not unfortunate incident, it happened because of his mistake and brain fade. He carried too much speed into that corner. And the whole argument is "IF DAN WASNT THERE, he would have made it" is BS. Forget about his own Boss confirming he wouldn't have, but you cannot, i repeat cannot discount other cars on the track around you ever!
And he got punished for it, justly and in fact I say he got a very mild penalty.

I hope RedBull has good sports psychologists on the payroll. And if not, hire one for Max. He needs to understand there is difference between driving aggressively and taking undue risks that affects not only him but others around him including his own team. I fear that if he continues like this, its only a matter of time we get bigger incident.


And as someone already pointed out, this is not similar to Bottas (though I think he deserved some punishment for taking out kimi and max, but we know 1st corner incidents are usually ignored), this is not similar to Vettel (who got much severe punishment and has received official penalty points, probation as well as warning from FIA ). And it does not matter in the end. Max needs counselling and I hope the people around him see this and points him out.

Being YES MEN around a young driver like Max is playing with fire.


I don't get the timing of it though. Max may be no angel, but when do we tend to see incidents between teammates punished like this?

Generally the team have already taken their hit, they won't allow their driver to end their other driver's race, and the stewards don't need to step in. I like that approach to be honest.


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