planetf1.com

It is currently Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:49 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 5073
Fiki wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Fiki wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
I've never liked the 'forcing another driver off the track' part of F1. I don't think it should be acceptable. They are supposed to race on the track - that's what it is there for.

They could automate things to some extent. The outer edge of the white line could be the visual indicator of the outer limit of the track, but they could have a buried cable which was detected by a sensor (and a backup in case it failed) in the centre of each car.
The sensor would need to be capable of sensing the distance to the cable accurately from up to two car's widths. It needs to be a system that allows the stewards to decide very quickly if a punishment needs to be applied.

They can work out a punishment system based on staying within the track limits when driving, and rules for leaving a car's width when a car is overlapping you.

They would also have to have to have realistic rules regarding what is considered an overlap - ie. if the driver in front has no way of telling there is an overlap, or the overlap has occurred so suddenly that he has no realistic option to respond. That is an already existing problem.

Yes the racing and the lap times would be a lot slower, but the racing would probably be better in that it would be fairer, there would be more braking distance and acceleration distance and drivers could be in a better position coming out of a corner to complete an overtake. It would also mean combinations of corners could be used as an overtaking opportunity in more places, in more circuits.
They might even be able to get rid of DRS.

It would take a short while to get used to, but IMO would be better for the sport in the long run.

Better still - bring back gravel traps!

They worked very well in discouraging drivers from bad driving.

Get it wrong (when either overtaking or defending), the driver was likely to end his race - or suffer a severe penalty for ending another drivers' race :) .
But gravel traps don't punish the one who is pushing another driver off the track. It never works without proper stewarding, which never properly works without race control reporting each and every transgression, and without the marshal posts reporting them to race control.

I can't believe Knuppel thinks F1 is boring. It isn't!


I guess Formula E is an example of using the track to race on. Monaco is another, but the difference is, if the lead driver is required to allow an overtaking driver room to stay on the track (and there isn't a physical barrier carrying a high risk), then it wouldn't be so impossible to overtake.
The circuits would need to be altered (widened in some places) for the 'race on the track' rules to work well.
Not necessarily; the black-and-white flag or simply the black flag can and should be used more. The Schumacher tactic of deliberately misinterpreting a rule, then abuse it, and then asking for "clarification" when challenged, should have been nipped in the bud.

That's the Briatore tactic, you must be confusing it!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:20 am
Posts: 84
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
drivers hating each others guts! Not this politically correct blabla, where every move has to be analyzed and penalized.


I suggest you start watching boxing instead of F1.

Knuppel1983 wrote:
Funny reading comments about Verstappen making it impossible to overtake. You can't seriously put this on him. Overtaking was dead before he entered F1.


Yeah, I can't remember seeing a single overtake in F1 until Verstappen showed up . . .

I'm saying overtaking was (before Max entered F1), and is, gone. You just read it the way you want.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:20 am
Posts: 84
mikeyg123 wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He's gone over the mark occasionally. - And it is very occasional - but he's done little I haven't seen from other drivers. It gets ignored generally when other drivers do it. Verstappen certainly seems to be held to a higher standard than any other driver.

This. Everything gets magnified 10-fold because of his age. He's an easy target.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Belgium
Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Not necessarily; the black-and-white flag or simply the black flag can and should be used more. The Schumacher tactic of deliberately misinterpreting a rule, then abuse it, and then asking for "clarification" when challenged, should have been nipped in the bud.

That's the Briatore tactic, you must be confusing it!
Briatore? Do you remember cases of him asking for "clarification" before hiring Schumacher?

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 879
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No he isn't he just oversteps the mark more than the other top drivers, now if we are comparing with other drivers further down the grid then fair enough but these drivers by and large get ignored apart from Torpedo. :)


I think most of the top guys do dodgy things as well. Just in the last race Bottas was all to happy to crash into Verstappen coming out of turn 1.

Look how much Verstappen was vilified for his mistake in the last race. He's never really made a major error lie that before but from the way people speak you'd think he does it all the time.


This is the misconception, other drivers avoiding contact makes this possible.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No he isn't he just oversteps the mark more than the other top drivers, now if we are comparing with other drivers further down the grid then fair enough but these drivers by and large get ignored apart from Torpedo. :)


I think most of the top guys do dodgy things as well. Just in the last race Bottas was all to happy to crash into Verstappen coming out of turn 1.

Look how much Verstappen was vilified for his mistake in the last race. He's never really made a major error lie that before but from the way people speak you'd think he does it all the time.


This is the misconception, other drivers avoiding contact makes this possible.


Which is the misconception?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 879
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No he isn't he just oversteps the mark more than the other top drivers, now if we are comparing with other drivers further down the grid then fair enough but these drivers by and large get ignored apart from Torpedo. :)


I think most of the top guys do dodgy things as well. Just in the last race Bottas was all to happy to crash into Verstappen coming out of turn 1.

Look how much Verstappen was vilified for his mistake in the last race. He's never really made a major error lie that before but from the way people speak you'd think he does it all the time.


This is the misconception, other drivers avoiding contact makes this possible.


Which is the misconception?


The part of the major error, it was bound to happen when the other driver had nowhere to go.

I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:20 am
Posts: 84
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Belgium
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.

This being a thread on FIA double standards, I have to admit I failed (and still fail) to understand why Vettel didn't get a penalty. A failed overtake attempt should not end up succeeding, because the opponent elects to continue racing, rather than have an accident.
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so. But Vettel still made a serious mistake there, and it went unnoticed, or somebody turned a blind eye.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2102
We all remember when Webber and Alonso went side by side at Spa at very high speed, and the message that came out of that was that those two guys trusted each other and that meant they could race to the limit.

Now, no one is going to try that on Max are they? So how is that his problem? Gaining a rep as 'dangerous' can work in your favour.

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This wasn't a case of being run off the track but of another car dive bombing on the inside and the car on the outside having to take avoiding action, in this case I would call it normal racing but still it's Verstappen's normal way of risking contact when defending his position.
No, Pokerman, you're wrong. I just watched the overtake attempt by Hamilton again and it was he who tried to overtake Verstappen, who defended the inside. The attempt came at the restart after a SC period, with Hamilton behind.
No dive bombing, just a failed attempt to overtake around the outside. Which means that the risk he was talking about refers to the difference between attacking a team-mate and a competitor from another team. Or in other words, knowing there is very little to keep a competitor from running you off the track, the way they saw you do to your ex-team-mate...

So you see, Knuppel, I can defend Max when there are grounds for doing so, just as I did when Schumacher kept it sporting once in a while. :D

I said that Verstappen was defending his position so how I was wrong, the point I was making with Verstappen is that if you put your car in danger around him don't be surprised if it gets hit.
You said he was dive bombing. He didn't. Hamilton couldn't make his overtake attempt stick, because it was too optimistic without DRS. Rather than risk being run off the track, he thought better of it. Why Hamilton made that radio call is a bit puzzling, except if you see it as an attempt to discredit a perfectly fine defence.

How was Hamilton at risk of being run off the track when he turned suddenly to the left to avoid contact with Verstappen and still remained on the track, this was more to do with corner entry rather than corner exit.
Pokerman, it wasn't a case of potentially being run off the road, you misrepresented what Max did in your initial post, and you still seem to misunderstand what really happened. Max didn't divebomb.

And my remark was about Hamilton saying something about Max that was uncalled for. I readily admit Hamilton is one of my least favourite drivers, but I only criticise his radio call because he had no grounds to make it in the first place.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:20 pm
Posts: 21
Knuppel1983 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He's gone over the mark occasionally. - And it is very occasional - but he's done little I haven't seen from other drivers. It gets ignored generally when other drivers do it. Verstappen certainly seems to be held to a higher standard than any other driver.

This. Everything gets magnified 10-fold because of his age. He's an easy target.


Actually, it's the other way around. He gets away with most of the nefarious stuff because of his age. Also, his whole hype is due to his age. If he'd been twenty when he entered F1, nobody would have blinked an eye at what was in reality a rather average first season.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:20 pm
Posts: 21
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.


No, Verstappen left the track to keep his position, thus gaining an advantage. And wasn't penalised for it. Apparently the stewards didn't notice he moved under breaking either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Belgium
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.


No, Verstappen left the track to keep his position, thus gaining an advantage. And wasn't penalised for it. Apparently the stewards didn't notice he moved under breaking either.
You didn't notice that Vettel left the track also? He was fully up on the kerbs, meaning he was no longer on the track, and without reason.

I can't confirm nor deny that Verstappen moved in the braking area, though it doesn't look like it. He did move to the centre of the track, forcing Vettel to choose on which side to try his pass. But as far as I'm aware, the "moving under braking rule", was never a rule as such and the "Verstappen rule" was cancelled earlier this year.

I'm critical of Verstappen myself, but it is useless to accuse a driver of something he didn't do.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:25 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Max is rough sometimes, but who cares. It's fun to watch someone actually defend against a Ferrari or trying an overtake on a Merc. If it isn't fair the stewards are standing by to slay him.


He's gone over the mark occasionally. - And it is very occasional - but he's done little I haven't seen from other drivers. It gets ignored generally when other drivers do it. Verstappen certainly seems to be held to a higher standard than any other driver.

This. Everything gets magnified 10-fold because of his age. He's an easy target.


Actually, it's the other way around. He gets away with most of the nefarious stuff because of his age. Also, his whole hype is due to his age. If he'd been twenty when he entered F1, nobody would have blinked an eye at what was in reality a rather average first season.


Part of what made his debut season so impressive was his lack of experience. Even not accounting for that it was a very strong season for a rookie. Few on the grid have had better.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2102
I tell you something that springs to mind when we talk about double standards from the FIA, Mika setting a fast lap under yellows and getting away with it because he raised his finger... do we think Romain Grosjean would get away with that?

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 879
Fiki wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.

This being a thread on FIA double standards, I have to admit I failed (and still fail) to understand why Vettel didn't get a penalty. A failed overtake attempt should not end up succeeding, because the opponent elects to continue racing, rather than have an accident.
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so. But Vettel still made a serious mistake there, and it went unnoticed, or somebody turned a blind eye.


You must have watched a different race.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 5073
ALESI wrote:
I tell you something that springs to mind when we talk about double standards from the FIA, Mika setting a fast lap under yellows and getting away with it because he raised his finger... do we think Romain Grosjean would get away with that?

Which race was that?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
Siao7 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I tell you something that springs to mind when we talk about double standards from the FIA, Mika setting a fast lap under yellows and getting away with it because he raised his finger... do we think Romain Grosjean would get away with that?

Which race was that?


It happened often in quali and practice but times have changed.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
Rockie wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.

This being a thread on FIA double standards, I have to admit I failed (and still fail) to understand why Vettel didn't get a penalty. A failed overtake attempt should not end up succeeding, because the opponent elects to continue racing, rather than have an accident.
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so. But Vettel still made a serious mistake there, and it went unnoticed, or somebody turned a blind eye.


You must have watched a different race.


Are you sure you remember the right race? What Fiki said absolutely happened. You can watch it here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmcGdF3KhPE

13-15 seconds in shows Verstappen being run off the track by Vettel. At 16 seconds it shows Vettel has run Verstappen so far off he has left the track himself.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 21748
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.


No, Verstappen left the track to keep his position, thus gaining an advantage. And wasn't penalised for it. Apparently the stewards didn't notice he moved under breaking either.

They've kicked that rule into touch to facilitate Verstappen.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 17th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 21748
Siao7 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I tell you something that springs to mind when we talk about double standards from the FIA, Mika setting a fast lap under yellows and getting away with it because he raised his finger... do we think Romain Grosjean would get away with that?

Which race was that?

I believe we are going back some 20 years for that one, I would think that has no bearing on what happens nowadays?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 17th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2102
No but it shows that the FIA has treated different drivers differently for a long time doesn't it. Same goes for Schumi and his startline weaving... it's nothing new, but it's quite shocking that the stewards are even stating in their reports that they take the championship into account when making decisions. I mean W.T.F!

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2372
Fiki wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.
It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.
This being a thread on FIA double standards, I have to admit I failed (and still fail) to understand why Vettel didn't get a penalty. A failed overtake attempt should not end up succeeding, because the opponent elects to continue racing, rather than have an accident.
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so. But Vettel still made a serious mistake there, and it went unnoticed, or somebody turned a blind eye.
I suggest that it was the blind eye option, if anything. I'd speculate that, as Verstappen more-or-less returned the favour in retaining / regaining the position, the stewards may have concluded that sanctioning the drivers would be pointless. I understand that this is contrary to your argument; I'm simply guessing at the stewards' thoughts at the time.

_________________
Where I'm going, I don't need roads


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
pokerman wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.


No, Verstappen left the track to keep his position, thus gaining an advantage. And wasn't penalised for it. Apparently the stewards didn't notice he moved under breaking either.

They've kicked that rule into touch to facilitate Verstappen.


Or because it was a ridiculous knee jerk rule to begin with.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 5073
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
I tell you something that springs to mind when we talk about double standards from the FIA, Mika setting a fast lap under yellows and getting away with it because he raised his finger... do we think Romain Grosjean would get away with that?

Which race was that?


It happened often in quali and practice but times have changed.


I know, I was talking about raising his finger and getting away with it. I can't remember that. Anyway


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Belgium
tootsie323 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.
It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.
This being a thread on FIA double standards, I have to admit I failed (and still fail) to understand why Vettel didn't get a penalty. A failed overtake attempt should not end up succeeding, because the opponent elects to continue racing, rather than have an accident.
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so. But Vettel still made a serious mistake there, and it went unnoticed, or somebody turned a blind eye.
I suggest that it was the blind eye option, if anything. I'd speculate that, as Verstappen more-or-less returned the favour in retaining / regaining the position, the stewards may have concluded that sanctioning the drivers would be pointless. I understand that this is contrary to your argument; I'm simply guessing at the stewards' thoughts at the time.
It is worrying though; I would suggest the least they could do is give both a warning for running a competitor off the track. By not doing so, they give the impression it is fine to run a competitor off the track, and fine to retaliate. Which is the wrong message to send to younger racers watching F1.
I think the inconsistency is the basis of the problem of retaliation - and I'm not so sure I should have written
Quote:
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so.

I can see that if a driver suspects the stewards will let the driver who ran you off the track go, he may feel it is better to put him in his place on track, rather than file a complaint. But two wrongs don't make a right.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 21748
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.


No, Verstappen left the track to keep his position, thus gaining an advantage. And wasn't penalised for it. Apparently the stewards didn't notice he moved under breaking either.

They've kicked that rule into touch to facilitate Verstappen.


Or because it was a ridiculous knee jerk rule to begin with.

Was it not a rule that the drivers themselves proposed years ago because they considered such driving to be highly dangerous?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 17th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
I don't believe so. It was brought in to counter their complaints toward the end of last year. The only driver to fall foul of it was possibly the biggest complainer out there.

Verstappen has moved in the braking zone when defending rarely. Which is not really on. Most of the other drivers are happy to deliberately force each other off the track anytime someone tries to overtake them. That's not on either.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 21748
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't believe so. It was brought in to counter their complaints toward the end of last year. The only driver to fall foul of it was possibly the biggest complainer out there.

Verstappen has moved in the braking zone when defending rarely. Which is not really on. Most of the other drivers are happy to deliberately force each other off the track anytime someone tries to overtake them. That's not on either.

Was not Perez penalised for this in Canada 2014 after Massa hit him and then careered into the tyre barrier at high speed?

This rule as been around for some years I believe at the request of the drivers although it probably needed an accident to happen before the transgressor got penalised.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 17th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't believe so. It was brought in to counter their complaints toward the end of last year. The only driver to fall foul of it was possibly the biggest complainer out there.

Verstappen has moved in the braking zone when defending rarely. Which is not really on. Most of the other drivers are happy to deliberately force each other off the track anytime someone tries to overtake them. That's not on either.

Was not Perez penalised for this in Canada 2014 after Massa hit him and then careered into the tyre barrier at high speed?

This rule as been around for some years I believe at the request of the drivers although it probably needed an accident to happen before the transgressor got penalised.
It wasn't a rule as such, but an agreement among F1 drivers. Perhaps we could call it part of "racing etiquette", because that too is undocumented. Last year, because Verstappen seemed very happy to continue to cause problems defending under braking, the FIA made it a rule, which got thrown out again this year (I believe). Both points of view are understandable, I find.

I like the point you make about Perez. The official verdict was: " Car 11 changed his racing line which caused the impact with car 19 in Turn 1." (Source: Event and Timing Information, FIA) In effect, they were indeed saying he moved under braking, and moved so far the other driver was unable to give in.

My guess is that the "Verstappen rule" was thrown out, because there's a difference between moving under braking, and causing an accident. Which in turn means that only if enough drivers refuse to give in to extremely late defence (i.e. accept an accident), will the FIA reconsider. No wonder some drivers consider F1 so safe they don't need additional safety features...

As we can see in the World Athletics coverage, leaving one's racing line isn't only an item in motor racing.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 21748
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't believe so. It was brought in to counter their complaints toward the end of last year. The only driver to fall foul of it was possibly the biggest complainer out there.

Verstappen has moved in the braking zone when defending rarely. Which is not really on. Most of the other drivers are happy to deliberately force each other off the track anytime someone tries to overtake them. That's not on either.

Was not Perez penalised for this in Canada 2014 after Massa hit him and then careered into the tyre barrier at high speed?

This rule as been around for some years I believe at the request of the drivers although it probably needed an accident to happen before the transgressor got penalised.
It wasn't a rule as such, but an agreement among F1 drivers. Perhaps we could call it part of "racing etiquette", because that too is undocumented. Last year, because Verstappen seemed very happy to continue to cause problems defending under braking, the FIA made it a rule, which got thrown out again this year (I believe). Both points of view are understandable, I find.

I like the point you make about Perez. The official verdict was: " Car 11 changed his racing line which caused the impact with car 19 in Turn 1." (Source: Event and Timing Information, FIA) In effect, they were indeed saying he moved under braking, and moved so far the other driver was unable to give in.

My guess is that the "Verstappen rule" was thrown out, because there's a difference between moving under braking, and causing an accident. Which in turn means that only if enough drivers refuse to give in to extremely late defence (i.e. accept an accident), will the FIA reconsider. No wonder some drivers consider F1 so safe they don't need additional safety features...

As we can see in the World Athletics coverage, leaving one's racing line isn't only an item in motor racing.

Indeed what it needs basically is for someone to plough into Verstappen for him to be penalised and he knows that title contenders will do anything to avoid that.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 17th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't believe so. It was brought in to counter their complaints toward the end of last year. The only driver to fall foul of it was possibly the biggest complainer out there.

Verstappen has moved in the braking zone when defending rarely. Which is not really on. Most of the other drivers are happy to deliberately force each other off the track anytime someone tries to overtake them. That's not on either.

Was not Perez penalised for this in Canada 2014 after Massa hit him and then careered into the tyre barrier at high speed?

This rule as been around for some years I believe at the request of the drivers although it probably needed an accident to happen before the transgressor got penalised.


Perez's situation is a little more nuanced. His brakes were on the way out and he was having to brake very early. Thus moving directly in front of someone and then braking hard when they would have not expected it wasn't very smart. The penalty wasn't for moving in the braking zone. He clearly wasn't in Massa's.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Belgium
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't believe so. It was brought in to counter their complaints toward the end of last year. The only driver to fall foul of it was possibly the biggest complainer out there.

Verstappen has moved in the braking zone when defending rarely. Which is not really on. Most of the other drivers are happy to deliberately force each other off the track anytime someone tries to overtake them. That's not on either.

Was not Perez penalised for this in Canada 2014 after Massa hit him and then careered into the tyre barrier at high speed?

This rule as been around for some years I believe at the request of the drivers although it probably needed an accident to happen before the transgressor got penalised.
It wasn't a rule as such, but an agreement among F1 drivers. Perhaps we could call it part of "racing etiquette", because that too is undocumented. Last year, because Verstappen seemed very happy to continue to cause problems defending under braking, the FIA made it a rule, which got thrown out again this year (I believe). Both points of view are understandable, I find.

I like the point you make about Perez. The official verdict was: " Car 11 changed his racing line which caused the impact with car 19 in Turn 1." (Source: Event and Timing Information, FIA) In effect, they were indeed saying he moved under braking, and moved so far the other driver was unable to give in.

My guess is that the "Verstappen rule" was thrown out, because there's a difference between moving under braking, and causing an accident. Which in turn means that only if enough drivers refuse to give in to extremely late defence (i.e. accept an accident), will the FIA reconsider. No wonder some drivers consider F1 so safe they don't need additional safety features...

As we can see in the World Athletics coverage, leaving one's racing line isn't only an item in motor racing.

Indeed what it needs basically is for someone to plough into Verstappen for him to be penalised and he knows that title contenders will do anything to avoid that.
I wouldn't go quite as far as that! :lol: No, I'm convinced that if Mr Whiting were to say to all drivers what the rules mean, and how they will be enforced starting now, they would all understand. And give a race ban to someone who asks for "clarification"! ;)

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 879
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.

It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.

This being a thread on FIA double standards, I have to admit I failed (and still fail) to understand why Vettel didn't get a penalty. A failed overtake attempt should not end up succeeding, because the opponent elects to continue racing, rather than have an accident.
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so. But Vettel still made a serious mistake there, and it went unnoticed, or somebody turned a blind eye.


You must have watched a different race.


Are you sure you remember the right race? What Fiki said absolutely happened. You can watch it here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmcGdF3KhPE

13-15 seconds in shows Verstappen being run off the track by Vettel. At 16 seconds it shows Vettel has run Verstappen so far off he has left the track himself.


Where you quoted he wasn't four wheels of the track, I wonder how Max thought he was going to make the corner.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:08 pm
Posts: 1493
Fiki wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Knuppel1983 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
I bet what he did with Vettel at Silverstone a driver like Maldonaldo would have turned in and not let him run him wide.
It was Vettel who ran Verstappen wide first.
This being a thread on FIA double standards, I have to admit I failed (and still fail) to understand why Vettel didn't get a penalty. A failed overtake attempt should not end up succeeding, because the opponent elects to continue racing, rather than have an accident.
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so. But Vettel still made a serious mistake there, and it went unnoticed, or somebody turned a blind eye.
I suggest that it was the blind eye option, if anything. I'd speculate that, as Verstappen more-or-less returned the favour in retaining / regaining the position, the stewards may have concluded that sanctioning the drivers would be pointless. I understand that this is contrary to your argument; I'm simply guessing at the stewards' thoughts at the time.
It is worrying though; I would suggest the least they could do is give both a warning for running a competitor off the track. By not doing so, they give the impression it is fine to run a competitor off the track, and fine to retaliate. Which is the wrong message to send to younger racers watching F1.
I think the inconsistency is the basis of the problem of retaliation - and I'm not so sure I should have written
Quote:
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so.

I can see that if a driver suspects the stewards will let the driver who ran you off the track go, he may feel it is better to put him in his place on track, rather than file a complaint. But two wrongs don't make a right.


BIB
I was fun kart racing with a group of friends on a fairly big and fast circuit earlier this year, and one was trying to pass me round the outside on a corner, and from watching F1, there was a bit of my brain saying it was OK to run him wide onto the grass (which carried a low risk he would get injured). I don't think there is much skill involved in running someone off the track.

The FIA need to have the power to write the rules of F1, from the point of view of making F1 as fair and exciting as practical. They also need the professional skill required to word the rules properly and enforce them fairly. I think they are weak in all those aspects of what they should be doing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
Rockie wrote:

Where you quoted he wasn't four wheels of the track, I wonder how Max thought he was going to make the corner.


Yes he was. the curb is not the track. Verstappen would've had no problem staying on the track if Vettel hadn't shoved him off. He broke later and came in from a wider angle than Vettel. Vettel nearly stayed on himself so Verstappen shouldn't have had a problem.
If Verstappen is so bad then why the need to clutch at straws like this and defend such a bad example.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:15 am
Posts: 769
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Where you quoted he wasn't four wheels of the track, I wonder how Max thought he was going to make the corner.


Yes he was. the curb is not the track. Verstappen would've had no problem staying on the track if Vettel hadn't shoved him off. He broke later and came in from a wider angle than Vettel. Vettel nearly stayed on himself so Verstappen shouldn't have had a problem.
If Verstappen is so bad then why the need to clutch at straws like this and defend such a bad example.

If the curb is not the track, then all drivers drive off track lots of the time on every single lap of every single race! :lol: I would have thought that the kerb is part of the track or else surely the drivers would get punished for track limits in qualifying more often.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Belgium
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Fiki wrote:
This being a thread on FIA double standards, I have to admit I failed (and still fail) to understand why Vettel didn't get a penalty. A failed overtake attempt should not end up succeeding, because the opponent elects to continue racing, rather than have an accident.
I know Max turned the tables on him, and rightly so. But Vettel still made a serious mistake there, and it went unnoticed, or somebody turned a blind eye.


You must have watched a different race.


Are you sure you remember the right race? What Fiki said absolutely happened. You can watch it here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmcGdF3KhPE

13-15 seconds in shows Verstappen being run off the track by Vettel. At 16 seconds it shows Vettel has run Verstappen so far off he has left the track himself.


Where you quoted he wasn't four wheels of the track, I wonder how Max thought he was going to make the corner.
Rockie, I have to say I'm not sure I can follow what you are talking about here. What Mikey wrote, between seconds 13 to 15 that clip DOES show Vettel leaving the track with all four wheels. The kerbs don't start on the inside of the white line, they are on the outside. Always.

If you're not convinced, look at the helicopter shots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmrVkQbVdrA
At second 7, he is off the track with all four wheels, and has driven Verstappen off. In fact, he even hits him with his front wheel.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 11445
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:

Where you quoted he wasn't four wheels of the track, I wonder how Max thought he was going to make the corner.


Yes he was. the curb is not the track. Verstappen would've had no problem staying on the track if Vettel hadn't shoved him off. He broke later and came in from a wider angle than Vettel. Vettel nearly stayed on himself so Verstappen shouldn't have had a problem.
If Verstappen is so bad then why the need to clutch at straws like this and defend such a bad example.

If the curb is not the track, then all drivers drive off track lots of the time on every single lap of every single race! :lol: I would have thought that the kerb is part of the track or else surely the drivers would get punished for track limits in qualifying more often.


I agree with you! You would think that! Sadly the rules are rarely enforced. The white line on the inside of the kerb denotes the edge of the track. The kerbs themselves are off the track. Of course it is possible to straddle the kerbs and the track and thus remain perfectly legally on track but if all 4 wheels are on the kerb then you are off the track.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group