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Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine settings
http://forum.planet-f1.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14434
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Author:  Zoue [ Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a mid season rule change

And therein lies one of my major gripes with the FIA

IMO the rules should be set from the start. As teams bring new updates and changes the FIA should deem them legal/illegal according to the rules that have existed from the start of the season. Changing the rules midway through has always been BS

I can understand a mid season change in regulations for safety reasons and even in some cases for sporting reasons (not a tech regulation but dropping the stupid qualifying at the start of last year being a recent example).

For something like this which is completely invisible to the viewer though? It's just pointless and silly really, leave it until next year.

:thumbup:

Author:  F1_Ernie [ Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

From what I am reading Mercedes are going to run the Spa engine at 0.9 litres as it was designed for this purpose.

Author:  RaggedMan [ Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
Its a mid season rule change

And therein lies one of my major gripes with the FIA

IMO the rules should be set from the start. As teams bring new updates and changes the FIA should deem them legal/illegal according to the rules that have existed from the start of the season. Changing the rules midway through has always been BS

Exactly! There have many things (e.g. F-Duct) that are clear violations of existing rules that are allowed to be used through the remainder of the season. But this is what they make a mid-season change for?

Author:  750k2 [ Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

What if this was flipped - oh boy would they come out of the woodwork.
It's not the weight it's the energy from burning the extra combustible.
Just like upping the fuel flow limit.
Either open it all up or all the same either or I don't care.
Personally I say set the basic specs and let the engineers loose.

Author:  Blinky McSquinty [ Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm guessing in part Mercedes wanted to keep what they were doing a secret so as Ferrari would not be able to react, I think you are over reacting to the in season rule change by the FIA.

I think you may be misunderstanding the point. The timing of the rule is not the issue, but the execution is. It's daft to have two teams using the same engine while one has to run it in a lower configuration to the manufacturer according to the rules. There's no logic to that

Then blame the FIA and not Mercedes and like as what's been said maybe the customers declined the option because of budget considerations and it being too early to have another new engine?

I think you are misreading. I've not laid any blame at Mercedes' door, but I've directed it all specifically at the FIA for once again not thinking rules through.


Exactly. The FIA left a huge loophole, and Mercedes said "thank you" and waltzed through it. And Ferrari are unhappy because they never caught on. When you consider that the qualifying difference between Hamilton in his Mercedes and Vettel in his Ferrari was 0.2%, trust me, that little extra oil burn was a factor.

Ross Brawn has always stated that the people who write the regulations must be as bright as the ones who interpret and apply them. Obviously, that is not happening.

In the past, works teams always got the upgrades first, and those improvements trickled down to the customers a few races later. The new regulations are intended to close this disparity, but chalk this one up a a big fail.

Author:  mmi16 [ Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

What is absurd is 'green' engines in F1 burning more oil than my 2 cycle Rotax

Author:  F1_Ernie [ Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm guessing in part Mercedes wanted to keep what they were doing a secret so as Ferrari would not be able to react, I think you are over reacting to the in season rule change by the FIA.

I think you may be misunderstanding the point. The timing of the rule is not the issue, but the execution is. It's daft to have two teams using the same engine while one has to run it in a lower configuration to the manufacturer according to the rules. There's no logic to that

Then blame the FIA and not Mercedes and like as what's been said maybe the customers declined the option because of budget considerations and it being too early to have another new engine?

I think you are misreading. I've not laid any blame at Mercedes' door, but I've directed it all specifically at the FIA for once again not thinking rules through.


Exactly. The FIA left a huge loophole, and Mercedes said "thank you" and waltzed through it. And Ferrari are unhappy because they never caught on. When you consider that the qualifying difference between Hamilton in his Mercedes and Vettel in his Ferrari was 0.2%, trust me, that little extra oil burn was a factor.

Ross Brawn has always stated that the people who write the regulations must be as bright as the ones who interpret and apply them. Obviously, that is not happening.

In the past, works teams always got the upgrades first, and those improvements trickled down to the customers a few races later. The new regulations are intended to close this disparity, but chalk this one up a a big fail.


Mercedes say they was running the new engine at 0.9 at Spa and will continue to run it at 0.9. I guess Ferrari was running there engine at 1.2 in spa. If this is true then no advantage for Mercedes.

Also the difference is less than 0.1seconds.

Author:  lamo [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

It makes no sense Mercedes putting in component 4 of there ICE, TC, MGU-H just 2 races after introducing component 3 if it wasn't to be able to run with extra oil.

https://i.redd.it/ogomkn9cz1jz.png

That is the up to date list, it appears FI and Williams will attempt to do the season with 3 engines - they both did the first 6 races + all practice sessions on one engine. Pretty impressive reliability and it still would have been used in later practice sessions too.

Ferrari have not brought an engine upgrade this race, therefore if any Ferrari customers take a new engine this weekend they will be running the same specification engine as the works Ferrari team but with a oil burn allowance. The same as Mercedes customers and Mercedes themselves if they need a new engine.

Author:  F1_Ernie [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

lamo wrote:
It makes no sense Mercedes putting in component 4 of there ICE, TC, MGU-H just 2 races after introducing component 3 if it wasn't to be able to run with extra oil.

https://i.redd.it/ogomkn9cz1jz.png

That is the up to date list, it appears FI and Williams will attempt to do the season with 3 engines - they both did the first 6 races + all practice sessions on one engine. Pretty impressive reliability and it still would have been used in later practice sessions too.

Ferrari have not brought an engine upgrade this race, therefore if any Ferrari customers take a new engine this weekend they will be running the same specification engine as the works Ferrari team but with a oil burn allowance. The same as Mercedes customers and Mercedes themselves if they need a new engine.


http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de

The aerodynamics offensive of the Red countered Brixworth with the debut of the fourth engine. Intern Spec 3.1. It should have around 10 hp more and longer distances in the Race-Plus mode allow. All the weak points were cleared. Originally the engine was first to debut in Suzuka, then in Monza . And then Mercedes appeared surprisingly in Spa with it.

Mercedes-Benz Motorsport boss Andy Cowell confirmed: "We will apply from Monza and the 0.9 liter limit as for everyone else. The engineWas designed for this purpose. So it was in a Technical Directive of the FIA ​​of July. And so we have always interpreted this rule.

Maybe the upgrades in the new engine Mercedes felt they needed at Spa.

Author:  lamo [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

Yes that is the only logical explanation if its not running the higher oil limit, that they wanted the extra 10 BHP for Spa and Monza and then engine 3 will likely go back in for Singapore.

Author:  kleefton [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

F1_Ernie wrote:



Mercedes say they was running the new engine at 0.9 at Spa and will continue to run it at 0.9. I guess Ferrari was running there engine at 1.2 in spa. If this is true then no advantage for Mercedes.

Also the difference is less than 0.1seconds.


Am I the only one who is confused by this whole thing? So they ran Spa at 0.9, which might explain why Ferrari was so close. But what are they running this weekend? I'm assuming 1.2? And if Ferrari has not brought a new spec at Monza then they are also running 1.2. So it's even stevens then?

Author:  lamo [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:



Mercedes say they was running the new engine at 0.9 at Spa and will continue to run it at 0.9. I guess Ferrari was running there engine at 1.2 in spa. If this is true then no advantage for Mercedes.

Also the difference is less than 0.1seconds.


Am I the only one who is confused by this whole thing? So they ran Spa at 0.9, which might explain why Ferrari was so close. But what are they running this weekend? I'm assuming 1.2? And if Ferrari has not brought a new spec at Monza then they are also running 1.2. So it's even stevens then?


Going by Andy Cowells comments, Mercedes will run this weekend at 0.9 on engine 4. Ferrari will run engine 3 at 1.2

Mercedes engine 4 is designed to run at 0.9 and did so in Spa. Mercedes engine 3, which will be used again will run at 1.2 but it probably won't be used in Monza as that extra 10 BHP in engine 4 will be vital here.

It appears Mercedes only introduced engine 4 for the two highest power races of Monza and Spa and wanted that extra 10 BHP for those two events.

I am cynical of Cowell's comments though...

Author:  kleefton [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

lamo wrote:
kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:



Mercedes say they was running the new engine at 0.9 at Spa and will continue to run it at 0.9. I guess Ferrari was running there engine at 1.2 in spa. If this is true then no advantage for Mercedes.

Also the difference is less than 0.1seconds.


Am I the only one who is confused by this whole thing? So they ran Spa at 0.9, which might explain why Ferrari was so close. But what are they running this weekend? I'm assuming 1.2? And if Ferrari has not brought a new spec at Monza then they are also running 1.2. So it's even stevens then?


Going by Andy Cowells comments, Mercedes will run this weekend at 0.9 on engine 4. Ferrari will run engine 3 at 1.2

Mercedes engine 4 is designed to run at 0.9 and did so in Spa. Mercedes engine 3, which will be used again will run at 1.2 but it probably won't be used in Monza as that extra 10 BHP in engine 4 will be vital here.

It appears Mercedes only introduced engine 4 for the two highest power races of Monza and Spa and wanted that extra 10 BHP for those two events.

I am cynical of Cowell's comments though...


Yeah so we are to believe that merc is going to be nice guys and give up that 10hp advantage at monza? Not a chance id say. I find it odd that they ran spa at 0.9 too.

Author:  F1_Ernie [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

kleefton wrote:
lamo wrote:
kleefton wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:



Mercedes say they was running the new engine at 0.9 at Spa and will continue to run it at 0.9. I guess Ferrari was running there engine at 1.2 in spa. If this is true then no advantage for Mercedes.

Also the difference is less than 0.1seconds.


Am I the only one who is confused by this whole thing? So they ran Spa at 0.9, which might explain why Ferrari was so close. But what are they running this weekend? I'm assuming 1.2? And if Ferrari has not brought a new spec at Monza then they are also running 1.2. So it's even stevens then?


Going by Andy Cowells comments, Mercedes will run this weekend at 0.9 on engine 4. Ferrari will run engine 3 at 1.2

Mercedes engine 4 is designed to run at 0.9 and did so in Spa. Mercedes engine 3, which will be used again will run at 1.2 but it probably won't be used in Monza as that extra 10 BHP in engine 4 will be vital here.

It appears Mercedes only introduced engine 4 for the two highest power races of Monza and Spa and wanted that extra 10 BHP for those two events.

I am cynical of Cowell's comments though...


Yeah so we are to believe that merc is going to be nice guys and give up that 10hp advantage at monza? Not a chance id say. I find it odd that they ran spa at 0.9 too.


Mercedes was getting the 10hp advantage whatever because it was with the upgraded engine 4 which they brought forward from Suzuka to Monza then Spa. I imagine they brought it forward because they wanted the extra 10hp for Spa and Monza.

I have read a number of reports Mercedes ran the engine at 0.9 in Spa so I guess it's correct. Mercedes say they will run engine 4 at 0.9 but I bet it can run at 1.2 and will when really needed to ;)

Author:  moby [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

So... A quali run is 3 laps. How will anyone know if that is 3 laps at .9 or 1and 1/4 laps at, I was about to say 1.2, but ... Anything?

Author:  Lotus49 [ Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

moby wrote:
So... A quali run is 3 laps. How will anyone know if that is 3 laps at .9 or 1and 1/4 laps at, I was about to say 1.2, but ... Anything?


They won't. All the FIA can measure is how much is in the tanks before and after the session then work out the usage. Mercedes and Ferrari can do want they want when they want as long as it doesn't come in over that avg for Ferrari anyway while Mercedes technically can do what they want under 1.2l/100km but have said they'll keep it at 0.9l/100km because they're such good eggs and aren't doing that thing everyone thinks they're doing anyway so it doesn't matter to them either way. *cough* Utter BS *cough*

Only next year can the FIA properly monitor it as they couldn't get the rule change passed for this year to introduce proper monitoring techniques and active control valves between the PU and intake banned without the teams agreeing to it.

It's a pointless band aid to stop extra tanks being strapped on the car and oil usage getting way out of control. *cough* Ferrari until Baku *cough*

:twisted: :D

Author:  moby [ Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

Lotus49 wrote:
moby wrote:
So... A quali run is 3 laps. How will anyone know if that is 3 laps at .9 or 1and 1/4 laps at, I was about to say 1.2, but ... Anything?


They won't. All the FIA can measure is how much is in the tanks before and after the session then work out the usage. Mercedes and Ferrari can do want they want when they want as long as it doesn't come in over that avg for Ferrari anyway while Mercedes technically can do what they want under 1.2l/100km but have said they'll keep it at 0.9l/100km because they're such good eggs and aren't doing that thing everyone thinks they're doing anyway so it doesn't matter to them either way. *cough* Utter BS *cough*

Only next year can the FIA properly monitor it as they couldn't get the rule change passed for this year to introduce proper monitoring techniques and active control valves between the PU and intake banned without the teams agreeing to it.

It's a pointless band aid to stop extra tanks being strapped on the car and oil usage getting way out of control. *cough* Ferrari until Baku *cough*

:twisted: :D


Even next year they will be checking the usage with a 'dipstick' So look out for wide shallow tanks

Author:  Lotus49 [ Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Mercedes customers forced to run inferior engine setting

moby wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
moby wrote:
So... A quali run is 3 laps. How will anyone know if that is 3 laps at .9 or 1and 1/4 laps at, I was about to say 1.2, but ... Anything?


They won't. All the FIA can measure is how much is in the tanks before and after the session then work out the usage. Mercedes and Ferrari can do want they want when they want as long as it doesn't come in over that avg for Ferrari anyway while Mercedes technically can do what they want under 1.2l/100km but have said they'll keep it at 0.9l/100km because they're such good eggs and aren't doing that thing everyone thinks they're doing anyway so it doesn't matter to them either way. *cough* Utter BS *cough*

Only next year can the FIA properly monitor it as they couldn't get the rule change passed for this year to introduce proper monitoring techniques and active control valves between the PU and intake banned without the teams agreeing to it.

It's a pointless band aid to stop extra tanks being strapped on the car and oil usage getting way out of control. *cough* Ferrari until Baku *cough*

:twisted: :D


Even next year they will be checking the usage with a 'dipstick' So look out for wide shallow tanks


They have to provide the measurement of the oil level in the main tank at all times during the weekend to the FIA next year, surely they'll be ditching the dipstick?(Not Charlie W :o ). Also have to provide the mass of oil in each tank except the main tank one hour before they start the race.

But it's the active valves being banned that will stop it I believe unless they come up with a different way of bringing it in the CC as and when they want to, which they might of course.

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