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How Long Will You Give Honda to Shape Up?
One more year. 50%  50%  [ 15 ]
Two more years. 7%  7%  [ 2 ]
Three to four more years. 30%  30%  [ 9 ]
Five plus years. 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
Honda will withdraw from F1 and I will still support them. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 30
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:19 am 
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Reading the forum here there continues to be a small group of folks who continue to support Honda and think that Alonso's best career move is for him to stay hitched up with McLaren Honda. I find this amazing, even shocking considering how awful Honda's performance has been year after year after year. So I'm trying to poll this small group and find out where their tolerance ends. It must end at some point, right?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:28 am 
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One more year with help from Ilmor, with or without Alonso.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:38 am 
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I'm not a Honda supporter per se but I'd give them another year working with Illien and the new set up at Sakura at least. The first two years were lost to a concept they couldn't introduce lean burn with so they had to have a total restart last winter and yeah it went horribly but at least lets see if the changes brought about by that horrid situation bear fruit before pulling the plug on Works support.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:20 pm 
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I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


I've heard this opinion many times before and understand it clearly. What I want to know is, how many more years do you give Honda to shape up? Can you put a number on it?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:42 pm 
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My initial response was one more year, then with some more thought it would make more sense to see how things go when everyone has a new engine.
If they start with a level startline, if not field, we should better see how things are going. Remembering Honda are in it to learn stuff as much as to get titles.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


I've heard this opinion many times before and understand it clearly. What I want to know is, how many more years do you give Honda to shape up? Can you put a number on it?

Well, assuming this report is accurate and the new engines will be introduced in 2020, I'd say that McLaren's best option is just to grit their teeth and soldier on. The new rules are supposed to make them less complex and less of a deterrent to new entries. Plus, Honda will this time be in at the start and not have to play catch up. We've already established that there are no realistic race-winning alternatives for McLaren for 2018, so even if next year doesn't bear fruit it would seem far more sensible for them to stick it out one more year after that and focus on hitting the ground running as a Works team in the next iteration of the rules. Their bed is made and they need to keep lying in it. Anything else is too short-term, without even giving any guarantees of success anyway


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:01 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


I've heard this opinion many times before and understand it clearly. What I want to know is, how many more years do you give Honda to shape up? Can you put a number on it?


honda gets as many years to "shape up" as they want to? it doesn't matter what me, you are anyone else thinks


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:58 pm 
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I'm in no way a Honda supporter, but I am a McLaren supporter. I'm not going to say that I'm happy with where Honda are right now and where that leaves McLaren, but I'm also not as disappointed with them as I was at this stage last year.

I personally think that McLaren should stick with Honda (and take their money whilst they're struggling for a decent main sponsor!) at least until the first year of the next major engine regs change. Hopefully they are learning a lot still from running and from what I gather, the next engine regs will be a lot simpler so hopefully they can produce a more competitive engine then.

I doubt that Honda or Renault will be able to catch Mercedes or Ferrari engines until the reg change. If they have not been able to produce an engine more on par with Mercedes or Ferrari then, then I really can't see them producing a good f1 engine ever.

On the plus side of things, with Alonso not being able to fight for wins or podiums, he has seemed to be much mellower than he used to be and I have actually found myself enjoying his interviews and off track antics since rejoining McLaren after spending 8 years almost hating him!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Can't answer the poll since I'm not the target audience so won't litter the results.

However, this is the first year of unrestricted development and they've come quite some way. They are still unreliable, but you can fix reliability. They should now be focusing on getting better and faster, which seems to be going in the right direction - possibly thanks to Ilien.

I'll be holding out until the start of next season to know where they stand. But as I am not a Honda fan (not particularly a fan of any engine manufacturer tbh), I don't really have to think about whether or not or how long to support them.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:43 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


I've heard this opinion many times before and understand it clearly. What I want to know is, how many more years do you give Honda to shape up? Can you put a number on it?

Well, assuming this report is accurate and the new engines will be introduced in 2020, I'd say that McLaren's best option is just to grit their teeth and soldier on. The new rules are supposed to make them less complex and less of a deterrent to new entries. Plus, Honda will this time be in at the start and not have to play catch up. We've already established that there are no realistic race-winning alternatives for McLaren for 2018, so even if next year doesn't bear fruit it would seem far more sensible for them to stick it out one more year after that and focus on hitting the ground running as a Works team in the next iteration of the rules. Their bed is made and they need to keep lying in it. Anything else is too short-term, without even giving any guarantees of success anyway


Well reading that article was going fine, right up until The Helmet stuck his ore in. FFS, if its that important, build one. If your company does not have the money and resources, on one does.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:54 pm 
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I’m a McLaren supporter rather than a Honda supporter, so the more relevant question for me would be; how long will McLaren supporters continue to support McLaren under their current partnership with Honda?

It’s a difficult one as I agree(d) with the principle that they need a works engine in the current climate, I don’t think anyone thought it would pan out like this though.

The other pertinent question should be; how long will fans give F1 to shape up given the teams they support are so shackled to regulations that don’t allow them to develop throughout the season.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


I've heard this opinion many times before and understand it clearly. What I want to know is, how many more years do you give Honda to shape up? Can you put a number on it?

Well, assuming this report is accurate and the new engines will be introduced in 2020, I'd say that McLaren's best option is just to grit their teeth and soldier on. The new rules are supposed to make them less complex and less of a deterrent to new entries. Plus, Honda will this time be in at the start and not have to play catch up. We've already established that there are no realistic race-winning alternatives for McLaren for 2018, so even if next year doesn't bear fruit it would seem far more sensible for them to stick it out one more year after that and focus on hitting the ground running as a Works team in the next iteration of the rules. Their bed is made and they need to keep lying in it. Anything else is too short-term, without even giving any guarantees of success anyway


That's a reasonable approached. It just doesnt work out for Fernando.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:00 pm 
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pc27b wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


I've heard this opinion many times before and understand it clearly. What I want to know is, how many more years do you give Honda to shape up? Can you put a number on it?


honda gets as many years to "shape up" as they want to? it doesn't matter what me, you are anyone else thinks


You missed the point, but that's OK.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


I've heard this opinion many times before and understand it clearly. What I want to know is, how many more years do you give Honda to shape up? Can you put a number on it?

Well, assuming this report is accurate and the new engines will be introduced in 2020, I'd say that McLaren's best option is just to grit their teeth and soldier on. The new rules are supposed to make them less complex and less of a deterrent to new entries. Plus, Honda will this time be in at the start and not have to play catch up. We've already established that there are no realistic race-winning alternatives for McLaren for 2018, so even if next year doesn't bear fruit it would seem far more sensible for them to stick it out one more year after that and focus on hitting the ground running as a Works team in the next iteration of the rules. Their bed is made and they need to keep lying in it. Anything else is too short-term, without even giving any guarantees of success anyway


That's a reasonable approached. It just doesnt work out for Fernando.

No, unfortunately. But, as much as they need Fernando, I think they need a strong PU more, especially for the long term. They could e.g. switch to Renault next year and if that doesn't bear fruit then Alonso will go anyway, leaving them with no works deal and no star driver. But if they persevere with Honda and it finally pays off, even if only in 2020, then at least they have a better looking future ahead of them


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:24 pm 
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Biffa wrote:
I’m a McLaren supporter rather than a Honda supporter, so the more relevant question for me would be; how long will McLaren supporters continue to support McLaren under their current partnership with Honda?

It’s a difficult one as I agree(d) with the principle that they need a works engine in the current climate, I don’t think anyone thought it would pan out like this though.

The other pertinent question should be; how long will fans give F1 to shape up given the teams they support are so shackled to regulations that don’t allow them to develop throughout the season.


I have always had an attachment to Mclaren, but from early this year really can not see the company baring the name as Mclaren.
Mclaren is dead, long live Mclaren.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:45 pm 
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I feel like I've already signed off. I just don't expect them to improve much this year.

I say if its not working next year, just let it go and move.

Its just a shame that they'll have effectively tarnished the twilight years of 2 world champions' careers.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:09 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I'm not sure that many of the people you've been discussing with are Honda supporters, exactly, just that they recognise that things aren't always black and white.

Honda are struggling, no doubt about it. But from Mclaren's perspective none of the alternative options are particularly attractive. If there is any doubt that being a Works team is the only way to go, then I'd be very surprised. It's a very big thing, with extreme long-term implications, to abandon that club. And to what alternative? Mercedes have closed the door, by all accounts, as have Ferrari (not 100% about the last one, but I think that's what I read). Which leaves Renault, and to be frank I think they have arguably been worse than Honda recently, as I posted in another thread. They are one of the original manufacturers when the new format was arranged and they have been pretty woeful in it. At least Honda has the excuse that's been playing catch up all these years.

Bottom line is that I don't believe McLaren has much in the way of realistic alternatives. Sure, Honda haven't covered themselves in glory, but they still remain the best bet for McLaren in the long term. That's not supporting them, just being realistic


McLaren has no choice, agreed. But that doesn't translate into Honda being a good choice. It's a terrible choice, but unfortunately the only choice. And Honda will still suck in 2020.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:10 pm 
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I think it is possible they don't even have a year. If Mclaren drop them at the end of the season, Honda may be done. They wont provide free engines to mid-level team and NOBODY is willing to pay for the pleasure.

When you look at Honda's track record in F1, it is highly over rated. With the exception of that brief, glorious period with Williams and Mclaren what have they actually achieved?

Very little.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:17 pm 
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moby wrote:
Biffa wrote:
I’m a McLaren supporter rather than a Honda supporter, so the more relevant question for me would be; how long will McLaren supporters continue to support McLaren under their current partnership with Honda?

It’s a difficult one as I agree(d) with the principle that they need a works engine in the current climate, I don’t think anyone thought it would pan out like this though.

The other pertinent question should be; how long will fans give F1 to shape up given the teams they support are so shackled to regulations that don’t allow them to develop throughout the season.


I have always had an attachment to Mclaren, but from early this year really can not see the company baring the name as Mclaren.
Mclaren is dead, long live Mclaren.


Same here, also (love him or loath him), the way Ron was ousted saddened me and marked the end of an era (for me anyway), he was one of last 'old school' characters that I’ve followed since my introduction to F1 in the Senna/Mansell days.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:03 pm 
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I will support McLaren forever, even if they become another Williams and never win another race.

As for Honda... :uhoh:

I suppose I am one of those who thinks the best move is to stay with them, but that doesn't mean I'm supportive. However, look at what we know. Ferrari won't give Macca an engine. Mercedes won't give Macca an engine. That leaves Renault, or trying to bring a new manufacturer in. They tried that with Honda, and it was a disaster; there's no logical reason to think it would go any differently with a different new manufacturer. So that leaves Renault.

Renault has an engine that isn't winning races right now, and that's with a car that probably has very close to the best chassis (RBR). It's not getting better at any faster of a rate than the Honda, and it's also tied to a factory team that wouldn't give Macca priority. If the goal is to win championships - and it should be - then Renault is no better than Honda. It would look better in the short term, but the potential to deliver on the title is actually less, IMO.

So for McLaren, the right choice in my opinion is to stick with Honda until at least the new engine rules. Not because I believe in Honda, but because I don't believe in any viable alternative.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I will support McLaren forever, even if they become another Williams and never win another race.

As for Honda... :uhoh:

I suppose I am one of those who thinks the best move is to stay with them, but that doesn't mean I'm supportive. However, look at what we know. Ferrari won't give Macca an engine. Mercedes won't give Macca an engine. That leaves Renault, or trying to bring a new manufacturer in. They tried that with Honda, and it was a disaster; there's no logical reason to think it would go any differently with a different new manufacturer. So that leaves Renault.

Renault has an engine that isn't winning races right now, and that's with a car that probably has very close to the best chassis (RBR). It's not getting better at any faster of a rate than the Honda, and it's also tied to a factory team that wouldn't give Macca priority. If the goal is to win championships - and it should be - then Renault is no better than Honda. It would look better in the short term, but the potential to deliver on the title is actually less, IMO.

So for McLaren, the right choice in my opinion is to stick with Honda until at least the new engine rules. Not because I believe in Honda, but because I don't believe in any viable alternative.


Renault engines are quite reliable, its the TAG engines that keep bombing :]


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:49 pm 
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I'm not sure how many people actually support an engine supplier.

Anyway, my question would be what are McLaren's aims? Then what are their options and what is the best one (or perhaps "least worst one" is more appropriate) to hopefully achieve those aims?

I suspect it is unlikely that Ferrari or Mercedes will supply an engine to a team that they feel is capable of beating them to a championship with that engine. Renault have done so before, but that is very much the exception rather than the rule. And besides, they are still a long way from equality with the top two as we speak, and that's starting from a better position than Honda did.

McLaren's theory when going with Honda was that in order to win championships in F1 as the engine formula stands you in likelihood have to be a de-facto factory team: Despite the clear failure of Honda to supply a winning engine, I still suspect that logic stands. I'm not convinced they could actually end up where the want and expect to be with another engine supplier any more than they can by sticking with Honda.

So, my conclusion is that their best bet is to stick with Honda and hope they find a way to become competitive within the current regulations. Then when the regulations change (in 2020) to make the engines simpler, attract more manufacturers and potentially level the playing field, then if Honda still aren't competitive make the change.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:03 am 
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I actually used to be a big Honda fan. But I just believe Honda as a company has lost the plot a long time ago. I voted one more year, but I don't think Mclaren should stick with them any longer and I truly feel they should drop them at the end of this year if they can get Mercedes to supply. I think even 90% of a Mercedes engine is still better than anything Honda will ever put out. I am convinced of this and that is how little I believe in Honda. I also think that the current pecking order in the power unit manufacturers will never change for the remainder of these regulations and possibly the next regulations. Mercedes will always be the best, Ferrari close second, Renault 3rd and Honda last, no matter how much improvement the latter does make. And I do believe Honda will improve, but they will never be talked about in the same breathe as Mercedes or Ferrari. Just my 2 cents.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:16 am 
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I voted three to four years.

I'm not a Mclaren fan, or a Honda fan. But I think it would be crazy to go through all of this pain and reputation damage, and not give them a chance under the new engine regs.

They've had to play catch up since they started. Give them a chance to see what they can do with a clean slate, then judge from there.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:00 am 
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I'll put a number on it. None.

At this stage they have improved to the point they are exactly where I said they would be - fighting for the scraps of points if things go their way.

The worst thing is? Their reliability doesn't seem to be any better than their pace. They have penalties nearly every weekend and we are not talking about a few. This whole situation was a joke, is a joke and still will be a joke. Honda need more cars using that engine but so far everyone who has remotely looked at an interest has pulled out. Why would anyone look at that Honda engine? They'd have to be free.

Mclaren I'm sure would be planning for both options - to stick and to leave. They would already have a team of engineers organizing a car based on having a different engine (standard practice).

The question is - if they stick and don't improve next season what is the point of sticking with them? None. If they go else where and it takes a few months or even next season to build their car around the new engine - it's worth it IF it's a better performance/reliability engine.

Funny thing is, that last question wouldn't be popping up. These teams have changed engines plenty of times and done far better. Why? because they plan for it. Building a car around a new engine doesn't take 5 minutes but you know - it doesn't take a whole year either. Mclarens main problems with Honda was that it was a brand new engine, not one that was already built and used in F1. It wasn't a design modified or altered from the year before like other engines. It was fresh and new. Teams have had new engines put in to their cars - some times they gain a few places or lose them but they rarely have the same start Mclaren had with Honda.

So yes, I think they'd be stupid to stick around with Honda. They can continue to put on the brave politician face but I get the feeling the decision is already made. At this point the engine is not good enough.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:31 am 
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Personally I think they should stick with them for next year at least and see how it plays out. McLaren-Ferrari just doesn't seem right for either side and I don't think a Renault customer deal is better than a works Honda one for a team aiming for the top. I would be tempted to take a Mercedes customer deal though.

kleefton wrote:
I actually used to be a big Honda fan. But I just believe Honda as a company has lost the plot a long time ago. I voted one more year, but I don't think Mclaren should stick with them any longer and I truly feel they should drop them at the end of this year if they can get Mercedes to supply. I think even 90% of a Mercedes engine is still better than anything Honda will ever put out. I am convinced of this and that is how little I believe in Honda. I also think that the current pecking order in the power unit manufacturers will never change for the remainder of these regulations and possibly the next regulations. Mercedes will always be the best, Ferrari close second, Renault 3rd and Honda last, no matter how much improvement the latter does make. And I do believe Honda will improve, but they will never be talked about in the same breathe as Mercedes or Ferrari. Just my 2 cents.

This post gave Herb Tarlik an erection :-P


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:02 am 
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Lots of replies, but not as many votes. Most of the replies fail to answer the question posed by the thread: How many years do you give Honda to get it right?

Thanks to those who answered with a number!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:04 am 
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Exediron wrote:
It's not getting better at any faster of a rate than the Honda, and it's also tied to a factory team that wouldn't give Macca priority. If the goal is to win championships - and it should be - then Renault is no better than Honda.


At this point, I dont think there is one wit of difference between McLaren's championship aspirations and Sauber's.


Last edited by Herb Tarlik on Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:04 am 
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Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:08 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Wow......incredible news. I hope it is true and that Honda is forced to leave F1.

I agree completely with your conclusion. The hybrid era has been an unmitigated failure. Less manufacturers and higher costs to the teams. Much higher costs.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It's not getting better at any faster of a rate than the Honda, and it's also tied to a factory team that wouldn't give Macca priority. If the goal is to win championships - and it should be - then Renault is no better than Honda.


At this point, I dont think there is one wit of difference between McLaren's championship aspirations and Sauber's.

Apparently a reason given for Sauber not taking the Honda engine is that they would have needed the Mclaren gearbox and 'bits' with it, and felt that if Mclaren bombed Honda they would be left high and dry.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Renault isn't much of an improvement over Honda, sadly. They're lucky that Honda sucks so much, it takes attention away from them.

Beggars can't be choosers though, so Renault it is then for McLaren. And unlike Honda, they at least have a 1% chance they can get close to Ferrari/Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:45 pm 
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moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Exediron wrote:
It's not getting better at any faster of a rate than the Honda, and it's also tied to a factory team that wouldn't give Macca priority. If the goal is to win championships - and it should be - then Renault is no better than Honda.


At this point, I dont think there is one wit of difference between McLaren's championship aspirations and Sauber's.

Apparently a reason given for Sauber not taking the Honda engine is that they would have needed the Mclaren gearbox and 'bits' with it, and felt that if Mclaren bombed Honda they would be left high and dry.

which does make sense and ties in with another recent report I read that Toro Rosso have asked McLaren for a quote to supply gearboxes should they switch to Honda engines...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Huge gamble if true.

Sir Frank will be tempted to pinch Honda with an eye on the next regs I bet. Stroll money+Honda money can cover any loses through championship position and works support in the next regs could propel them back up the grid if Honda get it right.

And yes I understand that If's bigger than Space based on their performance in these regs but still, the next regs are a lot less complex and in an area Honda have shown performance in so it will mighty tempting for someone like him.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Huge gamble if true.

Sir Frank will be tempted to pinch Honda with an eye on the next regs I bet. Stroll money+Honda money can cover any loses through championship position and works support in the next regs could propel them back up the grid if Honda get it right.

And yes I understand that If's bigger than Space based on their performance in these regs but still, the next regs are a lot less complex and in an area Honda have shown performance in so it will mighty tempting for someone like him.


I have to wonder though, would Honda be keen to 'follow' Alonso?

They may have no other option I suppose.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:20 pm 
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moby wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Huge gamble if true.

Sir Frank will be tempted to pinch Honda with an eye on the next regs I bet. Stroll money+Honda money can cover any loses through championship position and works support in the next regs could propel them back up the grid if Honda get it right.

And yes I understand that If's bigger than Space based on their performance in these regs but still, the next regs are a lot less complex and in an area Honda have shown performance in so it will mighty tempting for someone like him.


I have to wonder though, would Honda be keen to 'follow' Alonso?

They may have no other option I suppose.


If McLaren dump Honda for Renault then Alonso will stay with them i'm 100% certain. The only reason he hasn't re-signed is he doesn't want Honda engines anymore.

The relationship between Honda-Alonso is dead from both sides as far as I can tell.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:52 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Renault isn't much of an improvement over Honda, sadly. They're lucky that Honda sucks so much, it takes attention away from them.

Beggars can't be choosers though, so Renault it is then for McLaren. And unlike Honda, they at least have a 1% chance they can get close to Ferrari/Mercedes.


How many penalty positions does Renault get? Anywhere near the hundreds that Honda has racked up this season?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Renault isn't much of an improvement over Honda, sadly. They're lucky that Honda sucks so much, it takes attention away from them.

Beggars can't be choosers though, so Renault it is then for McLaren. And unlike Honda, they at least have a 1% chance they can get close to Ferrari/Mercedes.


How many penalty positions does Renault get? Anywhere near the hundreds that Honda has racked up this season?


Enough for Horner and Verstappen to go through Renault like a bulldozer after Spa.

Yes they're in a much better position than Honda of course but lets not pretend that first off they are competitive in the true sense, they are not, or that they don't have plethora of their own issues. They helped frame these rules 7 years ago, had a 3 year head start on Honda and are about to introduce yet another new concept (At least their 3rd) next year.

They do have a fuel supplier partner and the reduced oil consumption next year should give them a free 20bhp over Ferrari/Merc and they're only said to be 30-35bhp away now so they could well be very competitive next year though which is why Alonso wants them.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Posted in the Silly Season thread:

Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Renault isn't much of an improvement over Honda, sadly. They're lucky that Honda sucks so much, it takes attention away from them.

Beggars can't be choosers though, so Renault it is then for McLaren. And unlike Honda, they at least have a 1% chance they can get close to Ferrari/Mercedes.


How many penalty positions does Renault get? Anywhere near the hundreds that Honda has racked up this season?


Enough for Horner and Verstappen to go through Renault like a bulldozer after Spa.

Yes they're in a much better position than Honda of course but lets not pretend that first off they are competitive in the true sense, they are not, or that they don't have plethora of their own issues. They helped frame these rules 7 years ago, had a 3 year head start on Honda and are about to introduce yet another new concept (At least their 3rd) next year.

They do have a fuel supplier partner and the reduced oil consumption next year should give them a free 20bhp over Ferrari/Merc and they're only said to be 30-35bhp away now so they could well be very competitive next year though which is why Alonso wants them.


Renault powered Red Bulls might not be fighting for the wins, but podiums are a very realistic possibility with that engine. You just dont go from non winning to WCC contending without regular podium scoring first. A McLaren chassis and a Renault engine should give McLaren a reasonable shot at podiums early on. While doing that they can refine their package and work with Renault to generate a challenge on the world championship. None of this is even remotely possible with a Honda lump in the back of the car. Just making it to the grid without penalties is all that Honda can hope for.


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