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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
LBET wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

How well would Hamilton or Vettel act if they were flailing around in 15th place every single race?

They'd probably make sure their next career move was in their own best interest. Alonso need to do the exact opposite of what he wants to do the next time he signs a contract. Oh and a better attitude would help.


Help what?. It doesn't make your car go faster and he could have the best attitude on the grid and it won't help him get put alongside Seb or Lewis, he's too talented and that leads to headaches top teams don't want if they've already got the top talent already there.

With the absence of top tier talent a good attitude and ability to take a beating and smile can get you a good seat of course but if you're also a top tier talent it will get you nowhere but the lead role in another team rather than the chance of being put alongside another top tier talent in their team.

How often does that happen?. Only Red Bull by way of their junior programme paying off and forcing them to pit them together are the biggest team with equal(ish) talent.

The other 2 simply don't want to yet and won't until they can't beat another line up to the WCC (like Red Bull).

It's his personality that can be a headache, by all accounts he burnt his bridges with Mercedes in 2007 and Ferrari in 2014 because of his attitude.


I'm sure it can, but so can Lewis and Seb's. The good doctor can't even shower in peace and answer a call from Toto without thinking it's about Lewis having a fit and Seb got his knuckles rapped last year and told to shut up and focus on driving by Sergio.

Which is exactly the problem, they don't want to double those headaches. Kimi and Bottas offer no such headaches of their own and don't increase the headaches caused by Lewis and Seb. Alonso would do both.

(Burnt bridges don't matter for Ferrari anyway as you believe Seb has an Alonso shaped clause in his contract remember.)

That was said of his first contract.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
justmoi wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
LBET wrote:
They'd probably make sure their next career move was in their own best interest. Alonso need to do the exact opposite of what he wants to do the next time he signs a contract. Oh and a better attitude would help.


Help what?. It doesn't make your car go faster and he could have the best attitude on the grid and it won't help him get put alongside Seb or Lewis, he's too talented and that leads to headaches top teams don't want if they've already got the top talent already there.

With the absence of top tier talent a good attitude and ability to take a beating and smile can get you a good seat of course but if you're also a top tier talent it will get you nowhere but the lead role in another team rather than the chance of being put alongside another top tier talent in their team.

How often does that happen?. Only Red Bull by way of their junior programme paying off and forcing them to pit them together are the biggest team with equal(ish) talent.

The other 2 simply don't want to yet and won't until they can't beat another line up to the WCC (like Red Bull).


NO. It will help get you a good job. He can be a top talent AND have the right attitude, no? Repeatedly dumping on Ferrari after leaving and then pleading to go back when they're competitive I found shocking. His attitude is super unprofessional. Why on earth would they take him back. None of the top teams taking him is surely not because of his abilities to drive a car. Mercedes even flirted with Vettel (another top and very expensive even talent) and if we're to believe Lauda contemplated pairing him with Lewis.

A different top talent and Kimi and Valteri's seats were there to be had. I mean this guy has blackmailed his boss and ended up costing them 100 million USD and constructors points, totally dumped on his previous employer and is now doing the same to his current ones. At least be professional? His attitude is certainly NOT making the cars go faster.

Top talent though, no doubt


Not if you've got the same level of talent as the top guys already at the team it wont. They don't want the headache of another Rosberg never mind an Alonso. Bottas and Kimi are two drivers comfortably slower than the big boys but are happy to take it and smile. That's where having a good attitude helps, but because headaches arrive when team mates are competitive it doesn't matter what Alonso does/did he wouldn't be getting the call because he's too competitive and why give yourself that problem again but even worse.

He answered repeated questions about regretting leaving Ferrari and having his nose rubbed in their turn around and Honda's failure at every weekend during 2015. Of course he responded with why he left, nothing wrong with those comments and he also praised them too don't forget.

You can believe Ferrari and Mercedes are basing who they sign on talent and it's Alonso's history that precluded him all you want, I'm not buying it for a second. Neither made any attempt to tempt Red Bull to part with one of their drivers and that tells me everything about what they were looking for this time.

You would think Alonso currently driving for McLaren would be a hint as to what teams are like given the right circumstance but apparently not.

Both Red Bull drivers are under contract, let's see what happens in 2019 and 2020.


If they really wanted to have the best line up then you'd think they'd at least try. Yeah we'll see what the circumstances are in 2019/20, it may well be different.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
LBET wrote:
They'd probably make sure their next career move was in their own best interest. Alonso need to do the exact opposite of what he wants to do the next time he signs a contract. Oh and a better attitude would help.


Help what?. It doesn't make your car go faster and he could have the best attitude on the grid and it won't help him get put alongside Seb or Lewis, he's too talented and that leads to headaches top teams don't want if they've already got the top talent already there.

With the absence of top tier talent a good attitude and ability to take a beating and smile can get you a good seat of course but if you're also a top tier talent it will get you nowhere but the lead role in another team rather than the chance of being put alongside another top tier talent in their team.

How often does that happen?. Only Red Bull by way of their junior programme paying off and forcing them to pit them together are the biggest team with equal(ish) talent.

The other 2 simply don't want to yet and won't until they can't beat another line up to the WCC (like Red Bull).

It's his personality that can be a headache, by all accounts he burnt his bridges with Mercedes in 2007 and Ferrari in 2014 because of his attitude.


I'm sure it can, but so can Lewis and Seb's. The good doctor can't even shower in peace and answer a call from Toto without thinking it's about Lewis having a fit and Seb got his knuckles rapped last year and told to shut up and focus on driving by Sergio.

Which is exactly the problem, they don't want to double those headaches. Kimi and Bottas offer no such headaches of their own and don't increase the headaches caused by Lewis and Seb. Alonso would do both.

(Burnt bridges don't matter for Ferrari anyway as you believe Seb has an Alonso shaped clause in his contract remember.)

That was said of his first contract.


Fair enough, ignore the brackets.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
justmoi wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Help what?. It doesn't make your car go faster and he could have the best attitude on the grid and it won't help him get put alongside Seb or Lewis, he's too talented and that leads to headaches top teams don't want if they've already got the top talent already there.

With the absence of top tier talent a good attitude and ability to take a beating and smile can get you a good seat of course but if you're also a top tier talent it will get you nowhere but the lead role in another team rather than the chance of being put alongside another top tier talent in their team.

How often does that happen?. Only Red Bull by way of their junior programme paying off and forcing them to pit them together are the biggest team with equal(ish) talent.

The other 2 simply don't want to yet and won't until they can't beat another line up to the WCC (like Red Bull).


NO. It will help get you a good job. He can be a top talent AND have the right attitude, no? Repeatedly dumping on Ferrari after leaving and then pleading to go back when they're competitive I found shocking. His attitude is super unprofessional. Why on earth would they take him back. None of the top teams taking him is surely not because of his abilities to drive a car. Mercedes even flirted with Vettel (another top and very expensive even talent) and if we're to believe Lauda contemplated pairing him with Lewis.

A different top talent and Kimi and Valteri's seats were there to be had. I mean this guy has blackmailed his boss and ended up costing them 100 million USD and constructors points, totally dumped on his previous employer and is now doing the same to his current ones. At least be professional? His attitude is certainly NOT making the cars go faster.

Top talent though, no doubt


Not if you've got the same level of talent as the top guys already at the team it wont. They don't want the headache of another Rosberg never mind an Alonso. Bottas and Kimi are two drivers comfortably slower than the big boys but are happy to take it and smile. That's where having a good attitude helps, but because headaches arrive when team mates are competitive it doesn't matter what Alonso does/did he wouldn't be getting the call because he's too competitive and why give yourself that problem again but even worse.

He answered repeated questions about regretting leaving Ferrari and having his nose rubbed in their turn around and Honda's failure at every weekend during 2015. Of course he responded with why he left, nothing wrong with those comments and he also praised them too don't forget.

You can believe Ferrari and Mercedes are basing who they sign on talent and it's Alonso's history that precluded him all you want, I'm not buying it for a second. Neither made any attempt to tempt Red Bull to part with one of their drivers and that tells me everything about what they were looking for this time.

You would think Alonso currently driving for McLaren would be a hint as to what teams are like given the right circumstance but apparently not.

Both Red Bull drivers are under contract, let's see what happens in 2019 and 2020.


If they really wanted to have the best line up then you'd think they'd at least try. Yeah we'll see what the circumstances are in 2019/20, it may well be different.

It would cost a lot of money to buy out their contracts and then pay their wages, maybe you like spending other people's money? :)

I've posted in the silly season thread that Mercedes are looking at both Ricciardo and Verstappen as future drivers.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Help what?. It doesn't make your car go faster and he could have the best attitude on the grid and it won't help him get put alongside Seb or Lewis, he's too talented and that leads to headaches top teams don't want if they've already got the top talent already there.

With the absence of top tier talent a good attitude and ability to take a beating and smile can get you a good seat of course but if you're also a top tier talent it will get you nowhere but the lead role in another team rather than the chance of being put alongside another top tier talent in their team.

How often does that happen?. Only Red Bull by way of their junior programme paying off and forcing them to pit them together are the biggest team with equal(ish) talent.

The other 2 simply don't want to yet and won't until they can't beat another line up to the WCC (like Red Bull).

It's his personality that can be a headache, by all accounts he burnt his bridges with Mercedes in 2007 and Ferrari in 2014 because of his attitude.


I'm sure it can, but so can Lewis and Seb's. The good doctor can't even shower in peace and answer a call from Toto without thinking it's about Lewis having a fit and Seb got his knuckles rapped last year and told to shut up and focus on driving by Sergio.

Which is exactly the problem, they don't want to double those headaches. Kimi and Bottas offer no such headaches of their own and don't increase the headaches caused by Lewis and Seb. Alonso would do both.

(Burnt bridges don't matter for Ferrari anyway as you believe Seb has an Alonso shaped clause in his contract remember.)

That was said of his first contract.


Fair enough, ignore the brackets.

The bottom line for Alonso is that he didn't leave either organisations on good terms.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
justmoi wrote:
NO. It will help get you a good job. He can be a top talent AND have the right attitude, no? Repeatedly dumping on Ferrari after leaving and then pleading to go back when they're competitive I found shocking. His attitude is super unprofessional. Why on earth would they take him back. None of the top teams taking him is surely not because of his abilities to drive a car. Mercedes even flirted with Vettel (another top and very expensive even talent) and if we're to believe Lauda contemplated pairing him with Lewis.

A different top talent and Kimi and Valteri's seats were there to be had. I mean this guy has blackmailed his boss and ended up costing them 100 million USD and constructors points, totally dumped on his previous employer and is now doing the same to his current ones. At least be professional? His attitude is certainly NOT making the cars go faster.

Top talent though, no doubt


Not if you've got the same level of talent as the top guys already at the team it wont. They don't want the headache of another Rosberg never mind an Alonso. Bottas and Kimi are two drivers comfortably slower than the big boys but are happy to take it and smile. That's where having a good attitude helps, but because headaches arrive when team mates are competitive it doesn't matter what Alonso does/did he wouldn't be getting the call because he's too competitive and why give yourself that problem again but even worse.

He answered repeated questions about regretting leaving Ferrari and having his nose rubbed in their turn around and Honda's failure at every weekend during 2015. Of course he responded with why he left, nothing wrong with those comments and he also praised them too don't forget.

You can believe Ferrari and Mercedes are basing who they sign on talent and it's Alonso's history that precluded him all you want, I'm not buying it for a second. Neither made any attempt to tempt Red Bull to part with one of their drivers and that tells me everything about what they were looking for this time.

You would think Alonso currently driving for McLaren would be a hint as to what teams are like given the right circumstance but apparently not.

Both Red Bull drivers are under contract, let's see what happens in 2019 and 2020.


If they really wanted to have the best line up then you'd think they'd at least try. Yeah we'll see what the circumstances are in 2019/20, it may well be different.

It would cost a lot of money to buy out their contracts and then pay their wages, maybe you like spending other people's money? :)

I've posted in the silly season thread that Mercedes are looking at both Ricciardo and Verstappen as future drivers.


Who doesn't. :-P

I can see it in different circumstances for sure. If Renault can lose the gap over the winter then RB's lineup starts to become the biggest problem for Mercedes and Ferrari in terms of WCC so a change in tact would be in order. They still might go for their own juniors though, Ferrari especially with Leclerc.

It will be a lot more interesting than this silly season anyway.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's his personality that can be a headache, by all accounts he burnt his bridges with Mercedes in 2007 and Ferrari in 2014 because of his attitude.


I'm sure it can, but so can Lewis and Seb's. The good doctor can't even shower in peace and answer a call from Toto without thinking it's about Lewis having a fit and Seb got his knuckles rapped last year and told to shut up and focus on driving by Sergio.

Which is exactly the problem, they don't want to double those headaches. Kimi and Bottas offer no such headaches of their own and don't increase the headaches caused by Lewis and Seb. Alonso would do both.

(Burnt bridges don't matter for Ferrari anyway as you believe Seb has an Alonso shaped clause in his contract remember.)

That was said of his first contract.


Fair enough, ignore the brackets.

The bottom line for Alonso is that he didn't leave either organisations on good terms.


That's true enough, I just don't think it's the reason he's not sitting in either of them. I think both are more than happy with the top tier talent they've got and have no interest in having 2 at this point.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:47 am 
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slide wrote:
one thing I did notice when the crowd were booing lewis. seb did not register a flicker of distain and said nothing , I truly believe if it happened at Silverstone lewis would jump in and tell the English fans to not behave like that
and that says a lot about seb , and would he honour an agreement with kimi , like the 2 merc teammates did , and then my thoughts wander back to the banger cars incident , all very sporting and honourable-its hard to like a sore looser

are you on medication?

What is the purpose of this rant?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:01 am 
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slide wrote:
one thing I did notice when the crowd were booing lewis. seb did not register a flicker of distain and said nothing , I truly believe if it happened at Silverstone lewis would jump in and tell the English fans to not behave like that
and that says a lot about seb , and would he honour an agreement with kimi , like the 2 merc teammates did , and then my thoughts wander back to the banger cars incident , all very sporting and honourable-its hard to like a sore looser


:lol:

Lewis stepping in against a horde of upset fans? It'd be like being slapped with a wet lettuce.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:36 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

I'm sure it can, but so can Lewis and Seb's. The good doctor can't even shower in peace and answer a call from Toto without thinking it's about Lewis having a fit and Seb got his knuckles rapped last year and told to shut up and focus on driving by Sergio.

Which is exactly the problem, they don't want to double those headaches. Kimi and Bottas offer no such headaches of their own and don't increase the headaches caused by Lewis and Seb. Alonso would do both.

(Burnt bridges don't matter for Ferrari anyway as you believe Seb has an Alonso shaped clause in his contract remember.)

That was said of his first contract.


Fair enough, ignore the brackets.

The bottom line for Alonso is that he didn't leave either organisations on good terms.


That's true enough, I just don't think it's the reason he's not sitting in either of them. I think both are more than happy with the top tier talent they've got and have no interest in having 2 at this point.

Well both organisations have said they are not interested in him in no short terms.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was said of his first contract.


Fair enough, ignore the brackets.

The bottom line for Alonso is that he didn't leave either organisations on good terms.


That's true enough, I just don't think it's the reason he's not sitting in either of them. I think both are more than happy with the top tier talent they've got and have no interest in having 2 at this point.

Well both organisations have said they are not interested in him in no short terms.


Yeah and I believe them, it's perfectly clear otherwise he'd be there.

Again, It's just the reason given that I doubt.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:19 pm 
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A bit unrelated, dont know if has been reported before, but heard at Motorsport TV that the problems Ferrari had with setup at Monza were related to the rake/rear wing interaction and problems reported by Kimi at Spa were due to bad torque settings on front tires wheel guns.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:49 am 
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PRFAN wrote:
A bit unrelated, dont know if has been reported before, but heard at Motorsport TV that the problems Ferrari had with setup at Monza were related to the rake/rear wing interaction and problems reported by Kimi at Spa were due to bad torque settings on front tires wheel guns.

That last bit's a bit shocking, if true. These teams spend hundreds of millions to be let down by something as low-tech as incorrect torque settings 8O


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:40 am 
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Zoue wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
A bit unrelated, dont know if has been reported before, but heard at Motorsport TV that the problems Ferrari had with setup at Monza were related to the rake/rear wing interaction and problems reported by Kimi at Spa were due to bad torque settings on front tires wheel guns.

That last bit's a bit shocking, if true. These teams spend hundreds of millions to be let down by something as low-tech as incorrect torque settings 8O

I would be guessing then that the wheels were over tightened and as a result created a greater rolling resistance?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:55 pm 
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<pedant mode>If that were the case it would be an increase in friction the the wheel bearings not rolling resistance which is determined by the levels of friction between tire and road.</pedant mode>
;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:17 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
<pedant mode>If that were the case it would be an increase in friction the the wheel bearings not rolling resistance which is determined by the levels of friction between tire and road.</pedant mode>
;)

Don't the wheel bearings roll as well?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
A bit unrelated, dont know if has been reported before, but heard at Motorsport TV that the problems Ferrari had with setup at Monza were related to the rake/rear wing interaction and problems reported by Kimi at Spa were due to bad torque settings on front tires wheel guns.

That last bit's a bit shocking, if true. These teams spend hundreds of millions to be let down by something as low-tech as incorrect torque settings 8O

I would be guessing then that the wheels were over tightened and as a result created a greater rolling resistance?


That will make sense depending on th desing of the bearing, we had a intermitent steering wheel vibration on a sports car I used to own, after some searching it was found that one brake pad on the front wheel was draging ever so slightly causing the brake disk to get warmer and also create a small vibration at the wheel, took us some time to figure that one out.

On the report Peter Windsor said Ferrari reported an inconsistent torque being applied by the front guns to wheel nuts, not clear if it was too much or too little. I will assume too little would mimick the effect of an unbalance tire. But yeah interesting how such an expensive operation can be compromised by a wheel gun.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:16 am 
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PRFAN wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
PRFAN wrote:
A bit unrelated, dont know if has been reported before, but heard at Motorsport TV that the problems Ferrari had with setup at Monza were related to the rake/rear wing interaction and problems reported by Kimi at Spa were due to bad torque settings on front tires wheel guns.

That last bit's a bit shocking, if true. These teams spend hundreds of millions to be let down by something as low-tech as incorrect torque settings 8O

I would be guessing then that the wheels were over tightened and as a result created a greater rolling resistance?


That will make sense depending on th desing of the bearing, we had a intermitent steering wheel vibration on a sports car I used to own, after some searching it was found that one brake pad on the front wheel was draging ever so slightly causing the brake disk to get warmer and also create a small vibration at the wheel, took us some time to figure that one out.

On the report Peter Windsor said Ferrari reported an inconsistent torque being applied by the front guns to wheel nuts, not clear if it was too much or too little. I will assume too little would mimick the effect of an unbalance tire. But yeah interesting how such an expensive operation can be compromised by a wheel gun.

I was thinking that if it was too little then the wheel might eventually work loose?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:29 pm 
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Didn't Mclaren mess up the torque settings on the wheel gun in 2007/2008, was that what caused Hamilton big accident / tyre failure during the 2007 European GP qualifying?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:15 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Didn't Mclaren mess up the torque settings on the wheel gun in 2007/2008, was that what caused Hamilton big accident / tyre failure during the 2007 European GP qualifying?

I remember he had a front wheel failure, I thought that was Turkey 2007?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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