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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:54 am 
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lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo>

I'm not disputing Frentzen drove better on those days if Hakkinen or anybody else DNF'd due to error but it doesn't change the fact he was slower those days and inheritted places. On those days the others under performed, not Frentzen over performing.

He drove a good year, collected points in the 3rd best car and stayed on the out skirts of the title fight because
1) Hakkinen had 5 DNFs in the first 13 races
2) Ferrari lost there number 1 driver
3) Coulthard had 7 DNFs in a 16 race season

Now if you are in the 3rd best car and just finish races you are going to get a lot of podiums. He drove a great year but I don't think he drove any better than other years, circumstances played a huge part of it. It was the least amount of points to win a WDC under that points system, that is why he was close. He only scored 10 more points than Schumacher who missed 7 races and had to give up 4 points in Malaysia once he came back too.

That's all well known information. Even people without a basic knowledge of F1 understand that car performance mostly decides results

Consistency was the name of the game in 1999 and Frentzen was the best at it. In a wacky season it's consistency that shines (yet superior car performance always wins out in the end) - 1999, 2003, 2008, 2012

He underperformed in the Williams, no doubt about it. In his other Jordan years he made some major errors that he wasn't guilty of in 1999.
Maybe he performed at a similar level while at Sauber? It was before my time/when I started watching. I doubt it though


His performance level 1994-1996 got him signed to the best seat in F1, a seat at the time even Schumacher was trying to get into. Around 1994/1995 some believed him to be better or at least on the same level as Schumacher (obviously wrong) due to there performances in Sports cars as team mates. He had a good record before and after 1997. In 1998 he was pretty even with JV after being badly beaten in 1997.

Irvine was the most consistent driver in 1999 but he just wasn't very quick. He finished 14/16 races in the points. Hakkinen still only made 2 DNFs from driver error compared to HHF 1. Schumacher had 1 too but did less races. David Coulthard just 1. Eddie Irvine had 0.

Mechanical DNF or DNS
MS: 7 (out injured)
DC: 6
Mika: 3
HHF: 2
Irvine: 1

Its the reason Irvine himself had a title challenge, Hakkinen had worse reliability and made 2 errors compared to Eddies 0. But Irvine was embarrassingly slow. Schumacher came back and out qualified him by 1 and 1.5 seconds in the last 2 races. So that is the kind of level Eddie Irvine was operating at. It was a perfect storm season which allowed Irvine to challenge and Frentzen to get quite high in the standings. It's also worth pointing out that Frentzen eventually finished 22 points off Hakkinen, a sizeable gap.

In most F1 seasons if you give the best driver-car package 5 DNFs in the first 13 races (the point at which HHF had a title shot), remove the 2nd best car driver package due to injury and give the 3rd best car-driver package 6 mechanical DNFs in a 16 race season. Then you will get the 4th (Irvine) and 5th (Frentzen) car-driver packages high up the WDC rankings and probably challenging for the title.

To the best of my knowledge Schumacher only ever met with Williams in 1994 to get a better financial deal. Briatore came back with a better offer so he stayed where he was. There was no discussion between Schumacher and Williams for 1997. HHF got closer to JV in 1998 but that can happen when you're relegated to the midfield. JV beat him in qualy, scored more points and claimed one more podium. But it was closer. How would JV get on in the '99 Jordan? Who the hell knows. Probably very well, he was a world champion after all

Brilliant consistency isn't just about DNFs. It's about repeatedly claiming as best a finish as is reasonably possible with the equipment at hand. That's why Kimi stood out in '03, that's why Kubica stood out in '08, that's why Alonso stood out in '12

I don't know how anyone could say Irvine was the most consistent in '99. On one weekend he could turn on the style like in Austria. On another he could go completely AWOL. On other weekends he could be there or thereabouts and need his teammate to pull over. Who knew what version of Eddie would show up for a race weekend? At least Hakkinen was consistently fast despite his driving errors

Every weekend Frentzen would guarantee Jordan as strong a finish as was reasonably possible if the car made it to the flag. The only single driving mishap that I can recall all season was slipping off on someone else's oil in Imola - I've seen Kimi given a waiver for the same mishap at France '02. Frentzen's season was an amazing run of consistency not matched by anyone else. The only other legitimate contender was Ralf Schumacher

HHF was always a solid pair of hands. And he played that role to its maximum in 1999. He finished 22 points off Hakkinen because duh he was driving a Jordan. That's why Schumacher won out in '03, that's why Hamilton won out in '08, that's why Vettel won out in '12

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:51 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 12307
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo wrote:
lamo wrote:
mcdo>

I'm not disputing Frentzen drove better on those days if Hakkinen or anybody else DNF'd due to error but it doesn't change the fact he was slower those days and inheritted places. On those days the others under performed, not Frentzen over performing.

He drove a good year, collected points in the 3rd best car and stayed on the out skirts of the title fight because
1) Hakkinen had 5 DNFs in the first 13 races
2) Ferrari lost there number 1 driver
3) Coulthard had 7 DNFs in a 16 race season

Now if you are in the 3rd best car and just finish races you are going to get a lot of podiums. He drove a great year but I don't think he drove any better than other years, circumstances played a huge part of it. It was the least amount of points to win a WDC under that points system, that is why he was close. He only scored 10 more points than Schumacher who missed 7 races and had to give up 4 points in Malaysia once he came back too.

That's all well known information. Even people without a basic knowledge of F1 understand that car performance mostly decides results

Consistency was the name of the game in 1999 and Frentzen was the best at it. In a wacky season it's consistency that shines (yet superior car performance always wins out in the end) - 1999, 2003, 2008, 2012

He underperformed in the Williams, no doubt about it. In his other Jordan years he made some major errors that he wasn't guilty of in 1999.
Maybe he performed at a similar level while at Sauber? It was before my time/when I started watching. I doubt it though


His performance level 1994-1996 got him signed to the best seat in F1, a seat at the time even Schumacher was trying to get into. Around 1994/1995 some believed him to be better or at least on the same level as Schumacher (obviously wrong) due to there performances in Sports cars as team mates. He had a good record before and after 1997. In 1998 he was pretty even with JV after being badly beaten in 1997.

Irvine was the most consistent driver in 1999 but he just wasn't very quick. He finished 14/16 races in the points. Hakkinen still only made 2 DNFs from driver error compared to HHF 1. Schumacher had 1 too but did less races. David Coulthard just 1. Eddie Irvine had 0.

Mechanical DNF or DNS
MS: 7 (out injured)
DC: 6
Mika: 3
HHF: 2
Irvine: 1

Its the reason Irvine himself had a title challenge, Hakkinen had worse reliability and made 2 errors compared to Eddies 0. But Irvine was embarrassingly slow. Schumacher came back and out qualified him by 1 and 1.5 seconds in the last 2 races. So that is the kind of level Eddie Irvine was operating at. It was a perfect storm season which allowed Irvine to challenge and Frentzen to get quite high in the standings. It's also worth pointing out that Frentzen eventually finished 22 points off Hakkinen, a sizeable gap.

In most F1 seasons if you give the best driver-car package 5 DNFs in the first 13 races (the point at which HHF had a title shot), remove the 2nd best car driver package due to injury and give the 3rd best car-driver package 6 mechanical DNFs in a 16 race season. Then you will get the 4th (Irvine) and 5th (Frentzen) car-driver packages high up the WDC rankings and probably challenging for the title.

To the best of my knowledge Schumacher only ever met with Williams in 1994 to get a better financial deal. Briatore came back with a better offer so he stayed where he was. There was no discussion between Schumacher and Williams for 1997. HHF got closer to JV in 1998 but that can happen when you're relegated to the midfield. JV beat him in qualy, scored more points and claimed one more podium. But it was closer. How would JV get on in the '99 Jordan? Who the hell knows. Probably very well, he was a world champion after all

Brilliant consistency isn't just about DNFs. It's about repeatedly claiming as best a finish as is reasonably possible with the equipment at hand. That's why Kimi stood out in '03, that's why Kubica stood out in '08, that's why Alonso stood out in '12

I don't know how anyone could say Irvine was the most consistent in '99. On one weekend he could turn on the style like in Austria. On another he could go completely AWOL. On other weekends he could be there or thereabouts and need his teammate to pull over. Who knew what version of Eddie would show up for a race weekend? At least Hakkinen was consistently fast despite his driving errors

Every weekend Frentzen would guarantee Jordan as strong a finish as was reasonably possible if the car made it to the flag. The only single driving mishap that I can recall all season was slipping off on someone else's oil in Imola - I've seen Kimi given a waiver for the same mishap at France '02. Frentzen's season was an amazing run of consistency not matched by anyone else. The only other legitimate contender was Ralf Schumacher

HHF was always a solid pair of hands. And he played that role to its maximum in 1999. He finished 22 points off Hakkinen because duh he was driving a Jordan. That's why Schumacher won out in '03, that's why Hamilton won out in '08, that's why Vettel won
out in '12



Eddie's pace was pretty consistent. He won Austria because the faster Mclaren was spun out by the slower Mclaren and then Mclaren themselves messed up Coulthard's strategy. It wasn't won by Irvine showing stunning pace.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:18 pm 
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Posts: 8722
I don't really disagree, I just see his season as relying heavily on the top 2 drivers being handicapped. If MS hadn't got injured and Mika had just 1 fewer mechanical DNFs from the lead, Frentzen would score probably 10 points less, 44 points and finish 40-50 points off Schumacher and Hakkinen.

Bottas', Raikkonen's and Ricciardo's season would all look very good right now if Hamilton had a 40% DNF rate and Vettel missed nearly half the season injured.

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