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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:11 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:

I am well aware of what #1 status means, lamo. I am well aware of what hypocrisy means.
;)


If you think Mercedes were the only team to use team orders this years you need to look at Kimi Raikkonens lap times once Vettel pitted in Hungary. He was 1.6 seconds quicker and ordered to pit to prevent him taking the lead.

Historically, Mercedes have used team orders to maximise the race result regardless of driver. This happened in a race in 2013 when Hamilton was asked to move over for Rosberg, Hungary 2014, Monaco 2016, Bahrain 2017 and Hungary 2017. This may change in the future but every time they have issued an order it was to improve the teams points haul at that race.

The order in Hungary was to maximise Vettel and gained the team nothing in terms of points for that race. The same as all the other high profile Ferrari team orders, they didn't gain any team points just moved more toward the guy going for the championship - which is of course sensible. Mercedes will almost certainly move toward this method now too.

Keeping Raikkonen behind Vettel in Hungary maximised Ferrari's points haul for the weekend.


With the benefit hindsight it did. It could have also lost them the win by Raikkonen being bottled up and allowed Hamilton to get them both. The order in Germany 2010 was given for this very reason because Massa was running quite a slow pace and both Ferrari's were being caught by Vettel in 3rd place.

Also running your cars within 1.5 seconds of one another is a strategy usually avoided when you have another car right behind, because if a SC comes up you have to stack and the 2nd car gets overtaken. If the SC came out in the last 20-30 laps in Hungary, Hamilton might have won or at least got Kimi when everybody pitted and if Ferrari stayed out, he probably would have got them both on track judging by the pace Max had with just a small tyre offset to the Ferrari.

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Last edited by lamo on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:18 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
sure you have, lamo. I to have no problems with team orders... a stance that I have been on record with in this forum since 2002. What I do have a problem with is people trying to justify another team's use of them and then trying to paint Ferrari's use of team orders as being less than honorable. While you and I may well suspect the use of team orders by Ferrari or any other team, we do not really know beyond a doubt that they happened the way we think that they did. However, there is no question that Mercedes used team orders this year, yet it is Ferrari/Seb that are "targets" in here and being criticized for using team orders. Your own list of #1 driver "advantages" certainly can apply to drivers other than Seb Vettel, including Lewis, can it not?


Kimi was 1.5 seconds faster on his in lap than Vettel. Vettel's out lap was slow, Hamilton's out lap was 1.3 seconds quicker than Vettel's. That is how slow Vettel was, he had a broken car and was much slower than everybody else.

Kimi would have, without any doubt taken the lead of the race if he had gone 1 lap longer. For somebody that has been watching racing for what 50 years - you obviously know racing so if you can type "we don't know what went on for sure" is a bit sad really.

There is no explanation for Kimi's strategy other than to protect Vettel and for you to play the "we don't know for sure card" I welcome you to explain the logic to pitting a driver who just set 2 purple sectors and is on course to take the lead.

That answer is in the two posts above yours here, lamo. They maximized points by securing a 1-2 finish as opposed to what might well have been a 1-3, or worse. Is that not the kind of justifications we have seen for some of Merc's "strategy"?

My list of number 1 privileges can and does apply down the grid and I am sure many points in that list have and will increasingly apply to both Hamilton and Vettel. Nobody knows for sure the workings within each team and this wasn't directed purely at Vettel but just to show that team orders is a very small part of being a number 1. Team orders is the only part of that list in the public eye and all the important stuff we do not know about.

I can agree with this last paragraph, but the point is, your post schooling me on what #1 status was not for the purpose of applying it to every driver, it was directed at Ferrari and Seb as part of your defense on the debate arguing Ferrari team orders and Vettel's perceived #1 status, was it not? If I have read that wrong, then I do apologize.
Perhaps that falls into the "we don't know for sure card" too.


;)

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:26 pm 
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Blake wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
sure you have, lamo. I to have no problems with team orders... a stance that I have been on record with in this forum since 2002. What I do have a problem with is people trying to justify another team's use of them and then trying to paint Ferrari's use of team orders as being less than honorable. While you and I may well suspect the use of team orders by Ferrari or any other team, we do not really know beyond a doubt that they happened the way we think that they did. However, there is no question that Mercedes used team orders this year, yet it is Ferrari/Seb that are "targets" in here and being criticized for using team orders. Your own list of #1 driver "advantages" certainly can apply to drivers other than Seb Vettel, including Lewis, can it not?


Kimi was 1.5 seconds faster on his in lap than Vettel. Vettel's out lap was slow, Hamilton's out lap was 1.3 seconds quicker than Vettel's. That is how slow Vettel was, he had a broken car and was much slower than everybody else.

Kimi would have, without any doubt taken the lead of the race if he had gone 1 lap longer. For somebody that has been watching racing for what 50 years - you obviously know racing so if you can type "we don't know what went on for sure" is a bit sad really.

There is no explanation for Kimi's strategy other than to protect Vettel and for you to play the "we don't know for sure card" I welcome you to explain the logic to pitting a driver who just set 2 purple sectors and is on course to take the lead.

That answer is in the two posts above yours here, lamo. They maximized points by securing a 1-2 finish as opposed to what might well have been a 1-3, or worse. Is that not the kind of justifications we have seen for some of Merc's "strategy"?

My list of number 1 privileges can and does apply down the grid and I am sure many points in that list have and will increasingly apply to both Hamilton and Vettel. Nobody knows for sure the workings within each team and this wasn't directed purely at Vettel but just to show that team orders is a very small part of being a number 1. Team orders is the only part of that list in the public eye and all the important stuff we do not know about.

I can agree with this last paragraph, but the point is, your post schooling me on what #1 status was not for the purpose of applying it to every driver, it was directed at Ferrari and Seb as part of your defense on the debate arguing Ferrari team orders and Vettel's perceived #1 status, was it not? If I have read that wrong, then I do apologize.
Perhaps that falls into the "we don't know for sure card" too.


;)


Although I replied to you, the post with regards to number 1 status was for the benefit of the discussion and at everybody and more about a general discussion about number 1 status than anything directed at Vettel. It is quite often people think only of number 1 status being about team orders (not you) and I know lots of people read that don't necessarily reply and join the discussion - so that was for the wider picture.

Most of the things on that list we know nothing about and there are probably other little things too like who gets to test when and how many days each driver has to do PR and Sponsors stuff etc etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:10 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No they're not Lauda is saying they need to do it now whilst Wolff is just thinking about it, also I don't understand this PR equal status, Wolff is just trying to be fair to Bottas.


Bottas is number 2 now and will not finish a race directly ahead of Hamilton. He is 41 points behind Hamilton and 38 behind Vettel. Hamilton could DNF the next 2 races and almost certainly still be ahead of Bottas given that one race is Singapore.

Mercedes might not say it publicly but baring a crazy end to the season he is done for the WDC. By crazy end he need 3 DNFs from Hamilton and Vettel each to win this title or at very least 2 for Hamilton and 1 for Vettel if Mercedes is dominant and he has an upsurge in form

I hope you are right.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
Amazing isn't it?

The fact is that Mercedes has beyond question used team orders this year, yet we have two current threads desperately attempting establish Ferrari as THE team of Team Orders and #1 drivers. Of course, the difference is that Merc has justifiable reasons...
;)


I believe people say Vettel is number 1, that is not exclusive to team orders. In fact team orders is a small part of that. Number 1 means;

1) Getting parts earlier if one is available.
2) Getting the better Engines/ Batteries/ etc these things vary by a few BHP.
3) Getting the car developed in the direction to maximise you regardless of your team mates preference.
4) Getting the best engineers and more brain power geared toward you.
5) Getting strategy preference in races, if it is a strategy split you'll get the better one.
6) Getting team orders and little benefits like your team mate giving you a slipstream so you can out qualify him.
7) Getting your team mate to sacrifice his race in part to benefit yours.
8 - Getting the better chassis. For example Chassis 1 does all of pre season testing and loses some rigidity and lap time. The number 1 driver gets the fresh chassis 2 for the first race weekend.

So many little things that add up, team orders is a tiny part of the number 1 and 2 set up. Given all of the above, the number one will rarely need team orders because firstly he is more talented anyway and secondly with all those little advantages above he immediately has a couple of tenths advantage and ahead of the number 2.

I would say that Vettel definitely qualifies with 5 and 7.


Tell me, poker, has Lewis never "qualified" with numbers 5 & 7?

Yes in 2008 and 2009.

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Last edited by pokerman on Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:14 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Btw., pokerman, we just have had that little exchange on Lauda "barking" how he knows what to do after Hungarian GP - go making Lewis No.1., but has no "that power". And I mentioned that he might well have heard such from someone else and is simply echoing what is going on in the team... and look the fun, it turned to be so. Just came across Wolff's statement:

"It's something we have given a lot of thought to over the last couple of weeks,"
"And the answer is we would like to keep our options open,"
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13145 ... rs-rethink

Lauda gave his reasoning how Bottas did not preform well in Spa and that should be the teller already now that he is not a serious WDC candidate really, and hey, Bottas struggling there was also what Wolff spoke about. Such a guy, this Niki ;)

Won't be needed, looks like. Ferrari is falling badly behind.

Yes we know what Lauda wants but it's Wolff that makes the decisions and he clearly is saying that they are still thinking it over.


They both are saying the same, just that Lauda is more vocal about, as usually. And they are "still thinking" (that was between Spa and Monza), meaning - if it needed. It wasn't. Perhaps it won't be.
I have been saying, they will trade the "equal status" PR for the title if the situation would ask for it. Have no doubt.

No they're not Lauda is saying they need to do it now whilst Wolff is just thinking about it, also I don't understand this PR equal status, Wolff is just trying to be fair to Bottas.


poteto potato
They are talking about exactly the same issue of TOs and the need for it, Lauda, as I said, is being more straightforward and vocal about it.

And just see what Wollf stated:

“Ferrari has the luxury of having a driver who is clearly ahead of the other, so from now on we will decide race to race. Let us see after Monza.”
https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/08/31 ... eed-to-do/

Wolff is not "just thinking" of it. They will decide from race to race. From now on, after Monza. You know what that means, don't you?

After Monza means that Hamilton has not been receiving preferential treatment thus far so defeats what argument you was trying to make.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
I know it will be seen as nit picking and hair splitting, but I see a difference between a car being told not to crowd the one infront which it is never going to pass anyway to being told to let the other car pass.

I am not saying there are no team orders at Merc, there are, they have said it. Just that today was not a team orders of the move over sort


IMO the team did have a hand in it. It is confirmed that both Mercedes cars were not running full power settings, but rather conserving those precious parts. For that to happen, both drivers are informed of the decision that both cars will run at lower power settings. For Hamilton, that is confirmation that his lead will not be challenged, and for Bottas, he could not crank it up and give it a go against the race leader.

How I despise team orders. Instead of 20 cars battling it out with anyone close to them, we get these neat processions of makes. Most likely Hamilton would have won the race. But he was handed it on a platter only because he qualified better than Bottas. Bottas was not allowed to race for the win. And I watch racing for the competition, not to see a timed procession.


If they are both running in low power settings, that is the same as them both running in high power settings - fair fight. If Bottas was quicker he would catch up.

Also, qualifying on pole in tricky conditions, 2.5 seconds ahead of your closest rival who messed up half of his flying laps and crucially his final run to end up 6th - I wouldn't call that on a platter. If anything I would say Bottas got 2nd on the platter with the removal of the two Red Bulls in front of him that may have actually been able to beat him or at least put up a much bigger fight than Ocon and Stroll.

He put himself into a good position with a very good performance on Saturday and Bottas overtaking Hamilton to win a GP? Rosberg managed that 0 times. Hamilton has not lost a normal race to his team mate that he lead on the first lap (that he finished) since 2013 in the fast qualifier tyre eating Mercedes.

The ones he has lost since Spa 2013 are;
Spa 2014, collision with Nico
Monaco 2015, pit stop error
Malaysia 2016, engine blow

He also lost Australia 2017 and Malaysia 2015 to Vettel but that is a different to a team mate as you know he can't undercut you or overtake via the pit stops.


The race, you know, what they do on Sunday? That was handed to Hamilton because he did a superb job under difficult circumstances on the previous day (Saturday) in qualifying. I have to straighten things out because you are mixing days.

It was painfully obvious to me, that once Bottas secured second place in the running, he would not be allowed to challenge Hamilton. Yes, his chances to close and pass Hamilton were very low, but (and this is from the perspective of a fan desiring to see competition) he was not allowed the opportunity. Instead Hamilton put it on cruise control, Bottas took station where he would be relatively close but well clear of any dirty air, and that's all that happened.

There is a vast difference between "yea, he probably would not have been able to do it" and "he was not allowed the opportunity".

Mercedes (it took them a few years) finally learned to manage Hamilton and his teammate. During the Rosberg/Hamilton feuding years, either driver would turn up his engine settings in an attempt to attack the other. It got to the ridiculous stage where both drivers were told to turn down their engine settings, neither complied, and they went after each other. And in 2017 where we have witnessed many different drivers and manufacturers in serious trouble with grid penalties, it is perfectly logical for Mercedes do everything possible to conserve their precious resources. In the interests of the team, turning the engines down is sane and logical. From the perspective of fans who paid to attend the race or those watching on TV, they wanted to see competition and instead were cheated by team orders.

Yet in Hungary were Kimi was clearly faster than Vettel but the 2 Ferrari's just held station despite the fact the 2 Mercedes cars were catching them, you gave that a pass?


Actually, I do not give that a pass either. My position on team orders does not change from race to race, it is fixed at "I despise them, we should outlaw team orders".

But to complete the sentence, comparing Hungary and Monza is like comparing apples to oranges. Hungary was very fluid, the outcome was not determined until the last lap. At Monza, once Bottas got into second position, that was it, the order was fixed and the Mercedes cars did not change relative to each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:44 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Actually, I do not give that a pass either. My position on team orders does not change from race to race, it is fixed at "I despise them, we should outlaw team orders".

But to complete the sentence, comparing Hungary and Monza is like comparing apples to oranges. Hungary was very fluid, the outcome was not determined until the last lap. At Monza, once Bottas got into second position, that was it, the order was fixed and the Mercedes cars did not change relative to each other.


Hungary wasn't fluid at all. Once Kimi got called in before he passed Vettel, that was game over. Despite saying over the radio he had more speed. In Monza, even before they cooled off the engines, Bottas never once looked like having the pace to trouble Hamilton, and that right there is the difference. Had Kimi attacked in Hungary, he almost certainly would have won that race. Had Bottas attacked in Monza, it's most doubtful he would have gotten close.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Actually, I do not give that a pass either. My position on team orders does not change from race to race, it is fixed at "I despise them, we should outlaw team orders".

But to complete the sentence, comparing Hungary and Monza is like comparing apples to oranges. Hungary was very fluid, the outcome was not determined until the last lap. At Monza, once Bottas got into second position, that was it, the order was fixed and the Mercedes cars did not change relative to each other.


Hungary wasn't fluid at all. Once Kimi got called in before he passed Vettel, that was game over. Despite saying over the radio he had more speed. In Monza, even before they cooled off the engines, Bottas never once looked like having the pace to trouble Hamilton, and that right there is the difference. Had Kimi attacked in Hungary, he almost certainly would have won that race. Had Bottas attacked in Monza, it's most doubtful he would have gotten close.


I'm not sure what fluid means in relation to pitting a car to prevent it taking the lead of a race.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:53 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
slide wrote:
time for bottas to help lewis now and if he finds himself ahead , let lewis past and if vettel is behind hold him up , how can it be a fair fight if Ferrari do it and merc don't

Except that Ferrari don't do it and Mercedes do.


Amazing isn't it?

The fact is that Mercedes has beyond question used team orders this year, yet we have two current threads desperately attempting establish Ferrari as THE team of Team Orders and #1 drivers. Of course, the difference is that Merc has justifiable reasons...
;)


I believe people say Vettel is number 1, that is not exclusive to team orders. In fact team orders is a small part of that. Number 1 means;

1) Getting parts earlier if one is available.
2) Getting the better Engines/ Batteries/ etc these things vary by a few BHP.
3) Getting the car developed in the direction to maximise you regardless of your team mates preference.
4) Getting the best engineers and more brain power geared toward you.
5) Getting strategy preference in races, if it is a strategy split you'll get the better one.
6) Getting team orders and little benefits like your team mate giving you a slipstream so you can out qualify him.
7) Getting your team mate to sacrifice his race in part to benefit yours.
8 - Getting the better chassis. For example Chassis 1 does all of pre season testing and loses some rigidity and lap time. The number 1 driver gets the fresh chassis 2 for the first race weekend.

So many little things that add up, team orders is a tiny part of the number 1 and 2 set up. Given all of the above, the number one will rarely need team orders because firstly he is more talented anyway and secondly with all those little advantages above he immediately has a couple of tenths advantage and ahead of the number 2.

This was no more evident than in 2005 and 2006 when Alosno was about 0.4-0.6 a lap better than Fisichella. Briatore said, this is not the real gap, "we do not have the resources to run two cars at the same level", "Fisichella is a very good driver but we can not give him what he needs, it is our fault" and he implied at least half the gap was down to more than talent.

I don't know if any of those have happened at Ferrari, and if they have they have been for the benefit of the team and not for for some number one driver.
Regarding 2005 and 2006, so you really not think Ferrari have the resources to provide two equally good cars?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Actually, I do not give that a pass either. My position on team orders does not change from race to race, it is fixed at "I despise them, we should outlaw team orders".

But to complete the sentence, comparing Hungary and Monza is like comparing apples to oranges. Hungary was very fluid, the outcome was not determined until the last lap. At Monza, once Bottas got into second position, that was it, the order was fixed and the Mercedes cars did not change relative to each other.


Hungary wasn't fluid at all. Once Kimi got called in before he passed Vettel, that was game over. Despite saying over the radio he had more speed. In Monza, even before they cooled off the engines, Bottas never once looked like having the pace to trouble Hamilton, and that right there is the difference. Had Kimi attacked in Hungary, he almost certainly would have won that race. Had Bottas attacked in Monza, it's most doubtful he would have gotten close.


You are most likely correct, but I wonder how much of your personal fan bias has crept into that assessment. In both Hungary and Monza the drivers were not turned loose, Raikkonen was forbidden to go after a limping Vettel, and in Monza Bottas was also curtailed. My point is that in both cases, I want to see no more of this team order crap, I want to discover whether one driver can best another on any given day. I agree on the point that Bottas most likely could not have caught and passed Hamilton. But I certainly do not agree that it was impossible. Give them a chance, cut them loose, let us see true competition, and discover who belongs where on the pecking order.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
IMO the team did have a hand in it. It is confirmed that both Mercedes cars were not running full power settings, but rather conserving those precious parts. For that to happen, both drivers are informed of the decision that both cars will run at lower power settings. For Hamilton, that is confirmation that his lead will not be challenged, and for Bottas, he could not crank it up and give it a go against the race leader.

How I despise team orders. Instead of 20 cars battling it out with anyone close to them, we get these neat processions of makes. Most likely Hamilton would have won the race. But he was handed it on a platter only because he qualified better than Bottas. Bottas was not allowed to race for the win. And I watch racing for the competition, not to see a timed procession.


If they are both running in low power settings, that is the same as them both running in high power settings - fair fight. If Bottas was quicker he would catch up.

Also, qualifying on pole in tricky conditions, 2.5 seconds ahead of your closest rival who messed up half of his flying laps and crucially his final run to end up 6th - I wouldn't call that on a platter. If anything I would say Bottas got 2nd on the platter with the removal of the two Red Bulls in front of him that may have actually been able to beat him or at least put up a much bigger fight than Ocon and Stroll.

He put himself into a good position with a very good performance on Saturday and Bottas overtaking Hamilton to win a GP? Rosberg managed that 0 times. Hamilton has not lost a normal race to his team mate that he lead on the first lap (that he finished) since 2013 in the fast qualifier tyre eating Mercedes.

The ones he has lost since Spa 2013 are;
Spa 2014, collision with Nico
Monaco 2015, pit stop error
Malaysia 2016, engine blow

He also lost Australia 2017 and Malaysia 2015 to Vettel but that is a different to a team mate as you know he can't undercut you or overtake via the pit stops.


The race, you know, what they do on Sunday? That was handed to Hamilton because he did a superb job under difficult circumstances on the previous day (Saturday) in qualifying. I have to straighten things out because you are mixing days.

It was painfully obvious to me, that once Bottas secured second place in the running, he would not be allowed to challenge Hamilton. Yes, his chances to close and pass Hamilton were very low, but (and this is from the perspective of a fan desiring to see competition) he was not allowed the opportunity. Instead Hamilton put it on cruise control, Bottas took station where he would be relatively close but well clear of any dirty air, and that's all that happened.

There is a vast difference between "yea, he probably would not have been able to do it" and "he was not allowed the opportunity".

Mercedes (it took them a few years) finally learned to manage Hamilton and his teammate. During the Rosberg/Hamilton feuding years, either driver would turn up his engine settings in an attempt to attack the other. It got to the ridiculous stage where both drivers were told to turn down their engine settings, neither complied, and they went after each other. And in 2017 where we have witnessed many different drivers and manufacturers in serious trouble with grid penalties, it is perfectly logical for Mercedes do everything possible to conserve their precious resources. In the interests of the team, turning the engines down is sane and logical. From the perspective of fans who paid to attend the race or those watching on TV, they wanted to see competition and instead were cheated by team orders.

Yet in Hungary were Kimi was clearly faster than Vettel but the 2 Ferrari's just held station despite the fact the 2 Mercedes cars were catching them, you gave that a pass?


Actually, I do not give that a pass either. My position on team orders does not change from race to race, it is fixed at "I despise them, we should outlaw team orders".

But to complete the sentence, comparing Hungary and Monza is like comparing apples to oranges. Hungary was very fluid, the outcome was not determined until the last lap. At Monza, once Bottas got into second position, that was it, the order was fixed and the Mercedes cars did not change relative to each other.

What was fluid about Hungary when we know for a fact that Kimi was faster than Vettel yet dutifully followed his teammate.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Actually, I do not give that a pass either. My position on team orders does not change from race to race, it is fixed at "I despise them, we should outlaw team orders".

But to complete the sentence, comparing Hungary and Monza is like comparing apples to oranges. Hungary was very fluid, the outcome was not determined until the last lap. At Monza, once Bottas got into second position, that was it, the order was fixed and the Mercedes cars did not change relative to each other.


Hungary wasn't fluid at all. Once Kimi got called in before he passed Vettel, that was game over. Despite saying over the radio he had more speed. In Monza, even before they cooled off the engines, Bottas never once looked like having the pace to trouble Hamilton, and that right there is the difference. Had Kimi attacked in Hungary, he almost certainly would have won that race. Had Bottas attacked in Monza, it's most doubtful he would have gotten close.


You are most likely correct, but I wonder how much of your personal fan bias has crept into that assessment. In both Hungary and Monza the drivers were not turned loose, Raikkonen was forbidden to go after a limping Vettel, and in Monza Bottas was also curtailed. My point is that in both cases, I want to see no more of this team order crap, I want to discover whether one driver can best another on any given day. I agree on the point that Bottas most likely could not have caught and passed Hamilton. But I certainly do not agree that it was impossible. Give them a chance, cut them loose, let us see true competition, and discover who belongs where on the pecking order.

Shame your ideals are not a follow up from Hungary otherwise it perhaps shows a bit of bias from you as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
What was fluid about Hungary when we know for a fact that Kimi was faster than Vettel yet dutifully followed his teammate.


yes, he was. So what? We don't know for certain if he could have passed him, a task easier said than done on that track. And... if he had, then the maximum team points from a 1-2 finish would have been jeopardized, and after all, isn't that the kind of reasoning that you love to apply to team orders examples regarding Lewis?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Actually, I do not give that a pass either. My position on team orders does not change from race to race, it is fixed at "I despise them, we should outlaw team orders".

But to complete the sentence, comparing Hungary and Monza is like comparing apples to oranges. Hungary was very fluid, the outcome was not determined until the last lap. At Monza, once Bottas got into second position, that was it, the order was fixed and the Mercedes cars did not change relative to each other.


Hungary wasn't fluid at all. Once Kimi got called in before he passed Vettel, that was game over. Despite saying over the radio he had more speed. In Monza, even before they cooled off the engines, Bottas never once looked like having the pace to trouble Hamilton, and that right there is the difference. Had Kimi attacked in Hungary, he almost certainly would have won that race. Had Bottas attacked in Monza, it's most doubtful he would have gotten close.


You are most likely correct, but I wonder how much of your personal fan bias has crept into that assessment. In both Hungary and Monza the drivers were not turned loose, Raikkonen was forbidden to go after a limping Vettel, and in Monza Bottas was also curtailed. My point is that in both cases, I want to see no more of this team order crap, I want to discover whether one driver can best another on any given day. I agree on the point that Bottas most likely could not have caught and passed Hamilton. But I certainly do not agree that it was impossible. Give them a chance, cut them loose, let us see true competition, and discover who belongs where on the pecking order.


No need for fan bias in the assesment, although I fully agree with your final sentence.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What was fluid about Hungary when we know for a fact that Kimi was faster than Vettel yet dutifully followed his teammate.


yes, he was. So what? We don't know for certain if he could have passed him, a task easier said than done on that track. And... if he had, then the maximum team points from a 1-2 finish would have been jeopardized, and after all, isn't that the kind of reasoning that you love to apply to team orders examples regarding Lewis?


Had Ferrari left Kimi out for another lap, he would have jumped Vettel in the pits, that isn't really up for dispute at this point. Pretending not to know what probably would have happened had there been no team intervention doesn't really shine the best light on your argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What was fluid about Hungary when we know for a fact that Kimi was faster than Vettel yet dutifully followed his teammate.


yes, he was. So what? We don't know for certain if he could have passed him, a task easier said than done on that track. And... if he had, then the maximum team points from a 1-2 finish would have been jeopardized, and after all, isn't that the kind of reasoning that you love to apply to team orders examples regarding Lewis?


Had Ferrari left Kimi out for another lap, he would have jumped Vettel in the pits, that isn't really up for dispute at this point. Pretending not to know what probably would have happened had there been no team intervention doesn't really shine the best light on your argument.


Fine, take that factor out and say that they did let Kimi get by in the way you describe (team orders by some definitions), there is still the fact that they might well have not gotten the 1-2 finish that all teams who care about the WCC desire... maximum team points... or are we to we believe that 1-2 finishes are only important to other teams, that Ferrari's sole purpose is to up Vettel?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:33 pm 
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lamo wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
lamo wrote:
olly-44 wrote:

I don't think those statistics mean that they'll be mirror for the rest of the season. Unless you believe in karma or fate, anything can happen.

Statistically no one had won back to back races, but Hamilton did yesterday. Statistics don't hold up too much weight otherwise we should all go home now as we can average out the points for the rest of the season. I'm being facetious but you see my point?


I am not suggesting they will be mirrored perfectly, but Bottas has out qualified Hamilton 4/10. That is a high rate, I think it would huge leap in faith to think Hamilton would beat him 7-0 in the last 7 races, it was just 3 races ago Bottas beat him in Hungary, it will happen again I am almost certain of that. It wouldn't surprise me if Lewis has a Monaco type weekend in Singapore.

No driver winning 2 races consecutively is not the same type of statistic as qualifying head to head at all. Qualifying head to head is entirely based on two drivers driving the same car competing against one another. It is a pure fight. A race has so many more variables.

No driver winning 2 races consecutively relies on-
i) the random ordering of the races.
ii) Luck. Hamilton should have already done it in Canada-Baku. Vettel also would have won Spain-Monaco if the SC didn't come out.
iii) At least 4 races have been decided by the timing or occurrence of a SC's (Bahrain, China, Azerbajan, Spain) and possibly a 5th in Spa too.
iv) Its also subject to driver form. Mercedes have managed back to back wins three times this year already.

Qualifying is not subject to variables, the only sessions that have had variables come into play are Monaco (Hamilton getting yellow flags on final run, but Bottas was going to beat him anyway) and Austria where yellow flags meant each driver only got 1 run and Hamilton also had a gearbox change that might have influenced things a bit. Bottas also had a gearbox change in GB but the gap was so big it probably did not change anything. Other than that is a pure fight in Q3 without variables.



Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.


But I do get your point, there is more weight to be given towards Quali stats than random stats. But let me put it out there that Lewis has good form for the back end of the season that I don't see Bottas competiting with.

Since 2014 Hybrid Era:
USA (3 races, 3 wins), Abu Dhabi (3 races, 2 wins, one 2nd), Japan (3 races, 2 wins, one 3rd), Brazil (3 races, 1 win, two 2nds) are all tracks that Hamilton excels at. Now that's 4/7 tracks left.

I definitely grant you that he will struggle in the Merc at Singapore, and that Malaysia will be hard against the Ferrari package...and Mexico is too early to base any stats on but he has got 1st and 2nd there. I would find it hard to believe that Bottas could beat him overall in quali and race trim for them hence my doubting of your original point.


"Ermm yeah" we were discussing qualifying, Bottas out qualified Hamilton by 0.170 in Hungary.

Whilst you say Hamilton has good form in the remaining tracks he had his best form in Hungary. Hamilton out qualified Rosberg 3-0 in Hungary. Button 3-0. Heikki 2-0 and Alonso 1-0. He was 9-0 up in qualifying against his team mate in Hungary. Note that Rosberg got pole in 2014 when Hamilton blew up in Q1. That's now 9-1.

Including finishing place statistics in the hybrid era for Hamilton is also a bit meaningless, 2nd place was last place during 2014-2016. So saying he got two 2nd's in Brazil for example is saying Nico beat him twice in 3 races...

So whilst you say his USA record is good in the hybrid era. Nico out qualified him 2-1 there. AD, Nico out qualified him 2-1. Japan Nico 3-0. Brazil 2-1 to Nico again... On none of the remaining tracks did he out qualify Nico (head to head statistics) in the Hybrid era, except Singapore.

If Hamilton had out qualified Bottas in Hungary I would probably be agreeing with you that he could beat him every time in the remaining races and he would have done it in 6 of the last 7 races and the only time he didn't do it would be Austria when he had the gearbox penalty and no Q2 runs on the qualifying tyre etc. Under that scenario you would think, Hamilton was now on top of the car and at this best most weekends. But Hungary puts enough doubt in my mind to think Bottas will beat him at least once or twice when he has a form dip.



Dude, you are so focused on qualifying now that you think that'll have a strong significance. Even if Rosberg outwyalified Hamilton, lewis still won the race, where you get the points. Isn't that the most vital statistic?!

Also, before the hybrid era, Hamilton had won Abu Dhabi and Japan a few times.
USA and Mexico weren't around then so would be hard to say. But come on, USA is such a strong track for hamilton, you must say?! Race day when it counts?!

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Ennis wrote:
I think, behind closed doors, it's already in place. I don't think they'll acknowledge publicly because then Ferrari have an excuse to openly back Vettel.


Agreed. I dont think anyone could justify a Bottas WDC at this point. He's just not quick enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:55 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:
Dude, you are so focused on qualifying now that you think that'll have a strong significance. Even if Rosberg outwyalified Hamilton, lewis still won the race, where you get the points. Isn't that the most vital statistic?!

Fake news. Rosberg usually won when he qualified ahead, just like Lewis usually did.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:06 am 
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olly-44 wrote:


Dude, you are so focused on qualifying now that you think that'll have a strong significance. Even if Rosberg outwyalified Hamilton, lewis still won the race, where you get the points. Isn't that the most vital statistic?!

Also, before the hybrid era, Hamilton had won Abu Dhabi and Japan a few times.
USA and Mexico weren't around then so would be hard to say. But come on, USA is such a strong track for hamilton, you must say?! Race day when it counts?!


Our entire discussion is about Mercedes using team orders. I said this will only be needed when Bottas qualifies ahead of Hamilton because Hamilton has a superior race pace. This discussion is about qualifying.

Hamilton had never won in Suzuka before the Hybrid era either and its probably his weakest track. He won in 2014 in the wet and muscled past Rosberg in 2015 at turn 1 to win too.

Texas was around pre hybrid too and Hamilton won there in 2012 overtaking Vettel, Texas is a strong Hamilton track.

The Hamilton - Rosberg battle was decided on who lead after turn 1. It was as simple as that, so it wasn't really race day that counted it was who won the race until turn 1 which was largely dependent on qualifying. The car ahead at turn 1 out of those two finished ahead in I think 40 of their last 43 races together (when both finished). The three times that wasn't the case was Monaco 2015 when Hamilton had his pit stop error thing, 2015 at Hungary when Rosberg collided with Ricciardo late on and had to pit and Monaco 2016 where Rosberg let Hamilton through with a team order.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:29 am 
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Exediron wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Dude, you are so focused on qualifying now that you think that'll have a strong significance. Even if Rosberg outwyalified Hamilton, lewis still won the race, where you get the points. Isn't that the most vital statistic?!

Fake news. Rosberg usually won when he qualified ahead, just like Lewis usually did.


Kind of..but not really..

2014-2016

Nico won 13 races from his 26 poles - 50%
Lewis won 20 races from 30 poles - 66%

Pre 2016 and the dodgy starting Mercedes, those figure were Lewis 72% and Nico 39%

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:09 am 
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lamo wrote:
Exediron wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Dude, you are so focused on qualifying now that you think that'll have a strong significance. Even if Rosberg outwyalified Hamilton, lewis still won the race, where you get the points. Isn't that the most vital statistic?!

Fake news. Rosberg usually won when he qualified ahead, just like Lewis usually did.

Kind of..but not really..

2014-2016

Nico won 13 races from his 26 poles - 50%
Lewis won 20 races from 30 poles - 66%

Pre 2016 and the dodgy starting Mercedes, those figure were Lewis 72% and Nico 39%

Okay, so maybe it's closer to 50/50. It's still not accurate to say that 'even if Rosberg out-qualified Hamoilton, Lewis still won'. That would be accurate for someone like Kovelainen, but not Rosberg.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:53 am 
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What a bunch of hypocrites...
Not many years ago we had "teammate's broken gearbox" and "x is faster than you", but now they pretend they want a fair fight... OK :D

Raikkonen is so useless Team Orders would not be needed even if his teammate was Bottas. That's the level we talking about right now.

Two top teams are underperforming for different reasons and none is Mercedes.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:58 am 
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Blake wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
What was fluid about Hungary when we know for a fact that Kimi was faster than Vettel yet dutifully followed his teammate.


yes, he was. So what? We don't know for certain if he could have passed him, a task easier said than done on that track. And... if he had, then the maximum team points from a 1-2 finish would have been jeopardized, and after all, isn't that the kind of reasoning that you love to apply to team orders examples regarding Lewis?


Had Ferrari left Kimi out for another lap, he would have jumped Vettel in the pits, that isn't really up for dispute at this point. Pretending not to know what probably would have happened had there been no team intervention doesn't really shine the best light on your argument.


Fine, take that factor out and say that they did let Kimi get by in the way you describe (team orders by some definitions), there is still the fact that they might well have not gotten the 1-2 finish that all teams who care about the WCC desire... maximum team points... or are we to we believe that 1-2 finishes are only important to other teams, that Ferrari's sole purpose is to up Vettel?


I'm of the opinion that the 1-2 was of much less significance than Vettel being on the top step. If the roles were reversed and Kimi had the problem with his wheel and was holding Vettel up, do you honestly think Ferrari would have made Vettel hold station to obtain the 1-2? Not in this lifetime, and rightly so. The 1-2 was a happy side effect of being able to sit Kimi behind on a track where overtaking is very problematic outside of the pits or if a car has an issue.

I'm not even against this, it makes perfect sense, I just don't know why people are trying to make out it wasn't a team order on any level. Monaco is a bit more cloudy but Vettel still definitely got the strategy that gave him a chance of jumping Kimi rather than giving Kimi the strategy to guarentee he came out ahead of Sebastian. That may well have been just the way it spun out with the speed on the new tyres/traffic but with all the money and computing power behind these strategy calls, you'd like to think that the possibility of what happened occurring the way it did was considered in the decisions made.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:56 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Blake wrote:

Fine, take that factor out and say that they did let Kimi get by in the way you describe (team orders by some definitions), there is still the fact that they might well have not gotten the 1-2 finish that all teams who care about the WCC desire... maximum team points... or are we to we believe that 1-2 finishes are only important to other teams, that Ferrari's sole purpose is to up Vettel?


I'm of the opinion that the 1-2 was of much less significance than Vettel being on the top step. If the roles were reversed and Kimi had the problem with his wheel and was holding Vettel up, do you honestly think Ferrari would have made Vettel hold station to obtain the 1-2? Not in this lifetime, and rightly so. The 1-2 was a happy side effect of being able to sit Kimi behind on a track where overtaking is very problematic outside of the pits or if a car has an issue.
It is certainly your right to think that you know what is/was significant to Ferrari, it is mine to not agree. Ferrari has long had a history of placing high value on the WCC points, and in the days of Enzo, they were often criticized because it was felt that they did not care about the drivers, only that the cars do well. As I understand it, it is still the Constructors points that pay, and I have a difficult time understanding why every action, or as if often the case, lack of action is held up as an example of team orders whether it is or it is not... yet if they had done just the opposite, the same damn people would be screaming Team Orders. To answer your question, no... I do not know if Ferrari would have had Vettel hold station if the roles had been reversed... obviously, Vettel does give them their best chance at the WDC, but I am not really positive how they would have played it at that point. You may think that, but just because you say "not in this lifetime", doesn't mean that Ferrari thinks as you do.

I'm not even against this, it makes perfect sense, I just don't know why people are trying to make out it wasn't a team order on any level. Monaco is a bit more cloudy but Vettel still definitely got the strategy that gave him a chance of jumping Kimi rather than giving Kimi the strategy to guarentee he came out ahead of Sebastian. That may well have been just the way it spun out with the speed on the new tyres/traffic but with all the money and computing power behind these strategy calls, you'd like to think that the possibility of what happened occurring the way it did was considered in the decisions made.
Few if any, are outright saying that it was not a "team order", or denying the possibility of it, but the simple FACT is that we do not know beyond a doubt, only that some, or even many, think it. However, we DO know that Mercedes has used team orders, yet the thread suggests that it is time for them to start using team orders as Ferrari has been using them all along. Lewis has often tried to make an issue of Vettel having the advantage of #1 status and team orders, part of which I suspect is Hamilton playing mind games to try to get under the skin of Seb, and to try to insure that he will get, or continue to get, the advantages of team orders with his own team.

All teams use team orders, and I have long maintained that they have every right, even responsibility to do so... maximize the strategy for the best possible outcome for the good of the team. As a result, I am not upset with Merc using team orders, but find it very hypocritical the way some seemingly ignore their use, or justifying it as doing what is good for the team, while suggesting that Ferrari only uses team orders for the good of Seb Vettel. Why is Mercedes seen as the team with "pure" motives, while Ferrari's are not so. Are they the new team of honor and gentlemen while Ferrari is still the villains? We all know how that worked out a few years ago, don't we. There is a risk in elevating the motives of one team above the others... pedestals have been known to crumble. I will accept that both Ferrari AND Mercedes use team orders, as do the other teams... but I will not accept that Merc only uses team orders for the good of the team while the "red devils" only uses them for the benefit of the driver. On that note, (and the fact that it is 1 AM here), I say good-night.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:55 am 
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lamo wrote:
olly-44 wrote:


Dude, you are so focused on qualifying now that you think that'll have a strong significance. Even if Rosberg outwyalified Hamilton, lewis still won the race, where you get the points. Isn't that the most vital statistic?!

Also, before the hybrid era, Hamilton had won Abu Dhabi and Japan a few times.
USA and Mexico weren't around then so would be hard to say. But come on, USA is such a strong track for hamilton, you must say?! Race day when it counts?!


Our entire discussion is about Mercedes using team orders. I said this will only be needed when Bottas qualifies ahead of Hamilton because Hamilton has a superior race pace. This discussion is about qualifying.

Hamilton had never won in Suzuka before the Hybrid era either and its probably his weakest track. He won in 2014 in the wet and muscled past Rosberg in 2015 at turn 1 to win too.

Texas was around pre hybrid too and Hamilton won there in 2012 overtaking Vettel, Texas is a strong Hamilton track.

The Hamilton - Rosberg battle was decided on who lead after turn 1. It was as simple as that, so it wasn't really race day that counted it was who won the race until turn 1 which was largely dependent on qualifying. The car ahead at turn 1 out of those two finished ahead in I think 40 of their last 43 races together (when both finished). The three times that wasn't the case was Monaco 2015 when Hamilton had his pit stop error thing, 2015 at Hungary when Rosberg collided with Ricciardo late on and had to pit and Monaco 2016 where Rosberg let Hamilton through with a team order.



"Hamilton had never won in Suzuka before the Hybrid era either" - yes he has.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:00 am 
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olly-44 wrote:
"Hamilton had never won in Suzuka before the Hybrid era either" - yes he has.

I don't think he has, unless you mean in a feeder series?


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:09 am 
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olly-44 wrote:
lamo wrote:
olly-44 wrote:


Dude, you are so focused on qualifying now that you think that'll have a strong significance. Even if Rosberg outwyalified Hamilton, lewis still won the race, where you get the points. Isn't that the most vital statistic?!

Also, before the hybrid era, Hamilton had won Abu Dhabi and Japan a few times.
USA and Mexico weren't around then so would be hard to say. But come on, USA is such a strong track for hamilton, you must say?! Race day when it counts?!


Our entire discussion is about Mercedes using team orders. I said this will only be needed when Bottas qualifies ahead of Hamilton because Hamilton has a superior race pace. This discussion is about qualifying.

Hamilton had never won in Suzuka before the Hybrid era either and its probably his weakest track. He won in 2014 in the wet and muscled past Rosberg in 2015 at turn 1 to win too.

Texas was around pre hybrid too and Hamilton won there in 2012 overtaking Vettel, Texas is a strong Hamilton track.

The Hamilton - Rosberg battle was decided on who lead after turn 1. It was as simple as that, so it wasn't really race day that counted it was who won the race until turn 1 which was largely dependent on qualifying. The car ahead at turn 1 out of those two finished ahead in I think 40 of their last 43 races together (when both finished). The three times that wasn't the case was Monaco 2015 when Hamilton had his pit stop error thing, 2015 at Hungary when Rosberg collided with Ricciardo late on and had to pit and Monaco 2016 where Rosberg let Hamilton through with a team order.



"Hamilton had never won in Suzuka before the Hybrid era either" - yes he has.


No he didn't, not in F1 anyway. He won at Fuji in 2007 though.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:46 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:
Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.


Seriously, when are we going to put this to bed? Hamilton gave back the place, because Bottas gave it to him in the first place... if the Merc's couldn't overtake the SLOW Ferrari's there's no reason to believe Bottas couldn't have kept Hamilton behind if he'd wanted to.

I don't get why people think Hamilton had Bottas beaten in Hungary and 'gave away' the points. Clearly track position in Hungary is everything, and Bottas had it. Doesn't matter who was faster, just as it didn't matter that Mansell was faster than Senna in Monaco.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:51 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.


Seriously, when are we going to put this to bed? Hamilton gave back the place, because Bottas gave it to him in the first place... if the Merc's couldn't overtake the SLOW Ferrari's there's no reason to believe Bottas couldn't have kept Hamilton behind if he'd wanted to.

I don't get why people think Hamilton had Bottas beaten in Hungary and 'gave away' the points. Clearly track position in Hungary is everything, and Bottas had it. Doesn't matter who was faster, just as it didn't matter that Mansell was faster than Senna in Monaco.


Hamilton did not beat Bottas in Hungary. That's clear to anyone who watched the race.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:50 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.


Seriously, when are we going to put this to bed? Hamilton gave back the place, because Bottas gave it to him in the first place... if the Merc's couldn't overtake the SLOW Ferrari's there's no reason to believe Bottas couldn't have kept Hamilton behind if he'd wanted to.

I don't get why people think Hamilton had Bottas beaten in Hungary and 'gave away' the points. Clearly track position in Hungary is everything, and Bottas had it. Doesn't matter who was faster, just as it didn't matter that Mansell was faster than Senna in Monaco.

The Ferraris were not slow. Vettel was slow because of an issue with his car and Raikkonen was held back. The Ferraris were fastest at that race...


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:58 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
lamo wrote:
Exediron wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Dude, you are so focused on qualifying now that you think that'll have a strong significance. Even if Rosberg outwyalified Hamilton, lewis still won the race, where you get the points. Isn't that the most vital statistic?!

Fake news. Rosberg usually won when he qualified ahead, just like Lewis usually did.

Kind of..but not really..

2014-2016

Nico won 13 races from his 26 poles - 50%
Lewis won 20 races from 30 poles - 66%

Pre 2016 and the dodgy starting Mercedes, those figure were Lewis 72% and Nico 39%

Okay, so maybe it's closer to 50/50. It's still not accurate to say that 'even if Rosberg out-qualified Hamoilton, Lewis still won'. That would be accurate for someone like Kovelainen, but not Rosberg.


Whilst I agree, Hamiltons rate was quite a bit higher especially in 2014 and 2015. 2016 moved it more toward Nico due to all the poor starts from Lewis.

Hamilton won 10 races of the 26 Nico started on pole - 38%
Rosberg won 6 races of the 30 Lewis stared on pole - 20%

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:14 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
ALESI wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.


Seriously, when are we going to put this to bed? Hamilton gave back the place, because Bottas gave it to him in the first place... if the Merc's couldn't overtake the SLOW Ferrari's there's no reason to believe Bottas couldn't have kept Hamilton behind if he'd wanted to.

I don't get why people think Hamilton had Bottas beaten in Hungary and 'gave away' the points. Clearly track position in Hungary is everything, and Bottas had it. Doesn't matter who was faster, just as it didn't matter that Mansell was faster than Senna in Monaco.


Hamilton did not beat Bottas in Hungary. That's clear to anyone who watched the race.

Umm... Yes he did, fair and square.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:20 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
ALESI wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.


Seriously, when are we going to put this to bed? Hamilton gave back the place, because Bottas gave it to him in the first place... if the Merc's couldn't overtake the SLOW Ferrari's there's no reason to believe Bottas couldn't have kept Hamilton behind if he'd wanted to.

I don't get why people think Hamilton had Bottas beaten in Hungary and 'gave away' the points. Clearly track position in Hungary is everything, and Bottas had it. Doesn't matter who was faster, just as it didn't matter that Mansell was faster than Senna in Monaco.


Hamilton did not beat Bottas in Hungary. That's clear to anyone who watched the race.

Umm... Yes he did, fair and square.


Umm... how? I saw Bottas cross the finish line ahead of Ham. Fair and square.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:30 pm 
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Whoops I read the post the wrong way, sorry I actually agree with it!
:lol: :blush:

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:11 am 
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A classc slip of the tongue from Toto Wolf;

Wolff added: "I don't want to say that one driver is the number 1, because it could affect the motivation of the second ... I mean the other, driver."

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas Team Orders
PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:52 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
ALESI wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Only 3 races ago Bottas beat Hamilton in Hungary...erm yeah. Giving a place back isn't exactly beating him.


Seriously, when are we going to put this to bed? Hamilton gave back the place, because Bottas gave it to him in the first place... if the Merc's couldn't overtake the SLOW Ferrari's there's no reason to believe Bottas couldn't have kept Hamilton behind if he'd wanted to.

I don't get why people think Hamilton had Bottas beaten in Hungary and 'gave away' the points. Clearly track position in Hungary is everything, and Bottas had it. Doesn't matter who was faster, just as it didn't matter that Mansell was faster than Senna in Monaco.

The Ferraris were not slow. Vettel was slow because of an issue with his car and Raikkonen was held back. The Ferraris were fastest at that race...


And yet we heard Hamilton on the radio asking why the Ferraris were so slow!

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