planetf1.com

It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:02 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1568
Lotus49 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


Whilst the move has been inevitable for a whole, I cannot escape from the idea that it seems such a short term view on looking at things. Maybe McLaren are pinning their hopes on simpler engines from 2021 onwards so that they can make their own or attract another manufacturer and become a works team again (unlikely as a prospective new manufacturer will be highly skeptical about that). For me it definitely smells that McLaren are very scared of losing Alonso, sponsors (not that I'm sure there are many high paying ones left) and their top engineers (again are there many left bar prodromou).


They still have a lot of talented engineers but yeah this is about avoiding the brain drain and wanting to be more competitive straight away and getting back some sponsors and trying to build a platform for the next regs.


The wreckage from the Honda disaster is almost incalculable. The time to rebuild has finally arrived.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2880
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


I wonder if parity was a deal breaker for the mercedes and ferrari PU.
Oh well they did what they had to do. I would have been happier with Mercedes pu's but at least they wont be embarrassed anymore every weekend.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:39 am
Posts: 1300
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


I wonder if parity was a deal breaker for the mercedes and ferrari PU.
Oh well they did what they had to do. I would have been happier with Mercedes pu's but at least they wont be embarrassed anymore every weekend.


Hehehe, hold that thought mate.

_________________
Winner of the [Charging Hamilton Trophy] !
Winner of the [Dominant Hamilton Trophy] !

Lewis Hamilton 4 x WDC


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3558
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


I wonder if parity was a deal breaker for the mercedes and ferrari PU.
Oh well they did what they had to do. I would have been happier with Mercedes pu's but at least they wont be embarrassed anymore every weekend.


Could have been yeah. You've got to applaud Renault really, they don't seem to care or feel the need to hold customers back, they didn't need to create yet another hurdle for their works team for the next 3 seasons in the form of McRenault but they didn't bat an eye.

Fair play to them.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 62
Lotus49 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


Whilst the move has been inevitable for a whole, I cannot escape from the idea that it seems such a short term view on looking at things. Maybe McLaren are pinning their hopes on simpler engines from 2021 onwards so that they can make their own or attract another manufacturer and become a works team again (unlikely as a prospective new manufacturer will be highly skeptical about that). For me it definitely smells that McLaren are very scared of losing Alonso, sponsors (not that I'm sure there are many high paying ones left) and their top engineers (again are there many left bar prodromou).


They still have a lot of talented engineers but yeah this is about avoiding the brain drain and wanting to be more competitive straight away and getting back some sponsors and trying to build a platform for the next regs.


Who are these engineers though? Long gone are the days of the well known and established engineers at McLaren it seems these days!!

On a side note, with McLaren also using BP/Castrol as their fuel and lubricant supplier this should also aid the Renault engine next year, however isn't it rumoured that Renault have a closer alliance to them than McLaren?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3558
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


Whilst the move has been inevitable for a whole, I cannot escape from the idea that it seems such a short term view on looking at things. Maybe McLaren are pinning their hopes on simpler engines from 2021 onwards so that they can make their own or attract another manufacturer and become a works team again (unlikely as a prospective new manufacturer will be highly skeptical about that). For me it definitely smells that McLaren are very scared of losing Alonso, sponsors (not that I'm sure there are many high paying ones left) and their top engineers (again are there many left bar prodromou).


They still have a lot of talented engineers but yeah this is about avoiding the brain drain and wanting to be more competitive straight away and getting back some sponsors and trying to build a platform for the next regs.


Who are these engineers though? Long gone are the days of the well known and established engineers at McLaren it seems these days!!

On a side note, with McLaren also using BP/Castrol as their fuel and lubricant supplier this should also aid the Renault engine next year, however isn't it rumoured that Renault have a closer alliance to them than McLaren?


Prod,Morris,Stella and Goss are probably the best known and are all well established.

They do yeah but I don't see how that should be a problem to be honest, I doubt Renault will have a special fuel just for them.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:06 pm
Posts: 377
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
I know that Toro Rosso are breaking their contract with Renault, but it seems odd that they're allowing Sainz to join Renault as part of this deal.


It makes some sense - breaking a contract is expensive, and they're giving up Sainz as part of the payment to Renault.

kleefton wrote:
What I'm saying is that there is nothing that shows it will be a viable option because of Honda's recent history of struggles.


I agree, and that's why McLaren made the switch. It could mean a terrible year for Toro Rosso. But TR has been on sale for a while, and they may be hoping that Honda will turn it into a works team. Meanwhile, Red Bull (the brand) is rumored to want to get out of F1, but they're contracted to remain until 2021. In the meantime, they may want a lower-cost engine like Honda's if it works well enough for TR.

The current engine is apparently not terrible if turned up for one lap (though not great, based on qualifying). The problem is that it then explodes, so they have to run it significantly detuned all the time. They think it's largely due to a single issue, vibrations that didn't show up in single-combustion-chamber models, and if they solve it then it'll get a big boost. I'm skeptical, but it's a nonzero chance.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:20 pm
Posts: 1749
Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


I wonder if parity was a deal breaker for the mercedes and ferrari PU.
Oh well they did what they had to do. I would have been happier with Mercedes pu's but at least they wont be embarrassed anymore every weekend.


Could have been yeah. You've got to applaud Renault really, they don't seem to care or feel the need to hold customers back, they didn't need to create yet another hurdle for their works team for the next 3 seasons in the form of McRenault but they didn't bat an eye.

Fair play to them.

If Renault can deliver an improved engine next year then you have 4 Renault powered drivers in the mix for podiums and wins. If the works team also improves their chassis then it's 6 drivers.

6 Renault powered drivers fighting it out at the sharp end of the grid is ideal from a brand perspective. Mercedes and Ferrari's customers don't have the budget to potentially do what Red Bull and McLaren can, it would make no sense for Renault to hamper them.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9685
Location: Ireland
As an Alonso fan I'm actually happy with this outcome. He will most likely stick around for a couple more years. And maybe next year he can enjoy himself again. He was in good form throughout most of 2016, when Honda made genuine progress, he was making Q3s and fighting for points. I'd like to see that again. He's in the twilight of his career, I'd like to see him go out on a happy note

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3558
GingerFurball wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


I wonder if parity was a deal breaker for the mercedes and ferrari PU.
Oh well they did what they had to do. I would have been happier with Mercedes pu's but at least they wont be embarrassed anymore every weekend.


Could have been yeah. You've got to applaud Renault really, they don't seem to care or feel the need to hold customers back, they didn't need to create yet another hurdle for their works team for the next 3 seasons in the form of McRenault but they didn't bat an eye.

Fair play to them.

If Renault can deliver an improved engine next year then you have 4 Renault powered drivers in the mix for podiums and wins. If the works team also improves their chassis then it's 6 drivers.

6 Renault powered drivers fighting it out at the sharp end of the grid is ideal from a brand perspective. Mercedes and Ferrari's customers don't have the budget to potentially do what Red Bull and McLaren can, it would make no sense for Renault to hamper them.


I see your point but Mercedes and Ferrari didn't think like that and they both shutdown any chance of RB and McLaren getting a customer deal as they're a potential threat rather than a plus branding wise while Renault didn't bat an eye to supplying both so I still think it's worth a bit of praise.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 62
Lotus49 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


Whilst the move has been inevitable for a whole, I cannot escape from the idea that it seems such a short term view on looking at things. Maybe McLaren are pinning their hopes on simpler engines from 2021 onwards so that they can make their own or attract another manufacturer and become a works team again (unlikely as a prospective new manufacturer will be highly skeptical about that). For me it definitely smells that McLaren are very scared of losing Alonso, sponsors (not that I'm sure there are many high paying ones left) and their top engineers (again are there many left bar prodromou).


They still have a lot of talented engineers but yeah this is about avoiding the brain drain and wanting to be more competitive straight away and getting back some sponsors and trying to build a platform for the next regs.


Who are these engineers though? Long gone are the days of the well known and established engineers at McLaren it seems these days!!

On a side note, with McLaren also using BP/Castrol as their fuel and lubricant supplier this should also aid the Renault engine next year, however isn't it rumoured that Renault have a closer alliance to them than McLaren?


Prod,Morris,Stella and Goss are probably the best known and are all well established.

They do yeah but I don't see how that should be a problem to be honest, I doubt Renault will have a special fuel just for them.


Oh fair play mate I didn't know Stella was there.....let's hope after their dud cars over the last few years that's they can follow up from this years car which looks to be a good chassis. Now we really will see how good the chassis next year using the same power unit as red bull. This will either support their theory or highlight a weak chassis.

Regarding the fuel supplier, I just thought surely if the Renault deal is more lucrative surely they would work closer with Renault than McLaren otherwise it would be a waste of money?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 254
Herb Tarlik wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:


Even with that title sponsor, without the money from Honda, there are some tough times ahead financially. Unless they consider they can make this out of prize money. Then probably title sponsor and prize money should be there or there abouts.


Wrong. Zak Brown from McLaren states that they have no need for Honda's money. They are perfectly fine without.

“Fortunately we have extremely committed shareholders that we can make a sporting decision and deal with the economics."

"We’re not financially challenged. We can navigate any financial situation.”

http://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-ca ... a-divorce/


I have seen this comments also, let's hope it's like that.

Will you ever announce that you might end up in financial problems because of a decision ? I am sure not, so his public comments are in line with what he should say.

100 mil is tough to find. It all depends on results I guess. Good results = more money, so yes, they could cover expenses. All in all you just need to see the difference between what you will get from F1 money with what you lose from the Honda deal, and see how much the shareholder has to chip in. If you add better sponsorship, hopefully you're on the same level. If not, you might have a problem.

I trust Zak's approach on financials, as I am sure he will find good deals for the team, and look at areas where Ron was not looking.

So I see it as classical approach to financing ( RON ) vs new age approach to financing ( Zak ). What I have seen in the past is that while new age tends to be quicker and more lucrative, classical approach has more stability to it. So yes, things are changing at Mclaren, it's all about keeping the good base the team has.

I guess the technology part of the company could land more contracts, especially in other areas of business. At this moment I would focus on partnering with Siemens, or that type of company, as their business approach seems to go into areas where Mclaren can bring value for their projects with the technical know how they have.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7774
Good point. I wonder just how much of this involves getting away from the Dennis era?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:47 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:24 am
Posts: 625
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13176 ... or-renault

So being a signed deal and knowing Alonso's luck, I think its time to put money on Honda having power parity with Renault come the end of this season and then to be ahead of them come the first race of 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7774
angrypirate wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131767/mclaren-agrees-deal-to-leave-honda-for-renault

So being a signed deal and knowing Alonso's luck, I think its time to put money on Honda having power parity with Renault come the end of this season and then to be ahead of them come the first race of 2018


As with all the others, there is no actual facts though, not even who wrote it. It does seem a done deal though.
I dont like not having the facts :] we have had so much fake news lately I dont know who to trust


If it is right, Honda will now probably continue at a pace to suit themselves and work to next years engine.

Actually read on another board that Sainz goes to Mclaren to replace Alonso, who is off to renault, but as with all these things, no 'proof'


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7774
More 'news'

https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/231266/ecclestone-mclaren-won-t-be-any-happier-with-renault

Ecclestone said... "The Renault deal is all done. Alonso staying is super news, but I can't see why McLaren will be any happier with Renault than they are with Honda. It wasn't Honda's fault things didn't work out, it was McLaren's. Every day they had a fight about everything, instead of working with them, which was a little bit stupid."

Let the bun fight begin :twisted:


Edit

Also see on same site

RED BULL BUYOUT BY PORSCHE RUMOURS GATHER PACE


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2880
Lotus49 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


I wonder if parity was a deal breaker for the mercedes and ferrari PU.
Oh well they did what they had to do. I would have been happier with Mercedes pu's but at least they wont be embarrassed anymore every weekend.


Could have been yeah. You've got to applaud Renault really, they don't seem to care or feel the need to hold customers back, they didn't need to create yet another hurdle for their works team for the next 3 seasons in the form of McRenault but they didn't bat an eye.

Fair play to them.

If Renault can deliver an improved engine next year then you have 4 Renault powered drivers in the mix for podiums and wins. If the works team also improves their chassis then it's 6 drivers.

6 Renault powered drivers fighting it out at the sharp end of the grid is ideal from a brand perspective. Mercedes and Ferrari's customers don't have the budget to potentially do what Red Bull and McLaren can, it would make no sense for Renault to hamper them.


I see your point but Mercedes and Ferrari didn't think like that and they both shutdown any chance of RB and McLaren getting a customer deal as they're a potential threat rather than a plus branding wise while Renault didn't bat an eye to supplying both so I still think it's worth a bit of praise.


I agree.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2880
ScottR267 wrote:


.....let's hope after their dud cars over the last few years that's they can follow up from this years car which looks to be a good chassis. Now we really will see how good the chassis next year using the same power unit as red bull. This will either support their theory or highlight a weak chassis.



Yeah...there is nowhere to hide now. Mclaren will be compared to what is considered by most to be the best chassis on the grid the last few years. Hopefully they will make their fans proud.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2880
angrypirate wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131767/mclaren-agrees-deal-to-leave-honda-for-renault

So being a signed deal and knowing Alonso's luck, I think its time to put money on Honda having power parity with Renault come the end of this season and then to be ahead of them come the first race of 2018


I would be willing to bet a hefty amount this won't happen. Everything points to Honda being far out of its depth for the foreseeable future. The struggles will continue at TR-Redbull for sure. Honda seems to be using this F1 project as a learning tool, and it looks like they still have a lot to learn before becoming remotely competitive.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1568
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
ScottR267 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Rencken and Motorsport.com are saying it's done. 3yr deal with Renault with parity on specifications with both Renault and Red Bull.

https://t.co/ijk8p8SHVl


Whilst the move has been inevitable for a whole, I cannot escape from the idea that it seems such a short term view on looking at things. Maybe McLaren are pinning their hopes on simpler engines from 2021 onwards so that they can make their own or attract another manufacturer and become a works team again (unlikely as a prospective new manufacturer will be highly skeptical about that). For me it definitely smells that McLaren are very scared of losing Alonso, sponsors (not that I'm sure there are many high paying ones left) and their top engineers (again are there many left bar prodromou).


They still have a lot of talented engineers but yeah this is about avoiding the brain drain and wanting to be more competitive straight away and getting back some sponsors and trying to build a platform for the next regs.


Who are these engineers though? Long gone are the days of the well known and established engineers at McLaren it seems these days!!

On a side note, with McLaren also using BP/Castrol as their fuel and lubricant supplier this should also aid the Renault engine next year, however isn't it rumoured that Renault have a closer alliance to them than McLaren?


I worked for Castrol for 12 years and there is absolutely no chance that any customer/partner would ever be favored over another. None.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1568
angrypirate wrote:
I think its time to put money on Honda having power parity with Renault come the end of this season and then to be ahead of them come the first race of 2018

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 254
Herb Tarlik wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
I think its time to put money on Honda having power parity with Renault come the end of this season and then to be ahead of them come the first race of 2018

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


we all know and you know as well that now it is "personal" for Honda. What happens next we will see, but the motivation they have now to turn out a decent engine for next year is huge. Wether they make it or not we will see.

My only question is the following : If indeed, absurdly speaking they have a mercedes "like" engine, and absurdly speaking toro rosso is challenging for race wins, it means that money spent chasis wise and aero, are pretty useless.

Seeing the difference between RBR and TR, with the same engine, you would say that the chasis/aero is still important. So the TR car is not really that good, relatively. Considering this, next years car should be more or less on the same level. If they suddenly start winning ( again absurdly speaking ) with a very good Honda engine, where would that leave chasis and aero expenditure. Even more, you would start wondering why there was a big difference between RBR and TR. Even more, it would mean the Renault engine is totally crap, realtively. Of course, not as crap as the Honda.

I for one would not have split with Honda ( for Renault at least ), just because in my opinion I suffered together with Honda for them to learn and try things, which COULD lead to something good. And I am not reaping the benefits. In my view, given a Renault engine as i know it or sticking for another with Honda, i would have done the Honda.

But obviously Mclaren know more, and have taken a different decision.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7774
paul_gmb wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
I think its time to put money on Honda having power parity with Renault come the end of this season and then to be ahead of them come the first race of 2018

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


we all know and you know as well that now it is "personal" for Honda. What happens next we will see, but the motivation they have now to turn out a decent engine for next year is huge. Wether they make it or not we will see.

My only question is the following : If indeed, absurdly speaking they have a mercedes "like" engine, and absurdly speaking toro rosso is challenging for race wins, it means that money spent chasis wise and aero, are pretty useless.

Seeing the difference between RBR and TR, with the same engine, you would say that the chasis/aero is still important. So the TR car is not really that good, relatively. Considering this, next years car should be more or less on the same level. If they suddenly start winning ( again absurdly speaking ) with a very good Honda engine, where would that leave chasis and aero expenditure. Even more, you would start wondering why there was a big difference between RBR and TR. Even more, it would mean the Renault engine is totally crap, realtively. Of course, not as crap as the Honda.

I for one would not have split with Honda ( for Renault at least ), just because in my opinion I suffered together with Honda for them to learn and try things, which COULD lead to something good. And I am not reaping the benefits. In my view, given a Renault engine as i know it or sticking for another with Honda, i would have done the Honda.

But obviously Mclaren know more, and have taken a different decision.


Also, when (or is it still IF?) they mount the Honda in the STR, it gains all the benefits the Mclaren chassis had from it, and no doubt Honda will have far more freedom of design, so I would expect reliability to improve dramatically (OK lets face it, it would have to :twisted: )

I also believe Mclaren have pushed Honda to run things before they were totally ready, so developments would come later, but in a more finished package. I think the STR will be a far better car next year. Wit what we are reading of Red Bull wanting out of F1, it is also likely that there will be a new owner, which could be Honda, or of Honda's choosing. (Porch apparently after the boss team~ so I hope Mclaren were not banking on engines from them)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 592
Location: India
angrypirate wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131767/mclaren-agrees-deal-to-leave-honda-for-renault

So being a signed deal and knowing Alonso's luck, I think its time to put money on Honda having power parity with Renault come the end of this season and then to be ahead of them come the first race of 2018


lol yes. I think next year is going to great in midfield. Renault, Mclaren, Williams, FI, STR and Haas.

_________________
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM9-GK3MeLI


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:36 pm
Posts: 2238
GingerFurball wrote:
ALESI wrote:
mas wrote:
This article boldly claims "Honda is still in Formula One for the time being.The board wanted to switch off the lights by the end of next year, if the engineers should not get the hybrid technology under control. This is probably postponed. With Toro Rosso the Japanese get a more easy-care partner as McLaren. And it will be cheaper for them than the number with the racing team from Woking."

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 52412.html


I never understood why Honda were so gung-ho for getting Alonso and paying him top dollar... they've wasted a fortune when they would have been much better off concentrating on getting the engine right. If they had got it right then drivers would have been clambering for the seat at Macca.


Yeah, it's all Alonso's fault.


:?:

_________________
Shoot999: "And anyone who puts a Y on the end of his name as a nickname should be punched in the face repeatedly."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1568
paul_gmb wrote:

But obviously Mclaren know more, and have taken a different decision.


This line above is everything. McLaren know 1000 times more than any of us could possibly ever know. They have ALL the information to make the proper decision and we have none. Therefore, I strongly believe that they will be making the right decision when it is announced that Honda is being tossed overboard in favor of Renault.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 pm
Posts: 1665
Herb Tarlik wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:

But obviously Mclaren know more, and have taken a different decision.


This line above is everything. McLaren know 1000 times more than any of us could possibly ever know. They have ALL the information to make the proper decision and we have none. Therefore, I strongly believe that they will be making the right decision when it is announced that Honda is being tossed overboard in favor of Renault.


But they also knew 1000 times more than any of us could possibly ever know when they ditched the dominant Mercedes engines for Honda.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23736
moby wrote:
More 'news'

https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/231266/ecclestone-mclaren-won-t-be-any-happier-with-renault

Ecclestone said... "The Renault deal is all done. Alonso staying is super news, but I can't see why McLaren will be any happier with Renault than they are with Honda. It wasn't Honda's fault things didn't work out, it was McLaren's. Every day they had a fight about everything, instead of working with them, which was a little bit stupid."

Let the bun fight begin :twisted:


Edit

Also see on same site

RED BULL BUYOUT BY PORSCHE RUMOURS GATHER PACE

It seems to be well known that Red Bull want to sell and Porsche apparently have shown an interest in joining F1, also DM has always had good ties with VAG, he sponsored Audi in DTM and VW in the WRC, so a Red Bull sponsored Porsche F1 team seems very much a possibility for 2021.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23736
moby wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/131767/mclaren-agrees-deal-to-leave-honda-for-renault

So being a signed deal and knowing Alonso's luck, I think its time to put money on Honda having power parity with Renault come the end of this season and then to be ahead of them come the first race of 2018


As with all the others, there is no actual facts though, not even who wrote it. It does seem a done deal though.
I dont like not having the facts :] we have had so much fake news lately I dont know who to trust


If it is right, Honda will now probably continue at a pace to suit themselves and work to next years engine.

Actually read on another board that Sainz goes to Mclaren to replace Alonso, who is off to renault, but as with all these things, no 'proof'

I think it's almost set in stone that Sainz is going to Renault.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2880
Interesting article going over the split and explaining the reasons mclaren made their decision:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/77 ... torn-apart



"But pre-season testing revealed serious shortcomings. The Honda engine was leaky, unreliable, and less powerful than the old design. It also shook uncontrollably, as the transmission produced terrible vibrations that weren't predicted during winter testing on Honda's Sakura dyno.

"They drew up a three-stage development plan to achieve this by an agreed deadline. The first step was scheduled for May's Spanish Grand Prix, the second for the Canadian GP in June, the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output - was meant to arrive in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix."

"Honda brought updates to each of these races, but they were not sufficient. As its F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa admitted in the FIA press conference at Spa, Honda "failed" in its task, and was now in breach of the development plan agreed with McLaren, opening the door for separation and severance.
Renault said it was open to a partnership with McLaren on the same terms as Red Bull, and McLaren can count on the bonus of already dealing with Renault's fuel and lubricants supplier BP. McLaren also believes it can help Renault technically, having assisted development of certain elements of Honda's energy recovery systems."

"Anticipating that Honda-Ilmor wouldn't succeed in its task, McLaren continued efforts to secure a supply of customer engines from Mercedes. The F1 team was supposedly reticent to agree to this, fearing an Alonso-driven McLaren would be a threat to its own prospects at certain tracks. Nevertheless, feeling it had the support of the Mercedes board, McLaren was confident."

"McLaren estimates that a fully operational Renault engine, with BP fuel and works mapping, would produce 5bhp more than a current customer Mercedes engine, which it reckons is 15kw (20bhp) down on the works engines owing to software mapping it believes Mercedes only makes available for Hamilton and team-mate Valtteri Bottas in qualifying."

"McLaren only wanted results, and wanted them yesterday, which added pressure on Honda and increased the likelihood of mistakes. Honda wanted to be better, but could never progress quickly or competently enough to satisfy McLaren's demands."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1568
Ennis wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:

But obviously Mclaren know more, and have taken a different decision.


This line above is everything. McLaren know 1000 times more than any of us could possibly ever know. They have ALL the information to make the proper decision and we have none. Therefore, I strongly believe that they will be making the right decision when it is announced that Honda is being tossed overboard in favor of Renault.


But they also knew 1000 times more than any of us could possibly ever know when they ditched the dominant Mercedes engines for Honda.


McLaren became a customer Mercedes team, not a works team so they moved onto Honda to keep works status.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 1406
wouldn't it be funny if Honda became the 3rd best engine by the end of 2017, and was whipping the Renault on a regular basis in 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:55 pm
Posts: 1406
all very well but is it an upgrade , or is it more to keep Alonso , cause they don't seem any better , or not much


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7774
slide wrote:
all very well but is it an upgrade , or is it more to keep Alonso , cause they don't seem any better , or not much


I think the 20million is to try to keep Alonso


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:20 pm
Posts: 1749
slide wrote:
wouldn't it be funny if Honda became the 3rd best engine by the end of 2017, and was whipping the Renault on a regular basis in 2018

Marcuss Ericsson winning the 2018 drivers championship for Sauber is probably more likely.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3558
slide wrote:
wouldn't it be funny if Honda became the 3rd best engine by the end of 2017, and was whipping the Renault on a regular basis in 2018


Not particularly.

Thankfully there's as much chance of that as there is Alonso breaking all F1 driver records, including the ones he'd need a time machine for so I think we're safe.

If they were in the same Galaxy we wouldn't be needing this thread. No idea why all of a sudden I'm reading the multiple race winning Renault engine isn't much better than the one that can't currently finish a race and has mustered 11pts in 13 races. 9 of which came in one race, on a chassis track in the 2nd least power dependant track on the calendar in Hungary. While Renault powered Red Bulls were quicker than Ferrari at Monza.

Hulk has triple the points of McHonda on his own. Honda have had more retirements than finishes and have over 270 grid penalties this year with 2 cars. Over 700 grid penalties in two and half seasons with only 2 cars.

You don't walk away from a €700m+ works contract for "not much better".

I wish Honda all the best and I sincerely wanted this partnership to work but come on, they are much further from Renault than Renault are to the top 2, that much is clear and becoming clearer by the day. And more will come out in the wash.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 1:05 pm
Posts: 6721
kleefton wrote:
"McLaren estimates that a fully operational Renault engine, with BP fuel and works mapping, would produce 5bhp more than a current customer Mercedes engine, which it reckons is 15kw (20bhp) down on the works engines owing to software mapping it believes Mercedes only makes available for Hamilton and team-mate Valtteri Bottas in qualifying."

Perhaps I was wrong about a Mercedes customer engine deal being better than a Renault one. Assuming that it's true Renault are giving McLaren and Red Bull parity with the works team.

It will be interesting to see how long the Renault deal runs and whether the next one will be so generous too. Surely the FIA could stop this though by stating that all customer engines must be identical (including mappings etc.) to that of the works team.

They could also do with making it a rule that an upgraded engine must be made available to customers at the same time as the works team. So if for example Mercedes brought an engine upgrade for this race it must also be available should Williams want to run a new engine, not have them wait until the next race. Think we've seen that a few times from manufacturers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2880
Lotus49 wrote:
slide wrote:
wouldn't it be funny if Honda became the 3rd best engine by the end of 2017, and was whipping the Renault on a regular basis in 2018


Not particularly.

Thankfully there's as much chance of that as there is Alonso breaking all F1 driver records, including the ones he'd need a time machine for so I think we're safe.

If they were in the same Galaxy we wouldn't be needing this thread. No idea why all of a sudden I'm reading the multiple race winning Renault engine isn't much better than the one that can't currently finish a race and has mustered 11pts in 13 races. 9 of which came in one race, on a chassis track in the 2nd least power dependant track on the calendar in Hungary. While Renault powered Red Bulls were quicker than Ferrari at Monza.

Hulk has triple the points of McHonda on his own. Honda have had more retirements than finishes and have over 270 grid penalties this year with 2 cars. Over 700 grid penalties in two and half seasons with only 2 cars.

You don't walk away from a €700m+ works contract for "not much better".

I wish Honda all the best and I sincerely wanted this partnership to work but come on, they are much further from Renault than Renault are to the top 2, that much is clear and becoming clearer by the day. And more will come out in the wash.


I thought Herb Talik hacked your account until I read the last paragraph. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2880
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
"McLaren estimates that a fully operational Renault engine, with BP fuel and works mapping, would produce 5bhp more than a current customer Mercedes engine, which it reckons is 15kw (20bhp) down on the works engines owing to software mapping it believes Mercedes only makes available for Hamilton and team-mate Valtteri Bottas in qualifying."

Perhaps I was wrong about a Mercedes customer engine deal being better than a Renault one. Assuming that it's true Renault are giving McLaren and Red Bull parity with the works team.

It will be interesting to see how long the Renault deal runs and whether the next one will be so generous too. Surely the FIA could stop this though by stating that all customer engines must be identical (including mappings etc.) to that of the works team.

They could also do with making it a rule that an upgraded engine must be made available to customers at the same time as the works team. So if for example Mercedes brought an engine upgrade for this race it must also be available should Williams want to run a new engine, not have them wait until the next race. Think we've seen that a few times from manufacturers.


Thing is, parity is supposed to be part of the rules. But somehow Mercedes seems to go around it like it's nothing and nobody seems to complain. Very strange.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 3558
kleefton wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
slide wrote:
wouldn't it be funny if Honda became the 3rd best engine by the end of 2017, and was whipping the Renault on a regular basis in 2018


Not particularly.

Thankfully there's as much chance of that as there is Alonso breaking all F1 driver records, including the ones he'd need a time machine for so I think we're safe.

If they were in the same Galaxy we wouldn't be needing this thread. No idea why all of a sudden I'm reading the multiple race winning Renault engine isn't much better than the one that can't currently finish a race and has mustered 11pts in 13 races. 9 of which came in one race, on a chassis track in the 2nd least power dependant track on the calendar in Hungary. While Renault powered Red Bulls were quicker than Ferrari at Monza.

Hulk has triple the points of McHonda on his own. Honda have had more retirements than finishes and have over 270 grid penalties this year with 2 cars. Over 700 grid penalties in two and half seasons with only 2 cars.

You don't walk away from a €700m+ works contract for "not much better".

I wish Honda all the best and I sincerely wanted this partnership to work but come on, they are much further from Renault than Renault are to the top 2, that much is clear and becoming clearer by the day. And more will come out in the wash.


I thought Herb Talik hacked your account until I read the last paragraph. :lol:


:lol:

Yeah probably a bit harsh but I'm getting the hump reading on a few forums the Renault isn't much better when the team that knows every bit of the deficit just threw away works support and 700m+ to switch to them. Unless Zak,Eric and Mansour have decided to scuttle their own team all of a sudden it's obviously a fair old gap between them in real terms.

That's not to say Honda can't have a great Ferrari2014/15-esque winter and get close to them but some very clever people evidently don't think that's the case based on what they know.

Cheers for summarising that article above, very interesting about the calculations around what would be better, Merc customer or Renault full package. :thumbup:

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], UnlikeUday and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group