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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:15 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
moby wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...


I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars.
Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

Infiniti was placed on the cars several years ago to promote the brand while they & Vettel were winning everything because it is owned by Renault, so I don't think they mind.

My take on Renault choosing to terminate the contract sooner rather than later is that by having the Junior Team run the troublesome Honda Engines, they can trickle down tidbits of info from the Renault unit which could help Honda get things right and if they do a good enough job they'll be able to best Renault. Perhaps a bit of a reach, but if it were me, I'd be weary of that.

As for Porsche buying them, I'm not so sure they'd want to pay out the wazoo for a team when they could easily build their own, utilizing their entire Audi WEC outfit and facilities. Besides, I think VW takes great pride in running its race programs on home soil and buying up Red Bull would mean they'd either have to stay put in the UK or pay to move them to Germany and I think they'll just start fresh.

Apparently the deal with Porsche would be Red Bull having free sponsorship on their cars for the next 3 years or so, so wouldn't actually cost Porsche that much money.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:30 pm 
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moby wrote:
Does anyone know, or have a link etc, what is the difference between (the Illien modified) TAG and the factory Renault?

I would assume mapping and cooling could be Red Bulls own responsibility, but I also seem to remember something about a redesigned head?
Red Bull have their own facilities, have they developed a different engine from the same base, or would they have to be the same as the one accepted by FIA from Renault? It is a different name after all.


No difference as far as I'm aware. First I've heard of any different head or RB running an Illien modified unit and it was Renault bringing the big software upgrade in Baku with new mapping.

I think it's just simply re-branded. Considering how often Red Bull snipe at the reliability this year it would be a bit rich to find out they had been messing around with the Renault PU to the point it was a modified version but still blaming Renault for it's woes.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:11 pm 
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Its not modified at all, just rebadged as a TAG.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:49 pm 
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I was in particular recalling this -

As a result, Red Bull has negotiated a new deal that will see it continue to use the Renault engine, but will run it under the TAG-Heuer RB12 moniker, while the development will be taken in house with assistance from Ilmor.


http://www.crash.net/f1/news/225627/1/red-bull-keeps-renault-rebrands-it-as-tag-heuer

The above is from Crash. but I am sure I read it on repeatable sites too, its just that one came up on google.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:01 pm 
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From what I remember, the TAG partnership came to be via TAG providing the money for Mario Illien to further develop and refine the Renault engine "with" them and the units being allocated to Red Bull would in turn bear the TAG branding. however, I also seem to remember that Illien would continue to develop the engine with Red Bull sort of independently from his work with Renault, however that makes sense. LOL

While the core of the entire power plant is the same, it is my understanding that some of the components vary from the TAG branded units and the Renault branded ones, the ERS being the main difference.

“the Illien development will be the foundation of the Red Bull engine.”

Hughes also makes it clear, the two power units will have “different combustion philosophies AND different ERS systems. Red Bull had already been manufacturing key parts of this system for Renault.”

https://thejudge13.com/2015/12/17/diffe ... -for-2016/

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:09 pm 
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That rubbish thejudge13 site has been banging on for years about RB having secret engine facilities and illien this and illien that. It's all utter baloney, they are not allowed to have a different spec PU to the one that renault homologate at the start of each season, unless of course they want to run a previous PU that was homologated and again they can't modify that either. I said this in another thread, the whole 'TAG' thing is not a loophole they can exploit to modify the PU. You are either a PU manufacturer or PU customer, there is no in between allowed in the current rules.


Last edited by rivf1 on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:12 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
From what I remember, the TAG partnership came to be via TAG providing the money for Mario Illien to further develop and refine the Renault engine "with" them and the units being allocated to Red Bull would in turn bear the TAG branding. however, I also seem to remember that Illien would continue to develop the engine with Red Bull sort of independently from his work with Renault, however that makes sense. LOL

While the core of the entire power plant is the same, it is my understanding that some of the components vary from the TAG branded units and the Renault branded ones, the ERS being the main difference.

“the Illien development will be the foundation of the Red Bull engine.”

Hughes also makes it clear, the two power units will have “different combustion philosophies AND different ERS systems. Red Bull had already been manufacturing key parts of this system for Renault.”

https://thejudge13.com/2015/12/17/diffe ... -for-2016/


A lot of stuff to wade through and think on there. Thanks.
WE still dont know if it is the same though? was the RBR incorporated into the factory Renault? or just side tracked?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:29 pm 
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None of that happened. Illien has been at Honda since April.There's a good reason Horner was calling for engine parity with Renault before the season started, why it was a Renault upgrade in Baku getting the credit and why Red Bull have been blaming Renault for the reliability problems instead of themselves for some Illmor/Tag Heur frankenstein failing all the time.

Illmor worked with Renault on the ICE but they differed on where to go and Renault went with their own totally new concept for 2017 in the end and they split.

It's just a re-badged Renault, no different to the works outfit except fuel and lubricants.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:35 pm 
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illien was only ever involved with the renault for the design of the 2016 ICE (which obviously started in 2015) and they parted ways at the end of 2016. Anyways he was responsible for that new cylinder head design renault introduced in 2016, this was the upgrade dan got in monaco in 2016, renault than decided (or maybe illien told them) that the current PU has reached it's peak level and they redesigned the thing for this season.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:52 am 
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Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
By the time we get to the next major regulations overhaul (2021) there will be no "Red Bull" F1 team...They screwed themselves in 2015 with their public disrespect and attacks against Renault. They forced the manufacturer's hand. Renault were perfectly happy to allow RBR to be their works team and RBR messed that up because they couldn't handle having a year or two where they weren't the best.

They misplayed their hand and they will soon cease to exist as the team that they are. My hope is that RBR and STR end up as Porsche and Honda by 2021. We need more manufacturers.

Nah we need a rule structure that doesn't give the manufacturers so much power and gives independent teams a realistic chance of being successful. And then we need more independent teams!


How, though? I think every sport has left the grass roots the more that money has become involved, and its near impossible for F1 to be something to everyone.

F1 needs to be the most advanced, quickest (around a lap) cars in the world. What chance does an independent team have, under any ruleset, up against a team spending £400million?

F1 did just fine after the mass exodus of manufacturers in 2008/09. But it needed people like Ross Brawn and Peter Sauber - people that were there for the love of racing rather than a corporate PR exercise - to gather whatever was left and go racing

F1 would be better off without teams spending £400million. There would be just as much, if not more, entertainment from a field of Force India, Williams and Haas-level teams battling for the titles


I don't particularly disagree from a racing standpoint. But the reason F1 is F1 is the "pinnacle of motorsport" tag, where are they without that? Bear in mind those teams would still be spending £100m+ a year to challenge for a title, so not like they're suddenly going to get beat by an independent.

It would still be the pinnacle of motorsport. How would that change? Formula E isn't going to be the pinnacle of motorsport in the next 2 years because it now has an abundance of manufacturers. A 2017 Force India is an incredible machine and would be the pinnacle of motorsport if the top 3 teams didn't exist

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:55 am 
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lamo wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
moby wrote:
Jenson's Understeer wrote:
The big shock here is that it is Renault initialising the divorce rather than Red Bull. Which on one hand is very satisfying because with all the criticism Red Bull have dished out, it's great to see Renault dumping RBR. On the other hand, this could be a very bad thing for F1, and the beginning of the end of Red Bull's involvement in F1. Unless Honda get it right in 2018 then you would imagine Ricciardo will leave Red Bull (as he has pretty much said he will if they're not able to fight for the WDC) and you know Verstappen will be doing his best to follow him. With those two gone (or intending to go), a even worse engine than they've got now, and Red Bull's overall interest in remaining in F1 supposedly fading already, seeing them withdraw completely wouldn't be a big surprise.

At which point you've got two teams that require new owners, and the potential for the F1 grid to drop to eight teams. Perhaps the VW group's interest in F1 is substantial enough that they come in with a Porsche team, running Porsche engines for 2021. Perhaps Honda decide to buy the Toro Rosso entry and turn that into a new Honda works team. Perhaps the new engine regulations (combined with the ability to buy a team in the position Red Bull is) entice other possibilities, such as that rumoured China F1 team, a junior team like Dams or Prema (as an aside, it'd be cool if Prema bough Toro Rosso) or entirel new options altogether. But maybe none of those materialise and we lose one or even two F1 teams in one go. A long way to go yet...


I can see it from Renaults side. They were not happy when RBR had their engine, labelled it TAG then put Infinity on the cars.
Add to this what looks like using Renault as a stop gap until either Honda comes good or Porsch agrees to come in and I understand them feeling 'used'

They were not very happy prior to this because RBR publicly called them crap, so the partnership was never on a good footing from day one.

Infiniti was placed on the cars several years ago to promote the brand while they & Vettel were winning everything because it is owned by Renault, so I don't think they mind.

My take on Renault choosing to terminate the contract sooner rather than later is that by having the Junior Team run the troublesome Honda Engines, they can trickle down tidbits of info from the Renault unit which could help Honda get things right and if they do a good enough job they'll be able to best Renault. Perhaps a bit of a reach, but if it were me, I'd be weary of that.

As for Porsche buying them, I'm not so sure they'd want to pay out the wazoo for a team when they could easily build their own, utilizing their entire Audi WEC outfit and facilities. Besides, I think VW takes great pride in running its race programs on home soil and buying up Red Bull would mean they'd either have to stay put in the UK or pay to move them to Germany and I think they'll just start fresh.


You would be amazed at how closely guarded engines are to customer teams, they are removed immediately after the race and taken back then given back at the next race and I believe installed by the suppliers employees for the customers The supplier have about 10 employees permanently embedded into the customers team who deal with nearly all things engine related. The customer obviously knows the numbers for the engine but they are as in the dark as you or to what is going on inside.

Wow I didn't know that

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:43 am 
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mcdo wrote:
It would still be the pinnacle of motorsport. How would that change? Formula E isn't going to be the pinnacle of motorsport in the next 2 years because it now has an abundance of manufacturers. A 2017 Force India is an incredible machine and would be the pinnacle of motorsport if the top 3 teams didn't exist


But what difference does that make, really? It's difficult to get exact spends due to hidden R&D, etc.. but these costs should roughly scale, even if the exact numbers aren't perfect:

Right now you have 3 teams who can afford 3-400m a year (Merc, Ferrari & RBR). Every now and again a season might throw up an outlier who can challenge with them.

You have McLaren who are closer to the 200m a year range, but could be up there in the 3-400m range with the Honda partnership (which is going away).

Then you have Williams, Toro Rosso, Haas, Sauber in that 100-150m range.

What are we making better by narrowing the field from Merc, Ferrari, RBR, McLaren (+potentially Renault as they scale up), to a fight amongst Williams, TR, Haas & Sauber? You'll still have teams who can't afford a rather absurd 150m a year, just making up the numbers behind them. And of the teams that can you'll potentially have 1 or 2 who excel and 1 or 2 who make a complete mess of it. Toss in the reduced R&D investment from the real big guns which the smaller teams get some downstream benefits from, the fact that competitor series could realistically begin to challenge the mantle of Pinnacle of Motorsport, the fact that F1 has a serious long term risk of dying out as road-car automation kicks in...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:01 am 
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Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
It would still be the pinnacle of motorsport. How would that change? Formula E isn't going to be the pinnacle of motorsport in the next 2 years because it now has an abundance of manufacturers. A 2017 Force India is an incredible machine and would be the pinnacle of motorsport if the top 3 teams didn't exist


But what difference does that make, really? It's difficult to get exact spends due to hidden R&D, etc.. but these costs should roughly scale, even if the exact numbers aren't perfect:

Right now you have 3 teams who can afford 3-400m a year (Merc, Ferrari & RBR). Every now and again a season might throw up an outlier who can challenge with them.

You have McLaren who are closer to the 200m a year range, but could be up there in the 3-400m range with the Honda partnership (which is going away).

Then you have Williams, Toro Rosso, Haas, Sauber in that 100-150m range.

What are we making better by narrowing the field from Merc, Ferrari, RBR, McLaren (+potentially Renault as they scale up), to a fight amongst Williams, TR, Haas & Sauber? You'll still have teams who can't afford a rather absurd 150m a year, just making up the numbers behind them. And of the teams that can you'll potentially have 1 or 2 who excel and 1 or 2 who make a complete mess of it. Toss in the reduced R&D investment from the real big guns which the smaller teams get some downstream benefits from, the fact that competitor series could realistically begin to challenge the mantle of Pinnacle of Motorsport, the fact that F1 has a serious long term risk of dying out as road-car automation kicks in...



It is not that simple though. The 3 big teams, only 2 of them have the cost of engine development, so in actual spend power, RBR is probably above them. The mid field teams also do not have to develop their engine, and chose what to but in like gearbox etc.
So cutting them all to say 200m means the manufacturers get to spend less than a mid field team in real money.
There are 'outlines' that components have to fit into and can take considerable time, human and computer, and this is costly. Once they are passed to the customer, this is not a concern, or a cost.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:21 am 
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So Christian Horner has told Sky Sports F1 that there will be an announcement coming soon that is neither Porsche nor Honda, and that "we have a relationship with a car firm". Aston Martin, surely?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:26 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
So Christian Horner has told Sky Sports F1 that there will be an announcement coming soon that is neither Porsche nor Honda, and that "we have a relationship with a car firm". Aston Martin, surely?


Without doubt he was referring to Aston martin. He also pretty much confirmed the sainz to renault on a loan deal.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:41 am 
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Also officially confirmed now McLaren 3 year deal with Renault and TR a multi year deal with Honda.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:45 am 
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Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
It would still be the pinnacle of motorsport. How would that change? Formula E isn't going to be the pinnacle of motorsport in the next 2 years because it now has an abundance of manufacturers. A 2017 Force India is an incredible machine and would be the pinnacle of motorsport if the top 3 teams didn't exist


But what difference does that make, really? It's difficult to get exact spends due to hidden R&D, etc.. but these costs should roughly scale, even if the exact numbers aren't perfect:

Right now you have 3 teams who can afford 3-400m a year (Merc, Ferrari & RBR). Every now and again a season might throw up an outlier who can challenge with them.

You have McLaren who are closer to the 200m a year range, but could be up there in the 3-400m range with the Honda partnership (which is going away).

Then you have Williams, Toro Rosso, Haas, Sauber in that 100-150m range.

What are we making better by narrowing the field from Merc, Ferrari, RBR, McLaren (+potentially Renault as they scale up), to a fight amongst Williams, TR, Haas & Sauber? You'll still have teams who can't afford a rather absurd 150m a year, just making up the numbers behind them. And of the teams that can you'll potentially have 1 or 2 who excel and 1 or 2 who make a complete mess of it. Toss in the reduced R&D investment from the real big guns which the smaller teams get some downstream benefits from, the fact that competitor series could realistically begin to challenge the mantle of Pinnacle of Motorsport, the fact that F1 has a serious long term risk of dying out as road-car automation kicks in...

I'm not sure what the cost argument has to do with it other than it's the manufacturers' fault that it's so damn expensive. I think you've missed the point of my argument - I don't believe F1 needs more manufacturers to come in, hold the sport for ransom while they're in it and then drop it in a moment's notice whenever it suits them. They currently have a stranglehold that F1 would be better off without. Pandering to the likes of Merc and Renault has done F1 little good, even if the V6 hybrids are an amazing technological success

Making the situation worse surely isn't the way to go. If, say, 2 of them left I don't believe the sporting spectacle would be negatively impacted in the medium to long term. The FIA's hand would be forced to redress the balance of power and bring the independent teams back to the fore. The job losses that are incurred when a manufacturer decides to pack up and leave is the biggest negative outcome

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:05 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
It would still be the pinnacle of motorsport. How would that change? Formula E isn't going to be the pinnacle of motorsport in the next 2 years because it now has an abundance of manufacturers. A 2017 Force India is an incredible machine and would be the pinnacle of motorsport if the top 3 teams didn't exist


But what difference does that make, really? It's difficult to get exact spends due to hidden R&D, etc.. but these costs should roughly scale, even if the exact numbers aren't perfect:

Right now you have 3 teams who can afford 3-400m a year (Merc, Ferrari & RBR). Every now and again a season might throw up an outlier who can challenge with them.

You have McLaren who are closer to the 200m a year range, but could be up there in the 3-400m range with the Honda partnership (which is going away).

Then you have Williams, Toro Rosso, Haas, Sauber in that 100-150m range.

What are we making better by narrowing the field from Merc, Ferrari, RBR, McLaren (+potentially Renault as they scale up), to a fight amongst Williams, TR, Haas & Sauber? You'll still have teams who can't afford a rather absurd 150m a year, just making up the numbers behind them. And of the teams that can you'll potentially have 1 or 2 who excel and 1 or 2 who make a complete mess of it. Toss in the reduced R&D investment from the real big guns which the smaller teams get some downstream benefits from, the fact that competitor series could realistically begin to challenge the mantle of Pinnacle of Motorsport, the fact that F1 has a serious long term risk of dying out as road-car automation kicks in...

I'm not sure what the cost argument has to do with it other than it's the manufacturers' fault that it's so damn expensive. I think you've missed the point of my argument - I don't believe F1 needs more manufacturers to come in, hold the sport for ransom while they're in it and then drop it in a moment's notice whenever it suits them. They currently have a stranglehold that F1 would be better off without. Pandering to the likes of Merc and Renault has done F1 little good, even if the V6 hybrids are an amazing technological success

Making the situation worse surely isn't the way to go. If, say, 2 of them left I don't believe the sporting spectacle would be negatively impacted in the medium to long term. The FIA's hand would be forced to redress the balance of power and bring the independent teams back to the fore. The job losses that are incurred when a manufacturer decides to pack up and leave is the biggest negative outcome


But, how? How do we somehow introduce an era where independent teams can be successful, and F1 remains the pinnacle?

Cutting out manufacturers just means we have a different gap (the current midfield become the front-runners, the lower-midfield become the midfield and the independents run around at the back). I don't think it would deliver any added competition on the track, I don't think it would deliver anything other than reduced cost & reduced quality.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
It would still be the pinnacle of motorsport. How would that change? Formula E isn't going to be the pinnacle of motorsport in the next 2 years because it now has an abundance of manufacturers. A 2017 Force India is an incredible machine and would be the pinnacle of motorsport if the top 3 teams didn't exist


But what difference does that make, really? It's difficult to get exact spends due to hidden R&D, etc.. but these costs should roughly scale, even if the exact numbers aren't perfect:

Right now you have 3 teams who can afford 3-400m a year (Merc, Ferrari & RBR). Every now and again a season might throw up an outlier who can challenge with them.

You have McLaren who are closer to the 200m a year range, but could be up there in the 3-400m range with the Honda partnership (which is going away).

Then you have Williams, Toro Rosso, Haas, Sauber in that 100-150m range.

What are we making better by narrowing the field from Merc, Ferrari, RBR, McLaren (+potentially Renault as they scale up), to a fight amongst Williams, TR, Haas & Sauber? You'll still have teams who can't afford a rather absurd 150m a year, just making up the numbers behind them. And of the teams that can you'll potentially have 1 or 2 who excel and 1 or 2 who make a complete mess of it. Toss in the reduced R&D investment from the real big guns which the smaller teams get some downstream benefits from, the fact that competitor series could realistically begin to challenge the mantle of Pinnacle of Motorsport, the fact that F1 has a serious long term risk of dying out as road-car automation kicks in...

I'm not sure what the cost argument has to do with it other than it's the manufacturers' fault that it's so damn expensive. I think you've missed the point of my argument - I don't believe F1 needs more manufacturers to come in, hold the sport for ransom while they're in it and then drop it in a moment's notice whenever it suits them. They currently have a stranglehold that F1 would be better off without. Pandering to the likes of Merc and Renault has done F1 little good, even if the V6 hybrids are an amazing technological success

Making the situation worse surely isn't the way to go. If, say, 2 of them left I don't believe the sporting spectacle would be negatively impacted in the medium to long term. The FIA's hand would be forced to redress the balance of power and bring the independent teams back to the fore. The job losses that are incurred when a manufacturer decides to pack up and leave is the biggest negative outcome


But, how? How do we somehow introduce an era where independent teams can be successful, and F1 remains the pinnacle?

Cutting out manufacturers just means we have a different gap (the current midfield become the front-runners, the lower-midfield become the midfield and the independents run around at the back). I don't think it would deliver any added competition on the track, I don't think it would deliver anything other than reduced cost & reduced quality.

You're agreeing with me - the sporting spectacle wouldn't be impacted

I just have to look back at the late 90s - Williams, McLaren, Jordan, Benetton, Sauber, Arrows, Stewart, Prost, Minardi, Tyrrell and the ever-present Ferrari. Did any of those teams compete in F1 for any other reason except for the love of racing? Benetton perhaps? The various big name engine partners certainly didn't hold F1 by the goolies and dictate the show as they saw fit

Then came the 2000s, the big manufacturers moved in with full operations and before we knew it they were calling the shots or threatening to pull out and bring their millions of dollars with them. And FIA/FOM couldn't be having that! Of course when financial times got tough they did pull out. But F1 survived just fine

Even the backmarker teams today are at the pinnacle of motorsport. "Reduced quality" is a matter of perception. If the top 3 weren't there you wouldn't have any idea how good the 2017 cars could be (with $400m pumped into them). As far as you or anyone else would be concerned a team at the current Force India level would be the pinnacle

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:32 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Ennis wrote:
mcdo wrote:
It would still be the pinnacle of motorsport. How would that change? Formula E isn't going to be the pinnacle of motorsport in the next 2 years because it now has an abundance of manufacturers. A 2017 Force India is an incredible machine and would be the pinnacle of motorsport if the top 3 teams didn't exist


But what difference does that make, really? It's difficult to get exact spends due to hidden R&D, etc.. but these costs should roughly scale, even if the exact numbers aren't perfect:

Right now you have 3 teams who can afford 3-400m a year (Merc, Ferrari & RBR). Every now and again a season might throw up an outlier who can challenge with them.

You have McLaren who are closer to the 200m a year range, but could be up there in the 3-400m range with the Honda partnership (which is going away).

Then you have Williams, Toro Rosso, Haas, Sauber in that 100-150m range.

What are we making better by narrowing the field from Merc, Ferrari, RBR, McLaren (+potentially Renault as they scale up), to a fight amongst Williams, TR, Haas & Sauber? You'll still have teams who can't afford a rather absurd 150m a year, just making up the numbers behind them. And of the teams that can you'll potentially have 1 or 2 who excel and 1 or 2 who make a complete mess of it. Toss in the reduced R&D investment from the real big guns which the smaller teams get some downstream benefits from, the fact that competitor series could realistically begin to challenge the mantle of Pinnacle of Motorsport, the fact that F1 has a serious long term risk of dying out as road-car automation kicks in...

I'm not sure what the cost argument has to do with it other than it's the manufacturers' fault that it's so damn expensive. I think you've missed the point of my argument - I don't believe F1 needs more manufacturers to come in, hold the sport for ransom while they're in it and then drop it in a moment's notice whenever it suits them. They currently have a stranglehold that F1 would be better off without. Pandering to the likes of Merc and Renault has done F1 little good, even if the V6 hybrids are an amazing technological success

Making the situation worse surely isn't the way to go. If, say, 2 of them left I don't believe the sporting spectacle would be negatively impacted in the medium to long term. The FIA's hand would be forced to redress the balance of power and bring the independent teams back to the fore. The job losses that are incurred when a manufacturer decides to pack up and leave is the biggest negative outcome


But, how? How do we somehow introduce an era where independent teams can be successful, and F1 remains the pinnacle?

Cutting out manufacturers just means we have a different gap (the current midfield become the front-runners, the lower-midfield become the midfield and the independents run around at the back). I don't think it would deliver any added competition on the track, I don't think it would deliver anything other than reduced cost & reduced quality.

You're agreeing with me - the sporting spectacle wouldn't be impacted

I just have to look back at the late 90s - Williams, McLaren, Jordan, Benetton, Sauber, Arrows, Stewart, Prost, Minardi, Tyrrell and the ever-present Ferrari. Did any of those teams compete in F1 for any other reason except for the love of racing? Benetton perhaps? The various big name engine partners certainly didn't hold F1 by the goolies and dictate the show as they saw fit

Then came the 2000s, the big manufacturers moved in with full operations and before we knew it they were calling the shots or threatening to pull out and bring their millions of dollars with them. And FIA/FOM couldn't be having that! Of course when financial times got tough they did pull out. But F1 survived just fine

Even the backmarker teams today are at the pinnacle of motorsport. "Reduced quality" is a matter of perception. If the top 3 weren't there you wouldn't have any idea how good the 2017 cars could be (with $400m pumped into them). As far as you or anyone else would be concerned a team at the current Force India level would be the pinnacle


I don't disagree. But for change I want better, and I'm not seeing anything better. Really the alternative is "perceived to be the same, but actually worse".


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:13 pm 
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There are more rumors than facts swirling around presently. The only hard facts I have are 1) Porsche are exploring becoming a Formula One engine manufacturer. No more, no less, right now it is only an engineering exercise. http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/358003/porsche-to-work-on-possible-formula-1-engine/ 2) Renault are in the process of dropping Red Bull and picking up McLaren.

I just picked up this article http://www.racer.com/f1/item/144161-renault-not-a-short-term-fix-mclaren and both McLaren and Renault are talking long term. The major fly in the ointment is that any major changes will not come until 2021, and no one has any idea what those changes will be. It can be assumed that all parties (Liberty, FIA, engine suppliers) have a good idea which way the wind is blowing, and have a rough idea on what kind of power until to plan for in 2021.

It is painfully obvious that McLaren need a respectable power unit. Hopefully 2018 will be better than 2017, and 2021 is when they hope to be in a position to compete for titles. That definitely does not fit into Alonso's career goals. IMO he is foolish to stick with this lame duck team with a lame horse engine.

From the sounds coming from Renault, they are talking a lot about how they are much more an engine manufacturer than a works team. This leads me to believe that the parent company will pull the plug on the works Renault team, and get back to just one chore, supplying engines. Most likely, they also desire a team with more respect than Red Bull. Presently Renault have now obtained the services of two quality drivers, Hulkenberg and Sainz. If the team can not produce decent results in 2018, it will all be on the team, they can not use drivers as an excuse. One last chance, produce or the team is scrapped.

Personally I believe all of this is long term planning, for 2021. By then the Renault works team will be sold or dissolved, and McLaren will be the official works team for Renault engines.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Sainz confirmed to renault

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/9/sainz-to-join-renault--on-loan--in-2018.html

Honda & toro rosso switch engine suppliers
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2017/9/renault-power-for-2018-mclaren--honda-switch-to-toro-rosso.html

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:

Man lands on moon

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:51 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:


Almost had a nasty incident with a jumping cow too :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:37 am 
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The silly season next year is going to be fun. Unless Honda magically come good next year, I can't see either Ricciardo or Verstappen wanting to stay with Red Bull. Which means it's likely both Kimi and Bottas will be packing their bags...

But, knowing McLaren's luck, the Honda PU will be the class of the field next year :]


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:43 am 
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Read an article this morning saying Alonso was stringing Mclaren out with his signing to make them sweat (and cough up) and wondered if maybe they will reconsider if the need him and sign someone else and he will be looking for a drive. Imagine the scramble then :]


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:46 am 
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moby wrote:
Read an article this morning saying Alonso was stringing Mclaren out with his signing to make them sweat (and cough up) and wondered if maybe they will reconsider if the need him and sign someone else and he will be looking for a drive. Imagine the scramble then :]


Where is he going to go? It's not like Fred has a lot of options.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:55 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Read an article this morning saying Alonso was stringing Mclaren out with his signing to make them sweat (and cough up) and wondered if maybe they will reconsider if the need him and sign someone else and he will be looking for a drive. Imagine the scramble then :]


Where is he going to go? It's not like Fred has a lot of options.


Depends on what 'bargain' he makes.

Just posted on the other thread about it. There are options, especially when you remember who his crim... erm manager is


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:20 am 
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moby wrote:
Read an article this morning saying Alonso was stringing Mclaren out with his signing to make them sweat (and cough up) and wondered if maybe they will reconsider if the need him and sign someone else and he will be looking for a drive. Imagine the scramble then :]

This theory falls flat because McLaren would have to voluntarily downgrade their driver line up.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:51 am 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Read an article this morning saying Alonso was stringing Mclaren out with his signing to make them sweat (and cough up) and wondered if maybe they will reconsider if the need him and sign someone else and he will be looking for a drive. Imagine the scramble then :]


Where is he going to go? It's not like Fred has a lot of options.

He has a firm offer from Williams. And that's about it

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:10 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
moby wrote:
Read an article this morning saying Alonso was stringing Mclaren out with his signing to make them sweat (and cough up) and wondered if maybe they will reconsider if the need him and sign someone else and he will be looking for a drive. Imagine the scramble then :]

This theory falls flat because McLaren would have to voluntarily downgrade their driver line up.


They took a big leap with the engine. There is a point where you have to make a jump. There is no doubt Alonso is one of the very best drivers, but if I ran a team I would never take him. Gain v pain


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
There are more rumors than facts swirling around presently. The only hard facts I have are 1) Porsche are exploring becoming a Formula One engine manufacturer. No more, no less, right now it is only an engineering exercise. http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/358003/porsche-to-work-on-possible-formula-1-engine/ 2) Renault are in the process of dropping Red Bull and picking up McLaren.


McLaren-Renault partnership makes a lot of sense at this time. A very good chassis and a decent engine can make them very competitive. There should be a lot of positivity from McLaren about Renault's performance, unlike the criticism that the French manufacturer got from RBR, who always bemoaned a power deficit despite winning a lot of races and titles with those engines. The only thing that I would be concerned about is that the deal happened quite late in the year so there won't be much time to design the next year's car around a different engine. That may or may not be a problem though.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:33 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
There are more rumors than facts swirling around presently. The only hard facts I have are 1) Porsche are exploring becoming a Formula One engine manufacturer. No more, no less, right now it is only an engineering exercise. http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/358003/porsche-to-work-on-possible-formula-1-engine/ 2) Renault are in the process of dropping Red Bull and picking up McLaren.


McLaren-Renault partnership makes a lot of sense at this time. A very good chassis and a decent engine can make them very competitive. There should be a lot of positivity from McLaren about Renault's performance, unlike the criticism that the French manufacturer got from RBR, who always bemoaned a power deficit despite winning a lot of races and titles with those engines. The only thing that I would be concerned about is that the deal happened quite late in the year so there won't be much time to design the next year's car around a different engine. That may or may not be a problem though.


What is this Renault Performance you speak of?


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