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Whose fault is it anyway?
Vettel 60%  60%  [ 88 ]
Verstappen 10%  10%  [ 15 ]
Raikkonen 4%  4%  [ 6 ]
Racing Incident 25%  25%  [ 37 ]
Total votes : 146
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:15 pm 
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A picture speaks louder than a 1000 words.

Image
Source - http://www.autosport.com

A video also to help with the decision:


Vettel did the obvious - sway in the way of the 2nd placed car. What really was unexpected was Raikkonens mega start which enabled him to get side by side to Verstappen. The rain spray surely added fuel to the fire by reducing visibility for Raikkonen to see Vettel swerving in Verstappen's way.

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Last edited by UnlikeUday on Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:19 pm 
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I guess you could say a racing incident but Vettel was the reason for the incident


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Vettel has been notorious for chopping other drivers at the start. It's one of the few times he got punished for his shet driving.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Racing incident for me.
Vettels chop caused the contact but it's a normal way to defend at the start.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Racing incident, Vettel at fault but I wouldn't have dealt out a penalty for it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:22 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Racing incident, Vettel at fault but I wouldn't have dealt out a penalty for it.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Mainly Vettel because he has not learned anything about other incidents he has had at the start when he has just swept across the track and been caught out. If Max wasn't there then Vettel would have hit Kimi.

After watching Kimi's on board though you can see him pull to the right slightly and he did know exactly where Vettel and Max were so I don't now what he expected to happen when he did that.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:27 pm 
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I think it was a desperate move by Vettel, seeing that he was in danger of losing the lead. He obviously didn't realise Raikkonen was there and I don't think he intended to squeeze Verstappen against the wall. But I remember him doing similar manoeuvres in the past. For example to Button in Japan one year. It's very dangerous to do such a thing at the start of a GP when cars are in such close proximity.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Racing incident for me.
Vettels chop caused the contact but it's a normal way to defend at the start.


Only drivers with spatial awareness should be defending like that at the start. Vettel doesn't have it, as proven time and again.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Any blame goes to Vettel, but no further action necessary I think.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:39 pm 
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It was Vettel's fault more than anyone else's. It's the risk you always take when chopping across the track like that at the start. Not a heinous crime by any means though as it's a relatively common manoeuvre and nothing would have come of it had Raikkonen not made such a superb start. Any punishment would be very unfair if you ask me.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:41 pm 
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I just watched it several times on slow motion. Vettel just torpedoes like a mad man towards Max, who slightly tries to go left to avoid obvious incoming contact, in the same moment, Kimi moves in a straight line but at that moment clips slightly to the right himself, Vettel and Kimi just squeeze Max between them and Max's and Kimi's wheels hit and everything goes havoc from there.
Though Vettel was not the first to hit into something he is the cause of this crash by a maneuver worthy of a penalty. By no means this is a driving incident, because Vettel absolutely recklessly and on purpose squeezed Max into Kimi cutting him like that across the track.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:41 pm 
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It's both a racing incident and Vettel's fault. His initial swerve is the catalyst for the whole thing. Standard fare at T1 on L1 but this time he paid the price (and perhaps in the long run, the ultimate price) for his aggressiveness. I wouldn't be handing any penalties out for it though, it can happen like that at T1 in the dry on a hot summers day, let alone in the rain on a green wet track at night.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Vettel's fault, clearly.

Since he is a repeat offender, a penalty would be possible - but since he is a championship contender, there won't be any.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Just playing devils advocate (since I think, it was a racing incident). But on the picture Verstappen is clearly "behind" both the Ferraris. He could have backed out easily which would have avoided the incident, but was as reluctant as the other two to give up his position although it was already lost.

Nevertheless. I think Vettels chop started the mess, but they all chop at the start. Perhaps time to think about that move for all of them.


Last edited by zaar on Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:45 pm 
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I think Verstappen was veering off into Kimi regardless of what Vettel was doing although the latter did not help by closing off the space at the front. Verstappen just did not brake in a straight line when it obvious Vettel was going to chop him and Kimi was alongside and pulling ahead.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:48 pm 
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zaar wrote:
Just playing devils advocate (since I think, it was a racing incident). But on the picture Verstappen is clearly "behind" both the Ferraris. He could have backed out easily which would have avoided the incident, but was as reluctant as the other two to give up his position although it was already lost.


I think you need to watch it. Kimi was coming past quickly. There was no time for Verstappen to back out. Especially as he would have to check his mirrors first to make sure he didn't have somebody directly behind him.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:52 pm 
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all on boards show kimi straight , max straight , and vettel veering left ........?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:56 pm 
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The photo in the OP show only Kimi tracking straight. Sure Vettel has the most angle but Max is also not tracking straight and might have took that angle anyway without Vettel in front of him.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Sky have tweeted there will be no further action by the stewards, which I think is the direct decision, although I voted for Vettel as it was clearly his fault, just a racing incident that was his fault as opposed to a no fault racing incident.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Vettel fault. Kimi had a great getaway which ironically caused both Ferrari to retire in lap1. It could have been 1-2 like Monaco and Hungary. I also think MV should have backed off as both Ferrari were ahead and converging but I guess it happened too quickly

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Vettel's fault, but a racing incident.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:01 pm 
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zaar wrote:
Just playing devils advocate (since I think, it was a racing incident). But on the picture Verstappen is clearly "behind" both the Ferraris. He could have backed out easily which would have avoided the incident, but was as reluctant as the other two to give up his position although it was already lost.

Nevertheless. I think Vettels chop started the mess, but they all chop at the start. Perhaps time to think about that move for all of them.


Verstappen said he tried to brake a little, but something to do with rear tires causing him to not brake much harder.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Once all 3 of the protagonists retired there was never going to be any further penalty regardless of how it went down, retiring from the race alone is already a vastly more damaging penalty than the stewards would have been able to dish out. Going from most likely retaking the lead in the championship to losing a full race win (a huge swing) is a massive blow.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:06 pm 
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No penalty for the 1st lap incident:
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/358537/

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:07 pm 
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And where are these people who said it's 100% Vettels fault and that he will be penalised? https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... nt-954618/

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:08 pm 
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If I need to put a blame it would be 65% Vettel (chop), 30% Verstappen (probably could have backed off a bit earlier) and 5% of Kimi (maybe, just maybe, he could have gone a little bit more left but probably did not see "this" coming). Ultimately, it will be probably deemed as a Racing Incident and probably rightly so. Most drivers do chop across after a poor start. But even if the stewards would say that this deserves a penalty for VET, I highly doubt any will be given, since Vettel is still Hamilton's closest rival in the title race. Politics will take part.

Anyway, Vettel did pay the price. He also forgot, that VER generally had nothing to lose and all to gain (race victory). Trying to hold him off desperately cost him in the end.

EDIT: And no further action indeed...

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Last edited by Michael_f1 on Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:08 pm 
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zaar wrote:
Just playing devils advocate (since I think, it was a racing incident). But on the picture Verstappen is clearly "behind" both the Ferraris. He could have backed out easily which would have avoided the incident, but was as reluctant as the other two to give up his position although it was already lost.

Nevertheless. I think Vettels chop started the mess, but they all chop at the start. Perhaps time to think about that move for all of them.

This is were stills don't always tell the full picture, at that point Verstappen had already started to back out of it, he had started to brake and turned left to avoid Vettel's car.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:10 pm 
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mas wrote:
The photo in the OP show only Kimi tracking straight. Sure Vettel has the most angle but Max is also not tracking straight and might have took that angle anyway without Vettel in front of him.

Verstappen had to turn left to avoid Vettel's car.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:11 pm 
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We all know who created the domino effect. It's a racing incident because it's the start.

I've no sympathy for Ferrari nor Vettel over this accident. Serious dent in his championship. Now he has to hope Lewis has a DNF and he wins a race.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
We all know who created the domino effect. It's a racing incident because it's the start.

I've no sympathy for Ferrari nor Vettel over this accident. Serious dent in his championship. Now he has to hope Lewis has a DNF and he wins a race.


Yeah. Vettel really needed to win this race. It will level things if Hamilton has a DNF but could then make things a lot worse if Vettel has another DNF due to some component failure.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:21 pm 
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Reminds me alot of the start of the German GP in 2003. To remind everyone:



Vettel = R Schumacher
Rubens = Max
Kimi = Kimi

In that incident, R Schumacher was deemed guilty and took a penalty.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:28 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Reminds me alot of the start of the German GP in 2003. To remind everyone:



Vettel = R Schumacher
Rubens = Max
Kimi = Kimi

In that incident, R Schumacher was deemed guilty and took a penalty.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:42 pm 
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Not a smart move from Vettel. He is not racing Max in the championship, and the line he took was not an optimal racing line, by coming over to block Max, even if there was no contact he was leaving the door open for Hamilton and Ricardo. Plus everyone should know by now that Max is never going to yield to anyone, so if you tangle with him there is a pretty good chance it will end in tears. It was a pointless move, maximum risk for minimal to no reward.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Another minor detail, but Max didn't seem to start in a straight line. If he had, Kimi probably wouldn't have got alongside even with the rocket start.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:56 pm 
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Vettel's fault but a racing incident and losing 25p to Hamilton is enough of a penalty.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:05 pm 
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mas wrote:
I think Verstappen was veering off into Kimi regardless of what Vettel was doing although the latter did not help by closing off the space at the front. Verstappen just did not brake in a straight line when it obvious Vettel was going to chop him and Kimi was alongside and pulling ahead.

:thumbup:
In the overhead shot you could clearly see Verstappen was going to the left toward Kimi before Vettel was ultra close, maybe if the gap was closing he should have thought about backing off and dropping into 3rd, but that would have been the sensible move.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Long time lurker, first time posting.

Hectic start to the race today and can't help feeling that Vettel will be kicking himself as he is the biggest loser today handing 25 points to Hamilton which could be costly.

Firstly in my opinion, it was a good call to hold a proper start and not start behind the safety car. With the front 6 starting on inters, no collisions were actually caused by the conditions.

Secondly, it all happened so quickly that looking at pictures and trying to apportion blame is almost meaningless, especially when not factoring in reaction time, etc. Kimi got off the line faster that the front two and did nothing wrong as he kept a straight line throughout the incident.

Verstappen has stated he was already backing out when the contact was made as it was clear he was going to be squeezed by both Ferrari's. He too seemingly tried to hold his line.

I feel Vettel could be apportioned the majority of the blame if any has to be dished out. Of course he is entitled to cut across at the start, as is done by the lead driver all the time. However when doing so, he has to accept the risk that it brings in doing so. He should really have factored in the slippery braking conditions and the possibility of the cars behind getting better start and passing both himself and Verstappen from either side. Veering to one side of the track to defend, especially in the damp slippery conditions was not the smartest move.

With all that said, I am content that the stewards deemed it a racing accident. It's punishment enough that all 3 drivers didn't make it past the end of lap one. That is punishment enough as others have stated upthread. Big swing in momentum in the championship battle.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:29 pm 
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I would like to go in a different direction with this. It could be a divine intervention by the gods to make way for the chosen one(Lewis obviously) at the front. :)

Seriously though, there's no question Vettel is the main culprit. Although it did look like Kimi went to the right a bit as well. I just saw the start and then I had to leave, missing the race, so I spent all day condemning Max, obviously assuming he was to blame.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:36 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Reminds me alot of the start of the German GP in 2003. To remind everyone:



Vettel = R Schumacher
Rubens = Max
Kimi = Kimi

In that incident, R Schumacher was deemed guilty and took a penalty.

At 1:05, who is that man in white?

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