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Whose fault is it anyway?
Vettel 60%  60%  [ 90 ]
Verstappen 11%  11%  [ 16 ]
Raikkonen 4%  4%  [ 6 ]
Racing Incident 25%  25%  [ 37 ]
Total votes : 149
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If You swap Vettel and Verstappen almost everybody would be ripping into Verstappen's reckless driving.

it's a claim that can never be substantiated, I'm afraid. I'm equally adamant that if Kimi hadn't been there no one would have a single negative thing to say about Vettel's move


The only thing I don't understand is why he left Hamilton with such a clean run at the corner when it was clear he needed to finish in front of Hamilton.

This was based on the discussion at the time which was because this was the last circuit on the fixture list at which Ferrari would have the upper hand. This seems to have changed now as I've read elsewhere that Ferrari now have the better run in to the end of the season. Have to say I can't wait for Malaysia.

I think that's an obvious one. Hamilton was too far behind him for Vettel to do anything about him, but Max was the threat for the lead.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:37 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
I don't think Vettel was reckless, but I think he should have hedged his bets a bit better, and i'm sure if he could do it all over he would think twice about that lurch to the left. Not because of the outcome... sometimes you make the right move, and s*** happens, but in this case, the risk surely far outweighed the potential gain?

This is where I stand on it too. There were so many unknown (mostly risky) factors e.g. lining up beside Max, the rain under the lights, the different wet tyre choices, etc. The almost only dead certainty was if he got through Turn 1 unscathed Hamilton was going to be behind

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:11 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
He tried to, possibly only once he became aware of the driver on his left. (I wonder whether HD footage would help, but I don't have it, so...)

Why would he lift before?
Because of his contradictory (to an extent) statements, this remains up in the air, but if he really saw it coming, then he should have lifted earlier, to avoid being trapped in a closing gap. His only chance of making it through the first corner depended on him having better situational awareness than he claimed to have had.


Lotus49 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Correct, it wasn't his fault Seb had a poor start. His own poor start was hardly better, which of course was his fault. I would argue that the chop is precisely used when a driver hasn't cleared his attacker. The intention there is intimidation, which is why I loathe it.
It was indeed not his fault that Räikkönen had the perfect start, but it was his fault that he opened the door so wide that he made Räikkönen's job so much easier. His intention to go right towards Vettel was his fault, of course.

It's used with an increased risk if you haven't cleared the car though and Max's own start wasn't that poor, he wouldn't have had his front wheels alongside Seb's rear if it was and there's no need to cover his lefthand side. Unfortunately Seb had the going right route blocked off but continued to move across and squeeze him anyway and Kimi's sudden presence on the left blocked that route which left him squarely stuck in the middle of an ever closing gap thanks to the Ferrari drivers. Slamming on your brakes isn't an option, lifting completely also is more dangerous in those conditions with the retardation of the cars so he lifted as much as he could and tried to avoid Seb who was still closing. What did Kimi and Seb do to avoid the contact?
Let's not forget why he was in a closing gap; because he chose to be. Opening the door to the left, and moving right to try to cut off Vettel on the right. It was of his own making. Which means that the person best placed to get out of that situation was none other than he himself.
Looking at how the accident happened, I don't believe slamming on the brakes was needed, and I agree with you it would have caused problems for those a bit further back. But there are other ways to use the brakes than just slamming them on.

I will repeat that I'm not sure when and to what extent Max lifted. But that was clearly not good enough to get himself out of the pincer he had created.

Lotus49 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Did you think it through? How much better was it to have the accident?

Well seeing as he's got the least options of all involved to avoid it, I find it strange to pin any blame on him. He wasn't trying to put himself into an ever closing gap, he was already there and he can't turn into a ghost car but the Ferrari drivers were still closing it. I can't see what else Kimi can do really, he has to go right eventually to take the corner but Seb could have done something obviously different so while I don't think it was a ridiculously dangerous move that needed a penalty, it's a pretty common tactic after all whether you like it or not, I think his actions caused the incident so I have to blame him.

Max and Kimi don't seem to do much wrong at all.
I agree that Vettel could have done something differently, but since it was Verstappen who created the pincer in the first place, he should not only have reacted sooner, he should now be thinking about the way he goes racing. There's a reason why he has so many incidents, and its not just making a reputation for himself.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:44 pm 
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If Verstappen had bailed out a second earlier would Vettel have gone all the way into Kimi?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:11 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I don't think Vettel was reckless, but I think he should have hedged his bets a bit better, and i'm sure if he could do it all over he would think twice about that lurch to the left. Not because of the outcome... sometimes you make the right move, and s*** happens, but in this case, the risk surely far outweighed the potential gain?

This is where I stand on it too. There were so many unknown (mostly risky) factors e.g. lining up beside Max, the rain under the lights, the different wet tyre choices, etc. The almost only dead certainty was if he got through Turn 1 unscathed Hamilton was going to be behind

Not sure if I understand you right - are you talking about Vettel coming out unscathed and Max and Kimi still clashing? Because otherwise I don't think Hamilton would have emerged ahead of either. Kimi got a better start than him - he got arguably the best start of all - so would have been ahead and, while Hamilton got a better start than Ricciardo, it's doubtful in my mind that he would have leapfrogged Max.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If Verstappen had bailed out a second earlier would Vettel have gone all the way into Kimi?

Doubtful. No reason to think that.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Because of his contradictory (to an extent) statements, this remains up in the air, but if he really saw it coming, then he should have lifted earlier, to avoid being trapped in a closing gap. His only chance of making it through the first corner depended on him having better situational awareness than he claimed to have had.


Not sure what part he's referring to seeing coming as I haven't seen the quote?. Kimi's amazing start and going left instead of right or Seb coming left with the chop?. Or both, which would be nonsense.

His best chance of making the corner would be if the Ferrari's showed more interest in the racing line into T1 rather than only being focused on Max.


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Let's not forget why he was in a closing gap; because he chose to be. Opening the door to the left, and moving right to try to cut off Vettel on the right. It was of his own making. Which means that the person best placed to get out of that situation was none other than he himself.
Looking at how the accident happened, I don't believe slamming on the brakes was needed, and I agree with you it would have caused problems for those a bit further back. But there are other ways to use the brakes than just slamming them on.

I will repeat that I'm not sure when and to what extent Max lifted. But that was clearly not good enough to get himself out of the pincer he had created.



Sorry but that's just crazy. He was in a closing gap because one Ferrari got a good start from behind and got alongside closing any escape left but that driver also needed to go right to make the corner and the other Ferrari driver got a poor start and went left to squeeze Max but was never fully ahead of him so Max nor Kimi could go right back towards the racing line.

You make it sound like Max drove into a gap between two cars that were ahead rather than being the driver getting pincer'd by the Ferrari's like what actually happened quite clearly on video.

If Max could have sensed the pincer and backed out then so could Kimi who had the best view and Seb who created the situation. He has no more responsibility to avoid the contact than the other two and as the man stuck in the middle and the victim of the Ferrari pincer he had the least options.



Quote:
I agree that Vettel could have done something differently, but since it was Verstappen who created the pincer in the first place, he should not only have reacted sooner, he should now be thinking about the way he goes racing. There's a reason why he has so many incidents, and its not just making a reputation for himself.


How on earth does the man in the middle create the pincer move?. The only people that need to think about how they go racing is Seb and Kimi. How many incidents in T1 have they had now at Ferrari?. I'd bet it's more than Max has had in the same time if anyone can be bothered counting.

Hopefully both Ferrari's will focus on the racing line and taking T1 cleanly this weekend instead of just focusing on Max.

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Last edited by Lotus49 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Rubens stupidly not sensing the danger and putting a pincer on Kīmi and Ralf....



:twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If Verstappen had bailed out a second earlier would Vettel have gone all the way into Kimi?

Doubtful. No reason to think that.


Why? Look at the angle of Vettel's car before the hit. Pointed straight at the space Kimi would end up occupying. For Vettel not to hit Kimi he would have to straighten out very quickly. It wouldn't be smooth that's for sure.

Look at 3-4 seconds in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo

Those seconds in. Someone's going to have to have a sharp change of directions for the Ferrari's not to do this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lonAHJbH3lQ


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
He tried to, possibly only once he became aware of the driver on his left. (I wonder whether HD footage would help, but I don't have it, so...)

Why would he lift before?
Because of his contradictory (to an extent) statements, this remains up in the air, but if he really saw it coming, then he should have lifted earlier, to avoid being trapped in a closing gap. His only chance of making it through the first corner depended on him having better situational awareness than he claimed to have had.


Lotus49 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Correct, it wasn't his fault Seb had a poor start. His own poor start was hardly better, which of course was his fault. I would argue that the chop is precisely used when a driver hasn't cleared his attacker. The intention there is intimidation, which is why I loathe it.
It was indeed not his fault that Räikkönen had the perfect start, but it was his fault that he opened the door so wide that he made Räikkönen's job so much easier. His intention to go right towards Vettel was his fault, of course.

It's used with an increased risk if you haven't cleared the car though and Max's own start wasn't that poor, he wouldn't have had his front wheels alongside Seb's rear if it was and there's no need to cover his lefthand side. Unfortunately Seb had the going right route blocked off but continued to move across and squeeze him anyway and Kimi's sudden presence on the left blocked that route which left him squarely stuck in the middle of an ever closing gap thanks to the Ferrari drivers. Slamming on your brakes isn't an option, lifting completely also is more dangerous in those conditions with the retardation of the cars so he lifted as much as he could and tried to avoid Seb who was still closing. What did Kimi and Seb do to avoid the contact?
Let's not forget why he was in a closing gap; because he chose to be. Opening the door to the left, and moving right to try to cut off Vettel on the right. It was of his own making. Which means that the person best placed to get out of that situation was none other than he himself.
Looking at how the accident happened, I don't believe slamming on the brakes was needed, and I agree with you it would have caused problems for those a bit further back. But there are other ways to use the brakes than just slamming them on.

I will repeat that I'm not sure when and to what extent Max lifted. But that was clearly not good enough to get himself out of the pincer he had created.

Lotus49 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Did you think it through? How much better was it to have the accident?

Well seeing as he's got the least options of all involved to avoid it, I find it strange to pin any blame on him. He wasn't trying to put himself into an ever closing gap, he was already there and he can't turn into a ghost car but the Ferrari drivers were still closing it. I can't see what else Kimi can do really, he has to go right eventually to take the corner but Seb could have done something obviously different so while I don't think it was a ridiculously dangerous move that needed a penalty, it's a pretty common tactic after all whether you like it or not, I think his actions caused the incident so I have to blame him.

Max and Kimi don't seem to do much wrong at all.
I agree that Vettel could have done something differently, but since it was Verstappen who created the pincer in the first place, he should not only have reacted sooner, he should now be thinking about the way he goes racing. There's a reason why he has so many incidents, and its not just making a reputation for himself.


Bit of a head scratcher?

If the object in the middle create's the pincer then why on earth are pincers called pincers?

I mean they are the objects that pince right? When you're pincing something like cabling should I really be calling the cable the pincer?

Either everyone in the world but Fiki has been getting this wrong for years or Fiki thinks Verstappen is driving a red car.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I don't think Vettel was reckless, but I think he should have hedged his bets a bit better, and i'm sure if he could do it all over he would think twice about that lurch to the left. Not because of the outcome... sometimes you make the right move, and s*** happens, but in this case, the risk surely far outweighed the potential gain?

This is where I stand on it too. There were so many unknown (mostly risky) factors e.g. lining up beside Max, the rain under the lights, the different wet tyre choices, etc. The almost only dead certainty was if he got through Turn 1 unscathed Hamilton was going to be behind

Not sure if I understand you right - are you talking about Vettel coming out unscathed and Max and Kimi still clashing? Because otherwise I don't think Hamilton would have emerged ahead of either. Kimi got a better start than him - he got arguably the best start of all - so would have been ahead and, while Hamilton got a better start than Ricciardo, it's doubtful in my mind that he would have leapfrogged Max.

The potential for Max and Kimi to clash regardless of Vettel wasn't a part of my post. Nobody will ever know but my belief is that if Vettel didn't do the chop, Max and Kimi wouldn't have clashed. The extreme likelihood in that case is that Vettel would have been through Turn 1 unscathed and ahead of Hamilton. Whether he would have been 1st, 2nd or 3rd after Turn 1 is anyone's guess

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:07 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If You swap Vettel and Verstappen almost everybody would be ripping into Verstappen's reckless driving.

it's a claim that can never be substantiated, I'm afraid. I'm equally adamant that if Kimi hadn't been there no one would have a single negative thing to say about Vettel's move

Nonsense because I'm one who has shunned these squeeze tactics off the line and or going into and out of turns because IT'S NOT racing. It's on-track bullying, and I've had an issue with it since I could remember and with one driver in particular it didn't even matter if he was in front or behind you, he was going to bully you and everyone knew it and did their best not to occupy the piece of track they expected him to zip through. It's plain dirty and as far as I can remember Racing is a competition of outdoing one another via your ability to best zip through a track at maximum speed and efficiency, NOT how much more a driver can intimidate one another. In my book, Rubbin' most definitely IS NOT RACING.

So Vettel leaving him just enough room to barely SQUEEZE through is a gherkin poor position with which to apportion blame on Verstappen. It's already going to be close enough through the first series of turns, no need to intentionally make things tighter because the guy behind got a better launch and is threatening to overtake you.

They have solved this by the "always leave space" rule. You can call it bullying or brilliant defending or covering one's position, as always depending which driver is your favorite one. The fact is that Vettel left more than enough space, as stipulated in the rules. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Your book is not the one that the stewards are reading.

Out of curiosity, which driver were you referring on the bold bit? A special Brazilian one?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If You swap Vettel and Verstappen almost everybody would be ripping into Verstappen's reckless driving.

it's a claim that can never be substantiated, I'm afraid. I'm equally adamant that if Kimi hadn't been there no one would have a single negative thing to say about Vettel's move

Nonsense because I'm one who has shunned these squeeze tactics off the line and or going into and out of turns because IT'S NOT racing. It's on-track bullying, and I've had an issue with it since I could remember and with one driver in particular it didn't even matter if he was in front or behind you, he was going to bully you and everyone knew it and did their best not to occupy the piece of track they expected him to zip through. It's plain dirty and as far as I can remember Racing is a competition of outdoing one another via your ability to best zip through a track at maximum speed and efficiency, NOT how much more a driver can intimidate one another. In my book, Rubbin' most definitely IS NOT RACING.

So Vettel leaving him just enough room to barely SQUEEZE through is a gherkin poor position with which to apportion blame on Verstappen. It's already going to be close enough through the first series of turns, no need to intentionally make things tighter because the guy behind got a better launch and is threatening to overtake you.

They have solved this by the "always leave space" rule. You can call it bullying or brilliant defending or covering one's position, as always depending which driver is your favorite one. The fact is that Vettel left more than enough space, as stipulated in the rules. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Your book is not the one that the stewards are reading.

Out of curiosity, which driver were you referring on the bold bit? A special Brazilian one?


Can we nip in the assertion that "Vettel left space". He didn't leave anything he was still coming across when Kimi hit him. He probably was intending to leave space but we never got that far down the line because Verstappen/Kimi hit before it became an issue.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If You swap Vettel and Verstappen almost everybody would be ripping into Verstappen's reckless driving.

it's a claim that can never be substantiated, I'm afraid. I'm equally adamant that if Kimi hadn't been there no one would have a single negative thing to say about Vettel's move

Nonsense because I'm one who has shunned these squeeze tactics off the line and or going into and out of turns because IT'S NOT racing. It's on-track bullying, and I've had an issue with it since I could remember and with one driver in particular it didn't even matter if he was in front or behind you, he was going to bully you and everyone knew it and did their best not to occupy the piece of track they expected him to zip through. It's plain dirty and as far as I can remember Racing is a competition of outdoing one another via your ability to best zip through a track at maximum speed and efficiency, NOT how much more a driver can intimidate one another. In my book, Rubbin' most definitely IS NOT RACING.

So Vettel leaving him just enough room to barely SQUEEZE through is a gherkin poor position with which to apportion blame on Verstappen. It's already going to be close enough through the first series of turns, no need to intentionally make things tighter because the guy behind got a better launch and is threatening to overtake you.

They have solved this by the "always leave space" rule. You can call it bullying or brilliant defending or covering one's position, as always depending which driver is your favorite one. The fact is that Vettel left more than enough space, as stipulated in the rules. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Your book is not the one that the stewards are reading.

Out of curiosity, which driver were you referring on the bold bit? A special Brazilian one?

Sorry but I don't want ANY driver resorting to bullish behavior on-track, not even the guys I root for. I've raced on both 2 and 4 wheels and have fallen victim to such tactics several times and it's dirty, plain and simple. And in all the times it was done to me, I eventually got past every single one with the exception of one guy who I wanted to get past so badly but he did the same thing to another driver and they clipped wheels and his kart spun out, clipped the grass and he went flying out of his kart and was injured. The race was stopped and as he was having his vitals taken I was walking past towards my pit area and told him that's what happens when you play dirty and then asked him if it was worth it and he had nothing to say. Thankfully I never saw that maniac again.

About the BIB… ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If You swap Vettel and Verstappen almost everybody would be ripping into Verstappen's reckless driving.

it's a claim that can never be substantiated, I'm afraid. I'm equally adamant that if Kimi hadn't been there no one would have a single negative thing to say about Vettel's move

Nonsense because I'm one who has shunned these squeeze tactics off the line and or going into and out of turns because IT'S NOT racing. It's on-track bullying, and I've had an issue with it since I could remember and with one driver in particular it didn't even matter if he was in front or behind you, he was going to bully you and everyone knew it and did their best not to occupy the piece of track they expected him to zip through. It's plain dirty and as far as I can remember Racing is a competition of outdoing one another via your ability to best zip through a track at maximum speed and efficiency, NOT how much more a driver can intimidate one another. In my book, Rubbin' most definitely IS NOT RACING.

So Vettel leaving him just enough room to barely SQUEEZE through is a gherkin poor position with which to apportion blame on Verstappen. It's already going to be close enough through the first series of turns, no need to intentionally make things tighter because the guy behind got a better launch and is threatening to overtake you.

They have solved this by the "always leave space" rule. You can call it bullying or brilliant defending or covering one's position, as always depending which driver is your favorite one. The fact is that Vettel left more than enough space, as stipulated in the rules. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Your book is not the one that the stewards are reading.

Out of curiosity, which driver were you referring on the bold bit? A special Brazilian one?


Can we nip in the assertion that "Vettel left space". He didn't leave anything he was still coming across when Kimi hit him. He probably was intending to leave space but we never got that far down the line because Verstappen/Kimi hit before it became an issue.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:30 pm 
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genuine question. is there anyone who believes vettel wasnt at fault that isnt a fan in some shape or another. or is it purely his fans with no neutral backing at all?

also just watched the 2016 malaysian start. what a suprise vettel is involved in a incident. he really doesnt learn his lessons does he. malaysia china spa singapore. im sure there are many more. he really is clumsy sometimes. cant win the race at turn 1 sunshine.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:04 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
genuine question. is there anyone who believes vettel wasnt at fault that isnt a fan in some shape or another. or is it purely his fans with no neutral backing at all?

also just watched the 2016 malaysian start. what a suprise vettel is involved in a incident. he really doesnt learn his lessons does he. malaysia china spa singapore. im sure there are many more. he really is clumsy sometimes. cant win the race at turn 1 sunshine.


I don't think it's just some Seb fans to be fair. There are a few, not just on here, that can't look past Max in any incident. Just being there means he's the guilty party.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
genuine question. is there anyone who believes vettel wasnt at fault that isnt a fan in some shape or another. or is it purely his fans with no neutral backing at all?

also just watched the 2016 malaysian start. what a suprise vettel is involved in a incident. he really doesnt learn his lessons does he. malaysia china spa singapore. im sure there are many more. he really is clumsy sometimes. cant win the race at turn 1 sunshine.

I don't think it's just some Seb fans to be fair. There are a few, not just on here, that can't look past Max in any incident. Just being there means he's the guilty party.

How anyone could find Max guilty of this particular incident is beyond me, and I'm on record as considering him a dangerous driver who should have got a race ban by now.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:12 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If Verstappen had bailed out a second earlier would Vettel have gone all the way into Kimi?

I believe he would

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:21 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
genuine question. is there anyone who believes vettel wasnt at fault that isnt a fan in some shape or another. or is it purely his fans with no neutral backing at all?

also just watched the 2016 malaysian start. what a suprise vettel is involved in a incident. he really doesnt learn his lessons does he. malaysia china spa singapore. im sure there are many more. he really is clumsy sometimes. cant win the race at turn 1 sunshine.

I don't think it's just some Seb fans to be fair. There are a few, not just on here, that can't look past Max in any incident. Just being there means he's the guilty party.

How anyone could find Max guilty of this particular incident is beyond me, and I'm on record as considering him a dangerous driver who should have got a race ban by now.

Me too I would be one of his fiercest critics but I don't blame him on this one.

Perhaps you could say he made a mistake when he initially turned towards Vettel which allowed Kimi through on the inside, but he soon gave up on that to avoid hitting Vettel, however Vettel kept on coming across.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
genuine question. is there anyone who believes vettel wasnt at fault that isnt a fan in some shape or another. or is it purely his fans with no neutral backing at all?
Yes. I have never been a fan of his, and would happily say he was at fault if I came to that conclusion after looking at the accident.
I would also happily say Verstappen was innocent, if that's what I would conclude. Which I can't in this case.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:35 am 
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Although Vettel's actions precipitated the incident Verstappen still had the chance to take effective avoiding action. Of course it would have meant backing out and losing X no of positions which is why he was a bit hesitant and imprecise in backing off leading to the entanglement with Kimi.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:21 am 
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All three drivers had the chance to take avoiding action. I don't see how the finger can be pointed specifically at any one of them.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:29 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If You swap Vettel and Verstappen almost everybody would be ripping into Verstappen's reckless driving.

it's a claim that can never be substantiated, I'm afraid. I'm equally adamant that if Kimi hadn't been there no one would have a single negative thing to say about Vettel's move

Nonsense because I'm one who has shunned these squeeze tactics off the line and or going into and out of turns because IT'S NOT racing. It's on-track bullying, and I've had an issue with it since I could remember and with one driver in particular it didn't even matter if he was in front or behind you, he was going to bully you and everyone knew it and did their best not to occupy the piece of track they expected him to zip through. It's plain dirty and as far as I can remember Racing is a competition of outdoing one another via your ability to best zip through a track at maximum speed and efficiency, NOT how much more a driver can intimidate one another. In my book, Rubbin' most definitely IS NOT RACING.

So Vettel leaving him just enough room to barely SQUEEZE through is a gherkin poor position with which to apportion blame on Verstappen. It's already going to be close enough through the first series of turns, no need to intentionally make things tighter because the guy behind got a better launch and is threatening to overtake you.

They have solved this by the "always leave space" rule. You can call it bullying or brilliant defending or covering one's position, as always depending which driver is your favorite one. The fact is that Vettel left more than enough space, as stipulated in the rules. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong. Your book is not the one that the stewards are reading.

Out of curiosity, which driver were you referring on the bold bit? A special Brazilian one?


Can we nip in the assertion that "Vettel left space". He didn't leave anything he was still coming across when Kimi hit him. He probably was intending to leave space but we never got that far down the line because Verstappen/Kimi hit before it became an issue.

Well the simple fact of the matter is that there was enough space, so technically he did leave it at the time the accident happened. Anything else is just supposition


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:41 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Well the simple fact of the matter is that there was enough space, so technically he did leave it at the time the accident happened. Anything else is just supposition


No, he didn't leave space. He hadn't finished coming over had he. It never got that far. He certainly wasn't going to leave space in the gap between him and Kimi. The angle of his car proves that for definite. I am sure he was going to leave space between himself and the wall. I think "Vettel left space" is a misleading statement that doesn't stand up in the context of what actually happened.

We just not got far enough for leaving space or not to become a thing.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:05 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Well the simple fact of the matter is that there was enough space, so technically he did leave it at the time the accident happened. Anything else is just supposition


No, he didn't leave space. He hadn't finished coming over had he. It never got that far. He certainly wasn't going to leave space in the gap between him and Kimi. The angle of his car proves that for definite. I am sure he was going to leave space between himself and the wall. I think "Vettel left space" is a misleading statement that doesn't stand up in the context of what actually happened.

We just not got far enough for leaving space or not to become a thing.

and yet we can happily imagine that Vettel would have ploughed into Kimi had Max not been there?

However much anyone tries to spin it, the simple facts are that Vettel didn't hit anybody. Kimi hit Max and the resultant loss of control catapulted him into Vettel. Anything else is pure guesswork


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:20 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Well the simple fact of the matter is that there was enough space, so technically he did leave it at the time the accident happened. Anything else is just supposition


No, he didn't leave space. He hadn't finished coming over had he. It never got that far. He certainly wasn't going to leave space in the gap between him and Kimi. The angle of his car proves that for definite. I am sure he was going to leave space between himself and the wall. I think "Vettel left space" is a misleading statement that doesn't stand up in the context of what actually happened.

We just not got far enough for leaving space or not to become a thing.

and yet we can happily imagine that Vettel would have ploughed into Kimi had Max not been there?

However much anyone tries to spin it, the simple facts are that Vettel didn't hit anybody. Kimi hit Max and the resultant loss of control catapulted him into Vettel. Anything else is pure guesswork


All true but irrelevant to what I was saying RE leaving space. I don't know why it's so bold to suggest that if Vettel had continued on his current line for 2 more seconds he would have collided with Kimi. Seeing as I think everyone is in agreement that Vettel didn't know Kimi was there he wouldn't have reacted to him would he.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:27 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Well the simple fact of the matter is that there was enough space, so technically he did leave it at the time the accident happened. Anything else is just supposition


No, he didn't leave space. He hadn't finished coming over had he. It never got that far. He certainly wasn't going to leave space in the gap between him and Kimi. The angle of his car proves that for definite. I am sure he was going to leave space between himself and the wall. I think "Vettel left space" is a misleading statement that doesn't stand up in the context of what actually happened.

We just not got far enough for leaving space or not to become a thing.

and yet we can happily imagine that Vettel would have ploughed into Kimi had Max not been there?

However much anyone tries to spin it, the simple facts are that Vettel didn't hit anybody. Kimi hit Max and the resultant loss of control catapulted him into Vettel. Anything else is pure guesswork


All true but irrelevant to what I was saying. I don't know why it's so bold to suggest that if Vettel had continued on his current line for 2 more seconds he would have collided with Kimi. Seeing as I think everyone is in agreement that Vettel didn't know Kimi was there he wouldn't have reacted to him would he.

I don't think it is irrelevant. You're basically creating a scenario out of nothing.

Yes, it's possible that Vettel may have hit Kimi if both he and Kimi had continued on their trajectories without taking any other alternative action: it's simple physics. But there's no reason to believe that would have been the case, since a) Kimi could see Vettel, and without Max to limit his movements would have had space to avoid Vettel, and b) without Max blocking Vettel's line of sight it's likely he would have seen Kimi before any contact happened, or even c) Vettel may have been planning to stop at least one car width from the edge anyway if he was uncertain of just exactly where Max was.

Why just assume that everyone would just maintain their trajectory regardless? It's just silly


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:52 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Well the simple fact of the matter is that there was enough space, so technically he did leave it at the time the accident happened. Anything else is just supposition


No, he didn't leave space. He hadn't finished coming over had he. It never got that far. He certainly wasn't going to leave space in the gap between him and Kimi. The angle of his car proves that for definite. I am sure he was going to leave space between himself and the wall. I think "Vettel left space" is a misleading statement that doesn't stand up in the context of what actually happened.

We just not got far enough for leaving space or not to become a thing.

and yet we can happily imagine that Vettel would have ploughed into Kimi had Max not been there?

However much anyone tries to spin it, the simple facts are that Vettel didn't hit anybody. Kimi hit Max and the resultant loss of control catapulted him into Vettel. Anything else is pure guesswork


All true but irrelevant to what I was saying. I don't know why it's so bold to suggest that if Vettel had continued on his current line for 2 more seconds he would have collided with Kimi. Seeing as I think everyone is in agreement that Vettel didn't know Kimi was there he wouldn't have reacted to him would he.

I don't think it is irrelevant. You're basically creating a scenario out of nothing.

Yes, it's possible that Vettel may have hit Kimi if both he and Kimi had continued on their trajectories without taking any other alternative action: it's simple physics. But there's no reason to believe that would have been the case, since a) Kimi could see Vettel, and without Max to limit his movements would have had space to avoid Vettel, and b) without Max blocking Vettel's line of sight it's likely he would have seen Kimi before any contact happened, or even c) Vettel may have been planning to stop at least one car width from the edge anyway if he was uncertain of just exactly where Max was.

Why just assume that everyone would just maintain their trajectory regardless? It's just silly


I meant irrelevant in the context of Vettel "leaving" space.

The hitting Kimi thing is obviously a separate issue. I don't know why is wrong to suppose that Vettel would have continued his course of action for two more seconds - I actually make it more like 1.5 but hey ho. To me that seems a reasonably possible, maybe even likely outcome. I see know reason why we can't speculate on it.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:18 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, he didn't leave space. He hadn't finished coming over had he. It never got that far. He certainly wasn't going to leave space in the gap between him and Kimi. The angle of his car proves that for definite. I am sure he was going to leave space between himself and the wall. I think "Vettel left space" is a misleading statement that doesn't stand up in the context of what actually happened.

We just not got far enough for leaving space or not to become a thing.

and yet we can happily imagine that Vettel would have ploughed into Kimi had Max not been there?

However much anyone tries to spin it, the simple facts are that Vettel didn't hit anybody. Kimi hit Max and the resultant loss of control catapulted him into Vettel. Anything else is pure guesswork


All true but irrelevant to what I was saying. I don't know why it's so bold to suggest that if Vettel had continued on his current line for 2 more seconds he would have collided with Kimi. Seeing as I think everyone is in agreement that Vettel didn't know Kimi was there he wouldn't have reacted to him would he.

I don't think it is irrelevant. You're basically creating a scenario out of nothing.

Yes, it's possible that Vettel may have hit Kimi if both he and Kimi had continued on their trajectories without taking any other alternative action: it's simple physics. But there's no reason to believe that would have been the case, since a) Kimi could see Vettel, and without Max to limit his movements would have had space to avoid Vettel, and b) without Max blocking Vettel's line of sight it's likely he would have seen Kimi before any contact happened, or even c) Vettel may have been planning to stop at least one car width from the edge anyway if he was uncertain of just exactly where Max was.

Why just assume that everyone would just maintain their trajectory regardless? It's just silly


I meant irrelevant in the context of Vettel "leaving" space.

The hitting Kimi thing is obviously a separate issue. I don't know why is wrong to suppose that Vettel would have continued his course of action for two more seconds - I actually make it more like 1.5 but hey ho. To me that seems a reasonably possible, maybe even likely outcome. I see know reason why we can't speculate on it.

Speculate away. Equally, I don't see why I can't contest it. I don't believe that because one accident happened, which was largely a consequence of circumstance, it makes it more likely than another accident would have been inevitable. I think that's rubbish, personally.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:21 am 
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I don't understand why 'leaving space' is brought up. It is irrelevant in this case, I believe.

Quote:
Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:39 am 
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At the moment, and I stress at the moment the top two rows of the grid will be filled by Vettel, Kimi, Verstappen and Ricciardo with Hamilton on row 3 at the Malaysian Grand Prix, I wonder if anyone ha learnt anything from the last race, could this be a deja vu sittuaion I wonder. :]


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:42 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Speculate away. Equally, I don't see why I can't contest it. I don't believe that because one accident happened, which was largely a consequence of circumstance, it makes it more likely than another accident would have been inevitable. I think that's rubbish, personally.


I agree you can rebuke all you like. I'm sorry but I don't understand your second sentence. I think maybe you are looking into it too deeply? All I am saying is that if Max had it the brakes and gotten right out of the way then Vettel's line would have taken him into Kimi very soon. Vettel never looked like he was about to straighten up so I think that probably would have happened.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:46 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Speculate away. Equally, I don't see why I can't contest it. I don't believe that because one accident happened, which was largely a consequence of circumstance, it makes it more likely than another accident would have been inevitable. I think that's rubbish, personally.


I agree you can rebuke all you like. I'm sorry but I don't understand your second sentence. I think maybe you are looking into it too deeply? All I am saying is that if Max had it the brakes and gotten right out of the way then Vettel's line would have taken him into Kimi very soon. Vettel never looked like he was about to straighten up so I think that probably would have happened.

I guess it depends on whether you feel that Vettel just made a kamikaze run without even looking to see whether he would hit anyone, or whether he was spatially aware enough to stop before actual contact was made. I don't think we have any evidence to say that would have been the case. If Max hadn't been there, Seb would likely have seen Kimi. And without Max, Kimi wouldn't have banged wheels. After that I think both drivers are good enough to avoid each other without any wild cards in the equation.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:51 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Well the simple fact of the matter is that there was enough space, so technically he did leave it at the time the accident happened. Anything else is just supposition


No, he didn't leave space. He hadn't finished coming over had he. It never got that far. He certainly wasn't going to leave space in the gap between him and Kimi. The angle of his car proves that for definite. I am sure he was going to leave space between himself and the wall. I think "Vettel left space" is a misleading statement that doesn't stand up in the context of what actually happened.

We just not got far enough for leaving space or not to become a thing.

and yet we can happily imagine that Vettel would have ploughed into Kimi had Max not been there?

However much anyone tries to spin it, the simple facts are that Vettel didn't hit anybody. Kimi hit Max and the resultant loss of control catapulted him into Vettel. Anything else is pure guesswork


All true but irrelevant to what I was saying. I don't know why it's so bold to suggest that if Vettel had continued on his current line for 2 more seconds he would have collided with Kimi. Seeing as I think everyone is in agreement that Vettel didn't know Kimi was there he wouldn't have reacted to him would he.

I don't think it is irrelevant. You're basically creating a scenario out of nothing.

Yes, it's possible that Vettel may have hit Kimi if both he and Kimi had continued on their trajectories without taking any other alternative action: it's simple physics. But there's no reason to believe that would have been the case, since a) Kimi could see Vettel, and without Max to limit his movements would have had space to avoid Vettel, and b) without Max blocking Vettel's line of sight it's likely he would have seen Kimi before any contact happened, or even c) Vettel may have been planning to stop at least one car width from the edge anyway if he was uncertain of just exactly where Max was.

Why just assume that everyone would just maintain their trajectory regardless? It's just silly


Exactly this.

In addition, one can see from the gif that pokerman provided that Vettel has already started correcting his trajectory just before the impact. There is no reason to believe that he would infinitely continue in this trajectory... It is absurd.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:26 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, he didn't leave space. He hadn't finished coming over had he. It never got that far. He certainly wasn't going to leave space in the gap between him and Kimi. The angle of his car proves that for definite. I am sure he was going to leave space between himself and the wall. I think "Vettel left space" is a misleading statement that doesn't stand up in the context of what actually happened.

We just not got far enough for leaving space or not to become a thing.

and yet we can happily imagine that Vettel would have ploughed into Kimi had Max not been there?

However much anyone tries to spin it, the simple facts are that Vettel didn't hit anybody. Kimi hit Max and the resultant loss of control catapulted him into Vettel. Anything else is pure guesswork


All true but irrelevant to what I was saying. I don't know why it's so bold to suggest that if Vettel had continued on his current line for 2 more seconds he would have collided with Kimi. Seeing as I think everyone is in agreement that Vettel didn't know Kimi was there he wouldn't have reacted to him would he.

I don't think it is irrelevant. You're basically creating a scenario out of nothing.

Yes, it's possible that Vettel may have hit Kimi if both he and Kimi had continued on their trajectories without taking any other alternative action: it's simple physics. But there's no reason to believe that would have been the case, since a) Kimi could see Vettel, and without Max to limit his movements would have had space to avoid Vettel, and b) without Max blocking Vettel's line of sight it's likely he would have seen Kimi before any contact happened, or even c) Vettel may have been planning to stop at least one car width from the edge anyway if he was uncertain of just exactly where Max was.

Why just assume that everyone would just maintain their trajectory regardless? It's just silly


Exactly this.

In addition, one can see from the gif that pokerman provided that Vettel has already started correcting his trajectory just before the impact. There is no reason to believe that he would infinitely continue in this trajectory... It is absurd.

That's not true the change of trajectory was caused by Kimi hitting Vettel's car.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:43 am 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Speculate away. Equally, I don't see why I can't contest it. I don't believe that because one accident happened, which was largely a consequence of circumstance, it makes it more likely than another accident would have been inevitable. I think that's rubbish, personally.


I agree you can rebuke all you like. I'm sorry but I don't understand your second sentence. I think maybe you are looking into it too deeply? All I am saying is that if Max had it the brakes and gotten right out of the way then Vettel's line would have taken him into Kimi very soon. Vettel never looked like he was about to straighten up so I think that probably would have happened.

I guess it depends on whether you feel that Vettel just made a kamikaze run without even looking to see whether he would hit anyone, or whether he was spatially aware enough to stop before actual contact was made. I don't think we have any evidence to say that would have been the case. If Max hadn't been there, Seb would likely have seen Kimi. And without Max, Kimi wouldn't have banged wheels. After that I think both drivers are good enough to avoid each other without any wild cards in the equation.


I'm not talking about Max not being there to hide Kimi, I'm talking about Max backing out just in time.

Vettel would have had to straighten up pretty sharply to avoid Kimi. I'm trying to put any real blame on Vettel here. I just think that's what probably would have happened.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
and yet we can happily imagine that Vettel would have ploughed into Kimi had Max not been there?

However much anyone tries to spin it, the simple facts are that Vettel didn't hit anybody. Kimi hit Max and the resultant loss of control catapulted him into Vettel. Anything else is pure guesswork


All true but irrelevant to what I was saying. I don't know why it's so bold to suggest that if Vettel had continued on his current line for 2 more seconds he would have collided with Kimi. Seeing as I think everyone is in agreement that Vettel didn't know Kimi was there he wouldn't have reacted to him would he.

I don't think it is irrelevant. You're basically creating a scenario out of nothing.

Yes, it's possible that Vettel may have hit Kimi if both he and Kimi had continued on their trajectories without taking any other alternative action: it's simple physics. But there's no reason to believe that would have been the case, since a) Kimi could see Vettel, and without Max to limit his movements would have had space to avoid Vettel, and b) without Max blocking Vettel's line of sight it's likely he would have seen Kimi before any contact happened, or even c) Vettel may have been planning to stop at least one car width from the edge anyway if he was uncertain of just exactly where Max was.

Why just assume that everyone would just maintain their trajectory regardless? It's just silly


Exactly this.

In addition, one can see from the gif that pokerman provided that Vettel has already started correcting his trajectory just before the impact. There is no reason to believe that he would infinitely continue in this trajectory... It is absurd.

That's not true the change of trajectory was caused by Kimi hitting Vettel's car.

Check the moment before the impact. Just before, his trajectory changes ever so slightly. Maybe it's a trick in the eyes, I'll happily agree if that's the case, should we verify it somehow. Without telemetry we can't really tell.

This doesn't change the fact that he could change his trajectory to avoid Kimi later on. It's pure speculation that he would continue on this trajectory infinitely, that's the main point.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:13 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
All true but irrelevant to what I was saying. I don't know why it's so bold to suggest that if Vettel had continued on his current line for 2 more seconds he would have collided with Kimi. Seeing as I think everyone is in agreement that Vettel didn't know Kimi was there he wouldn't have reacted to him would he.

I don't think it is irrelevant. You're basically creating a scenario out of nothing.

Yes, it's possible that Vettel may have hit Kimi if both he and Kimi had continued on their trajectories without taking any other alternative action: it's simple physics. But there's no reason to believe that would have been the case, since a) Kimi could see Vettel, and without Max to limit his movements would have had space to avoid Vettel, and b) without Max blocking Vettel's line of sight it's likely he would have seen Kimi before any contact happened, or even c) Vettel may have been planning to stop at least one car width from the edge anyway if he was uncertain of just exactly where Max was.

Why just assume that everyone would just maintain their trajectory regardless? It's just silly


Exactly this.

In addition, one can see from the gif that pokerman provided that Vettel has already started correcting his trajectory just before the impact. There is no reason to believe that he would infinitely continue in this trajectory... It is absurd.

That's not true the change of trajectory was caused by Kimi hitting Vettel's car.

Check the moment before the impact. Just before, his trajectory changes ever so slightly. Maybe it's a trick in the eyes, I'll happily agree if that's the case, should we verify it somehow. Without telemetry we can't really tell.

This doesn't change the fact that he could change his trajectory to avoid Kimi later on. It's pure speculation that he would continue on this trajectory infinitely, that's the main point.

His trajectory was going to take him into Kimi's car, whether he could have avoided the collision at the last second is debatable given the speed he moved across the track.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think it is irrelevant. You're basically creating a scenario out of nothing.

Yes, it's possible that Vettel may have hit Kimi if both he and Kimi had continued on their trajectories without taking any other alternative action: it's simple physics. But there's no reason to believe that would have been the case, since a) Kimi could see Vettel, and without Max to limit his movements would have had space to avoid Vettel, and b) without Max blocking Vettel's line of sight it's likely he would have seen Kimi before any contact happened, or even c) Vettel may have been planning to stop at least one car width from the edge anyway if he was uncertain of just exactly where Max was.

Why just assume that everyone would just maintain their trajectory regardless? It's just silly


Exactly this.

In addition, one can see from the gif that pokerman provided that Vettel has already started correcting his trajectory just before the impact. There is no reason to believe that he would infinitely continue in this trajectory... It is absurd.

That's not true the change of trajectory was caused by Kimi hitting Vettel's car.

Check the moment before the impact. Just before, his trajectory changes ever so slightly. Maybe it's a trick in the eyes, I'll happily agree if that's the case, should we verify it somehow. Without telemetry we can't really tell.

This doesn't change the fact that he could change his trajectory to avoid Kimi later on. It's pure speculation that he would continue on this trajectory infinitely, that's the main point.

His trajectory was going to take him into Kimi's car, whether he could have avoided the collision at the last second is debatable given the speed he moved across the track.

But here we are, people passing judgement on a move that is debatable (in your own words) that could have hit Kimi. Coulda, woulda, shoulda really. That's what Zoue and myself tried to argue, that people shouldn't take it out on Vettel based on a scenario that he would continue left forever... It is just silly. Zoue has covered it in his posts, I don't think we will take it much further


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