planetf1.com

Good evening all,

Two pronged attack with this thread I'm afraid.

Firstly we all know the business side of F1 is highly complicated and is a big reason which causes many teams to fold or pull out. It got me thinking is F1 in the years since the financial crash as rich with sponsorship as it once was in yesteryear? Yes, we all know that the banning of Tobacco hit some of the F1 teams hard with no more Marlboro, West or Camel however looking at the cars of recent years & teamwear looking threadbare of sponsorship these days with vast space available. Whilst the top teams at present (Mercedes, Ferrari) are not struggling with sponsorship deals, many of the other teams appear to be so e.g. Mclaren, Haas, Sauber all with significant spacing on their cars available. The number of teams without a title sponsor seems to be nearly half the field, of the top of my head there are: McLaren, Red Bull (albeit rumoured to be linking up with Aston Martti), Haas, Toro Rosso, Renault, Sauber.

With the above in mind, is sponsorship in F1 not as appealing as it once was to many markets or businesses? I mean you only have to look at some of the deals in place currently that whilst many are established brands they are not what the majority of the public would call household names. Or is this a case of the teams pricing themselves out of many deals much like Ron did with him not reducing the McLaren ratecard whilst not as competitive as they once were. The exception to this rule bar the big two just named seems to be Force India with their car being covered in what seems to be dozens of different brand names.

The second point to the article is in regards to the teams engineers. Whilst the majority of fans are aware of the big names (Newey, Lowe, Allison to name a few) many are not aware of the rest of the engineers within a team, myself included. Therefore firstly who are the key engineers to each team at present? And secondly with the amount of engineers who are at each team these days how often are engineers swapping teams, is there a high number of engineers swapping teams throughout the year or at the end of the season or is it a case only a handful or so of engineers are on the move each year?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... 18-968309/

So another new livery next year to the Papaya Orange run for Alonso in the Indy500 this year. Personally much prefer this orange to their current livery, albeit I don't dislike this years in all honesty, a lot better than the gray/black run over the recent years. Good to see talk of potential new major sponsors by Zak there too....hopefully with the addition of some major sponsors the car won't look as bare as it currently does!

This is a purely personal view with absolutely no facts to back it up, just like in the 'best' newspapers, but I think sponsorship has changed due to the loss of free to air coverage.

For example, the type of people who watch F1 are going to be quite a narrow section of the population. It involves some active decisions on their part and usually some extra cost to be able to see the product.
It would tend to be a more targeted product, like watches and cars which (they think) would appeal to the audience.
No good putting casual stuff as there will be few casual viewers

The higher priced F1 makes viewing their product - the less audience they generate and the less reason for sponsors to get involved.

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I think they've made the calculation. You know the parabolic curve you did in mathematics 129 years back (talking for myself )

So Mclaren and Renault announcing new sponsorship deals for next season already, albeit Mclaren's is the company owned by Fernando Alonso. Zak also mentioned in the TP conference yesterday that they've also signed 2 unannounced new sponsors one of which is a US based firm.

Could this be the return of more sponsors to F1 with the new direction of the owners do we think?

I think it's just the return of sponsors to two teams who are widely expected to be more competitive next year. It's a good time to get in the door while their prices are still pretty cheap - if either Macca or Renault challenge for the title, that sponsorship will pay off handsomely.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

What do sponsors want, and what does Formula One offer? Who are sponsors targeting?

Formula One offers global exposure to sponsors, but sponsors closely examine the demographics of the audience in determining whether this sport is good value for the money. Also in the fight are other sports that may also offer global coverage.


http://e0.365dm.com/17/09/16-9/20/manchester-united-zlatan-ibrahimovic-romelu-lukaku_4099451.jpg?20170913135544

Why aren't Chevrolet, a branch of a global industry, in Formula One? Because they get more bang for the buck with a football team, and reach out to more of their targeted demographic audience.


https://f1broadcasting.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/korea2012bbcsky1.png

This graph from the 2012 Korean Grand Prix may offer some insight. Of all those viewers, how many are hard core fans and how many just tune in to watch the conclusion?

Engineers migrate like birds, and teams continually attempt to poach any promising bright mind. Just look at how much effort Red Bull go to in order to retain Newey. He works under his own conditions, supported by a staff subject to his personal whimsy. He is also paid very handsomely, and is allowed to participate in whatever he wishes, even if it is outside of his Red Bull responsibilities.

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Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

I agree with your views and accept that it's a general rule of thumb that sponsors want a bang for their buck, however with the global exposure F1 does bring you would think that F1 would have more than the 5/6 sport partners and more of the teams would have greater number of sponsors on their cars not just the Force India. Again like you referenced the demographics of a sport will ultimately determine the number, quality etc of a sponsor to a sport which over recent years under Bernies power did not attract the younger audience members bar the hardcore fans which already existed for which liberty seem to be doing big marketing experiences to win over younger audiences.

would love to see some newer tv stats, 2012 was a loooong time ago,, 4k tvs were $20,000, and the first hybrid won lemans

Could you please provide more current stats?

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Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.

Looks like the McLaren car will look even more sparse of sponsors next season than the last few years even tho they got a 'marketing guru' on board and have ditched Honda.

https://www.mclaren.com/formula1/partners/

On looking at that list it looks like McLaren have lost the following sponsors, some of whom were very recent additions which seems strange:

-Santander
-Johnnie Walker
-Castrol/BP- are they still using them as their fuel and oil supplier?
-CNN
-Michael Kors

That's only with my quick look on the train commuting home!! I know Zak stated before Christmas that they have signed 2 new sponsors yet no title sponsor, however surely with the loss of the above sponsors and Honda's injection of cash not only will McLaren have a smaller budget (unless the owners are happy to dig into their pockets) as well as a very dull car......McLaren may have less sponsors than the Manor had!!!

The owners are covering the costs for this year according to AMuS but losing sponsors is of course never good but to be fair Santander have pulled out of F1 team sponsorship across the board so that can't be helped. No idea for the reasons of the others or how sizeable the sponsorship was.

Castrol is interesting as it was assumed because they're running Renault then running BP/Castrol would be good news but what if one of those 2 new sponsors Zak mentioned is that Petrobras deal that was rumored? Maybe they've had to ditch Castrol or come up with a Williams type situation from 2014 where the branding was Petrobras but the products being used were Petronas?

Be interesting to see what happens.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Much like yourself I thought running Renault engines and using BP/Castrol products would be good news and the best scenario with them moving to Renault engines. Petrobras must be one of the two new sponsors which is interesting if they are having to supply the fuel and oil, firstly have they ever done this before? And secondly didn't they pull out of F1 due to the costs and legal troubles?

If it's Petrobras McLaren run then I'd be a little worried, the fuel and oil (wink wink) are so important in this formula and McLaren have suffered before in 2014 through using a supplier not married to the engine maker's design and I'd hate to be reading that again. Petrobras haven't actually supplied any product for a while to my knowledge but I've no idea why they left to be honest.

BP didn't do too bad with their first effort by all accounts so not impossible to hit the ground running but when you're reading Petronas are still bringing 50bhp gains for Mercedes in year 5/6/7 or however long they've been developing their products for like they allegedly did last year, I'd be more positive about continuing to use BP/Castrol that are married to the Renault design and use Petrobras as branding like Williams did in 2014.

(I read the 50bhp gain for Mercedes on f1technical from a source who's been right on Mercedes more than once so I buy it personally although it's unclear if it was used on track or on the 50% TE, 1000bhp unit they've allegedly got running on the dyno. AMuS quoted Mercedes producing 949bhp on track in Mexico I believe so it would fit if it's the dyno one).

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Echo your concerns with McLaren rumoured to be moving to Petrobras...surely Zak and the owners must surely recognise using the same fuel supplier as your new engine partner will be much more sensible.....I mean weren't Mercedes strong advisors in McLaren using Petronas fuel and oil when they used their engine in 2014? I can only think of 2 reasons why McLaren would not use BP/Castrol which is firstly could this have been part of the negotiations in getting a Renault supply off engines (which i very much doubt) or that with McLaren losing several sponsors and some of their biggest sponsors they were desperate for the money....I mean the owners won't want to keep funding the racing team with very few results.

Just on a side note seems strange now looking back the prominent exposure Johnnie Walker had on the car considering not only their significant branding on the Force India but also given the fact they were ending their partnership.

Mercedes wanted McLaren to ditch Esso for Petronas even before 2014 but yeah they did tell them to use it in 2014 too but obviously McLaren wanted to give Esso a year development before the Honda hook up and they were trying to negotiate a new deal with Exxon/Mobil as well so stayed loyal. Which turned out well...

Until anything is confirmed it's hard to say why they would want to run Petrobras. I've a feeling it will be branding only but if you're Petrobras you'll still not want Castrol stickers on the car even if it's in it so that would need sorting out.

I don't think Johnnie Walker was particularly visible at McLaren last year and as I understand it McLaren didn't want to give JW what Force India offered livery wise for that amount of sponsorship so that's why they went with FI.

On a side note and shamelessly lifting info from a poster on F1Technical again, the loss of the 8 sponsors actually didn't have much to do with McLaren's recent troubles. Credit to Manoah2u for the info...

- Santander : Leaves Formula 1 alltogether totally irrelevant of any Mclaren state of affairs
- Castrol : Only present due to the HONDA link, which is gone, and supposedly gets replace with Petrobras.
- Johnnie Walker : Was announced to leave as early as 2015, then got (temporarily) retained, and if i'm correct is going to Force India (again, not news and thus has nothing to do with 2018 prospects)
- Star Sports Network has changed its mechanics about which sport to cater, so again, nothing to do with Mclaren or trust for 2018.
- Calsonic Kansei only was present due to the Honda link. Honda gone = Calsonic Kansei gone. NOTHING to do with 2018 Mclaren prospects
- GREAT Britain and Northern Ireland : Totally to do due to Brexit, nothing to do with Mclaren's F1 2018 capabilities.
- Michael Kors : Leaving because Fernando Alonso's own brand is coming aboard, nothing to do with 2018 Mclaren capabilities
- CNN : Leaves as a sponsor because F1 shifts from NBC to ESPN. Nothing to do with Mclaren 2018 prospects.


I think Castrol had nothing to do with Honda and I've no idea about GB and NI leaving because of Brexit but the rest seems legit and explains the departures quite well. Losing sponsors is never great of course but it doesn't appear to be the mass panic exodus because of poor performance that it first appears to be.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

3 new partners signed according to Zak, some sponsor dependant livery changes expected and McLaren are doing something new with their garage, whatever that means. Not threadworthy in its own right so thought I'd put it here.






https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... ok-993928/

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Beat me to the comment on this one! Good to see Zak has signed some sponsors...anyone seen any rumours as to whom these may be bar the Petrobras link? I know in the article he stated they won't have a title partner but are looking for a 'principal partner' could one of these sponsors be that if the livery could change due to sponsorship....only the larger partnerships dictate this surely?

Additionally he stated that there are big changes this year at McLaren, does this include any personnel from other teams as I have not seen any and it seems over the last 3-5 years they have lost more engineers than they have gained?

There's always movement going on between teams personnel wise but it rarely gets attention or reported on unless it's a high profile name or one of the teams fights it like when Mercedes got Serra to change his mind about joining McLaren. McLaren's top spots are filled so we'll likely not hear much but they'll still be signing people I'm sure.

I think Zak's principle partner basically means the same as the old title sponsor meant but without getting their name in the title of the team like 'Vodafone McLaren'. If the sponsorship is big enough the 'principal partner' will get to influence the livery I think and I'm guessing that's what's happening here.

There was rumours the reason Macca vetoed the shark fin was to maximise visibility of the rear wing and that there was a sponsor waiting. If it's Petrobras then we'll have that written on the rear wing and maybe even a yellow/green or papaya/green livery for example but the team won't be 'Petrobras McLaren F1' whatever the sponsorship is size wise, it will only ever be 'McLaren' under Zak Brown is what he's saying basically. Even Renault aren't getting a mention but I'm sure we'll see them on the livery.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Calsonic Kansei are still listed as a partner for McLaren, so doesn't look like they have lost their deal.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-moto ... SKBN1F02G1

Zak confirming in there that there is in fact 3 new sponsors so this does counter some of the lost ones you listed above, for which this should help the McLaren livery not look as bare. Is worth noting he states 2 of the 3 are new to F1 which is encouraging for the sport in general especially after the last few weeks with Formula E gaining momentum and signing multiple new sponsorship deals what seems to be a new one weekly.

https://www.mclaren.com/formula1/partne ... rtnership/

McLaren announcing their first new partnership for 2018 in CNBC. Presumably this is the American sponsor Zak was talking about that they had signed to the team. Correct me if I am wrong, however were CNBC not with Sauber over the last years?

Yes; CNBC is leaving Sauber to sponsor McLaren.

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/16689

I'd be interested to know for how much money, but at first glance this fits with Zak's description that they'd all be companies we've heard of, big names. CNBC is about as big a name as you can get in news media, so hopefully it's a competitive rate.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

Definitely fits in with Zak's description like you said, and I am guessing is more significant to CNBC too with greater exposure with McLaren over Sauber. From memory the CNBC logo was on the side of the rear wing on the Sauber, so maybe moves to the same place on the McLaren, albeit they already have sponsors there, unless they play to reshuffle these? Saying that with the CNBC logo of similar shape to the Shell logo, I think it would look nice on the side of the car like Shell is for Ferrari.....however placement of their logo is very dependent on the rate McLaren are receiving......guess we will find out in 4 weeks.

https://www.mclaren.com/formula1/partne ... nnovation/

Second sponsorship in a week for McLaren with the link up with Airgain. Got to be honest with you, I have never heard of this brand, does anyone know what they do? (Apologies not all up on the technical IT behind the scene stuff)

Interesting neither have been the rumoured Petrobras sponsor as what has been rumoured. Maybe this is the third of the three Zak alluded too

McLaren secure Dell Technologies deal....https://news.sky.com/story/mclaren-stri ... e-11240552

Nice hook up. That's 3 with CNBC and Airgain. Might be more before 23rd or not but I think the Amazon and Petrobras rumours won't come to anything.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Nice indeed. That's a promise that Zak has kept, then - three big sponsors, and hopefully also big money involved. Surely the good times must be coming!

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

Very good news for Mclaren this sponsor....big established brand which by the sounds of what's been said sounds like it's a significant one which I imagine will have prominent exposure on the car and teamwear. I've not seen any Amazon rumours however would be huge if anything to come of it.

Interesting that neither of the deals were Petrobras who were heavily linked to the team at the backend of last season and during the off season. Wonder who will be the fuel/lubricant sponsor for mclaren this year as if it was to continue as BP/Castrol you wouldn't imagine they'd remove their name from their partners on their website.

Whilst considering the above is worth noting Renault and BP have strengthened their partnership with extending their sponsorship and tie up for another 5 years. Has having a successful fuel and lubricants partner ever been so critical to a team?

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/223 ... xtend-deal

Also just this week Mercedes announced their new apparel partner with Tommy Hilfiger. Worth noting on the below that it states that it was Mercedes decision to not extend the Hugo boss partnership as they were pursuing Tommy. Which leads onto the second point, weren't Tommy actively looking to arrange some partnership with Lewis, which if true could be an influencing factor on Mercedes pursuing them to keep Lewis within the team.

https://www.pitpass.com/61012/Mercedes- ... y-Hilfiger

I think the Amazon rumors started only because of the documentary and Amazon launching in Australia and with the season opener being there then plastering the car in Grand Tour/Amazon/Prime/Grand Prix Driver seemed like a good idea so a rumor was born but nothing as strong as the Petrobras rumors.

Yeah I've read the Lewis sponsor thing last year and makes sense. I think everyone expects a new deal. The fuel situation for McLaren is interesting still and we'll have to wait and see what's up there yeah, but it's very important, BP and Renault extended their deal recently I believe.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... l-1006831/

Well it's official, Petrobras and McLaren announce long term partnership. They'll supply fuel in 2019 but be partners from this year so it looks like Macca will run BP for this year but that's some pretty good going for Zak to go out and hook themselves another fuel partner long term. That kind of thing (Having your own bespoke fuel partner) is very attractive to manufacturers looking longer term to the next regs.

Petrobras
Dell
CNBC
Kimoa
Airgain

Not bad at all.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

Nope, pretty nice. And I think it shows how much that Honda engine was holding all the sponsors back - the moment it's gone, in they come pouring.

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PF1 PICK 10 COMPETITION (3 wins, 12 podiums): 2017: 19th| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 United States Champion! (world #2)

Echo your point that it's more attractive to manufacturers coming into the sport having a bespoke fuel supplier. Still think it's odd McLaren we're happy to swap BP/Castro for Petrobras considering their new engine suppliers also use the current supplier of the team.

In saying that good to see the McLaren signing more sponsors, and the other teams signing new sponsors too- maybe the liberty buyout has refreshed companies views on F1 which must only be a good thing sponsorship wise for the teams. Also noticed that the Petrobras sticker is also on Fernando Alonso's helmet for the current year which would hint it's a lucrative deal for the team.

Well (silly season rumor starts here) if they do go for their own engine or a new manufacturer with the new regs the supplier may be good foresight...