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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:30 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
It perplexed me at the time because I felt Vettel had had a few missed opportunities as well including pole in Spain where he messed up the final sector, got beaten to pole by Kimi in Monaco although he went on to win the race, missed an open goal for pole and win in Austria with Lewis's gearbox penalty and got outpaced by Kimi all weekend at Silverstone. I don't know. It just feels like people just gloss over Vettel's deficiencies more than anyone else.

He didn't "miss an open goal". He got beat by a superior car. It would have been a missed open goal from Bottas if he did anything but win that race.

It's like me claiming that Hamilton "missed an open goal" when Vettel had steering wheel problems in Hungary.

I'm inclined to believe that Vettel just underperformed yet again as he did when he got out qualified by Kimi over the season last year and again this year in Monaco and Silverstone. Once again people glossing over Vettel's failures blaming the car. Ferrari have produced an excellent car this year and I can believe that were it Ricciardo in that car in Austria he would have found the .043 required for pole.

And if Hamilton had beat Bottas by 0.3 seconds Hungary (less than Vettel did to Raikkonen in Austria), he would have been on pole too; and then he would have won easily thanks to Vettel's steering issues on Sunday.

Take off your biased glasses, it's delusional to fault Vettel for Austria. Mercedes was very clearly the car to have that weekend.

What biased glasses? No Hamilton fan is disputing that he has had his off days this year. I readily admit that. What I am saying however is that Vettel too has been found wanting a few times but as evidenced by you there is always excuses at the ready for him.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:10 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
When the dust settles on the careers of Hamilton , Alonso and Vettel I'd be in a position to answer the question.
At the moment I'd say he will have a shout.
I find comments that suggest Lewis to be far inferior to Alonso to be absolute claptrap.
They have raced together and the result told a different story to that nonsense.

Indeed I find it strange that some can say that Alonso is far superior to Hamilton like 2007 never happened.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Hamilton is currently in superb form but I still rate Alonso higher and I still don't find it a tough call.

I don't think Hamilton has had a season that compares to Alonso's best efforts yet, and if Alonso had been with Mercedes between 2014-16 I don't see him losing a multitude of wins to Rosberg. Alonso dominates team mates.

So yeah, I would still put Alonso ahead of Hamilton and solidly in the top ten of all time. Probably at number 7. That being said, Hamilton probably does make my top 10 these days as well.


People give an awful, even crazy amount of credit to Alonso for being so much better than Massa.
Yeah he's a good bit better than Massa as I believe Lewis and Vettel would have been also.

I really missed the domination in 2007.
Is that because you can only dominate if you are vastly superior to the other driver?

Indeed let's put Massa into some kind of context here, Massa got beat 3 years on the bounce by Bottas, Bottas who is very much being second best to Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
Mercedes car is best of his generation. If Hamilton would drive for Force India or Williams since 2007, he would never be called that title. Maybe Ocon or Wherlein are the best of their generation, and we will never know if they will not get Mercedes drive? "Best of a generation" is a very tricky title. But Hamilton had a chance an he used it very well. And if he is the best of generation, I want to see more respect to Rosberg who happened to beat him one year in the same car. Oh, and Button too.

If you want to use WDC standings as the barometer of who got beat then Alonso has been beat by both Hamilton and Button, he was also losing to Trulli until Alonso's manager Briatore sacked him.

There is a reason why Hamilton doesn't drive for either Force India or Williams, maybe you could work that one out?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:27 pm 
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mas wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
mas wrote:
I think Hamilton would have won a race or two by now if he had been in a Force India or Williams since 2007, the ones where their existing drivers just got podiums. He would have been snapped up by McLaren within a season or two like Senna was by them. Vettel, Ricciardo and Verstappen had advanced from Toro Rosso to Red Bull in a similar way, cream rises to the top.

p.s. Rosberg was already getting respect at Williams as was Button at BAR/Honda/Brawn.


Maldonado won a race in a Williams. Doesn't mean that much does it.

Some experts said that the Williams was the best car for part of that season, Hamilton would have done more with it.

Indeed, giving that car to Maldonado and Senna was just a waste of a car.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:07 pm 
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Zblogger wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.


Utter nonsense. You don't become a multiple champion in formula 1 by just natural talent. That means any btcc or wrc or whatever driver in these categories with bags of natural talent could just jump in a formula 1 car and be a world champion.

And to suggest he does.not.put the work in is Utter nonsense too. Your talking about the mans clothes ffs. how can his dress sense inhibit him from being a great driver?

Yeah whilst Button apparently gets a gold star, I watched a podcast recently that put it forward that Button lead McLaren down a development garden path in 2012 because he was struggling and it was only after McLaren started listening to Hamilton again that they managed to pull their season around.

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2013: 5th Place
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2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:36 am 
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Honestly, some of the stuff in this thread...

Lewis is a great driver. But he is not the reason Mercedes is such a strong team, and his absence is not the reason McLaren have lost the way. Drivers simply do not have that sort of effect on the car anymore, if indeed they ever did.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:56 am 
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bonecrasher wrote:
What biased glasses? No Hamilton fan is disputing that he has had his off days this year. I readily admit that. What I am saying however is that Vettel too has been found wanting a few times but as evidenced by you there is always excuses at the ready for him.

You claimed that Vettel "missed an open goal" in Austria when Mercedes was clearly the best car. And yet you do not claim that Hamilton missed an open goal in Monaco or Hungary, despite the fact that Bottas was only 0.045s and 0.250s off pole in those two weekends, while Raikkonen was over 0.500s off pole in Austria.

That is why I called your comment biased.


Last edited by KingVoid on Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:57 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Honestly, some of the stuff in this thread...

Lewis is a great driver. But he is not the reason Mercedes is such a strong team, and his absence is not the reason McLaren have lost the way. Drivers simply do not have that sort of effect on the car anymore, if indeed they ever did.


Sure, but engineers like Paddy Lowe was motivated to move to Merc partly because of Lewis.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?

Are you comparing the 2013 McLaren to the current Mercedes?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:45 am 
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shay550 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Honestly, some of the stuff in this thread...

Lewis is a great driver. But he is not the reason Mercedes is such a strong team, and his absence is not the reason McLaren have lost the way. Drivers simply do not have that sort of effect on the car anymore, if indeed they ever did.


Sure, but engineers like Paddy Lowe was motivated to move to Merc partly because of Lewis.

I suspect it was more because of Wolff. The rumours initially were that Lowe was going to Williams, brought on by Wolff, but then Wolff left Williams and subsequently Lowe followed him to Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.


Utter nonsense. You don't become a multiple champion in formula 1 by just natural talent. That means any btcc or wrc or whatever driver in these categories with bags of natural talent could just jump in a formula 1 car and be a world champion.

And to suggest he does.not.put the work in is Utter nonsense too. Your talking about the mans clothes ffs. how can his dress sense inhibit him from being a great driver?

Yeah whilst Button apparently gets a gold star, I watched a podcast recently that put it forward that Button lead McLaren down a development garden path in 2012 because he was struggling and it was only after McLaren started listening to Hamilton again that they managed to pull their season around.

Yep, 400 engineers were scratching their heads until Lewis showed them the way.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:32 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
What biased glasses? No Hamilton fan is disputing that he has had his off days this year. I readily admit that. What I am saying however is that Vettel too has been found wanting a few times but as evidenced by you there is always excuses at the ready for him.

You claimed that Vettel "missed an open goal" in Austria when Mercedes was clearly the best car. And yet you do not claim that Hamilton missed an open goal in Monaco or Hungary, despite the fact that Bottas was only 0.045s and 0.250s off pole in those two weekends, while Raikkonen was over 0.500s off pole in Austria.

That is why I called your comment biased.


Lol, I think when he said Hamilton has had is "off days" he was probably referring to days such as qualification in Monaco and Hungary.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:58 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?


Too much too young... yeah yeah Max Verstappen... not everyone is Max.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:49 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
"Is Hamilton now rising to be the best of his generation?"

No.


I like a detailed and comprehensive answer like this!


Sometimes a simple one word answer is the smarter way to go, there has been many time when I should have stopped with a simple "yes' or "no" in response to a question!
;)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.


Utter nonsense. You don't become a multiple champion in formula 1 by just natural talent. That means any btcc or wrc or whatever driver in these categories with bags of natural talent could just jump in a formula 1 car and be a world champion.

And to suggest he does.not.put the work in is Utter nonsense too. Your talking about the mans clothes ffs. how can his dress sense inhibit him from being a great driver?

Yeah whilst Button apparently gets a gold star, I watched a podcast recently that put it forward that Button lead McLaren down a development garden path in 2012 because he was struggling and it was only after McLaren started listening to Hamilton again that they managed to pull their season around.

McLaren was at fault that season. Basically Lewis and Jenson had different brake/cooling systems during an in season update and Jenson's was faulty. They did not realize it at the time and Jenson started playing with his setup to get round the excessive wear he was getting which didn't work. Eventually they sorted the cooling and Jenson used Lewis setup as a starting point to get back to competitiveness. This is why Jenson's mid 2012 was so dodgy. However there is no doubt that Lewis is second only to Fernando in being able to drive a bad car fast and so will give a team more latitude if they screw up a design.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?

Are you comparing the 2013 McLaren to the current Mercedes?

No I'm saying that Perez already had a chance at a top team, there is a reason why Perez drives for a midfield team and Hamilton drives for a top team and it has nothing to do with luck.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Posts: 27515
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.


Utter nonsense. You don't become a multiple champion in formula 1 by just natural talent. That means any btcc or wrc or whatever driver in these categories with bags of natural talent could just jump in a formula 1 car and be a world champion.

And to suggest he does.not.put the work in is Utter nonsense too. Your talking about the mans clothes ffs. how can his dress sense inhibit him from being a great driver?

Yeah whilst Button apparently gets a gold star, I watched a podcast recently that put it forward that Button lead McLaren down a development garden path in 2012 because he was struggling and it was only after McLaren started listening to Hamilton again that they managed to pull their season around.

Yep, 400 engineers were scratching their heads until Lewis showed them the way.

If the engineers sort it out all by themselves why was Button needed to be present to sort out his problems?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 1st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Posts: 27515
ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?


Too much too young... yeah yeah Max Verstappen... not everyone is Max.

...or Hamilton. ;)

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 1st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?


Too much too young... yeah yeah Max Verstappen... not everyone is Max.

...or Hamilton. ;)


.........or Vettel (who holds most records for youngest driver etc) :D


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Indeed, but I don't doubt for a second that Perez is a better driver now than he was then. Let's not forget Perez had his moments of brilliance in the first season which is why he got his shot. But in the long term it didn't do him any good did it? In fact he's lucky he didn't find himself out of F1.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:40 pm 
Firstly I don't think Perez was anywhere near as bad as is made out in 2013. I think he probably would have gone on into 2014 and probably beat Button or at least been quicker overall. But he was quite experienced going to Mclaren, 39 races under his belt and starting his 3rd full season. 3rd season is the time I think it should have all clicked into place if it didn't already in the 2nd season.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zblogger wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Here's a little fractured fairy tale many can relate to.

Once upon a time my uncle Ted visited our family regularly, and was always wonderful with all of us kids. He was patient, loving, protective, attentive, and always brought constant happiness and merriment. But he drank, and when the sun dropped and it was time for him to go home, he always drove home very drunk.

Was Ted a good guy or a bad guy?

That's the thing, a person is made up of different things. In Ted's case, his personality scored a perfect 10. But his behavior (as an irresponsible citizen and drunk driver) was a big fail. Personality and behavior, two completely separate things.

And when I examine any driver, this is how I work, I break down their individual parts instead of just looking at the surface. It gets much more complicated in Formula One because there are many different factors that affect the bottom line, what most view in Wiki, just results. If you are not in the right car, it does not matter if you can walk on water. There are team politics, more powerful than many believe. This is a long list and every factor does affect the bottom line. Some drivers crack under pressure, while others (Jimmy Johnson in NASCAR) becomes an almost perfect machine the more pressure you put on him.

I will begin by stating that IMO Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation. Put him in a London double decker bus and he will drive the wheels off that thang.

Although having immense talent is a job requirement in Formula One, other factors also come into play. Does the driver put in the hard work and effort to hone his craft, does he do the correct mental preparation so he always brings his "A" game for the entire race weekend? Is he a positive influence on a team and a team-builder and motivator instead of a disruptive influence? How much relevant feedback does he give to his engineers?

Does he have enough technical proficiency to be able to contribute the car's setup, maybe even design? Many years ago Roger Penske had a gem in Mark Donohue, who was also an engineer. There was no other driver who could sort out a car better and quicker than Mark.

IMO racecraft is the driver's ability to deal with other factors than just the track itself. Other drivers, weather (Button gets a gold star on that one), strategy, even anticipating changing conditions are part of racecraft. Closely coupled with racecraft is the ability to make correct risk versus reward decisions.

The business side side of things was also mentioned in this thread, and it is relevant. Yes, Formula One is definitely a business. But it is also an entertainment medium. Maintaining a positive public optic and also being able to cater to sponsor's wishes does matter. A very good comparison is between Hamilton and the reigning Formula One champion, Rosberg. Rosberg always looks like he stepped off the cover of GQ magazine, while Hamilton's fashion choices are more hip-hop. Different public perceptions cater to different target audiences.

Bringing this little TLDR post to a conclusion, Hamilton is the most naturally talented driver of his generation, but he falls short in just about every other category.


Utter nonsense. You don't become a multiple champion in formula 1 by just natural talent. That means any btcc or wrc or whatever driver in these categories with bags of natural talent could just jump in a formula 1 car and be a world champion.

And to suggest he does.not.put the work in is Utter nonsense too. Your talking about the mans clothes ffs. how can his dress sense inhibit him from being a great driver?

Yeah whilst Button apparently gets a gold star, I watched a podcast recently that put it forward that Button lead McLaren down a development garden path in 2012 because he was struggling and it was only after McLaren started listening to Hamilton again that they managed to pull their season around.

Yep, 400 engineers were scratching their heads until Lewis showed them the way.

If the engineers sort it out all by themselves why was Button needed to be present to sort out his problems?

Because the problems centered around Button being unable to find the right setup, not him leading the development of the car. They are two wholly separate issues


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:48 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Firstly I don't think Perez was anywhere near as bad as is made out in 2013. I think he probably would have gone on into 2014 and probably beat Button or at least been quicker overall. But he was quite experienced going to Mclaren, 39 races under his belt and starting his 3rd full season. 3rd season is the time I think it should have all clicked into place if it didn't already in the 2nd season.


Perez was very close to Button in the second half of 2013. He's probably stepped on a level since. I certainly think he's the best driver outside of the big 5.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?

Are you comparing the 2013 McLaren to the current Mercedes?

No I'm saying that Perez already had a chance at a top team, there is a reason why Perez drives for a midfield team and Hamilton drives for a top team and it has nothing to do with luck.

I think you are missing the point being made, which is that a car can often colour perceptions of a driver's worth. If Perez had been hired by Mercedes - and let's not forget, at the time they weren't what would be described as a leading team - then his name would probably be on everyone's lips now, rather than Hamilton's. And that's not taking anything away from either driver


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Firstly I don't think Perez was anywhere near as bad as is made out in 2013. I think he probably would have gone on into 2014 and probably beat Button or at least been quicker overall. But he was quite experienced going to Mclaren, 39 races under his belt and starting his 3rd full season. 3rd season is the time I think it should have all clicked into place if it didn't already in the 2nd season.


Perez was very close to Button in the second half of 2013. He's probably stepped on a level since. I certainly think he's the best driver outside of the big 5.

I'm more of a Sainz guy myself


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:44 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Firstly I don't think Perez was anywhere near as bad as is made out in 2013. I think he probably would have gone on into 2014 and probably beat Button or at least been quicker overall. But he was quite experienced going to Mclaren, 39 races under his belt and starting his 3rd full season. 3rd season is the time I think it should have all clicked into place if it didn't already in the 2nd season.


Perez was very close to Button in the second half of 2013. He's probably stepped on a level since. I certainly think he's the best driver outside of the big 5.

I'm more of a Sainz guy myself


Sainz could be but he doesn't have Perez's consistency as yet. As a finished article Sainz could well end up being better than Perez but right now I'd go for Sergio.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:52 pm 
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The fundamental problem with Perez apart from his occasional wild crashes is that his top speed is not consistent so it is difficult for teams to truly rate him. Some days he was tenths behind Button other days he was tenths ahead, similar feature with Hulkenberg. I just feel he's lacking that final edge that distinguishes a no.1 but he's close and he can pull off a blinder of a race occasionally. I'm not really surprised he's tussling hard with Ocon this season rather than just plain pulling ahead.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:23 pm 
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mas wrote:
The fundamental problem with Perez apart from his occasional wild crashes is that his top speed is not consistent so it is difficult for teams to truly rate him. Some days he was tenths behind Button other days he was tenths ahead, similar feature with Hulkenberg. I just feel he's lacking that final edge that distinguishes a no.1 but he's close and he can pull off a blinder of a race occasionally. I'm not really surprised he's tussling hard with Ocon this season rather than just plain pulling ahead.


I actually think it's the opposite. Over the last 2 seasons together Perez was the more consistent. It was Hulk that was fluctuating all over the place, a trend we have seen continue now Hulk is at Renault. I think Perez's ultimate pace isn't absolute tier 1 for pace but he is able to bring his A game often. Look at his points scoring record over the past few seasons.

And he never has wild crashes anymore.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:42 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ALESI wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?


Too much too young... yeah yeah Max Verstappen... not everyone is Max.

...or Hamilton. ;)


.........or Vettel (who holds most records for youngest driver etc) :D

Exactly, Perez had 2 years of F1 experience, enough time to show if he was a top driver or not.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah whilst Button apparently gets a gold star, I watched a podcast recently that put it forward that Button lead McLaren down a development garden path in 2012 because he was struggling and it was only after McLaren started listening to Hamilton again that they managed to pull their season around.

Yep, 400 engineers were scratching their heads until Lewis showed them the way.

If the engineers sort it out all by themselves why was Button needed to be present to sort out his problems?

Because the problems centered around Button being unable to find the right setup, not him leading the development of the car. They are two wholly separate issues

They clearly had to go down a different route to appease Button.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 pm 
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What was the podcast out of interest,poker?.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alex53 wrote:
We keep trying to compare drivers. You cannot reliably compare drivers in F1, unless they are in the same car, and even then there are team politics to confuse it all.

Put Perez in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Force India and suddenly the headlines would be about Lewis struggling and 'has he lost it', and Perez world champion contender/winner.

Perez took Hamilton's seat at McLaren, how did that work out for him?

Are you comparing the 2013 McLaren to the current Mercedes?

No I'm saying that Perez already had a chance at a top team, there is a reason why Perez drives for a midfield team and Hamilton drives for a top team and it has nothing to do with luck.

I think you are missing the point being made, which is that a car can often colour perceptions of a driver's worth. If Perez had been hired by Mercedes - and let's not forget, at the time they weren't what would be described as a leading team - then his name would probably be on everyone's lips now, rather than Hamilton's. And that's not taking anything away from either driver

You think that Perez beats Rosberg when he couldn't outqualify Button at McLaren, you think that Perez achieves what Hamilton achieves?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mas wrote:
The fundamental problem with Perez apart from his occasional wild crashes is that his top speed is not consistent so it is difficult for teams to truly rate him. Some days he was tenths behind Button other days he was tenths ahead, similar feature with Hulkenberg. I just feel he's lacking that final edge that distinguishes a no.1 but he's close and he can pull off a blinder of a race occasionally. I'm not really surprised he's tussling hard with Ocon this season rather than just plain pulling ahead.


I actually think it's the opposite. Over the last 2 seasons together Perez was the more consistent. It was Hulk that was fluctuating all over the place, a trend we have seen continue now Hulk is at Renault. I think Perez's ultimate pace isn't absolute tier 1 for pace but he is able to bring his A game often. Look at his points scoring record over the past few seasons.

And he never has wild crashes anymore.

Apart from with his teammate. :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:02 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
What was the podcast out of interest,poker?.

I thought somebody might ask so I saved it. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIo_dyQpSeY

It's the American guy that talks about Button and the others don't look to correct him, one works part time for Autosport.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:10 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What was the podcast out of interest,poker?.

I thought somebody might ask so I saved it. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIo_dyQpSeY

It's the American guy that talks about Button and the others don't look to correct him, one works part time for Autosport.


Cheers, I'll stick that on later :thumbup:

We should have a podcast thread on here like I've seen in a few places. Somewhere people can put podcasts that they listen to or their favourites from the past etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:03 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What was the podcast out of interest,poker?.

I thought somebody might ask so I saved it. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIo_dyQpSeY

It's the American guy that talks about Button and the others don't look to correct him, one works part time for Autosport.


Cheers, I'll stick that on later :thumbup:

We should have a podcast thread on here like I've seen in a few places. Somewhere people can put podcasts that they listen to or their favourites from the past etc.

It's worth watching all the podcast but for the Button reference start watching at 45 mins and that leads into it, it also tends to refute what Blinky says about the drivers not being involved in the development paths of the car in the belief that a driver like Hamilton basically just turns up and drives the car.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
bonecrasher wrote:
What biased glasses? No Hamilton fan is disputing that he has had his off days this year. I readily admit that. What I am saying however is that Vettel too has been found wanting a few times but as evidenced by you there is always excuses at the ready for him.

You claimed that Vettel "missed an open goal" in Austria when Mercedes was clearly the best car. And yet you do not claim that Hamilton missed an open goal in Monaco or Hungary, despite the fact that Bottas was only 0.045s and 0.250s off pole in those two weekends, while Raikkonen was over 0.500s off pole in Austria.

That is why I called your comment biased.


Lol, I think when he said Hamilton has had is "off days" he was probably referring to days such as qualification in Monaco and Hungary.

Indeed....


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
What was the podcast out of interest,poker?.

I thought somebody might ask so I saved it. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIo_dyQpSeY

It's the American guy that talks about Button and the others don't look to correct him, one works part time for Autosport.



Pretty swish podcast. I'm catching up with a bunch of them.


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