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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lojik wrote:

Oh yeah, good point.

Now I think about it, this could be an advantage in terms of helping Hamilton. While Bottas is showing to have a few weaknesses this season, I think one of his strongest points is defending. Although he sometimes does have a blank moment with this. But he did a good job at holding Vettel behind him for quite some time in Spain. And there were plenty of occasions when he was at Williams where he held a faster car behind him. I think it was 2015 in Bahrain where he managed to keep vettel behind for simply ages and Vettel just couldn't find a way by. It was the same with Kimi at another race. Bottas often is good at keeping drivers behind, even if it does slow him down too. He managed to keep calm while under pressure near the end of both the races he won this year.

But as this track is quite easy to overtake on and because of the speed of the Mercedes, I feel he will manage to get past the Red Bulls by the end of the race. I think it was just Q3 he underperformed in. The rest of the weekend, he looked reasonably close to Hamilton.


Vettel also completely destroyed his tyres in Silverstone by upping his pace and heavily defending Bottas for 4-5 laps. By the time Bottas went by Vettel started lapping 3 seconds a lap slower and then 4-5 laps after that the tyre failed.

Bottas is usually poor in one thing per weekend, it seems his qualifying pace was bad today. Hopefully that means a decent race pace. But as ever there will be question mark over which tyre he will struggle on.

Just because it normally has been the case, why have you said there is a question mark about which tyre he will struggle on? I think it is a bit unreasonable to say he will struggle with one set in in one stint. Just by using the word might instead will have made that come across better. If we base things on the past too much then I can basically say Palmer will be rubbish during the race. But I wouldn't want to say that as we don't actually know. We were surprised by Palmers pace last race, so it may be the case that Bottas may not have this moment that often occurs. I don't like to say things will happen when we don't know.


Not really.

I Keep reading people post RE Palmer's pace in Singapore. His pace was no different to normal, the gap to Hulk was as big as ever. The only difference was the front end of the grid was taken out so it was further up the order than normal. It's a perfect example of how a car speed effects how the drivers are perceived

Obv off topic but I had to get it off my chest :-P

My point was that it wasn't rubbish. I still think he was quite a bit better there than the previous races.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:48 am 
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lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lojik wrote:
lamo wrote:
Perfectly placed to hold off Vettel for the podium


Oh yeah, good point.

Now I think about it, this could be an advantage in terms of helping Hamilton. While Bottas is showing to have a few weaknesses this season, I think one of his strongest points is defending. Although he sometimes does have a blank moment with this. But he did a good job at holding Vettel behind him for quite some time in Spain. And there were plenty of occasions when he was at Williams where he held a faster car behind him. I think it was 2015 in Bahrain where he managed to keep vettel behind for simply ages and Vettel just couldn't find a way by. It was the same with Kimi at another race. Bottas often is good at keeping drivers behind, even if it does slow him down too. He managed to keep calm while under pressure near the end of both the races he won this year.

But as this track is quite easy to overtake on and because of the speed of the Mercedes, I feel he will manage to get past the Red Bulls by the end of the race. I think it was just Q3 he underperformed in. The rest of the weekend, he looked reasonably close to Hamilton.


Vettel also completely destroyed his tyres in Silverstone by upping his pace and heavily defending Bottas for 4-5 laps. By the time Bottas went by Vettel started lapping 3 seconds a lap slower and then 4-5 laps after that tyre failed.

Bottas is usually poor in one thing per weekend, it seems his qualifying pace was bad today. Hopefully that means a decent race pace. But as ever there will be question mark over which tyre he will struggle on.


Not sure I understand the comment in bold, you pointed out earlier in the thread that he was running mods that were different to Hamilton, the same mods that were clearly dud on Friday. So probably not poor from Bottas at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:58 am 
Option or Prime wrote:

Not sure I understand the comment in bold, you pointed out earlier in the thread that he was running mods that were different to Hamilton, the same mods that were clearly dud on Friday. So probably not poor from Bottas at all.

The fact they are running different cars certainly casts enough doubt to not throw Bottas under the bus. Some of the 0.7 is likely to be the car, but Bottas has qualified behind by over 0.5 in 5 of the last 8 races now making it hard to give him the complete benefit of doubt.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:59 am 
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justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else

Everyone has it except Honda. Merc & Ferrari clearly have a better Q3 mode than Renault and it appears both Merc & Ferrari factory teams might be getting a similar boost now

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:03 pm 
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lamo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Get Out Of Jail Free qualifying mode, methinks


TBF Kimi is two tenths back and a long way ahead of Bottas. I think Vettel would probably be heading for pole.

Yes Hamilton is very good in qualifying anyway. But their special mode definitely helps!

Bottas qualified 5th.


Perfectly placed to hold off Vettel for the podium

I'd rather have him second right behind Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Vettel would have been on pole. This is the downside of having a lacky in the second car. Kimi isn't good enough t beat Hamilton on Ferrari's good days.


Kimi or Ferrari not good enough?

All of a sudden Kimi is a qualifying God?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Vettel would have been on pole. This is the downside of having a lacky in the second car. Kimi isn't good enough t beat Hamilton on Ferrari's good days.


Kimi or Ferrari not good enough?

All of a sudden Kimi is a qualifying God?


Your words not mine, rude to deliberately misinterpret....Ferrari had dominance in practice but Mercedes improved their car. Ferrari couldn't find the problem with Vettel's car let alone fix it. I'm not convinced Vettel would have got pole either. I feel Ferrari dropped the ball today.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Vettel would have been on pole. This is the downside of having a lacky in the second car. Kimi isn't good enough t beat Hamilton on Ferrari's good days.


Kimi or Ferrari not good enough?

All of a sudden Kimi is a qualifying God?


Your words not mine, rude to deliberately misinterpret....Ferrari had dominance in practice but Mercedes improved their car. Ferrari couldn't find the problem with Vettel's car let alone fix it. I'm not convinced Vettel would have got pole either. I feel Ferrari dropped the ball today.

Vettel on average has been 0.25s faster than Kimi this season in qualifying, who would determine Kimi as being the ultimate pace of the Ferrari, would you consider Bottas to be the ultimate pace of the Mercedes if Hamilton had to miss qualifying?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Some people might find it strange but for me Monaco was the first indication he would find his feet. It was the first time his characteristic pace showed. Sure he made errors, lots of drivers do, and you can work on that, but pace is something not everybody has.

Either way good performance today. Really finding his feet and I very much agree his performances are going under the radar somewhat.

Hoping for McLaren to start giving him some decent strategies now because he could've had a few more points by now.
Watching qualifying I thought about a troubling possibility; that Alonso is now involved in a tactical game that might help him loosen his ties with McLaren. That would take some of the shine off Stoffel's performance, but it is undeniable that Stoffel is doing very well indeed. I wish I could see how his racing is covered by British channels, but I'm allergic to paywalls for watching high-speed advertising.

Given the upgrades and the time Stoffel managed, Fernando should have been 6th. However, Malaysia appears to be quite a fickle track for the operating window, given that Hamilton set the pole time on a car with derate and then went slower in his second lap where he wasn't derate affected, due to the tyre operating window.

I would suspect that it's more likely that Alonso had a similar problem - if he's trying to negotiate a contract based on performance, it doesn't help his case if his rookie team mate went faster in a slower car.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:34 pm 
pokerman wrote:
Vettel on average has been 0.25s faster than Kimi this season in qualifying, who would determine Kimi as being the ultimate pace of the Ferrari, would you consider Bottas to be the ultimate pace of the Mercedes if Hamilton had to miss qualifying?


Vettel also would have had a new and the latest spec Ferrari engine vs Kimi's race 4/5 lower spec one.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:04 pm 
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justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else


You have to remember that the "special qualifying mode" is a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans. It helps explain their consistent lack of pace in Q3.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
I feel Ferrari dropped the ball today.


Big time. This was a must win race for Vettel. Instead, it's an unmitigated disaster. Only a Hamilton DNF can save him now.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else


You have to remember that the "special qualifying mode" is a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans. It helps explain their consistent lack of pace in Q3.

It's also missed that Bottas didn't improve at all from Q2 to Q3.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:05 pm 
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So with Bottas basically proving that the upgrade package Mercedes brought didn't work, it's the first time in the hybrid era I can remember Mercedes bringing an update that didn't accomplish anything. Mercedes is definitely vulnerable now. Vettel and Ferrari are not taking advantage and are making errors and dropping the ball at the worst time. Lewis will use those errors and seal this championship by COTA, but he might not have the fastest car at the end of the season.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:14 pm 
kleefton wrote:
So with Bottas basically proving that the upgrade package Mercedes brought didn't work, it's the first time in the hybrid era I can remember Mercedes bringing an update that didn't accomplish anything. Mercedes is definitely vulnerable now. Vettel and Ferrari are not taking advantage and are making errors and dropping the ball at the worst time. Lewis will use those errors and seal this championship by COTA, but he might not have the fastest car at the end of the season.


I wouldn't write it off, it was a situation in which they only got 1 dry session to work it out and the track temperatures were very high in P2 which is a known Mercedes issue. I know they threw a lot of upgrades on, I am sure some of them are at least a small step forward. If Japan is dry they'll get a good chance to see what aspects work in P1 and P2 and which don't.

They will also get to see how it works for Bottas tomorrow in a race.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else


You have to remember that the "special qualifying mode" is a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans. It helps explain their consistent lack of pace in Q3.

Wasn't aware the Red Bull guys were Ferrari fans, but good to know:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/130060/mercedes-qualifying-power-cary--ricciardo


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:31 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else

Everyone has it except Honda. Merc & Ferrari clearly have a better Q3 mode than Renault and it appears both Merc & Ferrari factory teams might be getting a similar boost now


I understand what you're saying, but I would put it differently. Mercedes and Ferrari simply have a slightly more powerful engine than Renault. When they all run at max settings, they both have a bit more power than redbull. I wouldn't say there's a special 'mode' those two alone use because even redbull turn it up more in Q3. You could say they too are using their own Q3 engine mode if you want. They make jumps from Q1 to Q2 to Q3 when they too also turn it up to the max. They're just not rewarded with similar type of power to those two


Last edited by justmoi on Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:35 pm 
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justmoi wrote:
mcdo wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else

Everyone has it except Honda. Merc & Ferrari clearly have a better Q3 mode than Renault and it appears both Merc & Ferrari factory teams might be getting a similar boost now


Right, they all turn up the engines, obviously if you have the best engine the highest mode will be more powerful than others.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:36 pm 
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lamo wrote:
kleefton wrote:
So with Bottas basically proving that the upgrade package Mercedes brought didn't work, it's the first time in the hybrid era I can remember Mercedes bringing an update that didn't accomplish anything. Mercedes is definitely vulnerable now. Vettel and Ferrari are not taking advantage and are making errors and dropping the ball at the worst time. Lewis will use those errors and seal this championship by COTA, but he might not have the fastest car at the end of the season.


I wouldn't write it off, it was a situation in which they only got 1 dry session to work it out and the track temperatures were very high in P2 which is a known Mercedes issue. I know they threw a lot of upgrades on, I am sure some of them are at least a small step forward. If Japan is dry they'll get a good chance to see what aspects work in P1 and P2 and which don't.

They will also get to see how it works for Bottas tomorrow in a race.


We shall see. But Toto's reaction when he was asked about the gap between Hamilton and Bottas said it for me. They know they screwed up.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:38 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Invade wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
It's incredible how much better Vettel's mind management is out of the car.



LOL.

Yeah, he's taking it very well. He knows he can still score good points tomorrow too.


It seems like facade to me, you can hear it in the tone of the voice. The same with Hamilton when he is on a downer, the body language and tone give it all away.

You have to feel for them, they have to go straight in front of TV cameras, minutes after huge disappointments. This could be what loses Vettel a years effort and expectation and he knows it right now. I would do a Senna (Monaco 1988) and hide in my hotel room for the day.


I think out of the car he deals with it better than Hamilton. In the car it's a different story.


Possibly, he is certainly better at putting on a face in public. But then look at Alonso. Wasn't he still happy and smiley post race in Singapore before going into his room and punching a hole in the wall.


To be fair he punched a hole after watching the replays on his TV and realizing how good a start he had.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:38 pm 
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I thought Kimi gave a competent qualifying performance compared to his opposition even if Vettel probably would have beaten it on one of his better days. He is still on the front row, just needs to stay out of trouble at the start and should bank some good points if not a podium/win.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:43 pm 
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justmoi wrote:
mcdo wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else

Everyone has it except Honda. Merc & Ferrari clearly have a better Q3 mode than Renault and it appears both Merc & Ferrari factory teams might be getting a similar boost now


I understand what you're saying, but I would put it differently. Mercedes and Ferrari simply have a slightly more powerful engine than Renault. When they all run at max settings, they both have a bit more power than redbull. I wouldn't say there's a special 'mode' those two alone use because even redbull turn it up more in Q3. You could say they too are using their own Q3 engine mode if you want. They make jumps from Q1 to Q2 to Q3 when they too also turn it up to the max. They're just not rewarded with similar type of power to those two

I thought it was common knowledge that everyone - bar Honda, that is - did have their own special qualifying modes? But also that the Mercedes one was better than everyone else's?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:56 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
What a performance by Vandoorne. He left Alonso for dead there. Isn't this Alonso's favourite track?!


Alonso has lost it. People are too careless to notice it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:56 pm 
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Honestly after watching all this season, it's hard for me to say which is the better engine. It's so close, set up, amount of downforce (drag), track layout, tyre in working range, so many things influence it. I've seen races where Ferrari were faster in the so called 'power sectors', and vice versa. I've also seen Ferrari more than keep up with Mercedes on 'power tracks'.

I'm still leaning towards the Mercedes engine but it's not by much at all. If it was a difference maker, Vettel would not be beating Bottas handily. But when Vettel does really well he's apparently overdriving the car. When Lewis does, it's the car apparently. Even though his teammate is clearly struggling with a diva of a car. Imagine the title race without Lewis in it, it would be a cakewalk for Vettel.

That's how close both cars performance in ideal conditions is.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:58 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mcdo wrote:
What a performance by Vandoorne. He left Alonso for dead there. Isn't this Alonso's favourite track?!


Alonso has lost it. People are too careless to notice it.

First of all that's horseshit. Second of all this is the Vandoorne that I expected at the start of the year. The people that saw another F1 washout were clueless

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else


You have to remember that the "special qualifying mode" is a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans. It helps explain their consistent lack of pace in Q3.

Wasn't aware the Red Bull guys were Ferrari fans, but good to know:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/130060/mercedes-qualifying-power-cary--ricciardo

How do you explain Kimi's jump in performance and the fact that Bottas did not improve, Red Bull complain about engines, nothing new.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:57 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
justmoi wrote:
mcdo wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else

Everyone has it except Honda. Merc & Ferrari clearly have a better Q3 mode than Renault and it appears both Merc & Ferrari factory teams might be getting a similar boost now


Right, they all turn up the engines, obviously if you have the best engine the highest mode will be more powerful than others.

I guess it's a good job that some of these drivers never raced in the last turbo age of the 80's when they had special qualifying engines, some better than others, now everything regarding engines has to be so equal apart from the cars themselves perhaps, some drivers would love to be in the Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:00 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mcdo wrote:
What a performance by Vandoorne. He left Alonso for dead there. Isn't this Alonso's favourite track?!


Alonso has lost it. People are too careless to notice it.

Hardly the surprising thing was the poor performance of Vandoorne, I was starting to lose confidence in my judgement of drivers.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:04 pm 
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It was very close. Mercedes as expected recovered from Friday but they seem to be lacking grip. In qualifying they always have advantage so tomorrow should be interesting race.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:04 pm 
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justmoi wrote:
Honestly after watching all this season, it's hard for me to say which is the better engine. It's so close, set up, amount of downforce (drag), track layout, tyre in working range, so many things influence it. I've seen races where Ferrari were faster in the so called 'power sectors', and vice versa. I've also seen Ferrari more than keep up with Mercedes on 'power tracks'.

I'm still leaning towards the Mercedes engine but it's not by much at all. If it was a difference maker, Vettel would not be beating Bottas handily. But when Vettel does really well he's apparently overdriving the car. When Lewis does, it's the car apparently. Even though his teammate is clearly struggling with a diva of a car. Imagine the title race without Lewis in it, it would be a cakewalk for Vettel.

That's how close both cars performance in ideal conditions is.

Indeed Bottas destroyed Massa in qualifying yet this year he's getting beat easily by Vettel, some are so paranoid about engine qualifying modes that they can't distinguish between overall car/engine performance.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:56 pm 
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As of a few races ago, Ferrari started to do better in terms of matching the Merc Q3 qualifying mode and I remember Toto making mention of that at the time, but I still think the Merc mode has yet more juice than any other when it matters.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:29 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mcdo wrote:
What a performance by Vandoorne. He left Alonso for dead there. Isn't this Alonso's favourite track?!


Alonso has lost it. People are too careless to notice it.


Where and when did he lose it? He out qualified Vandoorne in Singapore. Even Raikkonen out qualifies Vettel sometimes.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else


You have to remember that the "special qualifying mode" is a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans. It helps explain their consistent lack of pace in Q3.

Wasn't aware the Red Bull guys were Ferrari fans, but good to know:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/130060/mercedes-qualifying-power-cary--ricciardo

How do you explain Kimi's jump in performance and the fact that Bottas did not improve, Red Bull complain about engines, nothing new.

Are you seriously contending that Mercedes don't have a special qualifying mode? It's hardly a secret.

The point about the Red Bull drivers' quote was to expose the claim that its somehow a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
justmoi wrote:
This special engine mode we keep hearing about.. Let's see.

Lewis Q2 1.30.977 Q3 1.30.076

Kimi Q2 1.30.926 Q3 1.30.121

So similar jump if you ask me. Point is EVERYONE turns up their engine for Q3. I could give a hundred examples of similar patterns, even including midfield teams. But go do your own research. Everyone turns up the power for final run. 'Special quali' mode is just running at max power and boost, which naturally you can run for one quick lap but not 56 obviously due to reliability.

It's getting ridiculous the way some talk about Mercedes 'special quali mode'.

This special quali mode does not seem to be helping Bottas though. The magic button that just carries Mercedes past everyone else


You have to remember that the "special qualifying mode" is a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans. It helps explain their consistent lack of pace in Q3.

Wasn't aware the Red Bull guys were Ferrari fans, but good to know:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/130060/mercedes-qualifying-power-cary--ricciardo

How do you explain Kimi's jump in performance and the fact that Bottas did not improve, Red Bull complain about engines, nothing new.

Are you seriously contending that Mercedes don't have a special qualifying mode? It's hardly a secret.

The point about the Red Bull drivers' quote was to expose the claim that its somehow a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans

It's hardly a secret that Ferrari have one as well but the rhetoric is always to play up the Mercedes advantage in order to play down any pole positions, do you really think this made Hamilton's car faster than the Ferrari?

The Red Bull drivers also talk of the Ferrari qualifying mode but well done on finding an article were the complaint is just about Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:

You have to remember that the "special qualifying mode" is a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans. It helps explain their consistent lack of pace in Q3.

Wasn't aware the Red Bull guys were Ferrari fans, but good to know:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/130060/mercedes-qualifying-power-cary--ricciardo

How do you explain Kimi's jump in performance and the fact that Bottas did not improve, Red Bull complain about engines, nothing new.

Are you seriously contending that Mercedes don't have a special qualifying mode? It's hardly a secret.

The point about the Red Bull drivers' quote was to expose the claim that its somehow a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans

It's hardly a secret that Ferrari have one as well but the rhetoric is always to play up the Mercedes advantage in order to play down any pole positions, do you really think this made Hamilton's car faster than the Ferrari?

The Red Bull drivers also talk of the Ferrari qualifying mode but well done on finding an article were the complaint is just about Mercedes.

Look at the post I was responding to. It might make things a little clearer for you.

Everybody, bar Honda, has a special qualifying mode AFAIAA. But it's common knowledge that the Mercedes one is the best. I don't see any point in denying that


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Wasn't aware the Red Bull guys were Ferrari fans, but good to know:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/130060/mercedes-qualifying-power-cary--ricciardo

How do you explain Kimi's jump in performance and the fact that Bottas did not improve, Red Bull complain about engines, nothing new.

Are you seriously contending that Mercedes don't have a special qualifying mode? It's hardly a secret.

The point about the Red Bull drivers' quote was to expose the claim that its somehow a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans

It's hardly a secret that Ferrari have one as well but the rhetoric is always to play up the Mercedes advantage in order to play down any pole positions, do you really think this made Hamilton's car faster than the Ferrari?

The Red Bull drivers also talk of the Ferrari qualifying mode but well done on finding an article were the complaint is just about Mercedes.

Look at the post I was responding to. It might make things a little clearer for you.

Everybody, bar Honda, has a special qualifying mode AFAIAA. But it's common knowledge that the Mercedes one is the best. I don't see any point in denying that

You can't actually quantify the difference also the performance is derived from the car, engine and driver, the engine might give Mercedes 1 tenth but the car might give Ferrari 2 tenths, I think it's quite absurd to default a Mercedes pole purely down to an equipment advantage based purely on the engine, do you seriously think that Hamilton needs an advantage over Kimi to out qualify him by less than a tenth of a second?

In respect to Red Bull obviously they have an engine disadvantage but not only to Mercedes but also to Ferrari, when Vettel qualified on pole 3 tenths clear of the Bulls in Singapore I didn't hear any talk of qualifying engine modes to discredit Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:18 am 
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Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Some people might find it strange but for me Monaco was the first indication he would find his feet. It was the first time his characteristic pace showed. Sure he made errors, lots of drivers do, and you can work on that, but pace is something not everybody has.

Either way good performance today. Really finding his feet and I very much agree his performances are going under the radar somewhat.

Hoping for McLaren to start giving him some decent strategies now because he could've had a few more points by now.
Watching qualifying I thought about a troubling possibility; that Alonso is now involved in a tactical game that might help him loosen his ties with McLaren. That would take some of the shine off Stoffel's performance, but it is undeniable that Stoffel is doing very well indeed. I wish I could see how his racing is covered by British channels, but I'm allergic to paywalls for watching high-speed advertising.


Not sure what you mean by the Alonso bit, I think he just ballsed up S3, he was up on Stoff in both S1 and S2 with PB's I believe but the British thing I can answer. Since Spa they've talked about him much more and about the job he's done closing up but before that it kind of went under the radar like with a lot of folks. Gave him big props on Sky for yesterday.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:59 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Everybody, bar Honda, has a special qualifying mode AFAIAA. But it's common knowledge that the Mercedes one is the best. I don't see any point in denying that

Honda have one. And theirs might actually be quite good because both McLaren drivers seem to be able to get better results on Saturdays than on Sundays.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:03 am 
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Yeah they had one from Spa last year. Might not have had one at the start of this year for this unit though, I'm unsure.

But they've definitely got one now and it's worth 4ths. Alonso lost his in Singapore and this was the quoted amount lost. I think the others are just worth more and can be used at will in the race.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How do you explain Kimi's jump in performance and the fact that Bottas did not improve, Red Bull complain about engines, nothing new.

Are you seriously contending that Mercedes don't have a special qualifying mode? It's hardly a secret.

The point about the Red Bull drivers' quote was to expose the claim that its somehow a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans

It's hardly a secret that Ferrari have one as well but the rhetoric is always to play up the Mercedes advantage in order to play down any pole positions, do you really think this made Hamilton's car faster than the Ferrari?

The Red Bull drivers also talk of the Ferrari qualifying mode but well done on finding an article were the complaint is just about Mercedes.

Look at the post I was responding to. It might make things a little clearer for you.

Everybody, bar Honda, has a special qualifying mode AFAIAA. But it's common knowledge that the Mercedes one is the best. I don't see any point in denying that

You can't actually quantify the difference also the performance is derived from the car, engine and driver, the engine might give Mercedes 1 tenth but the car might give Ferrari 2 tenths, I think it's quite absurd to default a Mercedes pole purely down to an equipment advantage based purely on the engine, do you seriously think that Hamilton needs an advantage over Kimi to out qualify him by less than a tenth of a second?

In respect to Red Bull obviously they have an engine disadvantage but not only to Mercedes but also to Ferrari, when Vettel qualified on pole 3 tenths clear of the Bulls in Singapore I didn't hear any talk of qualifying engine modes to discredit Vettel.

I'm quite happy to say that Vettel/Ferrari has a qualifying advantage over the Red Bulls. No issues there at all. The Ferrari engine has a better qualifying mode than the Renault. Now how about you..?


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