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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:07 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Everybody, bar Honda, has a special qualifying mode AFAIAA. But it's common knowledge that the Mercedes one is the best. I don't see any point in denying that

Honda have one. And theirs might actually be quite good because both McLaren drivers seem to be able to get better results on Saturdays than on Sundays.

wasn't aware of that, thanks. Seems I'm a bit behind the times on that one


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:09 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Yeah they had one from Spa last year. Might not have had one at the start of this year for this unit though, I'm unsure.

But they've definitely got one now and it's worth 4ths. Alonso lost his in Singapore and this was the quoted amount lost. I think the others are just worth more and can be used at will in the race.

I was convinced they didn't have one, let alone that it was so good. But does go some way to explaining Alonso in qualifying

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Are you seriously contending that Mercedes don't have a special qualifying mode? It's hardly a secret.

The point about the Red Bull drivers' quote was to expose the claim that its somehow a comfort mechanism for Ferrari fans

It's hardly a secret that Ferrari have one as well but the rhetoric is always to play up the Mercedes advantage in order to play down any pole positions, do you really think this made Hamilton's car faster than the Ferrari?

The Red Bull drivers also talk of the Ferrari qualifying mode but well done on finding an article were the complaint is just about Mercedes.

Look at the post I was responding to. It might make things a little clearer for you.

Everybody, bar Honda, has a special qualifying mode AFAIAA. But it's common knowledge that the Mercedes one is the best. I don't see any point in denying that

You can't actually quantify the difference also the performance is derived from the car, engine and driver, the engine might give Mercedes 1 tenth but the car might give Ferrari 2 tenths, I think it's quite absurd to default a Mercedes pole purely down to an equipment advantage based purely on the engine, do you seriously think that Hamilton needs an advantage over Kimi to out qualify him by less than a tenth of a second?

In respect to Red Bull obviously they have an engine disadvantage but not only to Mercedes but also to Ferrari, when Vettel qualified on pole 3 tenths clear of the Bulls in Singapore I didn't hear any talk of qualifying engine modes to discredit Vettel.

I'm quite happy to say that Vettel/Ferrari has a qualifying advantage over the Red Bulls. No issues there at all. The Ferrari engine has a better qualifying mode than the Renault. Now how about you..?

Maybe if you was a Verstappen fan you would have brought it up at the time to discredit Vettel's pole position?

I think I already put forward that Mercedes had an advantage over Ferrari with the qualifying mode however you didn't address everything I said, once again it being 100% all about the engine.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's hardly a secret that Ferrari have one as well but the rhetoric is always to play up the Mercedes advantage in order to play down any pole positions, do you really think this made Hamilton's car faster than the Ferrari?

The Red Bull drivers also talk of the Ferrari qualifying mode but well done on finding an article were the complaint is just about Mercedes.

Look at the post I was responding to. It might make things a little clearer for you.

Everybody, bar Honda, has a special qualifying mode AFAIAA. But it's common knowledge that the Mercedes one is the best. I don't see any point in denying that

You can't actually quantify the difference also the performance is derived from the car, engine and driver, the engine might give Mercedes 1 tenth but the car might give Ferrari 2 tenths, I think it's quite absurd to default a Mercedes pole purely down to an equipment advantage based purely on the engine, do you seriously think that Hamilton needs an advantage over Kimi to out qualify him by less than a tenth of a second?

In respect to Red Bull obviously they have an engine disadvantage but not only to Mercedes but also to Ferrari, when Vettel qualified on pole 3 tenths clear of the Bulls in Singapore I didn't hear any talk of qualifying engine modes to discredit Vettel.

I'm quite happy to say that Vettel/Ferrari has a qualifying advantage over the Red Bulls. No issues there at all. The Ferrari engine has a better qualifying mode than the Renault. Now how about you..?

Maybe if you was a Verstappen fan you would have brought it up at the time to discredit Vettel's pole position?

I think I already put forward that Mercedes had an advantage over Ferrari with the qualifying mode however you didn't address everything I said, once again it being 100% all about the engine.

well, no, I don't think you did. You conceded that the engine might give Mercedes a tenth but then basically dismissed that by saying the car gave Ferrari two tenths, which is frankly not admitting anything at all. On the contrary, you're making out that the Mercedes is at some sort of disadvantage, for which words fail me...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:44 am 
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The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:00 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:05 am 
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Everyone has a qualli mode, even you on your road car. You normally drive within limits, but in exceptional conditions you hit the red line and stay on it, that is your qualli mode. In other words, pushing the engine into the region it is not usually used using more fuel and high damage probability.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:31 am 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?


Have you not seen how much better Renault perform in Quali than they do in the race? Hulkenberg drops back almost every Sunday.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:53 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?


Have you not seen how much better Renault perform in Quali than they do in the race? Hulkenberg drops back almost every Sunday.

Are you specifically talking to the Renault works team? Because once Q3 starts Red Bull can typically forget about going for pole, regardless of if they were setting quick times in Q1 and Q2. And everyone knows the Red Bull drivers are no slouches prone to dropping the ball when the pressure is on

For a good chuckle have a look back at the gains made by the pole sitter from Q2 to Q3 and compare to the Red Bulls in GPs like Canada and Baku and the most recent GPs just gone - Singapore and Malaysia

It's not unreasonable to suggest that the Renault works team has a car that performs better over one lap than on race day (in Hulk's hands at least). Or perhaps it's just Hulk that's making the difference. Palmer doesn't usually stick his car higher than it belongs on the grid

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:34 am 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?


Have you not seen how much better Renault perform in Quali than they do in the race? Hulkenberg drops back almost every Sunday.

Are you specifically talking to the Renault works team? Because once Q3 starts Red Bull can typically forget about going for pole, regardless of if they were setting quick times in Q1 and Q2. And everyone knows the Red Bull drivers are no slouches prone to dropping the ball when the pressure is on

For a good chuckle have a look back at the gains made by the pole sitter from Q2 to Q3 and compare to the Red Bulls in GPs like Canada and Baku and the most recent GPs just gone - Singapore and Malaysia

It's not unreasonable to suggest that the Renault works team has a car that performs better over one lap than on race day (in Hulk's hands at least). Or perhaps it's just Hulk that's making the difference. Palmer doesn't usually stick his car higher than it belongs on the grid


Specifically the Renault works team. In the same way that nobody is referring to FI or Williams when they talk about the Merc quali engine mode.

For Palmer see Bottas.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Look at the post I was responding to. It might make things a little clearer for you.

Everybody, bar Honda, has a special qualifying mode AFAIAA. But it's common knowledge that the Mercedes one is the best. I don't see any point in denying that

You can't actually quantify the difference also the performance is derived from the car, engine and driver, the engine might give Mercedes 1 tenth but the car might give Ferrari 2 tenths, I think it's quite absurd to default a Mercedes pole purely down to an equipment advantage based purely on the engine, do you seriously think that Hamilton needs an advantage over Kimi to out qualify him by less than a tenth of a second?

In respect to Red Bull obviously they have an engine disadvantage but not only to Mercedes but also to Ferrari, when Vettel qualified on pole 3 tenths clear of the Bulls in Singapore I didn't hear any talk of qualifying engine modes to discredit Vettel.

I'm quite happy to say that Vettel/Ferrari has a qualifying advantage over the Red Bulls. No issues there at all. The Ferrari engine has a better qualifying mode than the Renault. Now how about you..?

Maybe if you was a Verstappen fan you would have brought it up at the time to discredit Vettel's pole position?

I think I already put forward that Mercedes had an advantage over Ferrari with the qualifying mode however you didn't address everything I said, once again it being 100% all about the engine.

well, no, I don't think you did. You conceded that the engine might give Mercedes a tenth but then basically dismissed that by saying the car gave Ferrari two tenths, which is frankly not admitting anything at all. On the contrary, you're making out that the Mercedes is at some sort of disadvantage, for which words fail me...

Whilst all credible experts say that the Mercedes was only the third fastest car in Malaysia yet I astound you with that notion.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:16 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Sarcasm perhaps?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?


Have you not seen how much better Renault perform in Quali than they do in the race? Hulkenberg drops back almost every Sunday.

Is that more to do with how the car uses it's tyres though?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?


Have you not seen how much better Renault perform in Quali than they do in the race? Hulkenberg drops back almost every Sunday.

Are you specifically talking to the Renault works team? Because once Q3 starts Red Bull can typically forget about going for pole, regardless of if they were setting quick times in Q1 and Q2. And everyone knows the Red Bull drivers are no slouches prone to dropping the ball when the pressure is on

For a good chuckle have a look back at the gains made by the pole sitter from Q2 to Q3 and compare to the Red Bulls in GPs like Canada and Baku and the most recent GPs just gone - Singapore and Malaysia

It's not unreasonable to suggest that the Renault works team has a car that performs better over one lap than on race day (in Hulk's hands at least). Or perhaps it's just Hulk that's making the difference. Palmer doesn't usually stick his car higher than it belongs on the grid


Specifically the Renault works team. In the same way that nobody is referring to FI or Williams when they talk about the Merc quali engine mode.

For Palmer see Bottas.

Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:36 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:

Interesting that Perez cut a corner and went from 12th to 4th.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?


I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?


Have you not seen how much better Renault perform in Quali than they do in the race? Hulkenberg drops back almost every Sunday.

Is that more to do with how the car uses it's tyres though?


Why would it be?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Interesting that Perez cut a corner and went from 12th to 4th.


Wildly misleading statement.

One of those positions was gained by cutting the corner. Pretty standard fair for Singapore.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.


It absolutely does. The Q3 mode is the oil burn mode on the Mercedes and Ferrari and it's not even known for sure Renault even use oil at all, and if so it's not anywhere near as good as those two who have been doing it since 2014 and 2015 respectively.

It's not clear if customers have access to that mode because of the increased reliability concern it brings and the Williams and F1 just aren't as good but they still have better modes than say McLaren and STR but you won't notice it as much between Q2&Q3 because they're all already going all out in Q2 rather than holding back until Q3 like the big 3 teams.

I think Renault (works) and Hulk in particular are just very strong over 1 lap but there's always the chance Renault are testing their own oil burn modes but Red Bull would soon find out and start shouting about it if it was kept from them and RB definitely don't have as powerful a map in Q3 as Mercedes and Ferrari, it's the one thing they keep moaning about.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?


Have you not seen how much better Renault perform in Quali than they do in the race? Hulkenberg drops back almost every Sunday.

Are you specifically talking to the Renault works team? Because once Q3 starts Red Bull can typically forget about going for pole, regardless of if they were setting quick times in Q1 and Q2. And everyone knows the Red Bull drivers are no slouches prone to dropping the ball when the pressure is on

For a good chuckle have a look back at the gains made by the pole sitter from Q2 to Q3 and compare to the Red Bulls in GPs like Canada and Baku and the most recent GPs just gone - Singapore and Malaysia

It's not unreasonable to suggest that the Renault works team has a car that performs better over one lap than on race day (in Hulk's hands at least). Or perhaps it's just Hulk that's making the difference. Palmer doesn't usually stick his car higher than it belongs on the grid


Specifically the Renault works team. In the same way that nobody is referring to FI or Williams when they talk about the Merc quali engine mode.

For Palmer see Bottas.

Looking at all dry qualys where a works Renault made Q3, I don't see any big improvement in laptimes like the factory Merc & Ferrari teams are achieving. China, Bahrain, Russia, Canada, Hungary, Spa, Singapore, Malaysia - there's no evidence from any of those qualy sessions that Renault can turn the wick up in Q3

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:55 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Looking at all dry qualys where a works Renault made Q3, I don't see any big improvement in laptimes like the factory Merc & Ferrari teams are achieving. China, Bahrain, Russia, Canada, Hungary, Spa, Singapore, Malaysia - there's no evidence from any of those qualy sessions that Renault can turn the wick up in Q3


I would theorise that Renault are using the quali mode in Q2 as well because they need it to guarantee going through to Q3.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?


I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The Ferrari engine absolutely does not have a better quali mode than the Renault's. Look how much better they are in quali than the race. I think Renault's quali mode is better than Mercedes let alone Ferrari's.

Did I wake up in a parallel universe where everything is opposite?


Have you not seen how much better Renault perform in Quali than they do in the race? Hulkenberg drops back almost every Sunday.

Is that more to do with how the car uses it's tyres though?


Why would it be?

An example would be the 2013 Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Interesting that Perez cut a corner and went from 12th to 4th.


Wildly misleading statement.

One of those positions was gained by cutting the corner. Pretty standard fair for Singapore.

I read the comments underneath which said that, Perez come back onto the track in front of Bottas who basically qualified 3rd given that 3 cars in front crashed into one another.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Interesting that Perez cut a corner and went from 12th to 4th.


Wildly misleading statement.

One of those positions was gained by cutting the corner. Pretty standard fair for Singapore.

I read the comments underneath which said that, Perez come back onto the track in front of Bottas who basically qualified 3rd given that 3 cars in front crashed into one another.


Which is true but he went into the corner along side Bottas so he only gained one position by skipping the corner. That's one more than he should but in past Singapore races drivers have gained more.

As I said, to make it sound like he gained a multitude of places off track is very misleading.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Interesting that Perez cut a corner and went from 12th to 4th.


Wildly misleading statement.

One of those positions was gained by cutting the corner. Pretty standard fair for Singapore.

I read the comments underneath which said that, Perez come back onto the track in front of Bottas who basically qualified 3rd given that 3 cars in front crashed into one another.


Which is true but he went into the corner along side Bottas so he only gained one position by skipping the corner. That's one more than he should but in past Singapore races drivers have gained more.

As I said, to make it sound like he gained a multitude of places off track is very misleading.

No I was just mislead by one of the comments.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?


I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:55 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Looking at all dry qualys where a works Renault made Q3, I don't see any big improvement in laptimes like the factory Merc & Ferrari teams are achieving. China, Bahrain, Russia, Canada, Hungary, Spa, Singapore, Malaysia - there's no evidence from any of those qualy sessions that Renault can turn the wick up in Q3


I would theorise that Renault are using the quali mode in Q2 as well because they need it to guarantee going through to Q3.


That's a good point.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?


I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.


You can't say Bottas was poor in the race in Italy. He was about half a second down which isn't great during both of the qualifying laps. But if we say Hamilon is outstanding, those times were not terrible from Bottas. He actually was quicker than Hamilton in Q2 and he just didn't bring Q3 together. That was his weak moment of the weekend. In the race, Bottas was within 5 seconds of Hamilton pretty much the whole time. This showed Hamilton had control and could have probably been quicker. Mercedes confirmed though that both had been tuned down. We have no evidence that Hamilton was a huge amount better that race.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:18 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?


I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.

Which corresponds basically to the Ferrari having been the faster car, Bottas was still 2-2 against Kimi in qualifying, when Mercedes had the faster car in Monza Bottas beat Kimi by 55 seconds.

The gaps between Bottas and Hamilton have been massive but then again so have the gaps between Kimi and Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?


I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.

Which corresponds basically to the Ferrari having been the faster car, Bottas was still 2-2 against Kimi in qualifying, when Mercedes had the faster car in Monza Bottas beat Kimi by 55 seconds.

The gaps between Bottas and Hamilton have been massive but then again so have the gaps between Kimi and Vettel.

How? The comparison being made was between team mates. The relative pace of the cars is surely not relevant?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:42 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?


I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.


You can't say Bottas was poor in the race in Italy. He was about half a second down which isn't great during both of the qualifying laps. But if we say Hamilon is outstanding, those times were not terrible from Bottas. He actually was quicker than Hamilton in Q2 and he just didn't bring Q3 together. That was his weak moment of the weekend. In the race, Bottas was within 5 seconds of Hamilton pretty much the whole time. This showed Hamilton had control and could have probably been quicker. Mercedes confirmed though that both had been tuned down. We have no evidence that Hamilton was a huge amount better that race.


Fair enough about Monza race pace if both had their cars turned down.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:01 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.

Which corresponds basically to the Ferrari having been the faster car, Bottas was still 2-2 against Kimi in qualifying, when Mercedes had the faster car in Monza Bottas beat Kimi by 55 seconds.

The gaps between Bottas and Hamilton have been massive but then again so have the gaps between Kimi and Vettel.

How? The comparison being made was between team mates. The relative pace of the cars is surely not relevant?

It colours the perception of performance if one car has been better than the other and in the 4 races what have we to go on anyway when Kimi's not completed one lap in 2 of the races, so we have 1 race were Bottas finished 55 seconds in front of Kimi and another race were Bottas finished right behind Kimi whilst Vettel finished right behind Hamilton, so in comparson to their teammates one race Bottas was better than Kimi and the other race they were equal..

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Are you saying that the Hulk and Hamilton get a mode that their teammates don't?


I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.

Which corresponds basically to the Ferrari having been the faster car, Bottas was still 2-2 against Kimi in qualifying, when Mercedes had the faster car in Monza Bottas beat Kimi by 55 seconds.

The gaps between Bottas and Hamilton have been massive but then again so have the gaps between Kimi and Vettel.


2-2 including a weekend Ferrari disappeared in Monza. Malaysia Ferrari had the Q advantage imo but Mercedes didn't disappear like Monza really. In that period...

Bottas avg difference to Lewis including Monza is over a second in quali but discounting it is 0.635 adrift
Kimi difference to Seb is 0.5 but he won his q battle in Italy which would bring it down some(About 3ths) but I discounted it and Seb didn't qualify in Malaysia so there was only 2 results.

Clearly Kimi has done better. There really should be no reason to discount Italy as it was the same conditions for both and Kimi had a worse car but I know you exclude wet results so showed both.

Harder to do for the race as Kimi again only got two results but he "won" in Spa and lost in Monza. The cars were a lot closer in Spa but they both did win the one they should.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:20 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I am saying that Palmer and Bottas are not as good as most of the drivers around them so are not really able to show the true performance of their package.

Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.

Which corresponds basically to the Ferrari having been the faster car, Bottas was still 2-2 against Kimi in qualifying, when Mercedes had the faster car in Monza Bottas beat Kimi by 55 seconds.

The gaps between Bottas and Hamilton have been massive but then again so have the gaps between Kimi and Vettel.


2-2 including a weekend Ferrari disappeared in Monza. Malaysia Ferrari had the Q advantage imo but Mercedes didn't disappear like Monza really. In that period...

Bottas avg difference to Lewis including Monza is over a second in quali but discounting it is 0.635 adrift
Kimi difference to Seb is 0.5 but he won his q battle in Italy which would bring it down some(About 3ths) but I discounted it and Seb didn't qualify in Malaysia so there was only 2 results.

Clearly Kimi has done better. There really should be no reason to discount Italy as it was the same conditions for both and Kimi had a worse car but I know you exclude wet results so showed both.

Harder to do for the race as Kimi again only got two results but he "won" in Spa and lost in Monza. The cars were a lot closer in Spa but they both did win the one they should.

I have it as 0.6s for Bottas and 0.53s for Kimi then you have to think who is the better qualifier Hamilton or Vettel, that's hardly Kimi doing miles better.

In Monza Kimi was much further behind Vettel than Bottas was behind Hamilton so that's one for Bottas, in Spa Hamilton and Vettel were running together whilst similar Kimi and Bottas were running together, I think that would be clutching at straws to say that Kimi was better because he was 2 seconds in front.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Bottas is not as good as Kimi?


Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.

Which corresponds basically to the Ferrari having been the faster car, Bottas was still 2-2 against Kimi in qualifying, when Mercedes had the faster car in Monza Bottas beat Kimi by 55 seconds.

The gaps between Bottas and Hamilton have been massive but then again so have the gaps between Kimi and Vettel.


2-2 including a weekend Ferrari disappeared in Monza. Malaysia Ferrari had the Q advantage imo but Mercedes didn't disappear like Monza really. In that period...

Bottas avg difference to Lewis including Monza is over a second in quali but discounting it is 0.635 adrift
Kimi difference to Seb is 0.5 but he won his q battle in Italy which would bring it down some(About 3ths) but I discounted it and Seb didn't qualify in Malaysia so there was only 2 results.

Clearly Kimi has done better. There really should be no reason to discount Italy as it was the same conditions for both and Kimi had a worse car but I know you exclude wet results so showed both.

Harder to do for the race as Kimi again only got two results but he "won" in Spa and lost in Monza. The cars were a lot closer in Spa but they both did win the one they should.

I have it as 0.6s for Bottas and 0.53s for Kimi then you have to think who is the better qualifier Hamilton or Vettel, that's hardly Kimi doing miles better.

In Monza Kimi was much further behind Vettel than Bottas was behind Hamilton so that's one for Bottas, in Spa Hamilton and Vettel were running together whilst similar Kimi and Bottas were running together, I think that would be clutching at straws to say that Kimi was better because he was 2 seconds in front.


It is when Kimi has a win over Seb that would halve his gap for the same amount of results and the full results would have him 7ths closer than Bottas. I do agree Lewis is quicker than Seb though.

Kimi was poor again in Monza, no excuse. In Spa he got the job done, quicker than Bottas, passed him and was closer to Seb than Bottas was to Lewis.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:42 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Lately it's not even close, Kimi easily. (Since summer break).

I'd argue even since Monaco Kimi has been more consistent and closer to Seb than Botttas has been to Lewis but I'm open to being swayed back the way on that one as I'm sure there are things I've missed and I know the Merc boys have a more problematic car to set up but it's just the feeling I've got.

Kimi has zero luck and keeps getting in tangles outside his control whereas Bottas keeps getting get out of jail free cards like Baku,Monza and Singapore where he was poor but keeps getting podiums from it.

Which corresponds basically to the Ferrari having been the faster car, Bottas was still 2-2 against Kimi in qualifying, when Mercedes had the faster car in Monza Bottas beat Kimi by 55 seconds.

The gaps between Bottas and Hamilton have been massive but then again so have the gaps between Kimi and Vettel.


2-2 including a weekend Ferrari disappeared in Monza. Malaysia Ferrari had the Q advantage imo but Mercedes didn't disappear like Monza really. In that period...

Bottas avg difference to Lewis including Monza is over a second in quali but discounting it is 0.635 adrift
Kimi difference to Seb is 0.5 but he won his q battle in Italy which would bring it down some(About 3ths) but I discounted it and Seb didn't qualify in Malaysia so there was only 2 results.

Clearly Kimi has done better. There really should be no reason to discount Italy as it was the same conditions for both and Kimi had a worse car but I know you exclude wet results so showed both.

Harder to do for the race as Kimi again only got two results but he "won" in Spa and lost in Monza. The cars were a lot closer in Spa but they both did win the one they should.

I have it as 0.6s for Bottas and 0.53s for Kimi then you have to think who is the better qualifier Hamilton or Vettel, that's hardly Kimi doing miles better.

In Monza Kimi was much further behind Vettel than Bottas was behind Hamilton so that's one for Bottas, in Spa Hamilton and Vettel were running together whilst similar Kimi and Bottas were running together, I think that would be clutching at straws to say that Kimi was better because he was 2 seconds in front.


It is when Kimi has a win over Seb that would halve his gap for the same amount of results and the full results would have him 7ths closer than Bottas. I do agree Lewis is quicker than Seb though.

Kimi was poor again in Monza, no excuse. In Spa he got the job done, quicker than Bottas, passed him and was closer to Seb than Bottas was to Lewis.

Well you're talking about wet qualifying and basically Bottas is not as good in the wet as Hamilton, if you want to say Bottas is poor in those conditions then I have no defence for him and that goes back to his Williams days as well, however in the race he was much better than Kimi.

I can't remember Spa did Kimi pass Bottas on the track, I guess i have to concede that generally speaking Kimi was stronger than Bottas, Spa being one of his best tracks, even though there were thoughts that the Ferrari was a bit better on raceday.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:56 pm 
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It was a bit better yeah and I think the pass was on the SC restart when Dan went past both but I might be wrong there.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
It was a bit better yeah and I think the pass was on the SC restart when Dan went past both but I might be wrong there.

Bottas had a poor restart and that allowed both Ricciardo and Kimi through. Bottas was then stuck fairly close behind Kimi but couldn't get past. Until the safety car, Bottas had been quicker than Kimi and Ricciardo. And I have to say he did a better job of not doing anything wrong over Kimi. Kimi got a drive through penalty for failing to slow down when Verstppen retiring had brought out yellow flags. He said he wasn't close to the incident but he didn't slow down. His pace did look pretty strong, But I'm not convinced it was better than Bottas. Kimi then totally escaped the fact he's been given a penalty and closed that gap right back up. But he made the most of the restart and performed very well here. But if there was no safety car, his penalty will have quite possible cost him much more. So it has to be said that Kimi has had some luck in terms of getting away with what was supposed to peanalise him but effectively didn't.

But what you are commenting on is the pace and I don't think there was that much in it, but I do think Bottas was marginally better until his mistake at the end.


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