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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:34 am 
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Bottas did a good job of testing those upgrades for a whole race distance :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:50 am 
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He was barely faster than Perez in a Force India which would be a huge worry.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:57 am 
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Bottas was bad today, but Vettel in that Ferrari was favourite today. Vettel was in P11 by lap 3.
Once again, Bottas close to maximum points from the Mercedes unless we expect him to match Hamilton pace wise, P4 was the maximum. Mercedes essentially seal WCC today too.

I think his very remote title challenge 100% ended today. HAM could have 3/4 DNFs and Bottas won't catch him.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:10 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
He was barely faster than Perez in a Force India which would be a huge worry.

I think the reason for this is very obvious. Toto clearly didn't seem happy when asked about the difference between Bottas and Hamilton, but from the words he used as well as his expression, you could sort of tell that he was much more unhappy with the way this upgrade had gone rather than Bottas's performance. I think the fact that Bottas was nearly 45 seconds behind Hamilton with no obvious mistakes somehow makes it a bit unfair to assume that this was all due to Bottas under performing. A large chink of it was yes, but I think these new parts have made the car a lot worse. Hamilton made the right choice to use the old parts. Even more evidence is that perez wasn't far off in terms of Pace. I personally think it is unlikely that Perez's pace was a lot better than Bottas's that race, I just think it is even more evidence that this just hasn't worked out. But Bottas did have a very good start and pretty much prevented Ricciardo from being a threat to Hamilton at any point in he race. Since he was faster than Verstappen and Hamilton at one point when he got past Bottas, this showed that Bottas may have still helped out quite a bit here. He may not be getting as many points as he could, but there is no doubt he's being a pretty good team player towards Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:16 am 
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lamo wrote:
Bottas was bad today, but Vettel in that Ferrari was favourite today. Vettel was in P11 by lap 3.
Once again, Bottas close to maximum points from the Mercedes unless we expect him to match Hamilton pace wise, P4 was the maximum. Mercedes essentially seal WCC today too.

I think his very remote title challenge 100% ended today. HAM could have 3/4 DNFs and Bottas won't catch him.


Bottas was a pitstop behind Vettel before he turned the engine down in the latter stages, like I said in the how well Rosberg will be doing thread Bottas is a very poor driver, Vettel started absolutely dead last.

It just goes to show earlier in the season, it wasn't Bottas being good but Hamilton was poor.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:24 am 
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In Bottas defense the car is a bit of a tyre diva this year but Rosberg was special/unique in his own particular way and was always a No.1 driver whereas Bottas is more in the No.1.5 driver mode like say Button was, at least for now.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:56 am 
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Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was bad today, but Vettel in that Ferrari was favourite today. Vettel was in P11 by lap 3.
Once again, Bottas close to maximum points from the Mercedes unless we expect him to match Hamilton pace wise, P4 was the maximum. Mercedes essentially seal WCC today too.

I think his very remote title challenge 100% ended today. HAM could have 3/4 DNFs and Bottas won't catch him.


Bottas was a pitstop behind Vettel before he turned the engine down in the latter stages, like I said in the how well Rosberg will be doing thread Bottas is a very poor driver, Vettel started absolutely dead last.

It just goes to show earlier in the season, it wasn't Bottas being good but Hamilton was poor.


I can't really agree with this. There certainly were several races where Bottas was good. If we call Bottas poor now and say he poor then too just because Hamilton was worse, then doesn't that mean that Hamilton had several really really really poor weekends? And by his usual standards, then that should make them even worse. And in this case, then Hamilton's season as a whole has been severely overrated. This judgement just doesn't make much sense. Bottas was pretty good at the beginning. Hamilton was quite a bit better but did have several off weekends. Hamilton's low point of the season at a single race cost him more than any of Bottas's performances at a single race. So Hamilton qualified much worse than Bottas has at any point as well as finishing a race lower than any Bottas has and this was completely his own fault.

I can agree now, there is a very big gap between these 2. But Bottas is doing a pretty solid job at being a team player and he really isn't doing that badly overall. After all, this track we did consider the Red Bulls and Ferrari's to be better, and he did end up finishing about where the car was expected to. But Hamilton got more out of it. But people say he stands out from the rest a lot of the time, so a big difference between him and Bottas has to be expected sometimes. That shouldn't always mean Bottas is poor. He wasn't great this race. Vettel was much better, but I am certain these upgrades on Bottas's car have made it go backwards rather than forwards. Considering that Hamilton said he wasn't trying his best this race, that could mean that Hamilton could have possibly finished nearly a minute ahead of Bottas. I think that is a bit unrealistic to say that this would be the pace difference between the 2. The gap in Singapore was large due to Bottas being poor. He wasn't great here either but I think a large part of it was down to the car. He's still showing he is strong at times in the race though as he pretty much prevented Ricciardo from challenging Hamilton because of his good start.




Lamo, I don't quite understand what you mean about Hamilton retireing 3 to 4 times and Bottas still not being able to finish ahead of Hamilton in the championship. If Hamilton retires in the next 2 races and finished 3rd in the one after and Bottas wins all 3, then Bottas will be ahead by a point with 2 races remaining. It is so unlikely to happen but if Hamilton has 4 retirements, I don't understand how Bottas certainly won't be ahead of him as you are implying. If Hamilton had 3 and Bottas won twice and finished 2nd all 3 times which I think would be unlikely if Hamilton wasn't there, he would only be 5 points behind. So if you include the 4th retirement, I don't know how you could possibly think Bottas won't be able to go past him in the standings.

A very much doubt any of this will happen. I just don't quite understand how Bottas couldn't beat Hamilton if this was the situation.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:26 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was bad today, but Vettel in that Ferrari was favourite today. Vettel was in P11 by lap 3.
Once again, Bottas close to maximum points from the Mercedes unless we expect him to match Hamilton pace wise, P4 was the maximum. Mercedes essentially seal WCC today too.

I think his very remote title challenge 100% ended today. HAM could have 3/4 DNFs and Bottas won't catch him.


Bottas was a pitstop behind Vettel before he turned the engine down in the latter stages, like I said in the how well Rosberg will be doing thread Bottas is a very poor driver, Vettel started absolutely dead last.

It just goes to show earlier in the season, it wasn't Bottas being good but Hamilton was poor.


I can't really agree with this. There certainly were several races where Bottas was good. If we call Bottas poor now and say he poor then too just because Hamilton was worse, then doesn't that mean that Hamilton had several really really really poor weekends? And by his usual standards, then that should make them even worse. And in this case, then Hamilton's season as a whole has been severely overrated. This judgement just doesn't make much sense. Bottas was pretty good at the beginning. Hamilton was quite a bit better but did have several off weekends. Hamilton's low point of the season at a single race cost him more than any of Bottas's performances at a single race. So Hamilton qualified much worse than Bottas has at any point as well as finishing a race lower than any Bottas has and this was completely his own fault.

I can agree now, there is a very big gap between these 2. But Bottas is doing a pretty solid job at being a team player and he really isn't doing that badly overall. After all, this track we did consider the Red Bulls and Ferrari's to be better, and he did end up finishing about where the car was expected to. But Hamilton got more out of it. But people say he stands out from the rest a lot of the time, so a big difference between him and Bottas has to be expected sometimes. That shouldn't always mean Bottas is poor. He wasn't great this race. Vettel was much better, but I am certain these upgrades on Bottas's car have made it go backwards rather than forwards. Considering that Hamilton said he wasn't trying his best this race, that could mean that Hamilton could have possibly finished nearly a minute ahead of Bottas. I think that is a bit unrealistic to say that this would be the pace difference between the 2. The gap in Singapore was large due to Bottas being poor. He wasn't great here either but I think a large part of it was down to the car. He's still showing he is strong at times in the race though as he pretty much prevented Ricciardo from challenging Hamilton because of his good start.




Lamo, I don't quite understand what you mean about Hamilton retireing 3 to 4 times and Bottas still not being able to finish ahead of Hamilton in the championship. If Hamilton retires in the next 2 races and finished 3rd in the one after and Bottas wins all 3, then Bottas will be ahead by a point with 2 races remaining. It is so unlikely to happen but if Hamilton has 4 retirements, I don't understand how Bottas certainly won't be ahead of him as you are implying. If Hamilton had 3 and Bottas won twice and finished 2nd all 3 times which I think would be unlikely if Hamilton wasn't there, he would only be 5 points behind. So if you include the 4th retirement, I don't know how you could possibly think Bottas won't be able to go past him in the standings.

A very much doubt any of this will happen. I just don't quite understand how Bottas couldn't beat Hamilton if this was the situation.


The gap just didn't develop after Canada, also Bahrain Monaco Russia thats what made people think Bottas was a title contender.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:48 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was bad today, but Vettel in that Ferrari was favourite today. Vettel was in P11 by lap 3.
Once again, Bottas close to maximum points from the Mercedes unless we expect him to match Hamilton pace wise, P4 was the maximum. Mercedes essentially seal WCC today too.

I think his very remote title challenge 100% ended today. HAM could have 3/4 DNFs and Bottas won't catch him.


Bottas was a pitstop behind Vettel before he turned the engine down in the latter stages, like I said in the how well Rosberg will be doing thread Bottas is a very poor driver, Vettel started absolutely dead last.

It just goes to show earlier in the season, it wasn't Bottas being good but Hamilton was poor.


I can't really agree with this. There certainly were several races where Bottas was good. If we call Bottas poor now and say he poor then too just because Hamilton was worse, then doesn't that mean that Hamilton had several really really really poor weekends? And by his usual standards, then that should make them even worse. And in this case, then Hamilton's season as a whole has been severely overrated. This judgement just doesn't make much sense. Bottas was pretty good at the beginning. Hamilton was quite a bit better but did have several off weekends. Hamilton's low point of the season at a single race cost him more than any of Bottas's performances at a single race. So Hamilton qualified much worse than Bottas has at any point as well as finishing a race lower than any Bottas has and this was completely his own fault.

I can agree now, there is a very big gap between these 2. But Bottas is doing a pretty solid job at being a team player and he really isn't doing that badly overall. After all, this track we did consider the Red Bulls and Ferrari's to be better, and he did end up finishing about where the car was expected to. But Hamilton got more out of it. But people say he stands out from the rest a lot of the time, so a big difference between him and Bottas has to be expected sometimes. That shouldn't always mean Bottas is poor. He wasn't great this race. Vettel was much better, but I am certain these upgrades on Bottas's car have made it go backwards rather than forwards. Considering that Hamilton said he wasn't trying his best this race, that could mean that Hamilton could have possibly finished nearly a minute ahead of Bottas. I think that is a bit unrealistic to say that this would be the pace difference between the 2. The gap in Singapore was large due to Bottas being poor. He wasn't great here either but I think a large part of it was down to the car. He's still showing he is strong at times in the race though as he pretty much prevented Ricciardo from challenging Hamilton because of his good start.




Lamo, I don't quite understand what you mean about Hamilton retireing 3 to 4 times and Bottas still not being able to finish ahead of Hamilton in the championship. If Hamilton retires in the next 2 races and finished 3rd in the one after and Bottas wins all 3, then Bottas will be ahead by a point with 2 races remaining. It is so unlikely to happen but if Hamilton has 4 retirements, I don't understand how Bottas certainly won't be ahead of him as you are implying. If Hamilton had 3 and Bottas won twice and finished 2nd all 3 times which I think would be unlikely if Hamilton wasn't there, he would only be 5 points behind. So if you include the 4th retirement, I don't know how you could possibly think Bottas won't be able to go past him in the standings.

A very much doubt any of this will happen. I just don't quite understand how Bottas couldn't beat Hamilton if this was the situation.


The gap just didn't develop after Canada, also Bahrain Monaco Russia thats what made people think Bottas was a title contender.

Austria and Hungary? Bottas did very well in qualifying there and Hamilton seemed off a bit somehow. Hamilton didn't even recover to a podium. While when Bottas had a gear box penalty in Britain, even though he did qualify poorly in 4th, he started 9th and finished 2nd. Although I think he will have only been within DRS range of Kimi if Kimi didn't have his tyre blow out. Hamilton started 8th in Austria and seemed to struggle to get past Ricciardo and it is known that the Red Bull struggles here. That weekend, Bottas was clearly a step above Hamilton.

In Hungary, Bottas qualified 1 place ahead of Bottas. That was very important here as this track is incredibly difficult to overtake on. Bottas did enough where he needed to to finish ahead of Hamilton. No matter if Hamilton was quicker than Bottas, it was incredibly unlikely that he will have found a way past. So Bottas overall did what he needed to that weekend and got a better result than Hamilton. So that is 2 weekends since Canada that Bottas has overall looked better. So I don't see what made it look like things had turned around after Canada. 3 out of 4 races after Canada, he finished ahead of Hamilton. Although one was most definitely down to luck. But in the 4 races after Canada, he very nearly got thebest result the team could have hoped for given the circumstances. I really struggle to understand what you mean about Bottas's gap after Canada. It was much later than that that I thought it was much more noticeable.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:28 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Bottas was bad today, but Vettel in that Ferrari was favourite today. Vettel was in P11 by lap 3.
Once again, Bottas close to maximum points from the Mercedes unless we expect him to match Hamilton pace wise, P4 was the maximum. Mercedes essentially seal WCC today too.

I think his very remote title challenge 100% ended today. HAM could have 3/4 DNFs and Bottas won't catch him.


Bottas was a pitstop behind Vettel before he turned the engine down in the latter stages, like I said in the how well Rosberg will be doing thread Bottas is a very poor driver, Vettel started absolutely dead last.

It just goes to show earlier in the season, it wasn't Bottas being good but Hamilton was poor.


I can't really agree with this. There certainly were several races where Bottas was good. If we call Bottas poor now and say he poor then too just because Hamilton was worse, then doesn't that mean that Hamilton had several really really really poor weekends? And by his usual standards, then that should make them even worse. And in this case, then Hamilton's season as a whole has been severely overrated. This judgement just doesn't make much sense. Bottas was pretty good at the beginning. Hamilton was quite a bit better but did have several off weekends. Hamilton's low point of the season at a single race cost him more than any of Bottas's performances at a single race. So Hamilton qualified much worse than Bottas has at any point as well as finishing a race lower than any Bottas has and this was completely his own fault.

I can agree now, there is a very big gap between these 2. But Bottas is doing a pretty solid job at being a team player and he really isn't doing that badly overall. After all, this track we did consider the Red Bulls and Ferrari's to be better, and he did end up finishing about where the car was expected to. But Hamilton got more out of it. But people say he stands out from the rest a lot of the time, so a big difference between him and Bottas has to be expected sometimes. That shouldn't always mean Bottas is poor. He wasn't great this race. Vettel was much better, but I am certain these upgrades on Bottas's car have made it go backwards rather than forwards. Considering that Hamilton said he wasn't trying his best this race, that could mean that Hamilton could have possibly finished nearly a minute ahead of Bottas. I think that is a bit unrealistic to say that this would be the pace difference between the 2. The gap in Singapore was large due to Bottas being poor. He wasn't great here either but I think a large part of it was down to the car. He's still showing he is strong at times in the race though as he pretty much prevented Ricciardo from challenging Hamilton because of his good start.




Lamo, I don't quite understand what you mean about Hamilton retireing 3 to 4 times and Bottas still not being able to finish ahead of Hamilton in the championship. If Hamilton retires in the next 2 races and finished 3rd in the one after and Bottas wins all 3, then Bottas will be ahead by a point with 2 races remaining. It is so unlikely to happen but if Hamilton has 4 retirements, I don't understand how Bottas certainly won't be ahead of him as you are implying. If Hamilton had 3 and Bottas won twice and finished 2nd all 3 times which I think would be unlikely if Hamilton wasn't there, he would only be 5 points behind. So if you include the 4th retirement, I don't know how you could possibly think Bottas won't be able to go past him in the standings.

A very much doubt any of this will happen. I just don't quite understand how Bottas couldn't beat Hamilton if this was the situation.


The gap just didn't develop after Canada, also Bahrain Monaco Russia thats what made people think Bottas was a title contender.

Austria and Hungary? Bottas did very well in qualifying there and Hamilton seemed off a bit somehow. Hamilton didn't even recover to a podium. While when Bottas had a gear box penalty in Britain, even though he did qualify poorly in 4th, he started 9th and finished 2nd. Although I think he will have only been within DRS range of Kimi if Kimi didn't have his tyre blow out. Hamilton started 8th in Austria and seemed to struggle to get past Ricciardo and it is known that the Red Bull struggles here. That weekend, Bottas was clearly a step above Hamilton.

In Hungary, Bottas qualified 1 place ahead of Bottas. That was very important here as this track is incredibly difficult to overtake on. Bottas did enough where he needed to to finish ahead of Hamilton. No matter if Hamilton was quicker than Bottas, it was incredibly unlikely that he will have found a way past. So Bottas overall did what he needed to that weekend and got a better result than Hamilton. So that is 2 weekends since Canada that Bottas has overall looked better. So I don't see what made it look like things had turned around after Canada. 3 out of 4 races after Canada, he finished ahead of Hamilton. Although one was most definitely down to luck. But in the 4 races after Canada, he very nearly got thebest result the team could have hoped for given the circumstances. I really struggle to understand what you mean about Bottas's gap after Canada. It was much later than that that I thought it was much more noticeable.


Mate, in Austria, once Lewis cleared traffic, he was much quicker than Bottas. In fact, both RIC and HAM were faster than BOT and VET by the end of the race. If he didn't have that gearbox penalty, it would have been a whole different story.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:19 pm 
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mkay wrote:

Mate, in Austria, once Lewis cleared traffic, he was much quicker than Bottas. In fact, both RIC and HAM were faster than BOT and VET by the end of the race. If he didn't have that gearbox penalty, it would have been a whole different story.

What you mean is it could have been a whole different story. Vettel was quicker than Bottas at the end of the race but couldn't get past. Hamilton qualified 3rd and it is often very difficult to overtake the same car. Bottas had by far the best start out of anyone and pulled ahead by quite some gap in the 1st stint. and If he managed to keep Vettel behind at the end, I think it is unlikely he won't have managed the same with Hamilton, especially as this track is very hard to overtake on. What I'm saying is I do still think Hamilton will have ahd a hard job beating Bottas that weekend even if he was quicker.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:45 am 
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Toto said on Finnish TV after the race that the car suits Lewis's driving style better than Valtteri's, and that Valtteri should change his driving style to get the tyres in their optimal window as they are now overheating.

(source in Finnish https://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/art ... gs.5rw9h78)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:03 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Lamo, I don't quite understand what you mean about Hamilton retireing 3 to 4 times and Bottas still not being able to finish ahead of Hamilton in the championship. If Hamilton retires in the next 2 races and finished 3rd in the one after and Bottas wins all 3, then Bottas will be ahead by a point with 2 races remaining. It is so unlikely to happen but if Hamilton has 4 retirements, I don't understand how Bottas certainly won't be ahead of him as you are implying. If Hamilton had 3 and Bottas won twice and finished 2nd all 3 times which I think would be unlikely if Hamilton wasn't there, he would only be 5 points behind. So if you include the 4th retirement, I don't know how you could possibly think Bottas won't be able to go past him in the standings.

A very much doubt any of this will happen. I just don't quite understand how Bottas couldn't beat Hamilton if this was the situation.


I don't see Bottas winning if Hamilton retires unless its a specific Mercedes advantage track. Maybe 4 was a bit of a stretch, but 3 retirements and Hamilton would still finish ahead of him or 4 retirements if Bottas/Mercedes isn't so good and falls behind Ferrari/Red Bull on some of those occasions.

I think at best Bottas would get 25-18-18, that is 61 points. Hamilton is 59 ahead. Bottas has only beaten Vettel on merit in 1 of the last 6 races (Monza).

Bottas WDC would now require at least 3 DNFs for Hamilton and at least 2 for Vettel and the Mercedes to be significantly stronger than the Ferrari for the rest of the year.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:07 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mkay wrote:

Mate, in Austria, once Lewis cleared traffic, he was much quicker than Bottas. In fact, both RIC and HAM were faster than BOT and VET by the end of the race. If he didn't have that gearbox penalty, it would have been a whole different story.

What you mean is it could have been a whole different story. Vettel was quicker than Bottas at the end of the race but couldn't get past. Hamilton qualified 3rd and it is often very difficult to overtake the same car. Bottas had by far the best start out of anyone and pulled ahead by quite some gap in the 1st stint. and If he managed to keep Vettel behind at the end, I think it is unlikely he won't have managed the same with Hamilton, especially as this track is very hard to overtake on. What I'm saying is I do still think Hamilton will have ahd a hard job beating Bottas that weekend even if he was quicker.


Hamilton qualified 3rd on a car setup to start below 6th and he only missed it by 0.150. He also didn't get his Q2 sighter runs on the q3 tyres as he started the race on the soft knowing he was taking a penalty. Something that is clearly very important to Lewis as he usually has two full out runs in Q2 to find the limit before the Q3 laps. He has also said in the past how important these building up laps up to nail the Q3 lap.

I think those two things are worth more than 0.150 personally, it would have been a different weekend if Lewis didn't have those penalties. Not taking away from Val he had a very good weekend and Austria is not a strong Hamilton track to begin with.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:58 am 
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lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mkay wrote:

Mate, in Austria, once Lewis cleared traffic, he was much quicker than Bottas. In fact, both RIC and HAM were faster than BOT and VET by the end of the race. If he didn't have that gearbox penalty, it would have been a whole different story.

What you mean is it could have been a whole different story. Vettel was quicker than Bottas at the end of the race but couldn't get past. Hamilton qualified 3rd and it is often very difficult to overtake the same car. Bottas had by far the best start out of anyone and pulled ahead by quite some gap in the 1st stint. and If he managed to keep Vettel behind at the end, I think it is unlikely he won't have managed the same with Hamilton, especially as this track is very hard to overtake on. What I'm saying is I do still think Hamilton will have ahd a hard job beating Bottas that weekend even if he was quicker.


Hamilton qualified 3rd on a car setup to start below 6th and he only missed it by 0.150. He also didn't get his Q2 sighter runs on the q3 tyres as he started the race on the soft knowing he was taking a penalty. Something that is clearly very important to Lewis as he usually has two full out runs in Q2 to find the limit before the Q3 laps. He has also said in the past how important these building up laps up to nail the Q3 lap.

I think those two things are worth more than 0.150 personally, it would have been a different weekend if Lewis didn't have those penalties. Not taking away from Val he had a very good weekend and Austria is not a strong Hamilton track to begin with.

I agree it will have been different, but I still think it is unlikely that Hamilton will have found a way past Bottas as it probably will have been very similar to Hungary and he won't have been able to find a way past. My main point was that I thought Bottas had had a couple of weekends that were at leased good since Canada.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:04 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Toto said on Finnish TV after the race that the car suits Lewis's driving style better than Valtteri's, and that Valtteri should change his driving style to get the tyres in their optimal window as they are now overheating.

(source in Finnish https://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/art ... gs.5rw9h78)

When you say the car, do you mean the setup that Hamilton was using? Even when Bottas was on that, he was a fair gap behind I suppose, just not as much as on this new set up. I also notices Toto say this based on this weekend about Bottas: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/01/m ... nt-3592345

“We know that gap doesn’t reflect his true level of performance, and it will be a priority for us to put two equally competitive cars on track next weekend in Suzuka.”

He also did say that Bottas struggled to match the pace of Hamilton which is fair enough.

But from the amount of interviews he's had about the upgrades, he's just looked plain uncomfortable as he doens't want to admit it hasn't workd and has infact looked to be a backwards step. But from the words he used here, he does look like he's admitting that the old set up is more competitive.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:10 am 
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New concepts sometimes take a while to actually be an improvement over a known entity. It takes time for the engineers to get in the grove and the drivers may need to change a little of their normal style, like Vettel adapting to the EBD. It could be Toto does not want to say 'we are using a new concept' as everyone will be looking for it then. or they could just plain have muffed up, it happens.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Invade wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
He is off form and Hamilton is on form.

However he is performing as expected. He is a bit better than Massa but not as good as Rosberg.

He is capable of the odd sublime performance though.


Seems so, yes.

Easy to forget that Rosberg had periods of significant dominance over Hamilton. 7 better finishes in a row at one point was it? Maybe more.


Using Massa as a barometer, we know that a top tier driver would be expected to dominate him. Bottas never really did.


I do think Rosberg is a little underrated generally. He at least had the raw pace to convert many chances as long as he doesn't have to do too much racing; and frankly, his racecraft was a bit underrated later on into the rivalry with him and Lewis, though it was never top notch of course. I'm not seeing that raw race speed from Bottas.


Mercedes have missed rosberg a lot in my opinion. Not just the speed advantage he definitely has over Bottas but his technical abilities as well. Really noone since alonso had looked so close to lewis in the same car. Very very good driver.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:23 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Toto said on Finnish TV after the race that the car suits Lewis's driving style better than Valtteri's, and that Valtteri should change his driving style to get the tyres in their optimal window as they are now overheating.

(source in Finnish https://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/art ... gs.5rw9h78)

When you say the car, do you mean the setup that Hamilton was using? Even when Bottas was on that, he was a fair gap behind I suppose, just not as much as on this new set up. I also notices Toto say this based on this weekend about Bottas: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/01/m ... nt-3592345

“We know that gap doesn’t reflect his true level of performance, and it will be a priority for us to put two equally competitive cars on track next weekend in Suzuka.”

He also did say that Bottas struggled to match the pace of Hamilton which is fair enough.

But from the amount of interviews he's had about the upgrades, he's just looked plain uncomfortable as he doens't want to admit it hasn't workd and has infact looked to be a backwards step. But from the words he used here, he does look like he's admitting that the old set up is more competitive.

He's specifically talking about the car and that it "certainly suits Lewis much more".
It's in the video in the article but you may need to bypass the country restriction.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:47 pm 
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I know that Bottas isn't performing well as he was early in the season, But I still find it strange that looking at the amount of times the Mercedes drivers have been on the podium, Bottas has still been up there once more even though he's the only one of the pair to have DNF. His positions on the podium clearly haven't been as high as Hamilton's though. And Bottas when Bottas isn't on the podium, he's often more than one place below it. But Hamilton has still had the lowest finish out of the 2 this year. So Hamilton seems to have been having a really low finish, less podiums but when he does perform, he performs far far better than Bottas a lot of the time. But if I wasa asked who was more consistent this year, I think I may have to say Bottas. But in the way he's being consistent isn't exactly much of an advantage. I think that overall, he's just done a decent job for his first year and I think the latest race was an example where he did a good job at helping Hamilton even if he wasn't trying to. The way he had the best start out of the top 4 drivers got him ahead of Ricciardo. He then held him behind until Hamilton had pulled away by 10 seconds. At the stage where Ricciardo got past Bottas, he was quicker than Hamilton and Verstappen. This makes me think that he will have been challenging Hamilton in the early stages and could well have got ahead if it wasn't for Bottas. But Hamilton may have turned things around in the end. While this isn't good for Bottas's points, I still think there were some positives to take away from this race towards him being a good team player. Not that Ricciardo is on his team but he did mention that Bottas did a pretty good job at keeping him behind. At one point, it looked like Bottas had forgotten Ricciardo was right up behind him and Ricciardo had was almost level. But Bottas showed he was fully prepared for this and braked far later in a controlled manner and kept ahead for another lap or 2. I have to say that defending usually is a very strong point for Bottas.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:24 pm 
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More consistent than Lewis?. Just no.

He's lucked into at least 2 of those podiums and Lewis has the lowest finish because it's tough to overtake in Monaco. He has at least 1 poor stint in the race, no consistency advantage over Lewis there at all and Quali is even worse.

He's in his first year, he has a tough and arguably toughest team mate and he has played the team game well, all very true. He started the year well but has been the luckiest driver on the grid bar maybe Dan and has been far too up and down in qualifying and is usually well off Lewis's pace to be honest.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:36 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Toto said on Finnish TV after the race that the car suits Lewis's driving style better than Valtteri's, and that Valtteri should change his driving style to get the tyres in their optimal window as they are now overheating.

(source in Finnish https://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/art ... gs.5rw9h78)

I'm happy that they are going down this route rather than the Button route in 2012.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Why would he be getting nervous? His team mate is one of the greatest F1 drivers in history, he's doing a lot better vs Hamilton than Raikkonen is doing against Vettel. All Mercedes need is a good number 2 driver to take home the constructors, and they have pretty much already sealed the deal on that. Drivers having an off race here and there is not unusual, Hamilton and Vettel had entire seasons where they were off.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Toto said on Finnish TV after the race that the car suits Lewis's driving style better than Valtteri's, and that Valtteri should change his driving style to get the tyres in their optimal window as they are now overheating.

(source in Finnish https://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/art ... gs.5rw9h78)

I'm happy that they are going down this route rather than the Button route in 2012.

Well they're different teams for a start

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Toto said on Finnish TV after the race that the car suits Lewis's driving style better than Valtteri's, and that Valtteri should change his driving style to get the tyres in their optimal window as they are now overheating.

(source in Finnish https://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/art ... gs.5rw9h78)

I'm happy that they are going down this route rather than the Button route in 2012.

i seem to recall you complaining about them going down the Button route (in your words) in 2012? It's only a good thing when it favours Lewis, then?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
More consistent than Lewis?. Just no.

He's lucked into at least 2 of those podiums and Lewis has the lowest finish because it's tough to overtake in Monaco. He has at least 1 poor stint in the race, no consistency advantage over Lewis there at all and Quali is even worse.

He's in his first year, he has a tough and arguably toughest team mate and he has played the team game well, all very true. He started the year well but has been the luckiest driver on the grid bar maybe Dan and has been far too up and down in qualifying and is usually well off Lewis's pace to be honest.


Lewis had a low finish in Monaco because he had a qualifying session far worse than any of his team mates. It was only this bad once, where as all of Bottas's weaker qualifying sessions bring the average qualifying gap lower for him now. Until Spa, Bottas's average qualifying position was higher than Hamilton's. If you look at the qualifying stats towards the beginning of the season, Bottas was never lower than 3rd on the grid until Britain. While Hamilton had been 4th twice and 14th too. As a result, at this point, this surely meant Bottas was a little more consistent in this area especially? What I mean by consistent is getting a similar position each time I know this is a bit of an unrealistic way of measuring it, but it was just statistics. Hamilton was often right near the top and clearly the best or sometimes the worst of the top 4 or even worse on one occation. At this stage of the season, Botta's results in qualifying were not this bad when you balance them out. You can't say he's been the luckiest. He's had a retirement and his team mate hasn't. I couldn't say Ricciardo has overall been really lucky either as he's still had 3 retirements as well as problems in Britain during qualifying. I know that Bottas has now started to drop his form somewhat, but if you take into account Hamilton's start to the season on the subject of qualifying, I'm still couldn't say Hamilton was a lot more consistent than Bottas. As you can usually predict how well Bottas will do, where as Hamilton somehow seems to be right at the top or worse than Bottas who we seem to consider poor over a lot of the season. I think that shows Hamilton has been rather inconsistent this season near the start. I won't argue that in terms of how well they are doing, Hamilton is clearly far better on the whole as he gets better results and rather a lot more points now.

It's probably not worth arguing about weather we think Bottas has been lucky or not as we already know we both have different views on the incidents he was involved in and his performances this year.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:51 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Toto said on Finnish TV after the race that the car suits Lewis's driving style better than Valtteri's, and that Valtteri should change his driving style to get the tyres in their optimal window as they are now overheating.

(source in Finnish https://www.mtv.fi/sport/f1/uutinen/art ... gs.5rw9h78)

I'm happy that they are going down this route rather than the Button route in 2012.

i seem to recall you complaining about them going down the Button route (in your words) in 2012? It's only a good thing when it favours Lewis, then?

I'm sure you've not read properly what I posted, Bottas has to sort his driving out rather than Mercedes going down some garden path for him, the garden path would be ending up with a worse car like in 2012.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:24 am 
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When Lewis struggled in a couple of races earlier in the season it was because they couldn't get enough temperature in the tires right? And Bottas seemed to peform better with that issue, i guess due to his driving style. But now the problem is tires overheating and Lewis's driving style is better at handling it. Interesting.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:43 am 
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kleefton wrote:
When Lewis struggled in a couple of races earlier in the season it was because they couldn't get enough temperature in the tires right? And Bottas seemed to peform better with that issue, i guess due to his driving style. But now the problem is tires overheating and Lewis's driving style is better at handling it. Interesting.

Yeah, these tyres are kind of throwing all driver comparisons out the window...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:01 am 
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Bigbazz wrote:
Why would he be getting nervous? His team mate is one of the greatest F1 drivers in history, he's doing a lot better vs Hamilton than Raikkonen is doing against Vettel. All Mercedes need is a good number 2 driver to take home the constructors, and they have pretty much already sealed the deal on that. Drivers having an off race here and there is not unusual, Hamilton and Vettel had entire seasons where they were off.

I'm not so sure about that anymore.

Raikkonen has had a lot of bad luck this year. He got punted off by Bottas in both Spain and Baku. In Spain he probably lost a podium, and he might have won Baku given Hamilton's headrest issue. A puncture in Silverstone cost him 3 points. He got crashed into in Singapore after a great start, and had a DNS in Malaysia. In Malaysia he could have won as well, as he probably had the fastest package in the race.

Kimi just has a tendency to always get bad luck and the worst possible moments. In terms of performance, he's arguably not been much worse than Bottas honestly.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:04 am 
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Covalent wrote:
kleefton wrote:
When Lewis struggled in a couple of races earlier in the season it was because they couldn't get enough temperature in the tires right? And Bottas seemed to peform better with that issue, i guess due to his driving style. But now the problem is tires overheating and Lewis's driving style is better at handling it. Interesting.

Yeah, these tyres are kind of throwing all driver comparisons out the window...

I can agree if this is the case. If Bottas managed to beat Hamilton because Hamilton was struggling at the time, then I don't get why Hamilton has overall been rated so high this season, especially considering many say Bottas has overall been poor. It just shows they have both been up and down, but obviously more down than up over a bigger amount of races with Bottas than Hamilton. But if we do consider Hamilton to be one of the best drivers out there, I think that should be expected and make Bottas's start to the season even more impressive. I also think it should mean that although he isn't exactly doing a good job at the moment, I don't think it's as bad as it looks. Is the fact that he finished further behind Hamilton in the last race than he did in China when part of the race was wet and he's concider poor in these conditions. He even spun in China too. I personally think his car did cost him a small amount of this time during the race. The gap will have still been very large I'd say, just not nearly 3 quarters of a minute. I don't think a gap this big in these conditions reflects his difference to Hamilton very well on this latest occasion. as he was matched in one of the practice sessions, quicker in the final one as well as quicker in Q2. He was also the only driver who didn't improve his Q3 time over Q2. Even with 2 attempts that didn't look to have mistakes in. To me, this looked like the Mercedes didn't have it's usual gain in Q3. And as I said earlier, when Channel 4 spoke to Toto, you could pretty much tell that he wasn't happy with the performance of the car more than Bottas performance at that point in time.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:21 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
More consistent than Lewis?. Just no.

He's lucked into at least 2 of those podiums and Lewis has the lowest finish because it's tough to overtake in Monaco. He has at least 1 poor stint in the race, no consistency advantage over Lewis there at all and Quali is even worse.

He's in his first year, he has a tough and arguably toughest team mate and he has played the team game well, all very true. He started the year well but has been the luckiest driver on the grid bar maybe Dan and has been far too up and down in qualifying and is usually well off Lewis's pace to be honest.


Lewis had a low finish in Monaco because he had a qualifying session far worse than any of his team mates. It was only this bad once, where as all of Bottas's weaker qualifying sessions bring the average qualifying gap lower for him now. Until Spa, Bottas's average qualifying position was higher than Hamilton's. If you look at the qualifying stats towards the beginning of the season, Bottas was never lower than 3rd on the grid until Britain. While Hamilton had been 4th twice and 14th too. As a result, at this point, this surely meant Bottas was a little more consistent in this area especially?

What I mean by consistent is getting a similar position each time I know this is a bit of an unrealistic way of measuring it, but it was just statistics. Hamilton was often right near the top and clearly the best or sometimes the worst of the top 4 or even worse on one occation. At this stage of the season, Botta's results in qualifying were not this bad when you balance them out. You can't say he's been the luckiest. He's had a retirement and his team mate hasn't. I couldn't say Ricciardo has overall been really lucky either as he's still had 3 retirements as well as problems in Britain during qualifying. I know that Bottas has now started to drop his form somewhat, but if you take into account Hamilton's start to the season on the subject of qualifying, I'm still couldn't say Hamilton was a lot more consistent than Bottas. As you can usually predict how well Bottas will do, where as Hamilton somehow seems to be right at the top or worse than Bottas who we seem to consider poor over a lot of the season. I think that shows Hamilton has been rather inconsistent this season near the start. I won't argue that in terms of how well they are doing, Hamilton is clearly far better on the whole as he gets better results and rather a lot more points now.

It's probably not worth arguing about weather we think Bottas has been lucky or not as we already know we both have different views on the incidents he was involved in and his performances this year.


1) Hamiltons final lap was blocked in Monaco. Hamilton was bad that day but if that lap wasn't blocked he was setting a time 0.250 slower than Bottas and likely to start the race at least 6th. Bottas has qualified 2.2 seconds slower than Hamilton in Monza and 0.7 slower than Hamilton on another 3 occasions. Straight up performance deficit.

2) Hamilton 4th twice and 14th in qualifying? Hamilton was 4th in Russia, 14th in Monaco. Where is this other 4th pre GB?

3) The statistical analysis is really low level. Reminds me of the "Nico has been consistent thing" in the middle of 2014 when basically we won a few races when Hamilton had mechanical issues and lead in the title race with a couple of wins and loads of P2's behind Lewis.

Bottas is in a car that has a huge window performance wise or I should say HAD a huge window because if he under performs now then Red Bulls will beat him and that has happened in the last 4 weekends (qualifying and/or races). Previously he could be awful (+0.5 off Hamilton) and qualifying 3rd / finish third unless it was a track/weekend Kimi was strong on (few and far between). He also has had the luxury of being 0.5+ behind and still getting 2nds on tracks like Monza, Silverstone and Canada because of them being Mercedes dominant tracks.

Hamilton happened to have his bad weekends on weekends Ferrari/Kimi were strong - he would have picked up easy 3rds otherwise.

If Bottas has any more +0.6 performances from Lewis (he has been there in 5 of the last 6 races) he will find himself behind both Red Bulls. If Heikki had been that far off Lewis in 2008 he would have been starting races 8th-10th and he is often lambasted for being well below par when in reality he was only on average a tenth or two slower than Lewis over teh season (fuel adjusted). Although his race pace is a different matter.

I think its a bit rich saying Hamilton is more up and down, he has had 2 bad weekends, 3 if you include Hungary. We have had 15 races. Being out performed 3/15 is the same kind of ratio most of the top drivers have had over a number 2 over a season Schumacher-Barrichello, Vettel-Webber, Alonso-Massa, Alonso- Fisichella, Vettel-Raikkonen

Bottas has had more than double that and if you are judging him to Hamiltons standard then he has had probably 10 bad races.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:18 pm 
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His seat should be safe until 2021 if we look at the pattern of Hamilton's ex-teammates:
Alonso 1 year
Kovalainen 2 years
Button 3 years
Rosberg 4 years


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:35 pm 
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I want to see Hamilton paired with Ricciardo or Verstappen from 2019 onwards. I don't see Bottas keeping Hamilton honest enough and it would force Ferrari to pick up a real talent (who is in prime) to pair with Vettel otherwise bye bye WCC unless they have a dominant car. If Red Bull come real good then I don't know, but I'm not exactly curious about Hamilton-Bottas or Vettel-Kimi.


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CAR1 wrote:
His seat should be safe until 2021 if we look at the pattern of Hamilton's ex-teammates:
Alonso 1 year
Kovalainen 2 years
Button 3 years
Rosberg 4 years

Good catch :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:14 pm 
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lamo wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
More consistent than Lewis?. Just no.

He's lucked into at least 2 of those podiums and Lewis has the lowest finish because it's tough to overtake in Monaco. He has at least 1 poor stint in the race, no consistency advantage over Lewis there at all and Quali is even worse.

He's in his first year, he has a tough and arguably toughest team mate and he has played the team game well, all very true. He started the year well but has been the luckiest driver on the grid bar maybe Dan and has been far too up and down in qualifying and is usually well off Lewis's pace to be honest.


Lewis had a low finish in Monaco because he had a qualifying session far worse than any of his team mates. It was only this bad once, where as all of Bottas's weaker qualifying sessions bring the average qualifying gap lower for him now. Until Spa, Bottas's average qualifying position was higher than Hamilton's. If you look at the qualifying stats towards the beginning of the season, Bottas was never lower than 3rd on the grid until Britain. While Hamilton had been 4th twice and 14th too. As a result, at this point, this surely meant Bottas was a little more consistent in this area especially?

What I mean by consistent is getting a similar position each time I know this is a bit of an unrealistic way of measuring it, but it was just statistics. Hamilton was often right near the top and clearly the best or sometimes the worst of the top 4 or even worse on one occation. At this stage of the season, Botta's results in qualifying were not this bad when you balance them out. You can't say he's been the luckiest. He's had a retirement and his team mate hasn't. I couldn't say Ricciardo has overall been really lucky either as he's still had 3 retirements as well as problems in Britain during qualifying. I know that Bottas has now started to drop his form somewhat, but if you take into account Hamilton's start to the season on the subject of qualifying, I'm still couldn't say Hamilton was a lot more consistent than Bottas. As you can usually predict how well Bottas will do, where as Hamilton somehow seems to be right at the top or worse than Bottas who we seem to consider poor over a lot of the season. I think that shows Hamilton has been rather inconsistent this season near the start. I won't argue that in terms of how well they are doing, Hamilton is clearly far better on the whole as he gets better results and rather a lot more points now.

It's probably not worth arguing about weather we think Bottas has been lucky or not as we already know we both have different views on the incidents he was involved in and his performances this year.


1) Hamiltons final lap was blocked in Monaco. Hamilton was bad that day but if that lap wasn't blocked he was setting a time 0.250 slower than Bottas and likely to start the race at least 6th. Bottas has qualified 2.2 seconds slower than Hamilton in Monza and 0.7 slower than Hamilton on another 3 occasions. Straight up performance deficit.

2) Hamilton 4th twice and 14th in qualifying? Hamilton was 4th in Russia, 14th in Monaco. Where is this other 4th pre GB?

3) The statistical analysis is really low level. Reminds me of the "Nico has been consistent thing" in the middle of 2014 when basically we won a few races when Hamilton had mechanical issues and lead in the title race with a couple of wins and loads of P2's behind Lewis.

Bottas is in a car that has a huge window performance wise or I should say HAD a huge window because if he under performs now then Red Bulls will beat him and that has happened in the last 4 weekends (qualifying and/or races). Previously he could be awful (+0.5 off Hamilton) and qualifying 3rd / finish third unless it was a track/weekend Kimi was strong on (few and far between). He also has had the luxury of being 0.5+ behind and still getting 2nds on tracks like Monza, Silverstone and Canada because of them being Mercedes dominant tracks.

Hamilton happened to have his bad weekends on weekends Ferrari/Kimi were strong - he would have picked up easy 3rds otherwise.

If Bottas has any more +0.6 performances from Lewis (he has been there in 5 of the last 6 races) he will find himself behind both Red Bulls. If Heikki had been that far off Lewis in 2008 he would have been starting races 8th-10th and he is often lambasted for being well below par when in reality he was only on average a tenth or two slower than Lewis over teh season (fuel adjusted). Although his race pace is a different matter.

I think its a bit rich saying Hamilton is more up and down, he has had 2 bad weekends, 3 if you include Hungary. We have had 15 races. Being out performed 3/15 is the same kind of ratio most of the top drivers have had over a number 2 over a season Schumacher-Barrichello, Vettel-Webber, Alonso-Massa, Alonso- Fisichella, Vettel-Raikkonen

Bottas has had more than double that and if you are judging him to Hamiltons standard then he has had probably 10 bad races.


About your first point. Hamilton backed off in both of his first 2 runs in Q2. He was easily capable of getting a good enough time to get through if he didn't do this. He had not need to. But as he did back off, 2 drivers that session complained about Hamilton perticually being slow and holding them up. They probably assumed he was on a fast lap which he was until he liften off. Hamilton should have just done enough. I agree he was unlucky at the end, but as the commentators who usually love Hamilton on Channel 4 said, you should never leave completing a decent lap to the last moment here.

Your 2nd point, the way I wrote this wasn't clear at all, so sorry about that. It was also a little unfair the way I compared them as I included Hamilton's 4th position after Britain where as I said Bottas was no lower than 3rd until then. So you are right that until GB, Hamilton's lowest positions were as you said.

I think Bottas was faster than the Red Bulls over 2 of the past 4 races, but that likely was because of his car. And I think it was his mistakes rather than his pace that cost him this most of the time. In Spa, he did look a fair bit quicker than Ricciardo until the mistake he made at the end. Italy, he just made a mistake in qualifying but soon recovered from it. But Mercedes did have a strong car there. Sinapore IMO was probably the worst for Bottas out of these races considering how capable the other cars were. In Malaysia, he basically qualified and finished about where the 3rd best car should if that is where many thought Mercedes were that weekend. But his qualifying time and race pace was obviously slow. But I think it looked slightly worse than it really was because of these new upgrades not working out.

I think I can agree with the fact that Bottas has had about 10 races that most are well off Hamilton's pace. I don't think I'd call this many bad relative to Hamilton, but certainly all worse overall. I don't think we'll agree though. I can say I was possibly a bit to kind towards Bottas with several of my statements thoough.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:18 pm 
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I can't add to anything lamo said so not much point trying.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:46 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I can't add to anything lamo said so not much point trying.

Fair enough. I understand I was a bit generous towards Bottas with a lot of it but it does still seem like we have pretty different views. But that isn't a problem. We will possibly just disagree a lot sometime in the future if Bottas continues to be like he has been this season! :lol:


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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I can't add to anything lamo said so not much point trying.

Fair enough. I understand I was a bit generous towards Bottas with a lot of it but it does still seem like we have pretty different views. But that isn't a problem. We will possibly just disagree a lot sometime in the future if Bottas continues to be like he has been this season! :lol:


My opinion on Bottas goes up and down like a yo-yo so we will agree sometimes as well. :D

I thought he started off very well and I do understand it's not only his first year at Merc but his first taste of the sharp end and a title fight too which is tough. And that the W08 is a diva which isn't easy to deal with at times. And that his team mate is arguably the best on the grid.

It's all experience gained but next year is arguably more important because of the driver market so he should give himself a break for this year as well, his last interview was rough. Pocket the knowledge, keep his nose clean in the run in and help Lewis and the team out as much as he can and have a productive winter with the team and come again.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:49 am
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Even as a Dan fan - he was competitive at the end of the Japanese GP - hard to fault that


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