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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:46 pm 
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I was quite prepared to chalk this up as bad luck / coincidence that Kimi suffers a failure as soon as the car rolled out of the garage this morning, but then I watched that Ferrari engineer bumbling about the difference between the two 'separate' failures on their cars and it sounded unconvincing. Tin foil hat to one side, could Vettel have been driving Kimi's car today?! Just a quick swap of the stickers, pedals and seat.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:54 pm 
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I would imagine the FIA would have governance for that type of thing to ensure the engine components in the pool are driver specific and they can dish out penalties as required?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:58 pm 
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Amazes me the levels of stupidity that appear on the Internet


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
Amazes me the levels of stupidity that appear on the Internet


Component and car switching has occurred many times before, sometimes without the knowledge of the driver. Therefore to label the question as 'stupidity' is naive. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't know f1 history, which makes you uninformed and ignorant instead.

Do I think it likely the Ferrari's were switched? No. Is it beyond the realms of possibility by a desperate team batting for a championship? Also no.

So wind your neck in.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:25 pm 
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When the number of engine components each driver is allowed to use is strictly regulated, no they didn't just 'give' Kimi's turbo to Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:28 pm 
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Each item on the list is serial numbed and checked off before and after each race. Each is assigned a car/driver and can not be allocated to anyone else.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:04 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
When the number of engine components each driver is allowed to use is strictly regulated, no they didn't just 'give' Kimi's turbo to Vettel.

Kimi's turbo is in the thread's title, but in the OP it is... the entire car?!

Quote:
could Vettel have been driving Kimi's car today?!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:15 pm 
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gregs51 wrote:
Zazu wrote:
Amazes me the levels of stupidity that appear on the Internet


Component and car switching has occurred many times before, sometimes without the knowledge of the driver. Therefore to label the question as 'stupidity' is naive. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't know f1 history, which makes you uninformed and ignorant instead.


No Greg, don't mean to offend you but you're the uninformed one here. Switching cars would mean both drivers get a count of every PU component added to their total. It would be impossible to do unnoticed and incredibly stupid by Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:30 pm 
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Just a though but if Driver A was in a championship fight but had run out of engine parts but Driver B, who is out of the title race has loads left could they switch Driver A's entry to the car of Driver B?

Because the restrictions on the components is down to the car not the driver?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:31 pm 
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Just a though but if Driver A was in a championship fight but had run out of engine parts but Driver B, who is out of the title race has loads left could they switch Driver A's entry to the car of Driver B?

Because the restrictions on the components is down to the car not the driver?

I.E Gasly is on Kvyat's allocation?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:35 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Just a though but if Driver A was in a championship fight but had run out of engine parts but Driver B, who is out of the title race has loads left could they switch Driver A's entry to the car of Driver B?

Because the restrictions on the components is down to the car not the driver?

I.E Gasly is on Kvyat's allocation?


The restrictions are down to the driver.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:43 pm 
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Prema wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just a though but if Driver A was in a championship fight but had run out of engine parts but Driver B, who is out of the title race has loads left could they switch Driver A's entry to the car of Driver B?

Because the restrictions on the components is down to the car not the driver?

I.E Gasly is on Kvyat's allocation?


The restrictions are down to the driver.


Gasly is effectively on Kvyats allocation.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:50 pm 
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A few drinks in now, but I dont think my Paul Merton joke got enough love :(

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:52 pm 
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Prema wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just a though but if Driver A was in a championship fight but had run out of engine parts but Driver B, who is out of the title race has loads left could they switch Driver A's entry to the car of Driver B?

Because the restrictions on the components is down to the car not the driver?

I.E Gasly is on Kvyat's allocation?


The restrictions are down to the driver.


Then why is Gasly using Kvyat's allocation?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:59 pm 
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If Ferrari could do it, i wouldn't put it past them. I assume not many people on here know exactly what are the control procedures employed by the FIA and if there are possible ways of circumventing those, and yet they are quick to state the rules and act as if enforcing them is guaranteed, and anyone suggesting even the slightest possibility of foul play is deemed tin foil hat conspiracy theorist or something.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:09 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
A few drinks in now, but I dont think my Paul Merton joke got enough love :(


Made me chuckle....... :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Prema wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just a though but if Driver A was in a championship fight but had run out of engine parts but Driver B, who is out of the title race has loads left could they switch Driver A's entry to the car of Driver B?

Because the restrictions on the components is down to the car not the driver?

I.E Gasly is on Kvyat's allocation?


The restrictions are down to the driver.


Then why is Gasly using Kvyat's allocation?


Fia sporting regs 23.4

A power unit or any of the six components will be deemed to have been used once the
car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.

g) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will
be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing power unit usage.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:21 pm 
mds wrote:
Prema wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just a though but if Driver A was in a championship fight but had run out of engine parts but Driver B, who is out of the title race has loads left could they switch Driver A's entry to the car of Driver B?

Because the restrictions on the components is down to the car not the driver?

I.E Gasly is on Kvyat's allocation?


The restrictions are down to the driver.


Gasly is effectively on Kvyats allocation.

Interesting question.

So what happens if Kyvat replaces Sainz?

It means that either Gasly or Kyvat will have to have used both allocations


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:23 pm 
Did Vettel take an entire new engine this race? Engine 5?

It is also possible they could have taken Kimi's parts and made them part of Vettels new engine number 5 which I assume he took. This would only occur if they had a huge shortage of parts. Its unlikely but possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:29 pm 
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lamo wrote:
mds wrote:
Prema wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Just a though but if Driver A was in a championship fight but had run out of engine parts but Driver B, who is out of the title race has loads left could they switch Driver A's entry to the car of Driver B?

Because the restrictions on the components is down to the car not the driver?

I.E Gasly is on Kvyat's allocation?


The restrictions are down to the driver.


Gasly is effectively on Kvyats allocation.

Interesting question.

So what happens if Kyvat replaces Sainz?

It means that either Gasly or Kyvat will have to have used both allocations


As per as the quoted "replacement" rule, I would expect that then Kvyat would be taking over Sainz' allocation. But it's getting a bit complicated...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Vettel cannot use and components that are part of Kimi's allocation.

He could use parts that may have been intended to have been allocated to Kimi, but that's irrelevant, until they are allocated and attached to a driver's car they are essentially just a pool of generic components.

So, what didn't happen:

Ferrari took a turbo charger from Kimi's car or from the turbos previously used by Kimi

What could have happened:

Ferrari took a turbo charger they were intended to use for Kimi in the future, however because this had not yet been used on Kimi's car it was had not yet been allocated to him, so was just a 'spare turbo charger'.

In other words, what Flash2k11 said.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:01 pm 
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Vettel cannot use and components that are part of Kimi's allocation.

He could use parts that may have been intended to have been allocated to Kimi, but that's irrelevant, until they are allocated and attached to a driver's car they are essentially just a pool of generic components.

So, what didn't happen:

Ferrari took a turbo charger from Kimi's car or from the turbos previously used by Kimi

What could have happened:

Ferrari took a turbo charger they were intended to use for Kimi in the future, however because this had not yet been used on Kimi's car it was had not yet been allocated to him, so was just a 'spare turbo charger'.

In other words, what Flash2k11 said.


They could technically take one of Kimi's turbo's, break the seal on it and then issue it as a new part (new seal) as part of Vettels engine change? I don't see why they couldn't do that. They would have to be very desperate for parts however.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:20 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Did Vettel take an entire new engine this race? Engine 5?

It is also possible they could have taken Kimi's parts and made them part of Vettels new engine number 5 which I assume he took. This would only occur if they had a huge shortage of parts. Its unlikely but possible.

I've asked this on the race thread because the official graphic that comes up when they run through the starting grid just before the formation lap showed that Vettel was taking a 20 place penalty in addition to failing to set a time in qualifying.

No-one else seems to have noticed or commented on this.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:42 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Vettel cannot use and components that are part of Kimi's allocation.

He could use parts that may have been intended to have been allocated to Kimi, but that's irrelevant, until they are allocated and attached to a driver's car they are essentially just a pool of generic components.

So, what didn't happen:

Ferrari took a turbo charger from Kimi's car or from the turbos previously used by Kimi

What could have happened:

Ferrari took a turbo charger they were intended to use for Kimi in the future, however because this had not yet been used on Kimi's car it was had not yet been allocated to him, so was just a 'spare turbo charger'.

In other words, what Flash2k11 said.


They could technically take one of Kimi's turbo's, break the seal on it and then issue it as a new part (new seal) as part of Vettels engine change? I don't see why they couldn't do that. They would have to be very desperate for parts however.


If it was a new unit, that is, not left the garage on the car, then it would not yet be Kimi's unit so would be a 'new' one for Seb.
If it had been used on Kimi's car the same would apply but it would have hour totals on it and a bad idea to re-issue it to Seb as there is no advantage over a new one.


Edit, unless you mean they did not have a new one? unlikely, and even if they did not they would have had a couple flown out over night. This is Ferrari not Manor or even STR. An emergency dash in the execrative jet would be no big panic.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:18 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
lamo wrote:
Did Vettel take an entire new engine this race? Engine 5?

It is also possible they could have taken Kimi's parts and made them part of Vettels new engine number 5 which I assume he took. This would only occur if they had a huge shortage of parts. Its unlikely but possible.

I've asked this on the race thread because the official graphic that comes up when they run through the starting grid just before the formation lap showed that Vettel was taking a 20 place penalty in addition to failing to set a time in qualifying.

No-one else seems to have noticed or commented on this.


They said in commentary Vettel was taking a bunch of new power unit parts. Obviously if he's starting at the back penalties for bringing in new bits is irrelevant.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:28 am 
moby wrote:
lamo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Vettel cannot use and components that are part of Kimi's allocation.

He could use parts that may have been intended to have been allocated to Kimi, but that's irrelevant, until they are allocated and attached to a driver's car they are essentially just a pool of generic components.

So, what didn't happen:

Ferrari took a turbo charger from Kimi's car or from the turbos previously used by Kimi

What could have happened:

Ferrari took a turbo charger they were intended to use for Kimi in the future, however because this had not yet been used on Kimi's car it was had not yet been allocated to him, so was just a 'spare turbo charger'.

In other words, what Flash2k11 said.


They could technically take one of Kimi's turbo's, break the seal on it and then issue it as a new part (new seal) as part of Vettels engine change? I don't see why they couldn't do that. They would have to be very desperate for parts however.


If it was a new unit, that is, not left the garage on the car, then it would not yet be Kimi's unit so would be a 'new' one for Seb.
If it had been used on Kimi's car the same would apply but it would have hour totals on it and a bad idea to re-issue it to Seb as there is no advantage over a new one.


Edit, unless you mean they did not have a new one? unlikely, and even if they did not they would have had a couple flown out over night. This is Ferrari not Manor or even STR. An emergency dash in the execrative jet would be no big panic.


Yes I agree, that is why I said it was very unlikely. But that is what I did mean. Taking a used part off of Kimi's car. I was working on the assumption that maybe they found a fault in the new batch of designed parts quite late in the day. Again, all very unlikely, just the timing of Kimi's failure seemed very odd and coincidental given that both Ferrari's had been reliable all year up until that point then both essentially fail within minutes of one another.


Last edited by lamo on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:36 am 
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F1nut wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
A few drinks in now, but I dont think my Paul Merton joke got enough love :(


Made me chuckle....... :thumbup:


I could only muster a wry smile. Sorry.

The thread however.... now that's another story :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:35 am 
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I believe they are not allowed to do that, so no. And, on top of this, any scenario with Kimi in the race (except the one in which Vettel could not take part in the race at all), would have been much better for Ferrari and Vettel. Imagine Kimi finishing P2 in front of Hamilton, with Vettel in P5. It would have reduced Vettel's lost points (towards Hamilton) to 5 instead of 6, never mind the Constructor's where the points lost would be much less with 2 cars in the race. If Kimi would have been behind Hamilton (or even behind Ricciardo), he could have moved aside for Vettel, and then they would have finished P4 and P5, but seeing Vettel's pace, i really believe Kimi could have won this race, and with Vettel in P5 (in that case), they would have closed in on Merc in the Constructor's Championship. So, no, it makes absolutely 0 sense for Ferrari to do that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:02 am 
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paul85 wrote:
I believe they are not allowed to do that, so no. And, on top of this, any scenario with Kimi in the race (except the one in which Vettel could not take part in the race at all), would have been much better for Ferrari and Vettel. Imagine Kimi finishing P2 in front of Hamilton, with Vettel in P5. It would have reduced Vettel's lost points (towards Hamilton) to 5 instead of 6, never mind the Constructor's where the points lost would be much less with 2 cars in the race. If Kimi would have been behind Hamilton (or even behind Ricciardo), he could have moved aside for Vettel, and then they would have finished P4 and P5, but seeing Vettel's pace, i really believe Kimi could have won this race, and with Vettel in P5 (in that case), they would have closed in on Merc in the Constructor's Championship. So, no, it makes absolutely 0 sense for Ferrari to do that.



If they were that desperate to get Vettel the maximum points v Hamilton, they would have been better having Kimi 'get problems' somewhere like pit entry or a mid corner and call a safety car to bunch everyone up. this way Vettel would only be 8 - 10 seconds behind Hamilton at the restart and on choice of tyre ( as they knew the safety was coming out).

I do not believe Ferrari would do this, but just plain not starting him removes many options for them, he could be far more usefull holdong back the field or timing his tyre stop.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:32 am 
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this is all just daft.

kimi qualifies then car goes to parc ferme. no work done on kimis car (unless someone shows me evidence to the contrary). ferrari pick up car on sunday. any work on kimis car involving replacing parts would result in a grid penalty. kimi had no penalty. car goes to grid and problem found.

re vettel. did he not have a complete new power unit as he was starting at the back anyway. why the hell would they want to use any parts from from kimis car that are old and could fail like his (which they did in the end). if they did they would break parc ferme rules and kimi would have got a penalty. if they had a parts shortage and work is done on kimis car he would have got a penalty from the change. am i missing something or is this just a ridiculous thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
this is all just daft.

kimi qualifies then car goes to parc ferme. no work done on kimis car (unless someone shows me evidence to the contrary). ferrari pick up car on sunday. any work on kimis car involving replacing parts would result in a grid penalty. kimi had no penalty. car goes to grid and problem found.

re vettel. did he not have a complete new power unit as he was starting at the back anyway. why the hell would they want to use any parts from from kimis car that are old and could fail like his (which they did in the end). if they did they would break parc ferme rules and kimi would have got a penalty. if they had a parts shortage and work is done on kimis car he would have got a penalty from the change. am i missing something or is this just a ridiculous thread.


Come on, loads of work was done. They replaced a whole brake drum nut!

Seriously, there is no chance Ferrari could have done this. This is laughable.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
this is all just daft.

kimi qualifies then car goes to parc ferme. no work done on kimis car (unless someone shows me evidence to the contrary). ferrari pick up car on sunday. any work on kimis car involving replacing parts would result in a grid penalty. kimi had no penalty. car goes to grid and problem found.

re vettel. did he not have a complete new power unit as he was starting at the back anyway. why the hell would they want to use any parts from from kimis car that are old and could fail like his (which they did in the end). if they did they would break parc ferme rules and kimi would have got a penalty. if they had a parts shortage and work is done on kimis car he would have got a penalty from the change. am i missing something or is this just a ridiculous thread.


Come on, loads of work was done. They replaced a whole brake drum nut!

Seriously, there is no chance Ferrari could have done this. This is laughable.



But the way people find out is to ask. Better to ask and avoid my stupid answer than not to ask at all. It also helps people who are too nervous to ask but want to know.

Always ask. ( just be prepared to sift the answers)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Pretty sure the cars are under full CCTV surveillance all night. To be able to switch them around, just requires too many people to be in on it and bought off for it to be remotely viable and kept a secret in even the medium term. Imagine being in possession of that kind of blackmail material? You could name your price. There is a reason it sounds like a movie plot lol

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Pretty sure the cars are under full CCTV surveillance all night. To be able to switch them around, just requires too many people to be in on it and bought off for it to be remotely viable and kept a secret in even the medium term. Imagine being in possession of that kind of blackmail material? You could name your price. There is a reason it sounds like a movie plot lol

You would have to be one of those people who believes the moon landing was faked to go for this idea that they switched turbos...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Pretty sure the cars are under full CCTV surveillance all night. To be able to switch them around, just requires too many people to be in on it and bought off for it to be remotely viable and kept a secret in even the medium term. Imagine being in possession of that kind of blackmail material? You could name your price. There is a reason it sounds like a movie plot lol


But in the post race check the number on the unit would not be correct so 2 cars disq'd ans a lot of questions.

Unless of course in the unlikely event of the car having a najor shunt in the wind down lap and bits get mislaid, but that is not gonna happen is it?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:28 pm 
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The components with limits on their use through the season like ICE, Turbo, GearBox, MGU-H, MGU-K once allotted to and used by one car cannot be assigned to other car in the team.

Also components are assigned for the car, not driver as mistaken by some here.

Car A and Car B in the team.

If they really wanted to switch Vettel to Kimi's car, they would have had to ensure kimi sits out of entire weekend( quali onward). Someone else races this weekend including qualifying and switch is made before the race weekend.

This is the only way they could have let Vettel use Kimi's machinery. Once Vettel and Kimi were entered into this weekend in their cars, the possibility to use each others machinery goes out of window. And these core parts cant be switched between cars. Any part that is being discarded has to be set aside and cannot be used on other car even if they break the seal.


The situation is different at TR. The new driver is assigned Kvyat's quota because he is replacing him. If tomorrow TR decides to boot out Sainz and put Kvyat in his car, his quota will be applicable to to Kvyat. Or else he can take his old car back and Gasly goes to Sainz's car, his quote will apply to Gasly.

TL DR: - Components once used on one car cannot be used on other car for any reason.

If they have no replacement parts, the other driver will seat out unless driver switch is made before the driver is entered into race which happens before qualifying. Plain and simple. Does not matter if he is in contention for championship. Once qualifying begins, driver has to stick with his machine and components. Under no circumstances the components can be switched between 2 cars.

only exceptions are parts that do not fall under restricted quotas like aero package, floor, wings etc. Those can be swapped and car be allowed to enter. But of swap happens after qualifying, the car not running the same spec part even here goes to the back of the grid.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:33 pm 
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I can't even clean my carburetor on my kart without being caught, let alone switch an engine, or install new tires. you think they could switch a turbo with FIA watching every step?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:25 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Also components are assigned for the car, not driver as mistaken by some here.


But this is not correct. The power units (or its components) are assigned to the driver. Nowhere in the relevant sporting reg section does it say that the components are assigned to the car.

Going by the rest of your explanation I can see that effectively you understand how it works but you really can't say that the components are assigned to the car - they are to the driver or his replacement.

If they were attached to the car then they could swap drivers between cars without further issues and no counts would go up.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:35 am 
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Each team has 2 entries and can use up to 4 drivers with no limits on the number of tubs so the "car" that finishes the season probably doesn't have a single part that was on it at the start.

So how about we simplify the terminology and just say that parts are allocated to the entry. And that there was no way for Ferrari to swap parts or the entire car from Kimi to Seb and shut this thread down.

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