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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:16 pm 
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I'll go through this thread and weed out the completely off topic threads and stick them in their own one as the entire last page has nothing to do with the thread's central premise.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Ok, I've weeded out all of the Bottas/Hamilton related posts and put them in this new thread here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14544&p=718163#p718163

So if you want to discuss that - go there, and make sure that what you post here has some direct relation to the thread's central premise.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:58 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:09 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.



Yes, that's the difference between them right now. Max shows comparable performance but has blips and spikes which Hamilton, as the more polished and mature driver, doesn't have.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:05 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


Personally I don't see Max getting rid of the over the top, low percentage passes and self centered driving or the petulant, juvenile tantrums. Until then he will lose as many races to his attitude as he wins on the basis of his talent. I hope we don't get to the place where his style of driving can win a WDC championship.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:50 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


Personally I don't see Max getting rid of the over the top, low percentage passes and self centered driving or the petulant, juvenile tantrums. Until then he will lose as many races to his attitude as he wins on the basis of his talent. I hope we don't get to the place where his style of driving can win a WDC championship.

He'll figure it out as soon as it starts making him lose out to his peers. It's one thing for Max to see Hamilton winning championships but the moment he starts losing out to Leclerc or someone else his own age, he will learn that he must fix this aspect of his performance.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:17 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


Personally I don't see Max getting rid of the over the top, low percentage passes and self centered driving or the petulant, juvenile tantrums. Until then he will lose as many races to his attitude as he wins on the basis of his talent. I hope we don't get to the place where his style of driving can win a WDC championship.

He'll figure it out as soon as it starts making him lose out to his peers. It's one thing for Max to see Hamilton winning championships but the moment he starts losing out to Leclerc or someone else his own age, he will learn that he must fix this aspect of his performance.

Yes presently he seems quite happy to bounce of cars as he passes them, that's going to bite you from time to time.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:00 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


Personally I don't see Max getting rid of the over the top, low percentage passes and self centered driving or the petulant, juvenile tantrums. Until then he will lose as many races to his attitude as he wins on the basis of his talent. I hope we don't get to the place where his style of driving can win a WDC championship.

He'll figure it out as soon as it starts making him lose out to his peers. It's one thing for Max to see Hamilton winning championships but the moment he starts losing out to Leclerc or someone else his own age, he will learn that he must fix this aspect of his performance.


He has another potential issue on the horizon other than his driving style.

With both Merc & Ferrari appearing to have their respective heir apparents lined up for when Hamilton & Vettel move on, if the RB / Honda marriage doesn't bore the fruit Verstappen feels he deserves, he might find it difficult to get into the constructor teams should their #1 at that time be delivering the goods.

I'm not sure either team would risk bringing in such a polarising driver in that situation & I seriously doubt he'd get a start at Renault if they come good after panning their engine so graphically this year.

To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:12 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


Personally I don't see Max getting rid of the over the top, low percentage passes and self centered driving or the petulant, juvenile tantrums. Until then he will lose as many races to his attitude as he wins on the basis of his talent. I hope we don't get to the place where his style of driving can win a WDC championship.

He'll figure it out as soon as it starts making him lose out to his peers. It's one thing for Max to see Hamilton winning championships but the moment he starts losing out to Leclerc or someone else his own age, he will learn that he must fix this aspect of his performance.


He has another potential issue on the horizon other than his driving style.

With both Merc & Ferrari appearing to have their respective heir apparents lined up for when Hamilton & Vettel move on, if the RB / Honda marriage doesn't bore the fruit Verstappen feels he deserves, he might find it difficult to get into the constructor teams should their #1 at that time be delivering the goods.

I'm not sure either team would risk bringing in such a polarising driver in that situation & I seriously doubt he'd get a start at Renault if they come good after panning their engine so graphically this year.

To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.

I doubt that. Should Hamilton walk away, I think Mercedes would immediately look to secure Max's services; understanding that, with Alonso retired, Max is perhaps the only driver capable of replicating Lewis's level of performance. Ultimately, performance is what matters most. The driver is a major aspect of performance. Without having Hamilton, Mercedes would not have won the championships these last two seasons. I think that Leclerc is likely to keep Ferrari content but I don't think for a second that someone like Bottas or Ocon would prevent Mercedes from pursuing Max in the event that Hamilton retires.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:32 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
He has another potential issue on the horizon other than his driving style.

With both Merc & Ferrari appearing to have their respective heir apparents lined up for when Hamilton & Vettel move on, if the RB / Honda marriage doesn't bore the fruit Verstappen feels he deserves, he might find it difficult to get into the constructor teams should their #1 at that time be delivering the goods.

I'm not sure either team would risk bringing in such a polarising driver in that situation & I seriously doubt he'd get a start at Renault if they come good after panning their engine so graphically this year.

To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.


I think those bridges are already in ashes at the bottom of the river. I can't believe that between now and the end of 2020, there won't be one of the hot shoe up and comers who won't be able to match Max's talent without all of the unwanted baggage that Max currently brings with him.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:20 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
He has another potential issue on the horizon other than his driving style.

With both Merc & Ferrari appearing to have their respective heir apparents lined up for when Hamilton & Vettel move on, if the RB / Honda marriage doesn't bore the fruit Verstappen feels he deserves, he might find it difficult to get into the constructor teams should their #1 at that time be delivering the goods.

I'm not sure either team would risk bringing in such a polarising driver in that situation & I seriously doubt he'd get a start at Renault if they come good after panning their engine so graphically this year.

To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.


I think those bridges are already in ashes at the bottom of the river. I can't believe that between now and the end of 2020, there won't be one of the hot shoe up and comers who won't be able to match Max's talent without all of the unwanted baggage that Max currently brings with him.


Possibility of ending up like Alonso is possible but without the titles.

When Alonso won in '05 and '06 no one saw Hamilton and the Vettel coming to inflict damage on his title aspirations.

Also Redbull has this situation where the younger driver comes into the team and slays the established driver.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:35 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


Personally I don't see Max getting rid of the over the top, low percentage passes and self centered driving or the petulant, juvenile tantrums. Until then he will lose as many races to his attitude as he wins on the basis of his talent. I hope we don't get to the place where his style of driving can win a WDC championship.


No doubt he'll end up dulled and tedious like all the other percentage playing multiple WDCs. Or maybe he won't, maybe he'll under achieve but go down as a reckless legend like Gilles Villeneuve.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:16 am 
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In my opinion he's good/great but he's not driving for championships, you can see in Lewis that he is driving with control because that what he needs to do to manage the car that eats tyres and save the engine. If he was in Max's boat not really driving for anything other than the odd race win then the Lewis of old would take control and in that Red Bull i think Lewis would eat him alive.

Look at the overtake attempt yesterday from Lewis, tested the waters, got passed, got retook and then backed off into clean air when he realised it would eat his tyres battling and it wasn't necessary as he had a race to win. Max would never do this, look at what happened when he fought Bottas at the Italian grand prix, he new it would ruin his race and lose a place to seb but came on his radio and said to his team that he didn't care as it was personal. He wound up 5th.

He's not racing in the same races the champions are as weird as it is to say.

Do want to point out though the overtake on Ocon and Bottas yesterday were amazing, though I thought Red Bull sacrificed Danny Ric to get Max the place.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:46 pm 
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Zero pole positions.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:56 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


Personally I don't see Max getting rid of the over the top, low percentage passes and self centered driving or the petulant, juvenile tantrums. Until then he will lose as many races to his attitude as he wins on the basis of his talent. I hope we don't get to the place where his style of driving can win a WDC championship.

He'll figure it out as soon as it starts making him lose out to his peers. It's one thing for Max to see Hamilton winning championships but the moment he starts losing out to Leclerc or someone else his own age, he will learn that he must fix this aspect of his performance.


He has another potential issue on the horizon other than his driving style.

With both Merc & Ferrari appearing to have their respective heir apparents lined up for when Hamilton & Vettel move on, if the RB / Honda marriage doesn't bore the fruit Verstappen feels he deserves, he might find it difficult to get into the constructor teams should their #1 at that time be delivering the goods.

I'm not sure either team would risk bringing in such a polarising driver in that situation & I seriously doubt he'd get a start at Renault if they come good after panning their engine so graphically this year.

To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.

I doubt that. Should Hamilton walk away, I think Mercedes would immediately look to secure Max's services; understanding that, with Alonso retired, Max is perhaps the only driver capable of replicating Lewis's level of performance. Ultimately, performance is what matters most. The driver is a major aspect of performance. Without having Hamilton, Mercedes would not have won the championships these last two seasons. I think that Leclerc is likely to keep Ferrari content but I don't think for a second that someone like Bottas or Ocon would prevent Mercedes from pursuing Max in the event that Hamilton retires.

I agree and I don't understand the burning bridges comment, apart from the Renault engines Verstappen has not bad mouthed anyone else.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:58 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
He has another potential issue on the horizon other than his driving style.

With both Merc & Ferrari appearing to have their respective heir apparents lined up for when Hamilton & Vettel move on, if the RB / Honda marriage doesn't bore the fruit Verstappen feels he deserves, he might find it difficult to get into the constructor teams should their #1 at that time be delivering the goods.

I'm not sure either team would risk bringing in such a polarising driver in that situation & I seriously doubt he'd get a start at Renault if they come good after panning their engine so graphically this year.

To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.


I think those bridges are already in ashes at the bottom of the river. I can't believe that between now and the end of 2020, there won't be one of the hot shoe up and comers who won't be able to match Max's talent without all of the unwanted baggage that Max currently brings with him.

I don't think that Verstappen's talent grows on trees, he is above all the other young drivers.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:00 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well to me there's no doubt that he's extremely talented. His performances post-Monaco have generally been excellent. He's been the match of Hamilton in performance, producing the sort of level which could beat Hamilton should he be in similar machinery.

He's been impressive and is consistently dangerous (and also consistently dangerous, but that's being tempered as he grows and grows).

For me, he's like Hamilton circa 2009-2010. He's got top-level pace and fighting instincts but perhaps is a bit too aggressive at times. I think he's certainly ready to fight for a title but I'm not putting him on Hamilton's level at all. Races like Germany, Italy, Singapore and Japan from Hamilton were performances we've yet to see Max match. Had Max completed his win in Brazil, I might be with you but losing that race (the way he lost it) shows the difference between them IMO. It's mostly between the ears. But yeah, Max does seem to have that Hamilton/Alonso level of talent without question.


Personally I don't see Max getting rid of the over the top, low percentage passes and self centered driving or the petulant, juvenile tantrums. Until then he will lose as many races to his attitude as he wins on the basis of his talent. I hope we don't get to the place where his style of driving can win a WDC championship.


No doubt he'll end up dulled and tedious like all the other percentage playing multiple WDCs. Or maybe he won't, maybe he'll under achieve but go down as a reckless legend like Gilles Villeneuve.

Villenueve only had about 4 years in F1 and could have been WDC Champion one year if he had not decided to back up his more experienced teammate.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:02 pm 
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stevey wrote:
In my opinion he's good/great but he's not driving for championships, you can see in Lewis that he is driving with control because that what he needs to do to manage the car that eats tyres and save the engine. If he was in Max's boat not really driving for anything other than the odd race win then the Lewis of old would take control and in that Red Bull i think Lewis would eat him alive.

Look at the overtake attempt yesterday from Lewis, tested the waters, got passed, got retook and then backed off into clean air when he realised it would eat his tyres battling and it wasn't necessary as he had a race to win. Max would never do this, look at what happened when he fought Bottas at the Italian grand prix, he new it would ruin his race and lose a place to seb but came on his radio and said to his team that he didn't care as it was personal. He wound up 5th.

He's not racing in the same races the champions are as weird as it is to say.

Do want to point out though the overtake on Ocon and Bottas yesterday were amazing, though I thought Red Bull sacrificed Danny Ric to get Max the place.

Sorry but I don't think that banging wheels with drivers in order to pass them are amazing passes.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (6)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:08 pm 
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.

SIMPLISTICALLY, Verstappen has two examples he can follow, Hamilton and Vettel. Both were gifted young drivers, Hamilton has grown to be a mature driver who weighs the odds and THINKS, Vettel has still kept some of his wilder ways and makes poor decisions.

(Obviously there are other examples he can follow, or ......)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:20 pm 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Zero pole positions.

How many opportunities has he had though? 4? (being the 3 Ricciardo took + Mexico 2017) Would you not say that Hamilton and Vettel have missed out on at least 4 pole chances 2016-2018?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I doubt that. Should Hamilton walk away, I think Mercedes would immediately look to secure Max's services; understanding that, with Alonso retired, Max is perhaps the only driver capable of replicating Lewis's level of performance. Ultimately, performance is what matters most. The driver is a major aspect of performance. Without having Hamilton, Mercedes would not have won the championships these last two seasons. I think that Leclerc is likely to keep Ferrari content but I don't think for a second that someone like Bottas or Ocon would prevent Mercedes from pursuing Max in the event that Hamilton retires.

I agree and I don't understand the burning bridges comment, apart from the Renault engines Verstappen has not bad mouthed anyone else.

But that's one major engine manufacturer who may be turned off to Max already and he's barely 21 years old. This is something that can catch up to you over time. Look at Alonso's career for an example. Fernando could have been very fortunate because McLaren did give him another shot but it's clear that he burned his bridge at Renault as well as with Ferrari. As such, Fernando is out of F1 despite the fact that most people still rate him as top 3 on the grid. There is nothing to be gained from publicly disparaging engine manufacturers or big teams.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
stevey wrote:
In my opinion he's good/great but he's not driving for championships, you can see in Lewis that he is driving with control because that what he needs to do to manage the car that eats tyres and save the engine. If he was in Max's boat not really driving for anything other than the odd race win then the Lewis of old would take control and in that Red Bull i think Lewis would eat him alive.

Look at the overtake attempt yesterday from Lewis, tested the waters, got passed, got retook and then backed off into clean air when he realised it would eat his tyres battling and it wasn't necessary as he had a race to win. Max would never do this, look at what happened when he fought Bottas at the Italian grand prix, he new it would ruin his race and lose a place to seb but came on his radio and said to his team that he didn't care as it was personal. He wound up 5th.

He's not racing in the same races the champions are as weird as it is to say.

Do want to point out though the overtake on Ocon and Bottas yesterday were amazing, though I thought Red Bull sacrificed Danny Ric to get Max the place.

Sorry but I don't think that banging wheels with drivers in order to pass them are amazing passes.


Much sense in these comments, why bang wheels with Ocon as well to prove a point? His comment after the Bottas overtake was "he didn't see me coming" was very much of the playground, I just hope he calms down a bit, he can clearly win scraps but sustain a campaign?

Being forced to reign it in might actually take something away from his driving though.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I doubt that. Should Hamilton walk away, I think Mercedes would immediately look to secure Max's services; understanding that, with Alonso retired, Max is perhaps the only driver capable of replicating Lewis's level of performance. Ultimately, performance is what matters most. The driver is a major aspect of performance. Without having Hamilton, Mercedes would not have won the championships these last two seasons. I think that Leclerc is likely to keep Ferrari content but I don't think for a second that someone like Bottas or Ocon would prevent Mercedes from pursuing Max in the event that Hamilton retires.

I agree and I don't understand the burning bridges comment, apart from the Renault engines Verstappen has not bad mouthed anyone else.

But that's one major engine manufacturer who may be turned off to Max already and he's barely 21 years old. This is something that can catch up to you over time. Look at Alonso's career for an example. Fernando could have been very fortunate because McLaren did give him another shot but it's clear that he burned his bridge at Renault as well as with Ferrari. As such, Fernando is out of F1 despite the fact that most people still rate him as top 3 on the grid. There is nothing to be gained from publicly disparaging engine manufacturers or big teams.

I don't think the criticism is anywhere comparable to what Alonso has done over the years and in fact in respect to Renault when asked who was the driver of the year Cyril Atibeoule said Verstappen, I think given the chance Renault would sign him in a heartbeat.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.


When Mercedes took on Hamilton, at that time he was the most polarizing and tempestuous driver who had a lot of nasty baggage. If driver selection was based on personality and public relations appeal, we would see Justin Bieber and Nicki Minaj driving in Formula One.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.


When Mercedes took on Hamilton, at that time he was the most polarizing and tempestuous driver who had a lot of nasty baggage. If driver selection was based on personality and public relations appeal, we would see Justin Bieber and Nicki Minaj driving in Formula One.

Not even remotely true. Alonso firmly held that title at the time (has held that crown since at least 2007).


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:41 pm 
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^^^ Agreed!
By 2012 Hamilton had already changed the perception of himself in the eyes of most teams and had matured and had already departed from his previous at times tempestuous self. By then he was winning races despite being in a 2nd, 3rd or 4th best car and realized it was a TEAM effort every time out and sought to place emphasis on such every chance he got. That he got upset a few times and voiced his displeasure and discontent doesn’t mean he was still the same kid he once was. He was merely being a human being giving everything he had and then some, only to be let down by gargantuan mistakes by his team that cost him heavily to the point today he may well be a 6x champion and Vettel a 3x Champion. THAT’S the level of those mistakes and ANY human being of ANY AGE could easily be as upset as he was and understandably so!!!

So Mercedes taking him was a logical and sound choice and at no point did they feel they may be taking on a person who could potentially jeopardize anything for himself or the team/brand. If anything Lewis had more to lose than they did by going to a team that had at that time experienced the mildest of successes in their short time in the sport.

Verstappen has speed in him and has a superb understanding of calculating moves on drivers to negate advantages they gain on him, but then he’s all to eager to do things his way and refuses to give an inch, but will not hesitate to take a few meters regardless of it resulting in contact, because I’m his brain exists thenthought and feeling of entitlement which is THEEEE biggest character flaw any driver could ever have. He lacks all humility and THAT is off putting to potential employers who’d rather have a highly competitive and intense driver that is also personable, fair and prefers to give theninch andntry tondonthings cleanly because every black mark a driver earns while driving for a team also reflects on them. Just how Ted Bull, Horner and Marko back up Max’s actions blindly leaves ansalty taste in our mouths for them too, for doing so, rather than talk him off his perch and teach him how to be a better person and driver. There was once a thing called the Wild West and then Wyatt Earp showed up and taught the heathens their ways were simply not the way any longer.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:05 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.


When Mercedes took on Hamilton, at that time he was the most polarizing and tempestuous driver who had a lot of nasty baggage. If driver selection was based on personality and public relations appeal, we would see Justin Bieber and Nicki Minaj driving in Formula One.


Hamilton was already a world champion who was going to a team who at the time was not at the top of the tree and a considered a title contender. Merc had a clearly past his best Schumacher and an unproven Rosberg as their drivers. There was every reason in the world for them to hire Hamilton.

We all know one thing TP's consider when looking at their driver line up in team cohesion and harmony. Wolff showed us that just this year

https://www.news.com.au/sport/motorsport/formula-one/mercedes-resigns-valtteri-bottas-overlook-daniel-ricciardo-for-team-cohesion/news-story/23ff5a5cd21afe2c06ebff81f4fa77bf

“When we took the decision in favour of Valtteri for 2019, it wasn’t just about his undoubted speed and work ethic, but also a question of character,” Wolff said.

“His relationship with the team, including Lewis, is open and trusting, without any politics at all. Those are the ingredients you need when you’re fighting strong rivals in both championships and they mirror the values inside the team.”


If a driver got gigs based solely on their ability with no consideration given to their potential impact on team cohesion , Alonso wouldn't have been trundling around at the back of the grid for the last few years & Ricciardo would be in Merc or Ferrari next year.

Can you imagine Merc going out & chasing Verstappen if Ocon is winning races for them knowing what that partnership could lead to? Now you can't argue that Verstappen is not a considerably better driver than Ocon at the moment, even i'll admit that, but if Ocon's doing the job and winning races at Merc, why hire Verstappen no matter how much better a driver he is?

The same applies for Leclerc & Ricciardo. If they're delivering for their respective teams, why would any TP in their right mind go out & chase Verstappen knowing the kind of character he is? Do you think RB would go out & sign Hamilton if he was available if Verstappen was winning races for them?

Would anyone here hire Verstappen if their current line-up was winning races & championships?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.


we would see Justin Bieber and Nicki Minaj driving in Formula One.


Nicki Minaj would eat Max Verstappen alive................



Youtube


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:51 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
To me, Verstappen is risking burning a few vital career bridges with his driving and, mostly, his attitude.


When Mercedes took on Hamilton, at that time he was the most polarizing and tempestuous driver who had a lot of nasty baggage. If driver selection was based on personality and public relations appeal, we would see Justin Bieber and Nicki Minaj driving in Formula One.

Maybe in your world?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:11 am 
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Hamilton is driving at a level he can minimal mistakes and his pace and consistency is enough, despite an apparently slightly quicker Ferrari at the moment. If verstappen is fighting for a title not the odd race win he will have to take less risks, and at some point Hamilton may be faced to take more. Verstappen has pace though so will definitely be interesting to see who prevails. My money would still be on Hamilton but max keeps improving.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:34 am 
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Had to laugh - “I think anyway I’m already very hardly treated by that, so we’ll find something suitable, because I’m not going to look like an idiot.” That was dear Max commenting on his upcoming public service. Link here - https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-wont- ... c-service/

Well that will be a rather tricky one to pull off, methinks. Gifted driver he may be but the sainted Max has amply demonstrated a decent level of idiocy with his behaviour on and off-track.

I wonder if maturity will ever descend on him.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:48 am 
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Verstappen can't even overtake someone without hitting them.

He did it yet again on Sunday.

Nope, Verstappen is an extremely immature driver (and person) who pushes beyond his ability too often.

The guy hasn't completed a weekend in Monaco without putting it hard into a barrier. I might be wrong, but didn't do a repeat this year, making the exact same mistake around the swimming pool as he had in earlier year? That's extremely poor at that level of driving.

Want another example? Brazil. Verstappen was an idiot. Complete idiot. Poor racing, poor decision making and zero maturity to reflect on how he fúcked it up. Noone else, just him.


Compare with Lewis on Sunday after his stop. He quickly closed on Verstappen, made a pass, was passed back, and then decided he didn't need to fight for track position. Skilful, professional, driving within his capability, not beyond it.



Nah, Verstappen has a lot to prove yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:22 pm 
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I think it takes more than raw single lap or wet pace to be the “best” driver.

It’s obviously the top factor, but Max has some big weaknesses.

Racecraft - he has had a lot of collisions this year when passing or being passed.
Emotion - when something doesn’t go his way he can’t control himself.
Monaco - this is a driver’s track but he seems to find the wall, he oversteps the mark

He must be good to outpace a driver like Ricciardo (more often than not), but he is well behind on racecraft and that is such an important skill for an F1 driver. If you spin or crash every few races the world title is going to evade you.

Max is exciting to watch, but the best? No, I’m not sure he can claim that yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:31 pm 
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The current narrative is that he has improved his race craft since Monaco and has become this crafty racer. I don't buy it. He is still Max, he is still raw in wheel to wheel combat and does not often make the right decisions. It's only a matter of time when he has a flurry of bad races again imo.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:10 pm 
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Huw wrote:
Had to laugh - “I think anyway I’m already very hardly treated by that, so we’ll find something suitable, because I’m not going to look like an idiot.” That was dear Max commenting on his upcoming public service. Link here - https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-wont- ... c-service/

Well that will be a rather tricky one to pull off, methinks. Gifted driver he may be but the sainted Max has amply demonstrated a decent level of idiocy with his behaviour on and off-track.

I wonder if maturity will ever descend on him.

Yeah I saw that as well, I will decide how I'm going to be punished.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:04 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Huw wrote:
Had to laugh - “I think anyway I’m already very hardly treated by that, so we’ll find something suitable, because I’m not going to look like an idiot.” That was dear Max commenting on his upcoming public service. Link here - https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-wont- ... c-service/

Well that will be a rather tricky one to pull off, methinks. Gifted driver he may be but the sainted Max has amply demonstrated a decent level of idiocy with his behaviour on and off-track.

I wonder if maturity will ever descend on him.

Yeah I saw that as well, I will decide how I'm going to be punished.


And of course that toothless tiger we all know as the FIA will accommodate Max's wishes.

Surely he's the first driver in F1 history to have a say in the type of punishment he gets. I can't remember another driver being allowed such input.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:13 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Huw wrote:
Had to laugh - “I think anyway I’m already very hardly treated by that, so we’ll find something suitable, because I’m not going to look like an idiot.” That was dear Max commenting on his upcoming public service. Link here - https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-wont- ... c-service/

Well that will be a rather tricky one to pull off, methinks. Gifted driver he may be but the sainted Max has amply demonstrated a decent level of idiocy with his behaviour on and off-track.

I wonder if maturity will ever descend on him.

Yeah I saw that as well, I will decide how I'm going to be punished.


And of course that toothless tiger we all know as the FIA will accommodate Max's wishes.

Surely he's the first driver in F1 history to have a say in the type of punishment he gets. I can't remember another driver being allowed such input.


Let's see. That's what Max says, remains to be seen if the FIA will show him that no one is above the show.


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