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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:15 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo


I don't think that's all too fair. He had the big disadvantage of having no build-up to the season in that car. No pre-season testing means lots and lots of missed kilometers in the car to familiarize yourself with it, and during racing weekends you're not going anywhere near a full testing day. Given 6 full-day pre season testing days per driver, and four racing weekends not in the RB12, he started with about 12 racing weekends worth of kilometers less than Ricciardo. He still managed to catch up his single-lap pace by the second half of the season though, and his race pace was not much different from Ricciardo's most of the time. So he actually did very well to work away the disadvantage.


Quote:
wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.


Well, I agree that Verstappen with just a season of F3 under his belt and nothing more would not have beaten Alonso.

I do think he did a good job against Sainz, who did have a lot of experience in single seater racing, and got to compete in a top flight series. I do think he was a lot better than Sainz - just not in the single lap department.


This is a reason I think the Verstappens have "cheated" the system because he effectively has a get out of jail free card. When would the comparison be fair between Max and his colleagues? How many years are there left of mistakes and misjudgement before we can compare Max?
Sainz Jr. was a Formula 1 rookie and NO Doctor(I am not talking about Herr Marko here) ordered Max to completely bypass the lower series to start his F1 career so he should be judged against others using the same rules(In this case experience in the series).
It is a bit as you expecting your quantum mechanics teacher to show leniency just because you didn't do the prerequisites and need time "to catch up"(granted there we no prerequisites for F1 thanks to the ineptitude of FIA, but you get the gist) for the course.
NO driver should hold a disadvantage just because he paid his dues in lower series.

Age in itself is not a merit.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:32 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
This is a reason I think the Verstappens have "cheated" the system because he effectively has a get out of jail free card. When would the comparison be fair between Max and his colleagues? How many years are there left of mistakes and misjudgement before we can compare Max?

This season Max has made exactly one costly mistake all season (Hungary), that's the same number of mistakes as Hamilton has made (Bahrain).

Something you've been ignoring is that Verstappen has outqualified Ricciardo more often than Hamilton has outqualified Bottas. Max has been out-qualified 4 times; in China he had no engine, so 3 times on merit. Hamilton has been outqualified 5 times. That's not even taking into consideration that Ricciardo is a better driver than Bottas.

What does that tell you?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:35 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo


I don't think that's all too fair. He had the big disadvantage of having no build-up to the season in that car. No pre-season testing means lots and lots of missed kilometers in the car to familiarize yourself with it, and during racing weekends you're not going anywhere near a full testing day. Given 6 full-day pre season testing days per driver, and four racing weekends not in the RB12, he started with about 12 racing weekends worth of kilometers less than Ricciardo. He still managed to catch up his single-lap pace by the second half of the season though, and his race pace was not much different from Ricciardo's most of the time. So he actually did very well to work away the disadvantage.


Quote:
wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.


Well, I agree that Verstappen with just a season of F3 under his belt and nothing more would not have beaten Alonso.

I do think he did a good job against Sainz, who did have a lot of experience in single seater racing, and got to compete in a top flight series. I do think he was a lot better than Sainz - just not in the single lap department.


This is a reason I think the Verstappens have "cheated" the system because he effectively has a get out of jail free card. When would the comparison be fair between Max and his colleagues? How many years are there left of mistakes and misjudgement before we can compare Max?
Sainz Jr. was a Formula 1 rookie and NO Doctor(I am not talking about Herr Marko here) ordered Max to completely bypass the lower series to start his F1 career so he should be judged against others using the same rules(In this case experience in the series).
It is a bit as you expecting your quantum mechanics teacher to show leniency just because you didn't do the prerequisites and need time "to catch up"(granted there we no prerequisites for F1 thanks to the ineptitude of FIA, but you get the gist) for the course.
NO driver should hold a disadvantage just because he paid his dues in lower series.

Age in itself is not a merit.

I don't think anyone is giving either driver an advantage or disadvantage due to age. Most comparisons have been on what they have achieved at a similar age, i.e. a level playing field. As far as I can see people are simply taking what experience they had in single seater racing at that stage


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:45 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
This is a reason I think the Verstappens have "cheated" the system because he effectively has a get out of jail free card. When would the comparison be fair between Max and his colleagues? How many years are there left of mistakes and misjudgement before we can compare Max?

This season Max has made exactly one costly mistake all season (Hungary), that's the same number of mistakes as Hamilton has made (Bahrain).

Something you've been ignoring is that Verstappen has outqualified Ricciardo more often than Hamilton has outqualified Bottas. Max has been out-qualified 4 times; in China he had no engine, so 3 times on merit. Hamilton has been outqualified 5 times. That's not even taking into consideration that Ricciardo is a better driver than Bottas.

What does that tell you?


I have never rated Ricciardo that highly and I think that Max would not outqualify Sainz Jr. the way he is doing against Ricciardo. What does that tell you?
Hamilton will obliterate Ricciardo if they were teammate. He is failing to outpace his less experienced teammate and you expect him to do better than Bottas just because he did beat Vettel in 2014?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo


I don't think that's all too fair. He had the big disadvantage of having no build-up to the season in that car. No pre-season testing means lots and lots of missed kilometers in the car to familiarize yourself with it, and during racing weekends you're not going anywhere near a full testing day. Given 6 full-day pre season testing days per driver, and four racing weekends not in the RB12, he started with about 12 racing weekends worth of kilometers less than Ricciardo. He still managed to catch up his single-lap pace by the second half of the season though, and his race pace was not much different from Ricciardo's most of the time. So he actually did very well to work away the disadvantage.


Quote:
wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.


Well, I agree that Verstappen with just a season of F3 under his belt and nothing more would not have beaten Alonso.

I do think he did a good job against Sainz, who did have a lot of experience in single seater racing, and got to compete in a top flight series. I do think he was a lot better than Sainz - just not in the single lap department.


This is a reason I think the Verstappens have "cheated" the system because he effectively has a get out of jail free card. When would the comparison be fair between Max and his colleagues? How many years are there left of mistakes and misjudgement before we can compare Max?
Sainz Jr. was a Formula 1 rookie and NO Doctor(I am not talking about Herr Marko here) ordered Max to completely bypass the lower series to start his F1 career so he should be judged against others using the same rules(In this case experience in the series).
It is a bit as you expecting your quantum mechanics teacher to show leniency just because you didn't do the prerequisites and need time "to catch up"(granted there we no prerequisites for F1 thanks to the ineptitude of FIA, but you get the gist) for the course.
NO driver should hold a disadvantage just because he paid his dues in lower series.

Age in itself is not a merit.

I don't think anyone is giving either driver an advantage or disadvantage due to age. Most comparisons have been on what they have achieved at a similar age, i.e. a level playing field. As far as I can see people are simply taking what experience they had in single seater racing at that stage


They are racing in Formula 1. Otherwise let's agree that Verstappen has "free" years ahead of him.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:55 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
I have never rated Ricciardo that highly and I think that Max would not outqualify Sainz Jr. the way he is doing against Ricciardo. What does that tell you?
Hamilton will obliterate Ricciardo if they were teammate. He is failing to outpace his less experienced teammate and you expect him to do better than Bottas just because he did beat Vettel in 2014?

I don't rate Bottas highly at all. He struggled to beat a past-his-prime Massa. Ricciardo would undeniably do a better job against Hamilton than Bottas. Prior to this year, most people also rated Ricciardo above Rosberg.

"His less experienced teammate" happens to be the biggest talent Formula 1 has seen in decades. The fact that Verstappen is beating Ricciardo so convincingly in qualifying is not a knock on Ricciardo. It's a testament to Verstappen's enormous talent.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:55 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo


I don't think that's all too fair. He had the big disadvantage of having no build-up to the season in that car. No pre-season testing means lots and lots of missed kilometers in the car to familiarize yourself with it, and during racing weekends you're not going anywhere near a full testing day. Given 6 full-day pre season testing days per driver, and four racing weekends not in the RB12, he started with about 12 racing weekends worth of kilometers less than Ricciardo. He still managed to catch up his single-lap pace by the second half of the season though, and his race pace was not much different from Ricciardo's most of the time. So he actually did very well to work away the disadvantage.


Quote:
wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.


Well, I agree that Verstappen with just a season of F3 under his belt and nothing more would not have beaten Alonso.

I do think he did a good job against Sainz, who did have a lot of experience in single seater racing, and got to compete in a top flight series. I do think he was a lot better than Sainz - just not in the single lap department.


This is a reason I think the Verstappens have "cheated" the system because he effectively has a get out of jail free card. When would the comparison be fair between Max and his colleagues? How many years are there left of mistakes and misjudgement before we can compare Max?
Sainz Jr. was a Formula 1 rookie and NO Doctor(I am not talking about Herr Marko here) ordered Max to completely bypass the lower series to start his F1 career so he should be judged against others using the same rules(In this case experience in the series).
It is a bit as you expecting your quantum mechanics teacher to show leniency just because you didn't do the prerequisites and need time "to catch up"(granted there we no prerequisites for F1 thanks to the ineptitude of FIA, but you get the gist) for the course.
NO driver should hold a disadvantage just because he paid his dues in lower series.

Age in itself is not a merit.

I don't think anyone is giving either driver an advantage or disadvantage due to age. Most comparisons have been on what they have achieved at a similar age, i.e. a level playing field. As far as I can see people are simply taking what experience they had in single seater racing at that stage


They are racing in Formula 1. Otherwise let's agree that Verstappen has "free" years ahead of him.

Why? all you have to do is look at comparative racing experience at the same age. There doesn't have to be "free" anything


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:58 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I have never rated Ricciardo that highly and I think that Max would not outqualify Sainz Jr. the way he is doing against Ricciardo. What does that tell you?
Hamilton will obliterate Ricciardo if they were teammate. He is failing to outpace his less experienced teammate and you expect him to do better than Bottas just because he did beat Vettel in 2014?

I don't rate Bottas highly at all. He struggled to beat a past-his-prime Massa. Ricciardo would undeniably do a better job against Hamilton than Bottas. Prior to this year, most people also rated Ricciardo above Rosberg.

"His less experienced teammate" happens to be the biggest talent Formula 1 has seen in decades. The fact that Verstappen is beating Ricciardo so convincingly in qualifying is not a knock on Ricciardo. It's a testament to Verstappen's enormous talent.

Agree about Bottas. I've never rated him particularly high myself.

With regard to Verstappen, it's his third year in F1. I'm not sure "less experienced" is applicable anymore.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:04 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I have never rated Ricciardo that highly and I think that Max would not outqualify Sainz Jr. the way he is doing against Ricciardo. What does that tell you?
Hamilton will obliterate Ricciardo if they were teammate. He is failing to outpace his less experienced teammate and you expect him to do better than Bottas just because he did beat Vettel in 2014?

I don't rate Bottas highly at all. He struggled to beat a past-his-prime Massa. Ricciardo would undeniably do a better job against Hamilton than Bottas. Prior to this year, most people also rated Ricciardo above Rosberg.

"His less experienced teammate" happens to be the biggest talent Formula 1 has seen in decades. The fact that Verstappen is beating Ricciardo so convincingly in qualifying is not a knock on Ricciardo. It's a testament to Verstappen's enormous talent.


Let's see him against Hamilton before passing this final judgement.
He didn't arrive in F1 with a BANG like Hamilton, that's for sure. So for the moment the biggest talent in decades tag is more suited to Hamilton.
As for rating Ricciardo over Rosberg, we have already seen how clueless some pundits are when they rate people or make predictions(Example: Hamilton has killed his career with the Mercedes move, Hamilton only wants money).

Rosberg was not only better than Ricciardo in qualifying(where WDC are won) but also in the rain(where the Australian will be embarassed in the same car against Hamilton).


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:12 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I have never rated Ricciardo that highly and I think that Max would not outqualify Sainz Jr. the way he is doing against Ricciardo. What does that tell you?
Hamilton will obliterate Ricciardo if they were teammate. He is failing to outpace his less experienced teammate and you expect him to do better than Bottas just because he did beat Vettel in 2014?

I don't rate Bottas highly at all. He struggled to beat a past-his-prime Massa. Ricciardo would undeniably do a better job against Hamilton than Bottas. Prior to this year, most people also rated Ricciardo above Rosberg.

"His less experienced teammate" happens to be the biggest talent Formula 1 has seen in decades. The fact that Verstappen is beating Ricciardo so convincingly in qualifying is not a knock on Ricciardo. It's a testament to Verstappen's enormous talent.


Let's see him against Hamilton before passing this final judgement.
He didn't arrive in F1 with a BANG like Hamilton, that's for sure. So for the moment the biggest talent in decades tag is more suited to Hamilton.
As for rating Ricciardo over Rosberg, we have already seen how clueless some pundits are when they rate people or make predictions(Example: Hamilton has killed his career with the Mercedes move, Hamilton only wants money).

Rosberg was not only better than Ricciardo in qualifying(where WDC are won) but also in the rain(where the Australian will be embarassed in the same car against Hamilton).

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that. Hamilton certainly arrived with a BANG, as you put it, but there again so did Max. I'd say there was a pretty similar level of excitement when he came aboard.

Agree in general about pundits not always getting it right, but to be fair pretty much everyone questioned the Mercedes move at the time, especially since McLaren were a definite top team then. They may well have been right on the money part: we'll never know for sure.

How do you conclude Rosberg was better than Ricciardo in qualifying or the rain? How do we compare?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:29 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
This is a reason I think the Verstappens have "cheated" the system because he effectively has a get out of jail free card.


No, I don't agree in the slightest. The reason he bypassed is because he was the next hot property, they were fighting to sign him, and he/they could make their demands. And so they demanded an F1 seat.
Why drive in F3 for another year, or in GP3, or in GP2, when you can get yourself into an F1 seat?

Quote:
When would the comparison be fair between Max and his colleagues? How many years are there left of mistakes and misjudgement before we can compare Max?


You can compare at will, but why not take the full picture into account? Every driver has a different history and a different career, and you take all of it into account to be able to judge.

Quote:
NO driver should hold a disadvantage just because he paid his dues in lower series.


Sainz wasn't at a disadvantage because he paid his dues in lower series, he was at a disadvantage because Verstappen did better than him despite his inexperience in car racing in general. It's as simple as that.

Maybe you should ask RBR and Mercedes why they fought over Verstappen back when he was still in F3, despite not being in the lead of that series. Or ask RBR why Verstappen was promoted to RBR instead of Sainz, despite being even in qualifying. Or ask Ferrari and Mercedes why they are gearing up to sign Verstappen first and anyone else second, despite trailing Ricciardo in the points.

Apparently the ones taking the actual shots are not of the same opinion as you, that you just look at what is happening in the now without taking the full context into account.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:48 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I have never rated Ricciardo that highly and I think that Max would not outqualify Sainz Jr. the way he is doing against Ricciardo. What does that tell you?
Hamilton will obliterate Ricciardo if they were teammate. He is failing to outpace his less experienced teammate and you expect him to do better than Bottas just because he did beat Vettel in 2014?

I don't rate Bottas highly at all. He struggled to beat a past-his-prime Massa. Ricciardo would undeniably do a better job against Hamilton than Bottas. Prior to this year, most people also rated Ricciardo above Rosberg.

"His less experienced teammate" happens to be the biggest talent Formula 1 has seen in decades. The fact that Verstappen is beating Ricciardo so convincingly in qualifying is not a knock on Ricciardo. It's a testament to Verstappen's enormous talent.


Let's see him against Hamilton before passing this final judgement.
He didn't arrive in F1 with a BANG like Hamilton, that's for sure. So for the moment the biggest talent in decades tag is more suited to Hamilton.
As for rating Ricciardo over Rosberg, we have already seen how clueless some pundits are when they rate people or make predictions(Example: Hamilton has killed his career with the Mercedes move, Hamilton only wants money).

Rosberg was not only better than Ricciardo in qualifying(where WDC are won) but also in the rain(where the Australian will be embarassed in the same car against Hamilton).


Rubbish. Dan generally isn't as good in the wet as Seb or Max but that doesn't translate to him being poor in the wet. He's never had an embarrassing display, Brazil last year is probably the worst, but it's nothing like Monaco or Japan for Rosberg where he was seconds off the pace. Nico got straight up beat by Alonso in a McLaren-Honda on pace, he was terrible in the wet. Dan also ran rings around both Nico and Lewis in USA 2015 on the Inters and would have won Monaco in the wet last year without his pit crew going AWOL while Nico was getting mugged off by Alonso down in the midfield.

I'd pick Dan over Nico on a Saturday as well. Nico was up and down against Lewis and when he went to a more balanced set up for the race in 2015 he got well and truly spanked and while Dan has got beat for the first time over a season this year a handful of those defeats were by less than a tenth which is nothing and could easily have gone the other way.

It looks a big defeat on paper (11-4) but Silverstone he had car trouble,he binned it twice and those few close battles with next to nothing in it make a big difference. (No excuse for binning it, that highlights the pressure Max has put on him). Just a couple of those half a tenth sessions go his way instead and you're looking at a 9-6 type score which I think is a pretty normal score for 2 top qualifiers.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:55 am 
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I think Lotus has put the qualifying well into perspective - when there is .1 or less of a second difference - it's pretty much even.

If we look at Malaysia - others have done the analysis - but on the wet side of the track (without illegal drying) - that makes it significantly more difficult for Dan than Max - and if Dan had been in front of Bottas then I'm sure it would have been a 1-2 RBR - and not necessarily MV first.

Lewis didn't really fight against Max on his overtake - and after getting past Bottas - from memory Dan got to 4 secs from Lewis - but by keeping him out longer - Dan came out after pitstops 12+ secs down.

If RBR had brought Dan in earlier, then Dan no doubt would have challenged Lewis and probably overtaken - and the pace from DR vs MV was - err, essentially the same

It's like that fantastic wet pace from Max - not matched by Dan - when Dan had the wrong wing settings. Then Dan gets the same settings and is FASTER than Max and nearly catches and overtakes him 'DESPITE' losing a lot of time with a poorly handling car - so I don't buy that Dan is other than perhaps a touch worse in the wet (and he might be) - but I wonder if that's also that Dan plays the odds better and only pushes the absolute limit when he has to. That's more Prost like.

I'd rather see all the top drivers in cars that enabled them to win if they (rather than luck) were the factor. I have no doubt that Max would win on merit many times - but I suspect that Dan would also and maximise his points as well.

Max is IMO (as noted in other threads) one of the top 5 drivers in F1 currently - but so is Dan and you would write him off at your peril - as I think he's ahead of Vettel in that top 5 - and perhaps Alonso as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:59 am 
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I don't really see evidence that Ricciardo would have probably overtaken Hamilton. He did lose a lot of time after his pitstop given how long he was kept out but he never got close to Hamilton, who also likely had pace in hand to defend against a real charge, albeit less pace in hand than Max.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I don't really see evidence that Ricciardo would have probably overtaken Hamilton. He did lose a lot of time after his pitstop given how long he was kept out but he never got close to Hamilton, who also likely had pace in hand to defend against a real charge, albeit less pace in hand than Max.


If he's never behind Bottas I think he gets Lewis at some point. He'd chuck it up the inside from a long way away and Lewis would do the smart thing I think.

Once Dan saw Lewis not put up a fight with Max just ahead he'd try it himself or from further even at some point. Mercedes were struggling on the SS but better on the S so if he'd have to do it before the pit stop though.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:06 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I don't really see evidence that Ricciardo would have probably overtaken Hamilton. He did lose a lot of time after his pitstop given how long he was kept out but he never got close to Hamilton, who also likely had pace in hand to defend against a real charge, albeit less pace in hand than Max.


Invade - Dan had closed down on Lewis despite having to fight hard to overtake Bottas - and had the same pace as Max - while Lewis may have fought harder against Dan than he did against Max (when he didn't really fight) - then I have no doubt that there would have been a contest - but it's hard to lose 8+ secs by poor pit stop strategy as Dan did with RBR - but fair enough that the overtake was not a foregone conclusion given Seb was suddenly getting good points and Lewis would be aware of that


Last edited by F1Oz on Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:07 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Invade wrote:
I don't really see evidence that Ricciardo would have probably overtaken Hamilton. He did lose a lot of time after his pitstop given how long he was kept out but he never got close to Hamilton, who also likely had pace in hand to defend against a real charge, albeit less pace in hand than Max.


If he's never behind Bottas I think he gets Lewis at some point. He'd chuck it up the inside from a long way away and Lewis would do the smart thing I think.

Once Dan saw Lewis not put up a fight with Max just ahead he'd try it himself or from further even at some point. Mercedes were struggling on the SS but better on the S so if he'd have to do it before the pit stop though.


Yeah - I can agree that ups the chances massively. He had to battle with Bottas for quite a while. Lewis would probably feel more comfortable in trying to defend against Ricciardo given his reputation in race-craft but would have still had a safety first mindset, though Vettel's ever improving position may have altered his perspective.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:12 pm 
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I'd like to see Max in a competitive car - ie. competitive over the whole season with Hamilton. Same goes for Ricciardo, Alonso and Vettel. Other drivers such as Hulkenberg or Sainz might also be competitive in a competitive car.

The sooner any of those things happen, the better for F1.

This year was hyped as a great battle between Hamilton and Vettel - and that lasted 2/3 of the season. Bottas hasn't looked like a threat to Hamilton, but has won races. The rest of 2017, the title race is dead.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:33 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
If RBR had brought Dan in earlier, then Dan no doubt would have challenged Lewis and probably overtaken - and the pace from DR vs MV was - err, essentially the same


Dan's pace, who was first trying to catch Hamilton and then had to fend of a fast approaching Vettel, was the same as Max's pace, who had a controlling race at the front and didn't push further when the gap was "enough".

I wouldn't say their pace potential was necessarily the same. Who says Max couldn't have gone faster?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:10 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
I'd like to see Max in a competitive car - ie. competitive over the whole season with Hamilton. Same goes for Ricciardo, Alonso and Vettel. Other drivers such as Hulkenberg or Sainz might also be competitive in a competitive car.

The sooner any of those things happen, the better for F1.

This year was hyped as a great battle between Hamilton and Vettel - and that lasted 2/3 of the season. Bottas hasn't looked like a threat to Hamilton, but has won races. The rest of 2017, the title race is dead.


Sainz vs Hulk next year will be very interesting.
What if Hulk smashes Sainz? Does that then put Hulk in the top driver conversation?
Perez vs Hulk was close but Perez liked the old rubber far more and is only just in front of Ocon.

I personally think Vettel would be beaten by Alonso, Dan, Ham and possibly Max over a season in the same car.
The only other driver on the grid I possibly rate up with these guys is Hulk.
Sainz and Ocon do also look the goods, however is too hard and to soon to tell.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:20 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo and wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.

Not all rookies are equal. Verstappen was 17 and had one season of single seater experience. Hamilton was 22 and had 6 years of single seater experience.

Verstappen in 2017 is still less experienced than Hamilton was in 2007, and he's easily as good as Hamilton was in 2007. He has battered a very good driver Ricciardo in qualifying, and would be comfortably ahead of him in the standings too if not for some atrocious luck.

pokerman wrote:
No but then again neither would a 2015 Verstappen.

see above.

I'm sure it was said that a 2015 Verstappen would have done just as well as Hamilton in 2007, so basically saying he would have been at the same level as Alonso.

A 2017 Verstappen has far more F1 experience than a 2007 Hamilton, I daresay that if Hamilton had joined F1 in 2005 he would have been a better driver than what he was in 2007.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:33 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
2004

1. Green (ART)
2. Premat (ART)
4. Rosberg
5. Hamilton
7. Kubica

2005

1. Hamilton (ART)
2. Sutil (ART)
5. Vettel
10. di Resta

2006

1. di Resta (ART)
2. Vettel (ART)
12. Buemi
13. Grosjean

2007

1. Grosjean (ART)
2. Buemi
3. Hulkenberg (ART)
4. Kobayashi (ART)

You sure it's just about ART getting the best drivers?


In the knowledge that drivers get better in their second season in a series: yes?
I mean the graduation rate of those drivers towards F1 is very high - I don't think you'd make a case for them being painted in a good light by being at ART and they just were lucky to be there, if not they'd not be in F1 on merit?

I think that highlights that the best drivers end up (or used to end up) at ART, supporting the chicken/egg theory.

Quote:
I'm not disagreeing with the case you are making for Verstappen, just that you're being a bit unfair on Hamilton.


Don't see how I'm being unfair on Hamilton... The only thing I'm saying is that the idea that Hamilton was "even better than Verstappen" at same age isn't supported by facts.

I wonder how you define drivers that finished 10th and 13th in the series as being outstanding drivers when all the cars are supposedly equal?

I'm not sure who said that Hamilton was better I'm just pointing out that your methodology for proving that Verstappen was better is flawed perhaps because of a lack of knowledge?

I could make a better job of it in respect to Verstappen but as a Hamilton fan I feel inclined. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:39 pm 
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mds wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When Hamilton competed in F3 it was 2 rungs down from F1, when Verstappen competed in F3 it was 3 rungs down from F1, the driver that won the title, Ocon then went into GP3.

Hamilton competed in the F3 Euroseries which later got disbanded and replaced by GP3, F3 then later got rehashed but at a lower level to what it was originally.


And Verstappen was a single seater rookie outright, and he still went up against some promising drivers.

But this dicussion doesn't even have to revolve around their first seasons in F3. The statement was simple, "aged 20 Hamilton was better than Verstappen". And then the plain simple facts are Hamilton had just come fifth in F3 while Verstappen has just imperiously won an F1 race. That statement was nonsense.

I fully get your argument but pokerman outlined the layers to the information you're basing your opinion on and you're dismissing it.


I'm also pointing out things he isn't taking into account - like Verstappen being an absolute car racing rookie in F3 when he started and how that works to his disadvantage when comparing their rookie F3 seasons.

But as I said, we don't even have to compare their rookie F3 seasons. Point is that Hamilton, aged 20, was driving in F3 while Verstappen, aged 20, is a frontrunner in F1, has very much earned his place and is hot property, arguably top 4 driver or at least top 5.

One simply can't say Hamilton was better, aged 20, than Verstappen is, aged 20. I'm not saying he was much worse or something, but really nothing will make a convincing or compelling argument for him being better - there only seem to be mitigating factors (not being at ART being the prime one) for why he came fifth in F3.

I get what you are saying about their karting careers, I won't dispute it, but I wasn't saying Max's karting career was better than Hamilton's. I was saying two things mainly:
1. Verstappen was also very experienced in karts by the time he got to single seaters
2. He was also regarded as a phenomenon in karts, and regardless of Hamilton having a harder time, Max did set a few very noteworthy records as mentioned before. It's his karting performances that got him on the radar to begin with, in Europe everybody was talking about him way before he came to single seaters.


Quote:
It really is not apples to apples and one thing I want everyone to keep in mind is that I rate Max very highly so it's not like I'm bashing on him. He is indeed quite fast, but at times he compensates for lack of speed with aggressive tactics where for the most part has seen him be lucky the other guy was quick enough to avoid accidents. In Monaco in particular where drivers are likely tested more extremely than on any other circuit in the world, he's crashed a couple of times. And while it can happen to anyone due to the extreme close confines spanning the entire length of the circuit, it happened to him. That in and of itself speaks volumes as to where he falls in line with the top guys. Hamilton botched it twice himself but not while trying to go fast on the limit. At least that I can recall off the top of my head. Once in China entering the pits and Canada 2008 but he was in the mix for a championship for the 2nd year in succession. Max has yet to challenge for one but I stated months ago he is better than his highly touted teammate and was told I was wrong because the points since last year didn't support my argument. I have no doubt Max will become one of the top drivers soon enough, but right now IMPO that's not the case just yet and I find Hamilton was better at 20 than max is today, but I think you really have to go back and watch Lewis's 2007 & 2008 performances back to see how excellent he was at 20 to see understand why I see it that way.


Well, I could agree with most of this paragraph, but the bit in bold is puzzling me a bit... Hamilton was 22-23 in 2007-2008. How does that tell us how good he was a few years before that?

Just replying to your first paragraph, yet again I have to say that the F3 that Hamilton competed in was at a higher level, you're actually close with your statement but you're just comparing the wrong years, I'm giving you a clue there.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:15 pm 
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Verstappen at 20 is better than Hamilton at 20 - Hamilton after 3 seasons in F1 was better than Verstappen is after 3 seasons in F1.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo and wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.

Not all rookies are equal. Verstappen was 17 and had one season of single seater experience. Hamilton was 22 and had 6 years of single seater experience.

Verstappen in 2017 is still less experienced than Hamilton was in 2007, and he's easily as good as Hamilton was in 2007. He has battered a very good driver Ricciardo in qualifying, and would be comfortably ahead of him in the standings too if not for some atrocious luck.

pokerman wrote:
No but then again neither would a 2015 Verstappen.

see above.

I'm sure it was said that a 2015 Verstappen would have done just as well as Hamilton in 2007, so basically saying he would have been at the same level as Alonso.

A 2017 Verstappen has far more F1 experience than a 2007 Hamilton, I daresay that if Hamilton had joined F1 in 2005 he would have been a better driver than what he was in 2007.

That's getting into coulda woulda shoulda territory, though. What was being debated was how well they compared at the same age, not what they might have done


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:26 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Verstappen in his second season got beat by Ricciardo


I don't think that's all too fair. He had the big disadvantage of having no build-up to the season in that car. No pre-season testing means lots and lots of missed kilometers in the car to familiarize yourself with it, and during racing weekends you're not going anywhere near a full testing day. Given 6 full-day pre season testing days per driver, and four racing weekends not in the RB12, he started with about 12 racing weekends worth of kilometers less than Ricciardo. He still managed to catch up his single-lap pace by the second half of the season though, and his race pace was not much different from Ricciardo's most of the time. So he actually did very well to work away the disadvantage.


Quote:
wasn't night and day better than Sainz in his rookie season when Sainz himself was a rookie, yet you see him beating Alonso in his first season, the hype machine is in overdrive.


Well, I agree that Verstappen with just a season of F3 under his belt and nothing more would not have beaten Alonso.

I do think he did a good job against Sainz, who did have a lot of experience in single seater racing, and got to compete in a top flight series. I do think he was a lot better than Sainz - just not in the single lap department.

The Alonso comparison was the only thing I was really questioning.

Like it or not Sainz's present high standard is because how well he did in comparison to Verstappen unless you think it's because he beat Kvyat?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:26 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen at 20 is better than Hamilton at 20 - Hamilton after 3 seasons in F1 was better than Verstappen is after 3 seasons in F1.

Fair and sensible. You'll get hammered for it. :]

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen at 20 is better than Hamilton at 20 - Hamilton after 3 seasons in F1 was better than Verstappen is after 3 seasons in F1.

was he, though. His 2008 was pretty scrappy, so even though he won it wasn't really a stellar year. Most seem to be in agreement that it was (one of) Hamilton's wprst seasons ever (as far as driving prowess goes). 2009 only really kicked off in the second half, where he did do a stellar job, but Max hasn't exactly driven poorly this year, either.

Not trying to knock either of them, but I wouldn't be able to state with any certainty which one was definitely better in their third season


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:37 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I have never rated Ricciardo that highly and I think that Max would not outqualify Sainz Jr. the way he is doing against Ricciardo. What does that tell you?
Hamilton will obliterate Ricciardo if they were teammate. He is failing to outpace his less experienced teammate and you expect him to do better than Bottas just because he did beat Vettel in 2014?

I don't rate Bottas highly at all. He struggled to beat a past-his-prime Massa. Ricciardo would undeniably do a better job against Hamilton than Bottas. Prior to this year, most people also rated Ricciardo above Rosberg.

"His less experienced teammate" happens to be the biggest talent Formula 1 has seen in decades. The fact that Verstappen is beating Ricciardo so convincingly in qualifying is not a knock on Ricciardo. It's a testament to Verstappen's enormous talent.


Let's see him against Hamilton before passing this final judgement.
He didn't arrive in F1 with a BANG like Hamilton, that's for sure. So for the moment the biggest talent in decades tag is more suited to Hamilton.
As for rating Ricciardo over Rosberg, we have already seen how clueless some pundits are when they rate people or make predictions(Example: Hamilton has killed his career with the Mercedes move, Hamilton only wants money).

Rosberg was not only better than Ricciardo in qualifying(where WDC are won) but also in the rain(where the Australian will be embarassed in the same car against Hamilton).

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that. Hamilton certainly arrived with a BANG, as you put it, but there again so did Max. I'd say there was a pretty similar level of excitement when he came aboard.

Agree in general about pundits not always getting it right, but to be fair pretty much everyone questioned the Mercedes move at the time, especially since McLaren were a definite top team then. They may well have been right on the money part: we'll never know for sure.

How do you conclude Rosberg was better than Ricciardo in qualifying or the rain? How do we compare?

How we decide that Bottas wasn't that good before he joined Mercedes?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I have never rated Ricciardo that highly and I think that Max would not outqualify Sainz Jr. the way he is doing against Ricciardo. What does that tell you?
Hamilton will obliterate Ricciardo if they were teammate. He is failing to outpace his less experienced teammate and you expect him to do better than Bottas just because he did beat Vettel in 2014?

I don't rate Bottas highly at all. He struggled to beat a past-his-prime Massa. Ricciardo would undeniably do a better job against Hamilton than Bottas. Prior to this year, most people also rated Ricciardo above Rosberg.

"His less experienced teammate" happens to be the biggest talent Formula 1 has seen in decades. The fact that Verstappen is beating Ricciardo so convincingly in qualifying is not a knock on Ricciardo. It's a testament to Verstappen's enormous talent.


Let's see him against Hamilton before passing this final judgement.
He didn't arrive in F1 with a BANG like Hamilton, that's for sure. So for the moment the biggest talent in decades tag is more suited to Hamilton.
As for rating Ricciardo over Rosberg, we have already seen how clueless some pundits are when they rate people or make predictions(Example: Hamilton has killed his career with the Mercedes move, Hamilton only wants money).

Rosberg was not only better than Ricciardo in qualifying(where WDC are won) but also in the rain(where the Australian will be embarassed in the same car against Hamilton).

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that. Hamilton certainly arrived with a BANG, as you put it, but there again so did Max. I'd say there was a pretty similar level of excitement when he came aboard.

Agree in general about pundits not always getting it right, but to be fair pretty much everyone questioned the Mercedes move at the time, especially since McLaren were a definite top team then. They may well have been right on the money part: we'll never know for sure.

How do you conclude Rosberg was better than Ricciardo in qualifying or the rain? How do we compare?

How we decide that Bottas wasn't that good before he joined Mercedes?

Not entirely sure that answers my question? :?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Randine wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
I'd like to see Max in a competitive car - ie. competitive over the whole season with Hamilton. Same goes for Ricciardo, Alonso and Vettel. Other drivers such as Hulkenberg or Sainz might also be competitive in a competitive car.

The sooner any of those things happen, the better for F1.

This year was hyped as a great battle between Hamilton and Vettel - and that lasted 2/3 of the season. Bottas hasn't looked like a threat to Hamilton, but has won races. The rest of 2017, the title race is dead.


Sainz vs Hulk next year will be very interesting.
What if Hulk smashes Sainz? Does that then put Hulk in the top driver conversation?
Perez vs Hulk was close but Perez liked the old rubber far more and is only just in front of Ocon.

I personally think Vettel would be beaten by Alonso, Dan, Ham and possibly Max over a season in the same car.
The only other driver on the grid I possibly rate up with these guys is Hulk.
Sainz and Ocon do also look the goods, however is too hard and to soon to tell.

If the Hulk beats Sainz then it just means that Sainz was overrated.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:52 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen at 20 is better than Hamilton at 20 - Hamilton after 3 seasons in F1 was better than Verstappen is after 3 seasons in F1.

was he, though. His 2008 was pretty scrappy, so even though he won it wasn't really a stellar year. Most seem to be in agreement that it was (one of) Hamilton's wprst seasons ever (as far as driving prowess goes). 2009 only really kicked off in the second half, where he did do a stellar job, but Max hasn't exactly driven poorly this year, either.

Not trying to knock either of them, but I wouldn't be able to state with any certainty which one was definitely better in their third season


TBF I've defended Max to the hilt but I would say Max's 2016 was also a bit scrappy? Probably as scrappy as Lewis' 08. I would agree Hamilton's 08 was one of his poorer seasons but surely the fact that the worst year out of his first 3 seasons he was still able to win a WDC without a noticeable car advantage shows just how good 07 and 09 were for him. Hamilton had some exceptional drives in 09 early seasons as well. I still contend that Bahrain was one of his best yet. He drove what at that time was a back marking car to 4th. That wouldn't be possible now because the gaps between the cars are massive compared to 09 but still a great drive.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:27 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I don't rate Bottas highly at all. He struggled to beat a past-his-prime Massa. Ricciardo would undeniably do a better job against Hamilton than Bottas. Prior to this year, most people also rated Ricciardo above Rosberg.

"His less experienced teammate" happens to be the biggest talent Formula 1 has seen in decades. The fact that Verstappen is beating Ricciardo so convincingly in qualifying is not a knock on Ricciardo. It's a testament to Verstappen's enormous talent.


Let's see him against Hamilton before passing this final judgement.
He didn't arrive in F1 with a BANG like Hamilton, that's for sure. So for the moment the biggest talent in decades tag is more suited to Hamilton.
As for rating Ricciardo over Rosberg, we have already seen how clueless some pundits are when they rate people or make predictions(Example: Hamilton has killed his career with the Mercedes move, Hamilton only wants money).

Rosberg was not only better than Ricciardo in qualifying(where WDC are won) but also in the rain(where the Australian will be embarassed in the same car against Hamilton).

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that. Hamilton certainly arrived with a BANG, as you put it, but there again so did Max. I'd say there was a pretty similar level of excitement when he came aboard.

Agree in general about pundits not always getting it right, but to be fair pretty much everyone questioned the Mercedes move at the time, especially since McLaren were a definite top team then. They may well have been right on the money part: we'll never know for sure.

How do you conclude Rosberg was better than Ricciardo in qualifying or the rain? How do we compare?

How we decide that Bottas wasn't that good before he joined Mercedes?

Not entirely sure that answers my question? :?

Because you made that statement, what evidence did you have?

Then you question how someone knows that Rosberg is better than Ricciardo in qualifying and the rain?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Randine wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
I'd like to see Max in a competitive car - ie. competitive over the whole season with Hamilton. Same goes for Ricciardo, Alonso and Vettel. Other drivers such as Hulkenberg or Sainz might also be competitive in a competitive car.

The sooner any of those things happen, the better for F1.

This year was hyped as a great battle between Hamilton and Vettel - and that lasted 2/3 of the season. Bottas hasn't looked like a threat to Hamilton, but has won races. The rest of 2017, the title race is dead.


Sainz vs Hulk next year will be very interesting.
What if Hulk smashes Sainz? Does that then put Hulk in the top driver conversation?
Perez vs Hulk was close but Perez liked the old rubber far more and is only just in front of Ocon.

I personally think Vettel would be beaten by Alonso, Dan, Ham and possibly Max over a season in the same car.
The only other driver on the grid I possibly rate up with these guys is Hulk.
Sainz and Ocon do also look the goods, however is too hard and to soon to tell.

Hulk has had a lot of time in F1 and he has never delivered a very impressive season. I'd say that 2014 was probably his best all around season but even that year, it was Perez who got the teams 2 podium finishes. He's never put together a great race weekend where he really made the difference and got that car to a place it had no business being. I think the pole in Brazil back during his rookie year is still in many ways the highlight of his career. Crashing when he had a golden opportunity to win or get a podium at the very least in Brazil 2012 kind of sums up his career. I don't think he's far away from the best in terms of talent and speed but he lacks consistency and he struggles to stay out of trouble on Sundays.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Let's see him against Hamilton before passing this final judgement.
He didn't arrive in F1 with a BANG like Hamilton, that's for sure. So for the moment the biggest talent in decades tag is more suited to Hamilton.
As for rating Ricciardo over Rosberg, we have already seen how clueless some pundits are when they rate people or make predictions(Example: Hamilton has killed his career with the Mercedes move, Hamilton only wants money).

Rosberg was not only better than Ricciardo in qualifying(where WDC are won) but also in the rain(where the Australian will be embarassed in the same car against Hamilton).

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that. Hamilton certainly arrived with a BANG, as you put it, but there again so did Max. I'd say there was a pretty similar level of excitement when he came aboard.

Agree in general about pundits not always getting it right, but to be fair pretty much everyone questioned the Mercedes move at the time, especially since McLaren were a definite top team then. They may well have been right on the money part: we'll never know for sure.

How do you conclude Rosberg was better than Ricciardo in qualifying or the rain? How do we compare?

How we decide that Bottas wasn't that good before he joined Mercedes?

Not entirely sure that answers my question? :?

Because you made that statement, what evidence did you have?

Then you question how someone knows that Rosberg is better than Ricciardo in qualifying and the rain?

Which statement? I didn't even mention Bottas in the post you replied to. You've confused me!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Verstappen at 20 is better than Hamilton at 20 - Hamilton after 3 seasons in F1 was better than Verstappen is after 3 seasons in F1.

was he, though. His 2008 was pretty scrappy, so even though he won it wasn't really a stellar year. Most seem to be in agreement that it was (one of) Hamilton's wprst seasons ever (as far as driving prowess goes). 2009 only really kicked off in the second half, where he did do a stellar job, but Max hasn't exactly driven poorly this year, either.

Not trying to knock either of them, but I wouldn't be able to state with any certainty which one was definitely better in their third season


TBF I've defended Max to the hilt but I would say Max's 2016 was also a bit scrappy? Probably as scrappy as Lewis' 08. I would agree Hamilton's 08 was one of his poorer seasons but surely the fact that the worst year out of his first 3 seasons he was still able to win a WDC without a noticeable car advantage shows just how good 07 and 09 were for him. Hamilton had some exceptional drives in 09 early seasons as well. I still contend that Bahrain was one of his best yet. He drove what at that time was a back marking car to 4th. That wouldn't be possible now because the gaps between the cars are massive compared to 09 but still a great drive.

I don't disagree he drove well, but I think Max is also driving very well this year. Not claiming either is better as I wouldn't know how to tell, is the point I'm making. Neither appears to have (had) a poor third year


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that. Hamilton certainly arrived with a BANG, as you put it, but there again so did Max. I'd say there was a pretty similar level of excitement when he came aboard.

Agree in general about pundits not always getting it right, but to be fair pretty much everyone questioned the Mercedes move at the time, especially since McLaren were a definite top team then. They may well have been right on the money part: we'll never know for sure.

How do you conclude Rosberg was better than Ricciardo in qualifying or the rain? How do we compare?

How we decide that Bottas wasn't that good before he joined Mercedes?

Not entirely sure that answers my question? :?

Because you made that statement, what evidence did you have?

Then you question how someone knows that Rosberg is better than Ricciardo in qualifying and the rain?

Which statement? I didn't even mention Bottas in the post you replied to. You've confused me!

In this very thread you said you never rated Bottas so I wondered how do we compare that he's never been that good like you ask the poster that said that Rosberg was better than Ricciardo in qualifying and the wet, I mean how did you compare because before the season started he never had been beat by a teammate?

I originally let it go because it was just your opinion that you are entitled to, but then when someone gives his opinion you're basically saying that it's not possible to determine that, so I'm thinking alright so how do you determine what you said?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:40 pm 
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So much for this thread getting back on topic.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:52 am 
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I'd guess Lewis and Valterie are comfortable with the aero package at the moment - but as others have said - this isn't about the topic and surely you can address this discussion in another thread? (Mods?)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:03 am 
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Yeah, this is getting very off topic.

If you want to continue to discuss the situation surrounding the aero updates on the Mercedes, take it to PMs or a dedicated thread for it.


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