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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:50 pm 
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Dash33 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Not yet as good all round as Alonso but still has a good 3/4 seasons of improvement in him.


As an Alonso fan, I'd put money on him to clean Alonso's clocks in equal machinery any day.


Not right now. I'm sure the cross over will come soon though.


Honestly, I think right now.


Very hard to judge Alonso now. I think he was certainly better than Max is now back in 2014. Any evidence he has regressed ?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Not yet as good all round as Alonso but still has a good 3/4 seasons of improvement in him.


As an Alonso fan, I'd put money on him to clean Alonso's clocks in equal machinery any day.


would love to see him go against alonso or vettel. two of the biggest whingers in f1 full of entitlement. a couple more seasons and with all things equal i think he would beat the pair of them. it would be hilarious to see alonso and vettel getting beat regularly. unfortunately it wont happen as neither would go up against him i dont think.

i also dont think he could beat hamilton yet but again in a couple of seasons it would be a close battle

I'd like to see him against any of the Top 3 in the same machinery. I reckon they'd all be in for a rude awakening. I don't know if he'd beat them over a season though, the full Verstappen package is still coming together. Soon enough he'll have all the tools, it's coming fast

I think for us as F1 fans we should be praying that there are a few cars fighting it out at the front and the likes of Ricciardo, Ocon, Vandoorne, LeClerc or whoever is up to the challenge. The Schumacher years sucked

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
In terms of raw ability I rate him and Lewis as the best but he lacks the seasoning that Lewis has (obviously he's 12 years younger). In terms of being a complete package, I think there are still 2-3 guys who are currently better but I think that he would beat almost everyone in terms of raw pace. It would be interesting to see him teamed with Hamilton just to see how that would go. It's important to note that, due to his age, Max has definitely improved in F1 much more than most drivers do. He was beaten in qualifying in 2015 and 2016 at the hands of Sainz and Ricciardo. This year he has shown single lap pace that is outright scary. Daniel is a known fast driver and Max has really had him covered for most of the year.

He seems to have Hamilton's speed and aggression (and wet weather driving ability), Alonso's brilliant starts and restarts and Vettel's ability to manage the race from the lead. Only thing he lacks (and it's an important one) is consistency. He needs to properly calibrate his risk vs. reward circuits. Once that has been achieved, he will likely become the best in F1. But he isn't that now.


Spot on, I'd say. He's now shored up his qualifying weaknesses, has shown blistering race pace and an ability to get work done from his starts. He's radical in his approach to race craft and that has yielded some fantastic displays of skill and originality and also some highly dubious and questionable driving. In terms of his ceiling, it might be the highest on the grid but he cannot (should not) yet be crowned.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:40 pm 
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I'd say that while Verstappen has been in the races, as impressive as Vettel looked in the first half of the season while I was commending his drives and aggression that Verstappen looked even more impressive but because he wasn't in direct competition for the lead of the WDC I sort of accidentally marginalised it. Still, based on the events of the year Verstappen needs another much cleaner (and less unlucky) season of performances to make a more solid claim. Hamilton has also been excellent this year.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Vettel has been chasing the Championship all year even when ahead in the standings because of the positions of Mercedes and Ferrari and their recent history. Vettel has been very much the hunter and Hamilton the hunted and so in their different ways they've shown plenty of top racing this year but Vettel has been a little more aggressive and a little more risky, perhaps leading to higher chances of brilliance and also errors (but more often than not it has been brilliance). Mercedes are protecting their "lead" and their dominance and Hamilton has been sensible while retaining his typically terrific race pace and he's been a master of qualifying for much of the year.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Tough to say for sure. I think he's looked the best at Red Bull this year that is for sure.
He may well be able to beat Lewis, Fernando and Seb. Those guys have already proved themselves under the pressure of a tight WDC fight though. When Max has that opportunity I'll feel more confident in bestowing such accolades on him.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:18 pm 
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Verstappen33 wrote:
mas wrote:
Fastest driver ? Sure he can stake a good claim for that. Best driver ? No way and his current points total against his teammate shows that. His racecraft and overtaking needs to make a quantum jump before he can be considered the best. Frankly his teammate who is currently less than a tenth slower in qualifying can make a far better claim to being the 'best' driver.



Do you read what you post? Total points show absolutely nothing here. I am sure you understand why.
Racecraft and overtaking need to make a quantum jump? Really? I am sorry but I am all for "everyone is entitled to their opinion" but if you are this shortsighted than I can only expect that you carry some hatred against certain drivers.

Total points show that Ricciardo has had less accidents meaning he has finished more races intact. Shortsighted ? Hatred ? I was being publicly kind, I actually think Max is an idiotic overtaker and a very dangerous blocker, much worse than Maldonado. His idea of overtaking is usually to try and physically barge other drivers out of the way, his idea of defending is to brake test other drivers on the apex of bends. He idiotically took out his teammate out this year, what he did at Monaco to Grosjean in a previous year was unfathomable.

Frankly if he wasn't such a fast driver with occasionally outstanding performances in the dry and especially the wet I would be calling for his ban from the sport ! The guy is a danger some times and he needs to control it otherwise someone will get seriously hurt one day.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:38 pm 
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mas wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
mas wrote:
Fastest driver ? Sure he can stake a good claim for that. Best driver ? No way and his current points total against his teammate shows that. His racecraft and overtaking needs to make a quantum jump before he can be considered the best. Frankly his teammate who is currently less than a tenth slower in qualifying can make a far better claim to being the 'best' driver.



Do you read what you post? Total points show absolutely nothing here. I am sure you understand why.
Racecraft and overtaking need to make a quantum jump? Really? I am sorry but I am all for "everyone is entitled to their opinion" but if you are this shortsighted than I can only expect that you carry some hatred against certain drivers.

Total points show that Ricciardo has had less accidents meaning he has finished more races intact. Shortsighted ? Hatred ? I was being publicly kind, I actually think Max is an idiotic overtaker and a very dangerous blocker, much worse than Maldonado. His idea of overtaking is usually to try and physically barge other drivers out of the way, his idea of defending is to brake test other drivers on the apex of bends. He idiotically took out his teammate out this year, what he did at Monaco to Grosjean in a previous year was unfathomable.

Frankly if he wasn't such a fast driver with occasionally outstanding performances in the dry and especially the wet I would be calling for his ban from the sport ! The guy is a danger some times and he needs to control it otherwise someone will get seriously hurt one day.


I think that's a wild exaggeration. How often has he had an issue with overtaking this season? Hungary where he made a mistake on the first lap, Monza where Massa was at least mostly to blame... Anything else?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:42 pm 
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First he needs to beat Daniel in a season, next season he has to do it, otherwise Daniel must be a mega god or something according to some on here, if beats Max 3-0 in seasons together.

The kid has got the potential, and he has the speed, but over the course of the season, and in a title battle, and in race battles, he still has that all to prove to be considered anywhere near the best driver, he has many years to show he is one of the best to come.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Jomox wrote:
First he needs to beat Daniel in a season, next season he has to do it, otherwise Daniel must be a mega god or something according to some on here, if beats Max 3-0 in seasons together.

The kid has got the potential, and he has the speed, but over the course of the season, and in a title battle, and in race battles, he still has that all to prove to be considered anywhere near the best driver, he has many years to show he is one of the best to come.


By that logic Kvyat is 1-0 up to Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Vettel has been chasing the Championship all year even when ahead in the standings because of the positions of Mercedes and Ferrari and their recent history. Vettel has been very much the hunter and Hamilton the hunted and so in their different ways they've shown plenty of top racing this year but Vettel has been a little more aggressive and a little more risky, perhaps leading to higher chances of brilliance and also errors (but more often than not it has been brilliance). Mercedes are protecting their "lead" and their dominance and Hamilton has been sensible while retaining his typically terrific race pace and he's been a master of qualifying for much of the year.

Vettel was in the lead most of the year. Hamilton has been the one playing catch-up. I'd say the only on track pass one has had over the other during a race was the overtake Hamilton made on Vettel in Barcelona. I'd put them about even in the heroics department with the main difference on the year being Vettel's crash in Singapore and mechanical issues in Malaysia. Those two races make up almost the entirety of the current points deficit.

As for Max, what I would say for certain is that he possesses certain attributes that you see in the very best drivers. Whether he has them to the same level as the likes of Hamilton and Alonso is not something I would just assume. We'll get the chance to find out in 2019 I think. Next year will probably be Hamilton vs. Vettel for the championship again but 2019 I think will be a new narrative. Probably Dan and/or Max will team up with Seb and/or Lewis that year. That's when the circle will be complete lol.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Not yet as good all round as Alonso but still has a good 3/4 seasons of improvement in him.


As an Alonso fan, I'd put money on him to clean Alonso's clocks in equal machinery any day.


Not right now. I'm sure the cross over will come soon though.


Honestly, I think right now.


Very hard to judge Alonso now. I think he was certainly better than Max is now back in 2014. Any evidence he has regressed ?


With 3/4th of the season gone, he's trailing a rookie who had a terrible start to the season. That tells you all you need to know.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:38 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Hamilton and Verstappen are the last two drivers to come into the sport and you go "wow, this guy is very very good". The time before that for me was Schumacher.

The others like Alonso and Vettel probably didn't get a complete chance to showcase their full ability and even when they got into a top car earlier in their careers it wasn't so evident. (Alonso vs Trulli 2003, Vettel vs Webber 2009)

Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.

Max has 55+ races under his belt now. Michael Schumacher had just won his 2nd WDC at that point in his career. Not that that has much relevance, but its an interesting little fact.

Hamiltons rookie year, Verstappens 2016 and Schumachers 1992 are my three most impressive years from new drivers and the only time I've seen drivers that I knew were going to win championships - 100% and as I was watching thought to myself "how can this guy be so quick/good so early"


So at Monza '08 you didn't look at Vettel and go wow or see he would be a future champion? Interesting!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:51 pm 
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The margins between all of the top guys are so thin it's impossible to state with any certainty who might be the absolute best. And what "best" means will vary from fan to fan anyway.

That being said, I think being in a more competitive car would settle Max down quite a bit. IMO he's trying too hard to get those "putting the car ahead of where it should be" types of results. It's a good instinct to have and I think he's tempered it a bit this season but I think he's still pushing just that slightest bit to much at times.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:01 pm 
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mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
No way. He's VERY talented, but as good as he is, Hamilton was even better at his age and Hamilton today is an improved version of himself then.

Hamilton wasn't even in F1 on his 20th birthday. At that age, he just completed his first season in Formula 3 where he finished 5th in the standings.

Verstappen is two steps ahead of Vettel and Hamilton in the development curve. He has the highest ceiling of any driver I've ever seen.

Quote:
Alonso is also better than Verstappen, as is Vettel and Kimi. He's right there though and given he will still get better he will be the best on the grid one day, but before that becomes the case I think a few of the guys I mentioned have to retire. I would love to see him paired with any one of them and see how he does but I'd guess it would be close for a while before he ends up besting the other guy.

I sincerely hope that you are having a laugh.


This is Verstappen 3rd F1 season despite him being 20 years old.
Verstappen had the luxury to start his F1 career when he was 17 unlike Hamilton who had to win all the trophies in lower series.
Speed doesn't depend on age, but experience and Verstappen is doing his 3rd(not 1st) year.


Look, the statement was "Hamilton was even better at this age" but that's plainly false. "At this age", just turned 20, Hamilton had just been beaten by drivers like Premat, Lapierre or Green.

But if you want to compare F3: Verstappen, having just turned 17, was running higher in F3 (in his rookie F3 AND single seater season) than Hamilton did.

So let's just forget about that statement, OK? Hamilton at this age was not as good as Verstappen.

Now that doesn't mean Verstappen will become to be the best ever, or better than Hamilton, or whatever. Development curves are not exactly the same for each driver. But that above statement, rubbish.

It's far from rubbish actually. Max had very limited pre-F1 experience BUT coming in at 17 did wonders for him because the younger you can begin practicing something and honing your skills, the better you become in a shorter time period. Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did. Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I'll stick with my assessment of them.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:02 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

As an Alonso fan, I'd put money on him to clean Alonso's clocks in equal machinery any day.


Not right now. I'm sure the cross over will come soon though.


Honestly, I think right now.


Very hard to judge Alonso now. I think he was certainly better than Max is now back in 2014. Any evidence he has regressed ?


With 3/4th of the season gone, he's trailing a rookie who had a terrible start to the season. That tells you all you need to know.


Yeah it tells us Honda's reliability was hilarious when Alonso was comfortably ahead and running in the points at a host of races early in the season when Stoff was fighting Saubers. He lost to Marques too, was he past it then?.

Are you sure you're a fan, you don't seem to have been paying much attention but go about in every other thread telling us how bad he's driving?.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:06 pm 
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On topic, I don't think he's there yet but it wouldn't surprise me if he was next year or the year after. So much talent and no real sign of weakness. I don't blame him for any contact this year apart from Hungary and at a push Monza but I think that was just a bit impatient and over reliant on Massa being generous.

Pace wise he's there. Starts he's been the best this year. Wet weather he's there. Everything really.

Just maybe a bit impatient still but considering his bad luck this year, his age and desperation for wins all the top guys have I can forgive it easily and there's no reason for me to think he wont approach things a little different with a title in view.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:11 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
No way. He's VERY talented, but as good as he is, Hamilton was even better at his age and Hamilton today is an improved version of himself then.

Hamilton wasn't even in F1 on his 20th birthday. At that age, he just completed his first season in Formula 3 where he finished 5th in the standings.

Verstappen is two steps ahead of Vettel and Hamilton in the development curve. He has the highest ceiling of any driver I've ever seen.

Quote:
Alonso is also better than Verstappen, as is Vettel and Kimi. He's right there though and given he will still get better he will be the best on the grid one day, but before that becomes the case I think a few of the guys I mentioned have to retire. I would love to see him paired with any one of them and see how he does but I'd guess it would be close for a while before he ends up besting the other guy.

I sincerely hope that you are having a laugh.

Hamilton was in a rookie team though, not the best.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:16 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I agree, I have to see more from him before I can rate him ahead of Hamilton/Vettel and then probably more still before I can rate him ahead of Alonso. I have a feeling that I will though when all is said and done.

I've said it before but those Red Bull boys could well be the best 2 drivers on the grid right now IMO.

I doubt that Ricciardo is better than Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:31 pm 
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mds wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
No way. He's VERY talented, but as good as he is, Hamilton was even better at his age and Hamilton today is an improved version of himself then.

Hamilton wasn't even in F1 on his 20th birthday. At that age, he just completed his first season in Formula 3 where he finished 5th in the standings.

Verstappen is two steps ahead of Vettel and Hamilton in the development curve. He has the highest ceiling of any driver I've ever seen.

Quote:
Alonso is also better than Verstappen, as is Vettel and Kimi. He's right there though and given he will still get better he will be the best on the grid one day, but before that becomes the case I think a few of the guys I mentioned have to retire. I would love to see him paired with any one of them and see how he does but I'd guess it would be close for a while before he ends up besting the other guy.

I sincerely hope that you are having a laugh.


This is Verstappen 3rd F1 season despite him being 20 years old.
Verstappen had the luxury to start his F1 career when he was 17 unlike Hamilton who had to win all the trophies in lower series.
Speed doesn't depend on age, but experience and Verstappen is doing his 3rd(not 1st) year.


Look, the statement was "Hamilton was even better at this age" but that's plainly false. "At this age", just turned 20, Hamilton had just been beaten by drivers like Premat, Lapierre or Green.

But if you want to compare F3: Verstappen, having just turned 17, was running higher in F3 (in his rookie F3 AND single seater season) than Hamilton did.

So let's just forget about that statement, OK? Hamilton at this age was not as good as Verstappen.

Now that doesn't mean Verstappen will become to be the best ever, or better than Hamilton, or whatever. Development curves are not exactly the same for each driver. But that above statement, rubbish.

When Hamilton competed in F3 it was 2 rungs down from F1, when Verstappen competed in F3 it was 3 rungs down from F1, the driver that won the title, Ocon then went into GP3.

Hamilton competed in the F3 Euroseries which later got disbanded and replaced by GP3, F3 then later got rehashed but at a lower level to what it was originally.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:32 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
No way. He's VERY talented, but as good as he is, Hamilton was even better at his age and Hamilton today is an improved version of himself then.

Hamilton wasn't even in F1 on his 20th birthday. At that age, he just completed his first season in Formula 3 where he finished 5th in the standings.

Verstappen is two steps ahead of Vettel and Hamilton in the development curve. He has the highest ceiling of any driver I've ever seen.

Quote:
Alonso is also better than Verstappen, as is Vettel and Kimi. He's right there though and given he will still get better he will be the best on the grid one day, but before that becomes the case I think a few of the guys I mentioned have to retire. I would love to see him paired with any one of them and see how he does but I'd guess it would be close for a while before he ends up besting the other guy.

I sincerely hope that you are having a laugh.

Not at all. I feel Kimi would best Verstappen in identical machinery. He has tons more experience and his feedback has proven instrumental to his teammates over his career. Raw speed alone means diddly squat and Max has in the past had to resort to less than clean driving to keep faster drivers behind and with Kimi in particular it was only Kimi's quick thinking & reaction that kept them from colliding. Say what you will but any driver who is better would only need to rely on their superior driving ability to beat another rather than alternative tactics.

Max's history of questionably aggressive driving is precisely why other drivers tend to shy away from wheel to wheel tussles with him because it just might result in a DNF. WHEN the day comes he costs himself majorly due to such antics, he just may realize such things are completely unnecessary, but he'll need to ask his arrogance to get out of the way.

Just sayin.

And I'm not singling him out either because we've all been his age and we've all lacked a bit of humility to some degree, so he's not different in that regard. Hell, even Lewis, though immediately super quick put moves on Alonso and both Ferrari drivers similar to how Max has done and I'd venture to say even harsher/worse, but he came to realize those things were not necessary.

About the BIB, really?

I'll throw out just one name that leaves enough room for at least 2 of Max's ceilings… Senna.
And FWIW, I don't rate Senna as the best on my list if that says anything. One thing we need to keep in perspective is the costs involved in running in F1 and how it has changed the driver market from every team fielding the absolute best drivers available to running the best drivers who bring truckloads of cash that help them continue on in the sport. Only the top 4-5 teams have the absolute best drivers. Everyone else falls into the latter category.

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ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:33 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Hamilton and Verstappen are the last two drivers to come into the sport and you go "wow, this guy is very very good". The time before that for me was Schumacher.

The others like Alonso and Vettel probably didn't get a complete chance to showcase their full ability and even when they got into a top car earlier in their careers it wasn't so evident. (Alonso vs Trulli 2003, Vettel vs Webber 2009)

Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.

Max has 55+ races under his belt now. Michael Schumacher had just won his 2nd WDC at that point in his career. Not that that has much relevance, but its an interesting little fact.

Hamiltons rookie year, Verstappens 2016 and Schumachers 1992 are my three most impressive years from new drivers and the only time I've seen drivers that I knew were going to win championships - 100% and as I was watching thought to myself "how can this guy be so quick/good so early"

Hamilton was 22.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.
I think you need to factor in that Hamilton had a title-challenging car in his first year, which Max has not. Not to take anything away from Hamilton, as it was an impressive performance, but I don't really see much to suggest that Verstappen wouldn't have been just as competitive had he been in the same fortunate position. Verstappen is looking mighty strong this year and I'm reasonably confident he would be challenging for the title in either a Merc or a Ferrari.

As to who is better at the same stage, I really don't know. I think the differences aren't that big tbh. The word "impressive" still comes to mind

Verstappen had a rookie as a teammate whilst Hamilton had Alonso.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.
I think you need to factor in that Hamilton had a title-challenging car in his first year, which Max has not. Not to take anything away from Hamilton, as it was an impressive performance, but I don't really see much to suggest that Verstappen wouldn't have been just as competitive had he been in the same fortunate position. Verstappen is looking mighty strong this year and I'm reasonably confident he would be challenging for the title in either a Merc or a Ferrari.

As to who is better at the same stage, I really don't know. I think the differences aren't that big tbh. The word "impressive" still comes to mind

Verstappen had a rookie as a teammate whilst Hamilton had Alonso.

I was responding to the comment about Max's 3rd year vs Hamilton's 1st.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.
I think you need to factor in that Hamilton had a title-challenging car in his first year, which Max has not. Not to take anything away from Hamilton, as it was an impressive performance, but I don't really see much to suggest that Verstappen wouldn't have been just as competitive had he been in the same fortunate position. Verstappen is looking mighty strong this year and I'm reasonably confident he would be challenging for the title in either a Merc or a Ferrari.

As to who is better at the same stage, I really don't know. I think the differences aren't that big tbh. The word "impressive" still comes to mind

Verstappen had a rookie as a teammate whilst Hamilton had Alonso.


Better car vs. Better team mate.

Better car gives you a free pass from mixing in the pack which can lead to a lot of ruined races strategy wise and incidents that your lack of experience might expose. But it gives you more pressure as you're straight in a title fight and the limelight stresses that brings with it.


Better team mate gives you instant status if you can hang with him and all the credit that brings. It can also bring a butt kicking and a fast ticket to obscurity.


There's pluses and minuses with both situations I think.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.
I think you need to factor in that Hamilton had a title-challenging car in his first year, which Max has not. Not to take anything away from Hamilton, as it was an impressive performance, but I don't really see much to suggest that Verstappen wouldn't have been just as competitive had he been in the same fortunate position. Verstappen is looking mighty strong this year and I'm reasonably confident he would be challenging for the title in either a Merc or a Ferrari.

As to who is better at the same stage, I really don't know. I think the differences aren't that big tbh. The word "impressive" still comes to mind

Verstappen had a rookie as a teammate whilst Hamilton had Alonso.

I was responding to the comment about Max's 3rd year vs Hamilton's 1st.

Fair enough that makes more sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.
I think you need to factor in that Hamilton had a title-challenging car in his first year, which Max has not. Not to take anything away from Hamilton, as it was an impressive performance, but I don't really see much to suggest that Verstappen wouldn't have been just as competitive had he been in the same fortunate position. Verstappen is looking mighty strong this year and I'm reasonably confident he would be challenging for the title in either a Merc or a Ferrari.

As to who is better at the same stage, I really don't know. I think the differences aren't that big tbh. The word "impressive" still comes to mind

Verstappen had a rookie as a teammate whilst Hamilton had Alonso.


Better car vs. Better team mate.

Better car gives you a free pass from mixing in the pack which can lead to a lot of ruined races strategy wise and incidents that your lack of experience might expose. But it gives you more pressure as you're straight in a title fight and the limelight stresses that brings with it.


Better team mate gives you instant status if you can hang with him and all the credit that brings. It can also bring a butt kicking and a fast ticket to obscurity.


There's pluses and minuses with both situations I think.

Yeah I actually misread the post so what I actually said wasn't relevant anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.
I think you need to factor in that Hamilton had a title-challenging car in his first year, which Max has not. Not to take anything away from Hamilton, as it was an impressive performance, but I don't really see much to suggest that Verstappen wouldn't have been just as competitive had he been in the same fortunate position. Verstappen is looking mighty strong this year and I'm reasonably confident he would be challenging for the title in either a Merc or a Ferrari.

As to who is better at the same stage, I really don't know. I think the differences aren't that big tbh. The word "impressive" still comes to mind

Verstappen had a rookie as a teammate whilst Hamilton had Alonso.


Better car vs. Better team mate.

Better car gives you a free pass from mixing in the pack which can lead to a lot of ruined races strategy wise and incidents that your lack of experience might expose. But it gives you more pressure as you're straight in a title fight and the limelight stresses that brings with it.

Better team mate gives you instant status if you can hang with him and all the credit that brings. It can also bring a butt kicking and a fast ticket to obscurity.


There's pluses and minuses with both situations I think.

I'd choose better car every time. It gives you a lot of get out of jail free cards and often fools people into believing you are doing better than you are. In 2015, for example, people were slating Kimi for his qualifying performances, but he was actually doing better relative to Vettel than Rosberg was to Hamilton. But when Rosberg had a qualifying howler, he was still 2nd on the grid and the podium, whereas Kimi was having to fight with others. And Bottas has been similar, in that now the Mercedes has lost his crushing advantage he's actually having to fight for podiums for a change. And so he's being slated because of the end result.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:58 pm 
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The answer to this we might find out sooner than we think with rumours that both Mercedes and Ferrari are chasing after Verstappen for 2019.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
I agree, I have to see more from him before I can rate him ahead of Hamilton/Vettel and then probably more still before I can rate him ahead of Alonso. I have a feeling that I will though when all is said and done.

I've said it before but those Red Bull boys could well be the best 2 drivers on the grid right now IMO.

I doubt that Ricciardo is better than Hamilton.

Fair enough, I think he might be.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:58 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:

Not at all. I feel Kimi would best Verstappen in identical machinery. He has tons more experience and his feedback has proven instrumental to his teammates over his career. Raw speed alone means diddly squat and Max has in the past had to resort to less than clean driving to keep faster drivers behind
.


Surely that experience would just make Verstappen quicker too?

That is an alternative opinion. I can understand the people in here not liking Max's tactics but that doesn't change how quick he is. There is no substitute for raw speed and Kimi isn't that fast anymore. Nor consistent and now also very prone to incidents and crashes himself since rejoining Ferrari.

Max has done some questionable things to keep cars behind but the reality is, those cars probably would have already been in front of Kimi from qualifying higher or Kimi putting up little to no defence when being overtaken.

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Last edited by lamo on Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:59 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.
I think you need to factor in that Hamilton had a title-challenging car in his first year, which Max has not. Not to take anything away from Hamilton, as it was an impressive performance, but I don't really see much to suggest that Verstappen wouldn't have been just as competitive had he been in the same fortunate position. Verstappen is looking mighty strong this year and I'm reasonably confident he would be challenging for the title in either a Merc or a Ferrari.

As to who is better at the same stage, I really don't know. I think the differences aren't that big tbh. The word "impressive" still comes to mind

Verstappen had a rookie as a teammate whilst Hamilton had Alonso.


Better car vs. Better team mate.

Better car gives you a free pass from mixing in the pack which can lead to a lot of ruined races strategy wise and incidents that your lack of experience might expose. But it gives you more pressure as you're straight in a title fight and the limelight stresses that brings with it.

Better team mate gives you instant status if you can hang with him and all the credit that brings. It can also bring a butt kicking and a fast ticket to obscurity.


There's pluses and minuses with both situations I think.

I'd choose better car every time. It gives you a lot of get out of jail free cards and often fools people into believing you are doing better than you are. In 2015, for example, people were slating Kimi for his qualifying performances, but he was actually doing better relative to Vettel than Rosberg was to Hamilton. But when Rosberg had a qualifying howler, he was still 2nd on the grid and the podium, whereas Kimi was having to fight with others. And Bottas has been similar, in that now the Mercedes has lost his crushing advantage he's actually having to fight for podiums for a change. And so he's being slated because of the end result.


I'm greedy, I'd take the better car simply because it's better and I can win!, but yeah I agree it can change perception.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Hamilton in his rookie year (aged 23) is still superior to Verstappen in his 3rd year (aged 20) in my opinion. But then it becomes a debate of F1 experience vs age/ lower formula experience. I would put them at similar "experience rating" at those two times.
I think you need to factor in that Hamilton had a title-challenging car in his first year, which Max has not. Not to take anything away from Hamilton, as it was an impressive performance, but I don't really see much to suggest that Verstappen wouldn't have been just as competitive had he been in the same fortunate position. Verstappen is looking mighty strong this year and I'm reasonably confident he would be challenging for the title in either a Merc or a Ferrari.

As to who is better at the same stage, I really don't know. I think the differences aren't that big tbh. The word "impressive" still comes to mind

Verstappen had a rookie as a teammate whilst Hamilton had Alonso.


Better car vs. Better team mate.

Better car gives you a free pass from mixing in the pack which can lead to a lot of ruined races strategy wise and incidents that your lack of experience might expose. But it gives you more pressure as you're straight in a title fight and the limelight stresses that brings with it.

Better team mate gives you instant status if you can hang with him and all the credit that brings. It can also bring a butt kicking and a fast ticket to obscurity.


There's pluses and minuses with both situations I think.

I'd choose better car every time. It gives you a lot of get out of jail free cards and often fools people into believing you are doing better than you are. In 2015, for example, people were slating Kimi for his qualifying performances, but he was actually doing better relative to Vettel than Rosberg was to Hamilton. But when Rosberg had a qualifying howler, he was still 2nd on the grid and the podium, whereas Kimi was having to fight with others. And Bottas has been similar, in that now the Mercedes has lost his crushing advantage he's actually having to fight for podiums for a change. And so he's being slated because of the end result.

Hamilton didn't have a car in 2007 like Rosberg had 2014-2016, he had a car similar to what Bottas has now, and Bottas is an example when things can go wrong when you are under the spotlight, despite wins, poles and podiums he's said that this is the most difficult time in his F1 career as he is struggling to perform,and this is Bottas' 5th season, Hamilton was a rookie against Alonso in a title fight and also against another team, has there ever been a tougher test for a rookie?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:56 am 
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Two wins in 55 starts, and a few other flashes of brilliance and we're writing off three of the all-time greats to bestow this kid as the best? Puh-lease.

The other three have an entire CV full of Malaysian Grand Prix performances, full of Brazilian Grand Prix performances. Lets have this discussion if/when he has produced that sort of material season in, season out whilst under the pressure of fighting for a WDC. Until then he's not in the conversation tbh.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:53 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
It's far from rubbish actually. Max had very limited pre-F1 experience BUT coming in at 17 did wonders for him because the younger you can begin practicing something and honing your skills, the better you become in a shorter time period. Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did. Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I'll stick with my assessment of them.

Hamilton was 22 in his rookie season. Verstappen just turned 20.

You stated that Hamilton was better than Verstappen for his age. I pointed out that this is completely false. Hamilton on his 20th birthday finished 5th in Formula 3 and was beaten by drivers like Green, Premat, and Lapierre.

Verstappen at 19-20 is outclassing Ricciardo in the same car. Yes, Verstappen has outclassed Ricciardo this season regardless of what the points say.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:08 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did.


Are you even aware of what Verstappen did in karting?

He started karting at age 4, to this date he is the youngest ever KZ1 world champion and the youngest ever to win a gearbox class karting world championship.

You're welcome to indicate how Hamilton had "vastly more experience" than Verstappen when he started in single seaters or how Verstappen wasn't a phenom since his karting days.

Quote:
Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.


I don't dispute that, what I dispute is the following, hard to misinterpret statement by you:
Hamilton was even better at his age

History shows that a just-20yo Hamilton just came off the back of finishing fifth in F3. While a 17yo Verstappen was raking in the wins in F3 and a comparable 20-yo Verstappen just won his second race in F1.

There's no way you can make a good case for Hamilton being better having just turned 20 than Verstappen having just turned 20. That is nonsense and the facts above tell you why.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:10 am 
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JackAttack_19 wrote:
Two wins in 55 starts, and a few other flashes of brilliance and we're writing off three of the all-time greats to bestow this kid as the best? Puh-lease.

The other three have an entire CV full of Malaysian Grand Prix performances, full of Brazilian Grand Prix performances. Lets have this discussion if/when he has produced that sort of material season in, season out whilst under the pressure of fighting for a WDC. Until then he's not in the conversation tbh.


Mercedes and RBR were fighting for him 3 years ago, and now Ferrari and Mercedes are said to be gearing up to throw money at him for 2019. Going by that, while he may not be fully there yet, I'd say he's very much entering the conversation :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:14 am 
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pokerman wrote:
When Hamilton competed in F3 it was 2 rungs down from F1, when Verstappen competed in F3 it was 3 rungs down from F1, the driver that won the title, Ocon then went into GP3.

Hamilton competed in the F3 Euroseries which later got disbanded and replaced by GP3, F3 then later got rehashed but at a lower level to what it was originally.


And Verstappen was a single seater rookie outright, and he still went up against some promising drivers.

But this dicussion doesn't even have to revolve around their first seasons in F3. The statement was simple, "aged 20 Hamilton was better than Verstappen". And then the plain simple facts are Hamilton had just come fifth in F3 while Verstappen has just imperiously won an F1 race. That statement was nonsense.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:34 am 
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mds wrote:
JackAttack_19 wrote:
Two wins in 55 starts, and a few other flashes of brilliance and we're writing off three of the all-time greats to bestow this kid as the best? Puh-lease.

The other three have an entire CV full of Malaysian Grand Prix performances, full of Brazilian Grand Prix performances. Lets have this discussion if/when he has produced that sort of material season in, season out whilst under the pressure of fighting for a WDC. Until then he's not in the conversation tbh.


Mercedes and RBR were fighting for him 3 years ago, and now Ferrari and Mercedes are said to be gearing up to throw money at him for 2019. Going by that, while he may not be fully there yet, I'd say he's very much entering the conversation :)


I'll respectfully disagree. Call me old fashioned, but media speculation and a couple of flashes of brilliance doesn't really equate to having a CV full of achievements, and years of sustained brilliance. To me, he's not in there YET.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:42 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
It's far from rubbish actually. Max had very limited pre-F1 experience BUT coming in at 17 did wonders for him because the younger you can begin practicing something and honing your skills, the better you become in a shorter time period. Having said that, Hamilton was a phenom SINCE his karting days and by the time he made it to the Jr formulae he had vastly more experience than Verstappen did. Then Hamilton came into F1 and was "IMMEDIATELY" as fast, if not faster than his 2x World Championship teammate which is something we have NEVER seen in the modern era of F1.

I'll stick with my assessment of them.

Hamilton was 22 in his rookie season. Verstappen just turned 20.

You stated that Hamilton was better than Verstappen for his age. I pointed out that this is completely false. Hamilton on his 20th birthday finished 5th in Formula 3 and was beaten by drivers like Green, Premat, and Lapierre.

Verstappen at 19-20 is outclassing Ricciardo in the same car. Yes, Verstappen has outclassed Ricciardo this season regardless of what the points say.


The get out of jail free card for Verstappen seems to be his age.
He is 20 years old but has now competed for 2,5 years in F1.
He still have "2" years to make mistakes and improve before being compared to Hamilton at the same age.[what a luxury]

He took a massive shortcut(same for Vettel), no wonder the FIA had to quickly reform the superlicense prerequisites necessary to start in F1. Good for him and his entourage.


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