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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:33 pm 
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While I strongly doubt he will end up doing so (if nothing else, as a result of the pressure from Mercedes and the possible repercussions it could have on their sales figures in the USA) - there have been reports about Hamilton hinting that he may join the athletes who have taken the knee in protest of their belief that police officers who have shot dead innocent black people in America have not faced severe enough, or any, consequences for their actions.

Edit - for clarification - this would be during the US Grand Prix in Austin, and on the grid, when the American national anthem is played prior to the start of the race.

(Source: SkySportsF1 - http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... l-protests )

Obviously, this issue is a very sensitive one, and deals with many issues from racial profiling, institutional racism, and the difficulties faced by law enforcement officers dealing with potential life endangering situations. Issues faced by police forces across the world.

Now, while it may be difficult to completely ignore this issue when discussing this thread - I don't think it will be helpful to engage in an analysis of that situation by itself - it's clear that both sides feel very strongly about what's going on.

The reason I bring it up is because of the potential consequences that it could have if Hamilton were to go through with it and take the knee when the American national anthem is played during the US Grand Prix.

I imagine he would definitely receive a penalty of some form from the FIA, for improper conduct during the national anthem (similar to the one Ferrari received for the podium misconduct at Austria 2002)

However, I am curious as to how this would be perceived by Americans and the American media.

Given how partisan the American media is, particularly at the moment, there is no doubt the the right leaning media would condemn it - however I am curious as to how the left leaning media would portray it. There is a fundamental difference to the NFL protests, and that's that the NFL players protests are American (and if not, they are least permanently resident in America) - this would be a foreigner, coming to America and protesting during the national anthem.

The same applies to the American people themselves - particularly given that American racing fans contain a very large right wing contingent, see NASCAR's response to protests - and Texas is a right wing state (although Austin is one America's most liberal cities)

Another thing to consider is that Americans are probably the most nationalistic when it comes to the issue of their flag and their national anthem. While I am not suggesting there are not nationalistic people in other countries, my experience is that the typical American attitude towards these two symbols of their nation borders almost on being religious in comparison, and consequently the outrage would be even bigger.

Now, there is no doubt there is a lot of discussion to be had - particularly given the fact that Hamilton has not protested in countries like Russia, Bahrain or Baku (although he was pretty frosty to Putin when he won the first race back in 2014 - that is not really comparable to protesting a national anthem.

Of course, the counter to this is that Hamilton does have a personal connection relating to those affected by the issue, and while his perspective may be that he's troubled by the problems faced by black people and the American Police, I personally think that most people in America would see him as a foreigner first, just one that happens to be black as well, and I'm not sure that will go down very well as a result.

And please, this is a very sensitive issue, so let's try to discuss it with some decorum and thought to our responses, without trivialising it.


Last edited by Alienturnedhuman on Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:41 pm 
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I think that as it is not his national anthem then it kind of misses the point. By taking a knee he can't be called "unpatriotic" but on the other hand it's not his government to condone or otherwise. We race in a few countries with issues and it seems unreasonable to support them and stand proudly for their anthem but not America's.

On the flip side again he does spend a lot of his time in the States so probably feels fairly connected.

So I guess ultimately I don't know. I guess he should do what he feels most comfortable doing. I do feel he would be missing the mark somewhat by taking a knee.

I doubt the FIA would take any action given the subject and reasons behind it. It would look too bad.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Personally,
1) I think he will do it, he is strongly opinionated and will feel obliged.
2) It will go down badly, NASCAR are as you say right wing.
3) Mercedes will have words but will probably do nothing, Toto has already said the more you try to box LH the worse his performance. https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/231879/wolff-suggests-hamilton-should-rethink-his-political-expressions
4) The FIA will sanction with a fine and make a complete PR mess of the whole thing.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:46 pm 
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I personally would quite like him to do it. Be nice if Wehrlein joined him.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:50 pm 
There aren't many concepts I dislike more than nationalism and patriotism. But in terms of making a statement, it doesn't really work with the British/German anthems with it being a USA issue and him not being American. I am sure it is a cause he supports but there are better ways to show it especially when you are the focal point of a huge company like Mercedes.

If he does do it, I suspect it will be in Parce Ferme as he gets out of the car I don't think it will occur during the main podium ceremony, maybe after the main ceremony on the podium.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:52 pm 
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lamo wrote:
There aren't many concepts I dislike more than nationalism and patriotism. But in terms of making a statement, it doesn't really work with the British/German anthems with it being a USA issue and him not being American. I am sure it is a cause he supports but there are better ways to show it especially when you are the focal point of a huge company like Mercedes.

If he does do it, I suspect it will be in Parce Ferme as he gets out of the car I don't think it will occur during the main podium ceremony, maybe after the main ceremony on the podium.

No, he's not talking about protesting on the podium (my remarks about Austria maybe confused this) - if he protests it will be when the drivers line up on the grid before the race starts as they play the American national anthem.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:52 pm 
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It's a pretty complex issue. The original, protest was about the police shooting black people, as outlined above, but when Trump got involved it evolved into a symbol of defiance against (his) authority. Disrespecting the flag is a huge deal in the USA, in my (limited) experience, and I'm in complete agreement when you say that Hamilton getting involved will likely be seen first and foremost in that context, rather than as any racial protest. I think Hamilton would be unwise to do it, personally. This is a national issue and he shouldn't get involved


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:00 pm 
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I decided to look up the regulations regarding the national anthem on the grid, and actually, it doesn't look like taking the knee would break them:
F1 Sporting Regulations 2017 wrote:
19.4 ii)

14 minutes before the scheduled start of the formation lap all drivers must be present
at the front of the grid for the playing of the national anthem. Competitors will be given
details by the FIA press delegate.

Incidentally, the PDF for the F1 regulations further highlights FIA incompetency - while it is the 2017 Sporting Regulations, which is clearly printed on the top of the documents, the internal metadata calls it:

"Draft 1999 F1 Sporting Regulations"

FIA, celebrating at least 18 years of IT incompetence. ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:00 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
This is a national issue and he shouldn't get involved


Yeah I agree with this. I think the Americans would react badly to such an action by an "outsider". Jamie Oliver got sent packing in tears when he tried to get them to eat better :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:04 pm 
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
lamo wrote:
There aren't many concepts I dislike more than nationalism and patriotism. But in terms of making a statement, it doesn't really work with the British/German anthems with it being a USA issue and him not being American. I am sure it is a cause he supports but there are better ways to show it especially when you are the focal point of a huge company like Mercedes.

If he does do it, I suspect it will be in Parce Ferme as he gets out of the car I don't think it will occur during the main podium ceremony, maybe after the main ceremony on the podium.

No, he's not talking about protesting on the podium (my remarks about Austria maybe confused this) - if he protests it will be when the drivers line up on the grid before the race starts as they play the American national anthem.


Oh for the USA GP, I see. My mistake. In Texas of all places, I hope not.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:11 pm 
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I suspect that if he informed his team that he was going to, he would not be entered in that race.

Which ever way it goes neither he, the team or F1 will be seen in the best light over it. He does have strong feelings and it would be unfair not to back him, but I really can not see Merc or FIA wanting to get involved.

I would support him if it was an individual action, but he is representing a multinational team and company, so it needs thought.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:11 pm 
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I would hope he wouldn't do it and i'd probably lose a bit of respect for him if he did.

Without delving too deep into the subject matter there are widely conflicting reports on actually how bad the issue is and it's not only the black community that faces this.

A month or so ago an expat Australian woman was gunned down by a black police officer for doing nothing other than approaching the cop car to report an assault in her neighbourhood. She'd earlier called the police and was clearly un-armed when she approached the car. neither the officer involved or the police department offered any comment and of course video evidence was not available.

There is a also a video doing the rounds of the end result of a police chase where the car rolls and ends up laying on it's side. As the driver, a white male and again, clearly un-armed and probably quite injured, attempts to climb out of the cars passenger window a cop, who was walking towards the vehicle, pumps two bullets into him, one in the neck. I wont post a link but it's on You Tube if you feel the need.

I guess what i'm trying to say is that I hope Lewis does his homework and takes the time to look at all areas of the debate and get some facts sorted either way before making a decision

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:19 pm 
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I think he should definitely stay out of it. I personally think that the gesture is just wrong itself. I understand why people are protesting and what message they are trying to communicate, but we can't forget about how many good folks are being offended by that gesture. There needs to be a better way to protest and show how you feel about that subject. I have heard of quite a few war veterans, people who have lost limbs, fighting for the United States, and they take great offense that someone would dare not standing for their national anthem. So yeah...Lewis, please please do not do this.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:20 pm 
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I like drama, I say go for it Lewis :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:22 pm 
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This is the sort of cringeworthy thing I'd expect Hamilton to do. He definitely shouldn't do it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Id be flabbergasted if he took a knee. I'd also think it was outrageous esp as he isn't American. Didn't see him doing any protests in Russia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain etc or any other questionable countries.

Mercedes have revenues of $100billion+ a year. People on the forum regularly talk like Toto pulls all the strings.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:27 pm 
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I know he supports it, and there's nothing wrong with that, but like mikeyg123 says - it's not his national anthem. I don't think it would have the same resonance. Sadly, I'd only expect ridicule

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Zazu wrote:
Id be flabbergasted if he took a knee. I'd also think it was outrageous esp as he isn't American. Didn't see him doing any protests in Russia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain etc or any other questionable countries.

Mercedes have revenues of $100billion+ a year. People on the forum regularly talk like Toto pulls all the strings.


Toto does what the Merc board says he does.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:33 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
I think he should definitely stay out of it. I personally think that the gesture is just wrong itself. I understand why people are protesting and what message they are trying to communicate, but we can't forget about how many good folks are being offended by that gesture. There needs to be a better way to protest and show how you feel about that subject. I have heard of quite a few war veterans, people who have lost limbs, fighting for the United States, and they take great offense that someone would dare not standing for their national anthem. So yeah...Lewis, please please do not do this.

This is the point of the protest though. A protest that you can ignore is pointless.
This is possibly the best method of protest they can take, it's non violent but it is provoking discussion.If they were just wearing a brightly coloured armband or signing an online petition, the only people who would be made aware of the issue would be those already aware of it, and the few people who weren't and asked "why are they wearing those armbands" would just go "oh" and move on with their lives afterwards.

For the protesters - ill informed or not - it is a huge issue. They know the outrage they will cause by their actions but from their perspective (and again, regardless of whether their perspective is accurate or not, it is their belief) the institutional racism and lack of consequence among a subset of police officers is huge when they see news reports over and over again of innocent people they identify being killed every week.

Yes, there are war veterans who have died protecting America, however if you asked those affected by the issue, they would say that America is not protecting them, if anything, they feel unsafe by law enforcement - the national anthem is symbolic for the United States so consequently their action of not standing for it is symbolic of their very protest.

And that's where the issue kicks in, as a non American, Hamilton is not represented by America and the symbols for the country and its protection to its citizens do not apply to him. While he no doubt identifies with those he perceives is affected by them (and to be honest, even if the issue does not statistically affect black people, but all people, it does seem that there is a lack of accountability for police officers showing bad judgement when handling their firearms, so I don't see why that invalidates a protest against the issue) - Hamilton is not an American and therefore his protest against it, worthy is not, is fundamentally different to someone who was born and lives and has citizenship of the United States.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:34 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
I know he supports it, and there's nothing wrong with that, but like mikeyg123 says - it's not his national anthem. I don't think it would have the same resonance. Sadly, I'd only expect ridicule

That's true but Hamilton does or did spend a lot of time in the US and I believe he's referred to it feeling like home, or a second home, to him in the past so he clearly feels he has strong ties to the country. I agree it doesn't have the same impact, he may not see it that way.

As far as the media goes the right leaning media would condemn him and the left leaning media would praise him. I take the point made in the OP about it being different to NFL as Hamilton is an 'outsider' but ultimately once the inevitable Trump tweet that reads like a 6 year old has wrote it comes, the media will follow the usual lines of pro/anti Trump.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I know he supports it, and there's nothing wrong with that, but like mikeyg123 says - it's not his national anthem. I don't think it would have the same resonance. Sadly, I'd only expect ridicule

That's true but Hamilton does or did spend a lot of time in the US and I believe he's referred to it feeling like home, or a second home, to him in the past so he clearly feels he has strong ties to the country. I agree it doesn't have the same impact, he may not see it that way.

As far as the media goes the right leaning media would condemn him and the left leaning media would praise him. I take the point made in the OP about it being different to NFL as Hamilton is an 'outsider' but ultimately once the inevitable Trump tweet that reads like a 6 year old has wrote it comes, the media will follow the usual lines of pro/anti Trump.


But he does not have a vote in the US, which I believe to be the essential issue


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:49 pm 
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To those thinking this would be a cheap publicity stunt, then I think that is very misinformed.

Regardless of whether his beliefs regarding the protest are correct or misinformed, ultimately Hamilton is a very popular driver in the United States at the moment, he's got the win record at the US grand prix (and if he wins this year will have it exclusively) and if he was to take the knee at the event it would cost him a huge slice of that support. He would almost certainly be booed on the podium as a result, and probably booed for several years to come while the event is held in Texas.

The US is the biggest market in the world for the products he represents, and it would definitely damage his marketability, and - depending on who his sponsors are - some may even drop him as a result.

So it would definitely not be a self serving publicity stunt, quite the opposite in fact.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:01 pm 
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moby wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I know he supports it, and there's nothing wrong with that, but like mikeyg123 says - it's not his national anthem. I don't think it would have the same resonance. Sadly, I'd only expect ridicule

That's true but Hamilton does or did spend a lot of time in the US and I believe he's referred to it feeling like home, or a second home, to him in the past so he clearly feels he has strong ties to the country. I agree it doesn't have the same impact, he may not see it that way.

As far as the media goes the right leaning media would condemn him and the left leaning media would praise him. I take the point made in the OP about it being different to NFL as Hamilton is an 'outsider' but ultimately once the inevitable Trump tweet that reads like a 6 year old has wrote it comes, the media will follow the usual lines of pro/anti Trump.


But he does not have a vote in the US, which I believe to be the essential issue



Is it? Not sure myself but are all NFL players 'american' in that respect? If not then I don't see a big difference. He is an elite black sportsman who has a permanent home in Colorado and pays taxes on his american earnings. Ive always assumed those from other countries can play in the NFL, in the same way footballers do in the UK. Although I stand to be corrected.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:04 pm 
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The rules specify that a driver has to be present, not that he has to stand up.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:15 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
moby wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I know he supports it, and there's nothing wrong with that, but like mikeyg123 says - it's not his national anthem. I don't think it would have the same resonance. Sadly, I'd only expect ridicule

That's true but Hamilton does or did spend a lot of time in the US and I believe he's referred to it feeling like home, or a second home, to him in the past so he clearly feels he has strong ties to the country. I agree it doesn't have the same impact, he may not see it that way.

As far as the media goes the right leaning media would condemn him and the left leaning media would praise him. I take the point made in the OP about it being different to NFL as Hamilton is an 'outsider' but ultimately once the inevitable Trump tweet that reads like a 6 year old has wrote it comes, the media will follow the usual lines of pro/anti Trump.


But he does not have a vote in the US, which I believe to be the essential issue



Is it? Not sure myself but are all NFL players 'american' in that respect? If not then I don't see a big difference. He is an elite black sportsman who has a permanent home in Colorado and pays taxes on his american earnings. Ive always assumed those from other countries can play in the NFL, in the same way footballers do in the UK. Although I stand to be corrected.



He is a British citizen which means he has no say in US politics. If he has issues with the UK police, yes, but the only reason any politician will pay any attention to a protest is of will cost him votes.

I have also decide not to post in this thread again as it can only end badly which ever way it goes,


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:22 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I think he should definitely stay out of it. I personally think that the gesture is just wrong itself. I understand why people are protesting and what message they are trying to communicate, but we can't forget about how many good folks are being offended by that gesture. There needs to be a better way to protest and show how you feel about that subject. I have heard of quite a few war veterans, people who have lost limbs, fighting for the United States, and they take great offense that someone would dare not standing for their national anthem. So yeah...Lewis, please please do not do this.

This is the point of the protest though. A protest that you can ignore is pointless.
This is possibly the best method of protest they can take, it's non violent but it is provoking discussion.If they were just wearing a brightly coloured armband or signing an online petition, the only people who would be made aware of the issue would be those already aware of it, and the few people who weren't and asked "why are they wearing those armbands" would just go "oh" and move on with their lives afterwards.

For the protesters - ill informed or not - it is a huge issue. They know the outrage they will cause by their actions but from their perspective (and again, regardless of whether their perspective is accurate or not, it is their belief) the institutional racism and lack of consequence among a subset of police officers is huge when they see news reports over and over again of innocent people they identify being killed every week.

Yes, there are war veterans who have died protecting America, however if you asked those affected by the issue, they would say that America is not protecting them, if anything, they feel unsafe by law enforcement - the national anthem is symbolic for the United States so consequently their action of not standing for it is symbolic of their very protest.

And that's where the issue kicks in, as a non American, Hamilton is not represented by America and the symbols for the country and its protection to its citizens do not apply to him. While he no doubt identifies with those he perceives is affected by them (and to be honest, even if the issue does not statistically affect black people, but all people, it does seem that there is a lack of accountability for police officers showing bad judgement when handling their firearms, so I don't see why that invalidates a protest against the issue) - Hamilton is not an American and therefore his protest against it, worthy is not, is fundamentally different to someone who was born and lives and has citizenship of the United States.



Do you live in the United States? Because I do, and I know for a fact there are many people who have canceled their NFL television package because they are so offended with what the players are doing. And guess what, the NFL have even agreed to give them a refund.
So you think this protest is ok because it simply cannot be ignored?
There are other ways players can protest and still have their voices heard if it's so important to them. There are plenty of popular talk shows, radio shows, that would love to have them come in and discuss the issues at hand. Kneeling for the national anthem accomplishes nothing good, and so far has created far more division, from what I can tell. Actually having a dialogue and speaking would accomplish far more.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:09 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Do you live in the United States? Because I do, and I know for a fact there are many people who have canceled their NFL television package because they are so offended with what the players are doing. And guess what, the NFL have even agreed to give them a refund.
So you think this protest is ok because it simply cannot be ignored?
There are other ways players can protest and still have their voices heard if it's so important to them. There are plenty of popular talk shows, radio shows, that would love to have them come in and discuss the issues at hand. Kneeling for the national anthem accomplishes nothing good, and so far has created far more division, from what I can tell. Actually having a dialogue and speaking would accomplish far more.

No, I do not live in the United States, but that does not mean I'm not able to voice my opinion or observations on the matter.

I am not surprised that people have cancelled their NFL subscriptions. The NFL agreeing to give them a refund does not mean that they are siding with the people who are outraged (nor with the players protesting) it's just them recognising that not allowing them to cancel would provoke negative blowback for them.

I would question a society or people who view kneeling when a piece of music is played as being worse than a multitude of deaths of innocent people.

The national anthem and the stars and stripes are emblematic of the United States. Most war veterans who have fought for their country will have been proud of the country they fought for, and Americans who are proud of their country will feel that pride when they see the flag.

However, America is a very large country - both in geography and in population. What one person sees as America for them is different for what America is for another, even if they may agree on the ideal of what America should be.

It's quite possible for one person to see the present day America as far and just, and another to see the present day America as institutionally racist or otherwise discriminatory towards a particular race or social group. Most people only associate with people who are broadly similar to them and consequently most of us live in our own bubbles and echo chambers meaning it's difficult to see or empathise with the plights of people who may have a different experience within the same environment. It's also what leads to the creation of grossly exaggerate strawmen (by both sides) becoming the clearly ridiculous figures to hate.

You say why not go on radio shows, or talk shows - well, this again would just be easy to ignore, not to mention, conveniently slotting into the existing echo chamber of modern media. List a name of TV stations, or talk shows or whatever, and the vast, vast majority - particularly those with large audiences - will be easy to label "Conservative" or "Liberal" - what good is preaching to the choir, or entering the lions den just to be shouted down by someone disagrees with you and whose audience mostly hate the position you stand for?

The act of kneeling to the national anthem is provocative. That's the point. It's also harmless, it's non disruptive, but it does get attention and it is very emotive. And to the people protesting, it is symbollic, it probably even pains a lot of them to have to do it because they probably are proud to be American and the ideals America should stand for. It's not like they want to be receiving the large amount of negativity they are receiving. From their point of view they would much rather the issue did not exist, or that action was taken against it.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:14 pm 
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Do you live in the United States? Because I do, and I know for a fact there are many people who have canceled their NFL television package because they are so offended with what the players are doing. And guess what, the NFL have even agreed to give them a refund.
So you think this protest is ok because it simply cannot be ignored?
There are other ways players can protest and still have their voices heard if it's so important to them. There are plenty of popular talk shows, radio shows, that would love to have them come in and discuss the issues at hand. Kneeling for the national anthem accomplishes nothing good, and so far has created far more division, from what I can tell. Actually having a dialogue and speaking would accomplish far more.


Dialogue hasn't worked though has it, this has and many are talking about it, even on this F1 forum. Its a protest against a perceived injustice, you are right I don't live in the USA but looking from the outside there is something to be put right.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:16 pm 
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Weighing in from the American midwest here. Briefly, I think Trump's statement hostile to the protests in the NFL was wildly inappropriate. Those men have a right to protest. I don't agree with the kneeling during the anthem. I wish they'd do something more productive like refusing to answer any media questions without first addressing the injustice they perceive in this country for example. I do, however, still watch the NFL and support these men, even if I don't agree.

Lewis is another example and his doing this would cause this American fan to be irate. Why?
1) Lewis isn't American, he's never lived here, and his being a tourist here occasionally doesn't give rise to this type of privilege. I'd never dream of such a gesture on foreign soil

2) Lewis races in Russia, China, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain, and has in the past raced in Turkey, among other places. All of these are egregiously worse human rights violators than the United States and I've heard nothing about any of those countries. I am borderline offended that F1 even takes the money and races in some of these places but that's neither here nor there.

3) IF Lewis does this and Mercedes does nothing to either prevent it or punish such an action, I'm done with Mercedes for a long long while, and I own a Mercedes, so I'm not just someone who couldn't afford one making such a standoffish statement.

F1 as a body needs to be prepared. The fanbase in the US is weak, and fallout from such an action would likely go further than simply alienating Lewis, but could endanger the viability of the US market for the sport in general for a while.

Trust me, I'm not extreme in my views, I'm representative and if anything, more moderate than most American fans. Lewis would be an idiot to do this, and it's exactly why I expect him to do it anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:32 pm 
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Please keep this crap out of F1!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:33 pm 
Out of interest, are none black players taking the knee too?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:47 pm 
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OpenWheelSnob87 wrote:
Weighing in from the American midwest here. Briefly, I think Trump's statement hostile to the protests in the NFL was wildly inappropriate. Those men have a right to protest. I don't agree with the kneeling during the anthem. I wish they'd do something more productive like refusing to answer any media questions without first addressing the injustice they perceive in this country for example. I do, however, still watch the NFL and support these men, even if I don't agree.

Lewis is another example and his doing this would cause this American fan to be irate. Why?
1) Lewis isn't American, he's never lived here, and his being a tourist here occasionally doesn't give rise to this type of privilege. I'd never dream of such a gesture on foreign soil

2) Lewis races in Russia, China, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain, and has in the past raced in Turkey, among other places. All of these are egregiously worse human rights violators than the United States and I've heard nothing about any of those countries. I am borderline offended that F1 even takes the money and races in some of these places but that's neither here nor there.

3) IF Lewis does this and Mercedes does nothing to either prevent it or punish such an action, I'm done with Mercedes for a long long while, and I own a Mercedes, so I'm not just someone who couldn't afford one making such a standoffish statement.

F1 as a body needs to be prepared. The fanbase in the US is weak, and fallout from such an action would likely go further than simply alienating Lewis, but could endanger the viability of the US market for the sport in general for a while.

Trust me, I'm not extreme in my views, I'm representative and if anything, more moderate than most American fans. Lewis would be an idiot to do this, and it's exactly why I expect him to do it anyway.


Hamilton does own a home in the Colorado and spends most of the winter there.

Genuine question from a non American. What is so disrespectful about kneeling during a national anthem.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:57 pm 
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Hamilton does own a home in the Colorado and spends most of the winter there.

Genuine question from a non American. What is so disrespectful about kneeling during a national anthem.[/quote]

I did not know about his home in Colorado. It softens my stance but only slightly. To me, it's not personally that offensive because I don't link kneeling during the anthem to respect for the military, those are separate concepts. Many, however, do think that way, and view it as sort of crapping all over veterans. That's probably a majority of American thought, and it's why the massive reaction from the country outside of New York/LA/DC has been outrage and anger against the NFL.

In general, I think that if you compete in the international arena in any way, you should do what the locals do for the national anthem out of respect for your hosts. It's really simple courtesy. If I were an international athlete appearing in London or Rio and the anthems were played, I'd respectfully stand in deference to the people who've worked to put on the event or paid to see it.

To be clear though, what I, and many other Americans, will be upset about is that it's a political statement regarding a country he isn't a citizen of, and on top of that one made with a complete obliviousness to the other far worse actors on the F1 calendar. It's a dangerous slope to start to walk down. Why kneel during the US anthem but say nothing in Russia, China, or others? I would personally be far less offended if Lewis were an open and vocal advocate for social justice all over the calendar. If he is, I don't know about it. Therefore, it comes off as an ill-advised "me too" type of gesture that will not go over well here at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:25 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The same applies to the American people themselves - particularly given that American racing fans contain a very large right wing contingent, see NASCAR's response to protests - and Texas is a right wing state (although Austin is one America's most liberal cities)

Speaking of which, has anyone seen the backlash against Dale Jr. over his support of the protests? One minute he's by far and away the most popular driver since the day his dad died, the next minute he's dead to people, he's a "has been" and a failure after his father (who would be turning in his grave apparently)

All he did was say that all Americans have a right to a peaceful protest (and declared that he himself would always stand for the anthem). It's been one hell of a backlash. All while he's racing in his last few races before retirement. It's sad really

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:27 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The same applies to the American people themselves - particularly given that American racing fans contain a very large right wing contingent, see NASCAR's response to protests - and Texas is a right wing state (although Austin is one America's most liberal cities)

Speaking of which, has anyone seen the backlash against Dale Jr. over his support of the protests? One minute he's by far and away the most popular driver since the day his dad died, the next minute he's dead to people, he's a "has been" and a failure after his father (who would be turning in his grave apparently)

All he did was say that all Americans have a right to a peaceful protest (and declared that he himself would always stand for the anthem). It's been one hell of a backlash. All while he's racing in his last few races before retirement. It's sad really



That's why I said no good could come of this thread. I implore all sensible posters to retire from it as we do not want to lose any


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:47 am 
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Inappropriate post removed.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:01 am 
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It's another 3 weeks before the USGP which means there's plenty of time for Trump to say or do something that will have everyone off on a different tangent by then.

By the time the circus comes to Austin the issue won't be the talking point it is now so I doubt Lewis will be taking a knee.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:13 am 
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RaggedMan wrote:
It's another 3 weeks before the USGP which means there's plenty of time for Trump to say or do something that will have everyone off on a different tangent by then.

By the time the circus comes to Austin the issue won't be the talking point it is now so I doubt Lewis will be taking a knee.


True, providing the police don't get involved in another controversial shooting between now and then. Isn't that the issue rather than Trump's manipulation or Hamiltons protest.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:20 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
It's another 3 weeks before the USGP which means there's plenty of time for Trump to say or do something that will have everyone off on a different tangent by then.

By the time the circus comes to Austin the issue won't be the talking point it is now so I doubt Lewis will be taking a knee.


True, providing the police don't get involved in another controversial shooting between now and then. Isn't that the issue rather than Trump's manipulation or Hamiltons protest.

Indeed that is the issue that's being protested. And it was a protest that was low key and the actual issue at hand was being discussed more for about a year until #45 opined on the subject which is why it is now more about the flag, the anthem, and veterans and not exssevice force against minorities. Deflect and blame, rinse and repeat.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:37 am 
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.

Hamilton is British and so it won't occur.

Only the USA is quite so old fashioned and weird about their flag, and National Anthem. Their "civilian salute" is likewise weird (although the previous version is good for a laugh) ;

See "The Bellamy Salute"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

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