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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Invade wrote:
BTW, Ham has bagged THREE grand chelems this season in the least dominant year of the ongoing Merc era. He's really dominant when he's on it.

It was a lot more difficult to get Grand Chelems when the Merc was super dominant than it is when it's not.

That may sound counter intuitive but it's because of the number of 1-2s Merc got, and their policy for the leading car to pit first it meant that Rosberg always got a lap in the lead because Hamilton pitted first. The Grand Chelem also required the fastest lap - however fastest laps are also set towards the end of the race. After the final pitstop, assuming they weren't in close contention on the track, there was no need to run flat out, meaning the fastest lap would often be set by a driver who started outside the top 10 and fitted the softest tyre compound at the end.

Now Merc isn't dominant, it makes the opportunity to get a Grand Chelem more likely, because the typical approach is for the cars behind to try and get the undercut. That means the leading car is usually the last to pit, when all those behind have also pitted meaning they never lose the lead. It also means, with other teams competing for the win, they can't get complacent and run at a more conservative pace, they have to go flat out.

If you were to go through and look at the number of Grand Chelems Hamilton would have if you discount the one lap Rosberg led for during the tyre change it would probably be equal to the number of 1-2s they had with Hamilton in front that he got the pole and fastest lap.



That's all true as well as the Merc dominance in qualifying not being replicated in the race creating good circumstances for churning out some grand chelems (start on pole yet less likely to be impeded by team-mate in a more competitive field at the top end, then maintain from the front).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Thank you for writing the bolded part. That let's me know not to waste any more time with you.

The underlying message is too discredit Hamilton's title if he goes on to win the WDC.

I'd say the opposite is true and those refusing to even consider that the Mercedes qualifying advantage had a significant impact upon the year are themselves trying to lay a foundation for claiming that Hamilton somehow pulled off a title against the odds, in an inferior car.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The underlying message is too discredit Hamilton's title if he goes on to win the WDC.

I'd say the opposite is true and those refusing to even consider that the Mercedes qualifying advantage had a significant impact upon the year are themselves trying to lay a foundation for claiming that Hamilton somehow pulled off a title against the odds, in an inferior car.

First of all I had to clear the quotes. :)

Secondly I've never said the Mercedes was inferior in fact generally speaking I've been quite neutral, I'm just responding to the thread itself that claims that Mercedes are dominant.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Well, it ended this year.

This is the issue with "dominance", some people take only the end result into consideration. Just look at the Red Bull "dominant years", they never existed. A non dominant year was followed by a dominant one but when people look back they talk of Red Bull being dominant for 4 years.

The Mercedes has been the better car this year but dominant? No chance.

Again, I agree with you here. Mercedes has been the better car overall but it's not as though it's enjoyed any kind of dominance in any traditional sense of the word. It still needed a good driver to get the result. I'd say a better description might be that Mercedes had an edge this year, but at this level that's all it takes.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The underlying message is too discredit Hamilton's title if he goes on to win the WDC.

I'd say the opposite is true and those refusing to even consider that the Mercedes qualifying advantage had a significant impact upon the year are themselves trying to lay a foundation for claiming that Hamilton somehow pulled off a title against the odds, in an inferior car.

First of all I had to clear the quotes. :)

Secondly I've never said the Mercedes was inferior in fact generally speaking I've been quite neutral, I'm just responding to the thread itself that claims that Mercedes are dominant.

Yeah I think i just beat you to the quotes edit! 8)

Some, including the one you were responding to, have been quite vociferous in shouting down anyone who dares claim that Mercedes may have had an advantage. Some clearly take it personally.

I don't think anyone can claim Mercedes are dominant, not in the usually accepted sense of the word. For me it's clear they have been slightly better though, particularly in qualifying, but Bottas has shown that it still needed a special driver to take advantage of that.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The underlying message is too discredit Hamilton's title if he goes on to win the WDC.

I'd say the opposite is true and those refusing to even consider that the Mercedes qualifying advantage had a significant impact upon the year are themselves trying to lay a foundation for claiming that Hamilton somehow pulled off a title against the odds, in an inferior car.

First of all I had to clear the quotes. :)

Secondly I've never said the Mercedes was inferior in fact generally speaking I've been quite neutral, I'm just responding to the thread itself that claims that Mercedes are dominant.

Yeah I think i just beat you to the quotes edit! 8)

Some, including the one you were responding to, have been quite vociferous in shouting down anyone who dares claim that Mercedes may have had an advantage. Some clearly take it personally.

I don't think anyone can claim Mercedes are dominant, not in the usually accepted sense of the word. For me it's clear they have been slightly better though, particularly in qualifying, but Bottas has shown that it still needed a special driver to take advantage of that.

I wouldn't disagree that the Mercedes has been the better qualifying car but actual speed in the races that's up for debate which I've known you've debated with others, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's been Ferrari although I've not looked at it that closely but obviously track position is important also.

It was a 50/50 fight until Ferrari dropped the ball these past 2 races and you know I've given some responsibility to Vettel in Malaysia, 2 of these races Mercedes only had the third fastest car and Vettel should have won both races.

Vettel for me messed up in Baku and fought the wrong battle in Malaysia, Hamilton has chosen not to engage with Verstappen, so although Vettel has had more bad luck that doesn't account for 59 points, some of that is down to Vettel as well.

So in respect to the thread a dominant car doesn't get involved in a close to 50/50 fight unless you are saying the drivers are vastly inferior.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:46 pm 
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  • Mercedes has won 10/16 races and taken 21/32 podiums. (At the same stage last year the Mercedes had 14/16 wins and 23/32 podiums.)
  • Ferrari have won 4/16 and taken 14/32 podiums
  • Red Bull have won 2/16 and taken 12/32 podiums

Stats don't tell the full story, but whilst the Mercedes is not as far in front as it once was, and I'd not call it a totally dominant car, it clearly is still the car to be in. The Mercedes is the dominant car in qualifying, barring a few tracks. In terms of race pace, I don't think there is a huge amount in it - The Mercedes probably being the faster in a short burst, and is fairly dominant if conditions are favourable - but it suffers with tyres in hot weather, isn't as nimble on high down force tracks, and has a narrower window. The Ferrari is kinder on tyres, works better in dirty air and has a wider operating window, but maybe not the short burst, clean air, pace the Mercedes has.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
  • Mercedes has won 10/16 races and taken 21/32 podiums. (At the same stage last year the Mercedes had 14/16 wins and 23/32 podiums.)
  • Ferrari have won 4/16 and taken 14/32 podiums
  • Red Bull have won 2/16 and taken 12/32 podiums

Stats don't tell the full story, but whilst the Mercedes is not as far in front as it once was, and I'd not call it a totally dominant car, it clearly is still the car to be in. The Mercedes is the dominant car in qualifying, barring a few tracks. In terms of race pace, I don't think there is a huge amount in it - The Mercedes probably being the faster in a short burst, and is fairly dominant if conditions are favourable - but it suffers with tyres in hot weather, isn't as nimble on high down force tracks, and has a narrower window. The Ferrari is kinder on tyres, works better in dirty air and has a wider operating window, but maybe not the short burst, clean air, pace the Mercedes has.

A totally dominant car shouldn't have Vettel beating Bottas, Vettel wins 8 races if there is no Hamilton, that doesn't include the races thrown away in Malaysia and Singapore.

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2017: 9th Place

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
A totally dominant car shouldn't have Vettel beating Bottas, Vettel wins 8 races if there is no Hamilton, that doesn't include the races thrown away in Malaysia and Singapore.

I'm guessing that the 2011 and 2013 Red Bull cars weren't dominant either. After all, Webber finished 3rd on both occasions.

In fact, I believe that the qualifying advantage the RB7 enjoyed is almost identical to what the W08 has enjoyed this year.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:17 pm 
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The cars are close enough now that the driver makes a difference. The Merc is not good enough any more that 75% of the grid would win a WDC in it. However the Mercedes dominance over the last 3yrs has been unprecedented to be that great for that long. Problem free it was a guaranteed 1-2 in all but a few out of 60 odd races.

As for Bottas, well I personally don't rate him that highly, I mean he is a good driver but so was Webber, etc. I feel he is is a tier below Rosberg and 2 tiers below Hamilton. His performances relative to Massa don't indicate anything special, imo.

He was still in the title hunt until the break, however Hamilton wasn't at his best in the first half of the season. Now Hamilton has hit form..... Bottas doesn't look great.

As the above poster says, this Merc is maybe more like the RB cars. Ahead but not dominant.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
  • Mercedes has won 10/16 races and taken 21/32 podiums. (At the same stage last year the Mercedes had 14/16 wins and 23/32 podiums.)
  • Ferrari have won 4/16 and taken 14/32 podiums
  • Red Bull have won 2/16 and taken 12/32 podiums

Stats don't tell the full story, but whilst the Mercedes is not as far in front as it once was, and I'd not call it a totally dominant car, it clearly is still the car to be in. The Mercedes is the dominant car in qualifying, barring a few tracks. In terms of race pace, I don't think there is a huge amount in it - The Mercedes probably being the faster in a short burst, and is fairly dominant if conditions are favourable - but it suffers with tyres in hot weather, isn't as nimble on high down force tracks, and has a narrower window. The Ferrari is kinder on tyres, works better in dirty air and has a wider operating window, but maybe not the short burst, clean air, pace the Mercedes has.

A totally dominant car shouldn't have Vettel beating Bottas, Vettel wins 8 races if there is no Hamilton, that doesn't include the races thrown away in Malaysia and Singapore.

We'll see how the season ends.

Remember Vettel was ahead of Rosberg with the same number of wins after 16 rounds of the 2015 season.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:42 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A totally dominant car shouldn't have Vettel beating Bottas, Vettel wins 8 races if there is no Hamilton, that doesn't include the races thrown away in Malaysia and Singapore.

I'm guessing that the 2011 and 2013 Red Bull cars weren't dominant either. After all, Webber finished 3rd on both occasions.

In fact, I believe that the qualifying advantage the RB7 enjoyed is almost identical to what the W08 has enjoyed this year.

Indeed Mark Webber, second place driver Alonso won 2 races in 2013, Vettel this year has won 4 races it should be 6 races with the speed of the car, Vettel wins Singapore and Malaysia, Hamilton wins Baku then we have 8-6 in favour of Hamilton, that's not a dominant car.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:04 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
  • Mercedes has won 10/16 races and taken 21/32 podiums. (At the same stage last year the Mercedes had 14/16 wins and 23/32 podiums.)
  • Ferrari have won 4/16 and taken 14/32 podiums
  • Red Bull have won 2/16 and taken 12/32 podiums

Stats don't tell the full story, but whilst the Mercedes is not as far in front as it once was, and I'd not call it a totally dominant car, it clearly is still the car to be in. The Mercedes is the dominant car in qualifying, barring a few tracks. In terms of race pace, I don't think there is a huge amount in it - The Mercedes probably being the faster in a short burst, and is fairly dominant if conditions are favourable - but it suffers with tyres in hot weather, isn't as nimble on high down force tracks, and has a narrower window. The Ferrari is kinder on tyres, works better in dirty air and has a wider operating window, but maybe not the short burst, clean air, pace the Mercedes has.

A totally dominant car shouldn't have Vettel beating Bottas, Vettel wins 8 races if there is no Hamilton, that doesn't include the races thrown away in Malaysia and Singapore.

We'll see how the season ends.

Remember Vettel was ahead of Rosberg with the same number of wins after 16 rounds of the 2015 season.

It shows how such things can be so deceiving when both drivers finished Rosberg beat Vettel 12-3, now we have Vettel beating Bottas 7-6, this includes Vettel not being able to pass Bottas in Russia for the win, he had to pit for a new wing in Canada, the penalty in Baku, then he couldn't pass Bottas for the win in Austria, let's not forget he started from the back of the grid in Malaysia and still beat Bottas, so crashes and mechanical issues not withstanding he beats Bottas.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:17 am 
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Mercedes will continue to dominate until the engine psu regulations are simplified to make the sport cheaper. Mercedes have the most resources and best engine designers. Only someone like Porsche or Audi could compete.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The underlying message is too discredit Hamilton's title if he goes on to win the WDC.

I'd say the opposite is true and those refusing to even consider that the Mercedes qualifying advantage had a significant impact upon the year are themselves trying to lay a foundation for claiming that Hamilton somehow pulled off a title against the odds, in an inferior car.

First of all I had to clear the quotes. :)

Secondly I've never said the Mercedes was inferior in fact generally speaking I've been quite neutral, I'm just responding to the thread itself that claims that Mercedes are dominant.

Yeah I think i just beat you to the quotes edit! 8)

Some, including the one you were responding to, have been quite vociferous in shouting down anyone who dares claim that Mercedes may have had an advantage. Some clearly take it personally.

I don't think anyone can claim Mercedes are dominant, not in the usually accepted sense of the word. For me it's clear they have been slightly better though, particularly in qualifying, but Bottas has shown that it still needed a special driver to take advantage of that.

I wouldn't disagree that the Mercedes has been the better qualifying car but actual speed in the races that's up for debate which I've known you've debated with others, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's been Ferrari although I've not looked at it that closely but obviously track position is important also.

It was a 50/50 fight until Ferrari dropped the ball these past 2 races and you know I've given some responsibility to Vettel in Malaysia, 2 of these races Mercedes only had the third fastest car and Vettel should have won both races.

Vettel for me messed up in Baku and fought the wrong battle in Malaysia, Hamilton has chosen not to engage with Verstappen, so although Vettel has had more bad luck that doesn't account for 59 points, some of that is down to Vettel as well.

So in respect to the thread a dominant car doesn't get involved in a close to 50/50 fight unless you are saying the drivers are vastly inferior.

Yes, I'd agree that you can't really call the Mercedes dominant on race pace. Qualifying is another matter, however. There I believe it truly is. And in threads that talk about relative car performance, or dominance, I don't think that can be ignored, which some on here seem almost desperate to do. Not talking about you, here.

Luck does play a part of course and until the last few races Vettel was right in with a shout. He was quick enough that had Mercedes dropped the ball he had a chance at winning it by picking up the pieces. But Mercedes, and Hamilton, have not shown anything obvious in the way of weakness and therefore the advantage they do hold becomes much more significant. Every race Lewis has won has been from pole, apart from Singapore where all his rivals took themselves out, which goes to show how important the pole advantage has been, especially when the drivers contesting the title have been so closely matched


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:58 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Mercedes will continue to dominate until the engine psu regulations are simplified to make the sport cheaper. Mercedes have the most resources and best engine designers. Only someone like Porsche or Audi could compete.

Sad but probably true.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:03 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Thank you for writing the bolded part. That let's me know not to waste any more time with you.

The underlying message is too discredit Hamilton's title if he goes on to win the WDC.

I'd say the opposite is true and those refusing to even consider that the Mercedes qualifying advantage had a significant impact upon the year are themselves trying to lay a foundation for claiming that Hamilton somehow pulled off a title against the odds, in an inferior car.

Nah you're track record here is obvious Zoue. You've been preparing this defense since before the season even started. It's interesting how the pace of the car is OBVIOUSLY not what cost Ferrari the championship and now, all of a sudden, after they've choked away any likelihood of winning with spotty reliability and errors, now it's all about the car? Now all of a sudden the car's too slow? It's ridiculous what you and a couple of others are doing in here since the last race. It doesn't change anything; your attempt to control the narrative here.

You claim qualifying has been the deciding factor? Well in the 3 races where Vettel started on pole, he only won once! 3 of his 4 wins were NOT from pole. What's more, he obviously was alive and well in the championship heading into the Singapore GP and things came totally unglued from that point on. Did they come unglued because the Mercedes was better in qualifying? No! Did they come unglued because the Mercedes was better in the race? No! Things fell apart because both Ferrari drivers crashed out on the opening lap and then the team struggled with mechanical failures in the next two rounds.

Reliability has let them down of late but performance has not. For every race where Mercedes were quicker, there is a race where Ferrari were quicker and they also were the much easier car to set up and get into the performance window. They were quick everywhere while Mercedes were, at times, even behind Red Bull. The list goes on and on and yet I don't claim that Ferrari had an advantage. I think the cars had their own relative strengths and weaknesses. The point though is that they were closely matched and to claim otherwise is ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:10 am 
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pendulumeffect wrote:
Mercedes will continue to dominate until the engine psu regulations are simplified to make the sport cheaper. Mercedes have the most resources and best engine designers. Only someone like Porsche or Audi could compete.


That's my belief to, sadly. They've nailed the PU and are outengineering the rest and wins the development race probably until 2020.

If it's good for the show or not we will see.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:17 am 
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The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:31 am 
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Zoue wrote:

Luck does play a part of course and until the last few races Vettel was right in with a shout. He was quick enough that had Mercedes dropped the ball he had a chance at winning it by picking up the pieces. But Mercedes, and Hamilton, have not shown anything obvious in the way of weakness and therefore the advantage they do hold becomes much more significant. Every race Lewis has won has been from pole, apart from Singapore where all his rivals took themselves out, which goes to show how important the pole advantage has been, especially when the drivers contesting the title have been so closely matched


I do think that's an important point. They've been quite impervious in the grand scheme of things and Mercedes have kept cool and stable since the break whereas Ferrari have let things slip and I wonder if some of that is down to just how uptight and almost secretive Ferrari can be with their operations. It just seems like a tremendously stressful environment? That isn't always a bad thing and sometimes it can lead to thriving, perfectionistic and dominant situations but it feels to me like the Mercedes team have handled the tempo and pressures of the season better than Ferrari. From a psychological perspective, Ferrari being the chasing team despite leading the WDC for much of the season might have caused them to take more risks and it's now biting them? With Mercedes being dominant for so long, it's up to another team (Ferrari here) to chase them and chase them hard.

Hamilton certainly deserves to be commended on that front - although he has had some ups and downs in the first half of the season generally he's pretty much maximised the potential of the car.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:03 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
None of those teams were dominant for 4 years. Red Bull were only really dominant for half a season, Ferrari in 02 and Mercedes 2014-2016. Merc's domination in that time is pretty much unprecedented.

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:12 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

I too have been suprised that the FIA did pretty much nothing to stop the genuine Merc. dominance from '14 to '16 - when they successfully did their best to slow down other dominant teams.

Edit - to look on the bright side, Merc. haven't been "dominant" this season, hence the endless arguments about whether Merc. or Ferrari has been the better car throughout the season.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:26 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Thank you for writing the bolded part. That let's me know not to waste any more time with you.

The underlying message is too discredit Hamilton's title if he goes on to win the WDC.

I'd say the opposite is true and those refusing to even consider that the Mercedes qualifying advantage had a significant impact upon the year are themselves trying to lay a foundation for claiming that Hamilton somehow pulled off a title against the odds, in an inferior car.

Nah you're track record here is obvious Zoue. You've been preparing this defense since before the season even started. It's interesting how the pace of the car is OBVIOUSLY not what cost Ferrari the championship and now, all of a sudden, after they've choked away any likelihood of winning with spotty reliability and errors, now it's all about the car? Now all of a sudden the car's too slow? It's ridiculous what you and a couple of others are doing in here since the last race. It doesn't change anything; your attempt to control the narrative here.

You claim qualifying has been the deciding factor? Well in the 3 races where Vettel started on pole, he only won once! 3 of his 4 wins were NOT from pole. What's more, he obviously was alive and well in the championship heading into the Singapore GP and things came totally unglued from that point on. Did they come unglued because the Mercedes was better in qualifying? No! Did they come unglued because the Mercedes was better in the race? No! Things fell apart because both Ferrari drivers crashed out on the opening lap and then the team struggled with mechanical failures in the next two rounds.

Reliability has let them down of late but performance has not. For every race where Mercedes were quicker, there is a race where Ferrari were quicker and they also were the much easier car to set up and get into the performance window. They were quick everywhere while Mercedes were, at times, even behind Red Bull. The list goes on and on and yet I don't claim that Ferrari had an advantage. I think the cars had their own relative strengths and weaknesses. The point though is that they were closely matched and to claim otherwise is ridiculous.

Your personal attacks are getting a little tiring, not to mention somewhat misplaced.

It does help if you do a little research before having a go. I've not said it's now all about the car, but I've maintained that the qualifying advantage has helped Mercedes for several months now, long before these latest mishaps for Ferrari. Which puts your "now (it's all about the car)" in perspective.

I've written in other posts that even with their qualifying advantage it still takes a special driver to capitalise on it fully, which appears to have gone over your head. In your haste to insult everyone who dares have a different opinion to you you seem unable to look at things objectively, it seems. Or, indeed, dispassionately.

It's OK to have a different opinion, as difficult a concept as that seems for you to grasp. Shouting down and insulting everyone who disagrees with you doesn't strengthen your argument: in fact, it diminishes it. You need to calm down a bit and not get so precious over how everyone feels about your favourite driver (and yes, I'm well aware that you claim to not be a Hamilton fan, but I don't believe you. Your posting history strongly indicates otherwise).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:27 am 
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Ye I did notice that glowing praise of Hamilton in that you referred to him as special and was wondering if it would be picked up on.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:31 am 
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Invade wrote:
Zoue wrote:

Luck does play a part of course and until the last few races Vettel was right in with a shout. He was quick enough that had Mercedes dropped the ball he had a chance at winning it by picking up the pieces. But Mercedes, and Hamilton, have not shown anything obvious in the way of weakness and therefore the advantage they do hold becomes much more significant. Every race Lewis has won has been from pole, apart from Singapore where all his rivals took themselves out, which goes to show how important the pole advantage has been, especially when the drivers contesting the title have been so closely matched


I do think that's an important point. They've been quite impervious in the grand scheme of things and Mercedes have kept cool and stable since the break whereas Ferrari have let things slip and I wonder if some of that is down to just how uptight and almost secretive Ferrari can be with their operations. It just seems like a tremendously stressful environment? That isn't always a bad thing and sometimes it can lead to thriving, perfectionistic and dominant situations but it feels to me like the Mercedes team have handled the tempo and pressures of the season better than Ferrari. From a psychological perspective, Ferrari being the chasing team despite leading the WDC for much of the season might have caused them to take more risks and it's now biting them? With Mercedes being dominant for so long, it's up to another team (Ferrari here) to chase them and chase them hard.

Hamilton certainly deserves to be commended on that front - although he has had some ups and downs in the first half of the season generally he's pretty much maximised the potential of the car.

It's possible, of course, but I think there's also a danger that people may look to hard for answers to things that may not even be there. Last year, Hamilton's title charge was derailed by reliability issues, but because he was in the same car as Rosberg no-one thought heads must role at Mercedes or that they were trying too hard on his behalf. Sometimes Lady Luck plays her part and Ferrari's latest issues could simply be down to a roll of her dice. I mean, a faulty spark plug could happen to anyone. It doesn't mean there's a fundamental problem within the organisation. Before the last couple of races Ferrari looked reasonably bullet proof, IIRC


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:33 am 
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Invade wrote:
Ye I did notice that glowing praise of Hamilton in that you referred to him as special and was wondering if it would be picked up on.

Clearly not, it seems!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:35 am 
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Zoue wrote:
It's possible, of course, but I think there's also a danger that people may look to hard for answers to things that may not even be there. Last year, Hamilton's title charge was derailed by reliability issues, but because he was in the same car as Rosberg no-one thought heads must role at Mercedes or that they were trying too hard on his behalf. Sometimes Lady Luck plays her part and Ferrari's latest issues could simply be down to a roll of her dice. I mean, a faulty spark plug could happen to anyone. It doesn't mean there's a fundamental problem within the organisation. Before the last couple of races Ferrari looked reasonably bullet proof, IIRC


Yep, it could be a series of freak incidents which is largely down to luck, but it has been both Seb and Kimi who have been affected. Maybe Kimi's problems were already of his own doing - I already don't remember. I also wonder if it's not a problem as such in operations but simply playing the odds slightly more dicily, which is perfectly reasonable and can and does often pay off but on this occasion did not. Ferrari certainly have had excellent reliability and consistency of performance (at least from their best driver) up until recently.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:27 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

I too have been suprised that the FIA did pretty much nothing to stop the genuine Merc. dominance from '14 to '16 - when they successfully did their best to slow down other dominant teams.

Edit - to look on the bright side, Merc. haven't been "dominant" this season, hence the endless arguments about whether Merc. or Ferrari has been the better car throughout the season.

I would argue rewriting the regulations only 3 seasons after the last major regulation change was an attempt to do that.

Bear in mind the stupid 2014 engine regulations were largely responsible for locking in Mercedes dominance in the first place.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:12 am 
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LKS1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

I too have been suprised that the FIA did pretty much nothing to stop the genuine Merc. dominance from '14 to '16 - when they successfully did their best to slow down other dominant teams.

Edit - to look on the bright side, Merc. haven't been "dominant" this season, hence the endless arguments about whether Merc. or Ferrari has been the better car throughout the season.


They've been pretty much throwing everything they can at trying to get the pack to catch Merc!. New regs, opening up engine development etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:04 pm 
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LKS1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

I too have been suprised that the FIA did pretty much nothing to stop the genuine Merc. dominance from '14 to '16 - when they successfully did their best to slow down other dominant teams.

Edit - to look on the bright side, Merc. haven't been "dominant" this season, hence the endless arguments about whether Merc. or Ferrari has been the better car throughout the season.


The problem was identifying what was making them dominant. First we heard it was the FRIC so it was banned. Then we heard it was the split turbo, not illegal so not banned, then we heard it was oil burning so the FIA tested it in 2015 and found nothing(They were testing the wrong thing but that's another story).

Then we heard it was the HPC suspension and it was banned. Then we're back to oil burn and the FIA finally worked out what they were doing but it can't be banned until next year.

They did ban what they could but it was just hard to pinpoint anything to ban and when we finally found it was lean burn really that was making the difference no one wanted to ban it as it's important to develop and interesting to a lot of car makers.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'd say the opposite is true and those refusing to even consider that the Mercedes qualifying advantage had a significant impact upon the year are themselves trying to lay a foundation for claiming that Hamilton somehow pulled off a title against the odds, in an inferior car.

First of all I had to clear the quotes. :)

Secondly I've never said the Mercedes was inferior in fact generally speaking I've been quite neutral, I'm just responding to the thread itself that claims that Mercedes are dominant.

Yeah I think i just beat you to the quotes edit! 8)

Some, including the one you were responding to, have been quite vociferous in shouting down anyone who dares claim that Mercedes may have had an advantage. Some clearly take it personally.

I don't think anyone can claim Mercedes are dominant, not in the usually accepted sense of the word. For me it's clear they have been slightly better though, particularly in qualifying, but Bottas has shown that it still needed a special driver to take advantage of that.

I wouldn't disagree that the Mercedes has been the better qualifying car but actual speed in the races that's up for debate which I've known you've debated with others, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's been Ferrari although I've not looked at it that closely but obviously track position is important also.

It was a 50/50 fight until Ferrari dropped the ball these past 2 races and you know I've given some responsibility to Vettel in Malaysia, 2 of these races Mercedes only had the third fastest car and Vettel should have won both races.

Vettel for me messed up in Baku and fought the wrong battle in Malaysia, Hamilton has chosen not to engage with Verstappen, so although Vettel has had more bad luck that doesn't account for 59 points, some of that is down to Vettel as well.

So in respect to the thread a dominant car doesn't get involved in a close to 50/50 fight unless you are saying the drivers are vastly inferior.

Yes, I'd agree that you can't really call the Mercedes dominant on race pace. Qualifying is another matter, however. There I believe it truly is. And in threads that talk about relative car performance, or dominance, I don't think that can be ignored, which some on here seem almost desperate to do. Not talking about you, here.

Luck does play a part of course and until the last few races Vettel was right in with a shout. He was quick enough that had Mercedes dropped the ball he had a chance at winning it by picking up the pieces. But Mercedes, and Hamilton, have not shown anything obvious in the way of weakness and therefore the advantage they do hold becomes much more significant. Every race Lewis has won has been from pole, apart from Singapore where all his rivals took themselves out, which goes to show how important the pole advantage has been, especially when the drivers contesting the title have been so closely matched

All that being said if Vettel doesn't crash in Singapore and doesn't have engine problems both in Malaysia and Japan then he's leading the WDC, this belies arguments about Mercedes being the faster car or better car in normal conditions.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
First of all I had to clear the quotes. :)

Secondly I've never said the Mercedes was inferior in fact generally speaking I've been quite neutral, I'm just responding to the thread itself that claims that Mercedes are dominant.

Yeah I think i just beat you to the quotes edit! 8)

Some, including the one you were responding to, have been quite vociferous in shouting down anyone who dares claim that Mercedes may have had an advantage. Some clearly take it personally.

I don't think anyone can claim Mercedes are dominant, not in the usually accepted sense of the word. For me it's clear they have been slightly better though, particularly in qualifying, but Bottas has shown that it still needed a special driver to take advantage of that.

I wouldn't disagree that the Mercedes has been the better qualifying car but actual speed in the races that's up for debate which I've known you've debated with others, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's been Ferrari although I've not looked at it that closely but obviously track position is important also.

It was a 50/50 fight until Ferrari dropped the ball these past 2 races and you know I've given some responsibility to Vettel in Malaysia, 2 of these races Mercedes only had the third fastest car and Vettel should have won both races.

Vettel for me messed up in Baku and fought the wrong battle in Malaysia, Hamilton has chosen not to engage with Verstappen, so although Vettel has had more bad luck that doesn't account for 59 points, some of that is down to Vettel as well.

So in respect to the thread a dominant car doesn't get involved in a close to 50/50 fight unless you are saying the drivers are vastly inferior.

Yes, I'd agree that you can't really call the Mercedes dominant on race pace. Qualifying is another matter, however. There I believe it truly is. And in threads that talk about relative car performance, or dominance, I don't think that can be ignored, which some on here seem almost desperate to do. Not talking about you, here.

Luck does play a part of course and until the last few races Vettel was right in with a shout. He was quick enough that had Mercedes dropped the ball he had a chance at winning it by picking up the pieces. But Mercedes, and Hamilton, have not shown anything obvious in the way of weakness and therefore the advantage they do hold becomes much more significant. Every race Lewis has won has been from pole, apart from Singapore where all his rivals took themselves out, which goes to show how important the pole advantage has been, especially when the drivers contesting the title have been so closely matched

All that being said if Vettel doesn't crash in Singapore and doesn't have engine problems both in Malaysia and Japan then he's leading the WDC, this belies arguments about Mercedes being the faster car or better car in normal conditions.

Yes, but as has been pointed out previously, if you imagine a perfect season for Vettel then you have to do the same for Hamilton, in which case he'd still be leading the Championship now.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:19 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

They got rid of Mercedes' suspension before the season even started, and they've restricted the oil burn of the engines, anything else you are asking for is basically changing the rules that are supposed to last until 2020.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Domination ended in Australia 2017.

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Last edited by F1_Ernie on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:23 pm 
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As many have pointed out already, I am not sure whether you can call this years Mercedes package 'dominant'. I think in years previous, they have had the pace to mask any of this set-up/tyre management problem that has become evident this year as Ferrari and RBR have become increasingly competitive, bar Singapore in years previous.

In qualifying, Mercedes I believe still have that raw-horsepower advantage over the Ferrari and certainly the Red Bull. However, that advantage is nullified on high-down force tracks.

I think this coming off-season is personally, going to be one of the most exciting in recent years. We have a resurgent Red Bull that have developed 1-1.5 seconds over the course of this season so far in aero alone (according to C.Horner on SkyF1 this past weekend in Japan). If Renault can deliver a "qualy" mode for next year along with some additional race-pace, the Bulls will be highly-competitive, if not the class of the field. McLaren also have to live up to the claims that there chassis is up there with the best. With the same package as the Bulls next year, they will essentially have a head-to-head comparison in chassis and aero package.
Ferrari will continue to develop strongly, this year is a solid foundation. They have a car that works straight out the box in all conditions, and is quick!

Mercedes is the unknown for me. There have been comments that Mercedes know the solutions to the problems, but they cant fix them until post-season/next years car. This leads me to believe that there is either an issue with one of there key flow structures, or the long-wheel base has not given them what they hoped for. They cant afford to have a dominant package at some circuits and not at others, it needs to be consistent and competitive. I would expect them to come to testing next year with a totally redesigned front, sidepod and rear aero package as well as ditching the long wheel base. This coupled with whatever upgrades they can give the engine over the winter may leave them class of the field again - but its all unknowns! I believe J.Allison will have a greater influence on next years car, and that may lead to greater understanding on there tyre management issues.

I cant source the article now I try to find it, but I remember reading that Mercedes were trimming out the down force on some of there package as it was further compounding there narrow tyre set-up window in Malaysia, which is why Lewis resorted to the older package, and what led to the comments post-race.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Ye I did notice that glowing praise of Hamilton in that you referred to him as special and was wondering if it would be picked up on.

Yes in part though it's very confusing. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

I too have been suprised that the FIA did pretty much nothing to stop the genuine Merc. dominance from '14 to '16 - when they successfully did their best to slow down other dominant teams.

Edit - to look on the bright side, Merc. haven't been "dominant" this season, hence the endless arguments about whether Merc. or Ferrari has been the better car throughout the season.


They've been pretty much throwing everything they can at trying to get the pack to catch Merc!. New regs, opening up engine development etc.

Banning the Mercedes suspension.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

They got rid of Mercedes' suspension before the season even started, and they've restricted the oil burn of the engines, anything else you are asking for is basically changing the rules that are supposed to last until 2020.


Didn’t the FIA get rid of the token system?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I wouldn't disagree that the Mercedes has been the better qualifying car but actual speed in the races that's up for debate which I've known you've debated with others, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's been Ferrari although I've not looked at it that closely but obviously track position is important also.

It was a 50/50 fight until Ferrari dropped the ball these past 2 races and you know I've given some responsibility to Vettel in Malaysia, 2 of these races Mercedes only had the third fastest car and Vettel should have won both races.

Vettel for me messed up in Baku and fought the wrong battle in Malaysia, Hamilton has chosen not to engage with Verstappen, so although Vettel has had more bad luck that doesn't account for 59 points, some of that is down to Vettel as well.

So in respect to the thread a dominant car doesn't get involved in a close to 50/50 fight unless you are saying the drivers are vastly inferior.

Yes, I'd agree that you can't really call the Mercedes dominant on race pace. Qualifying is another matter, however. There I believe it truly is. And in threads that talk about relative car performance, or dominance, I don't think that can be ignored, which some on here seem almost desperate to do. Not talking about you, here.

Luck does play a part of course and until the last few races Vettel was right in with a shout. He was quick enough that had Mercedes dropped the ball he had a chance at winning it by picking up the pieces. But Mercedes, and Hamilton, have not shown anything obvious in the way of weakness and therefore the advantage they do hold becomes much more significant. Every race Lewis has won has been from pole, apart from Singapore where all his rivals took themselves out, which goes to show how important the pole advantage has been, especially when the drivers contesting the title have been so closely matched

All that being said if Vettel doesn't crash in Singapore and doesn't have engine problems both in Malaysia and Japan then he's leading the WDC, this belies arguments about Mercedes being the faster car or better car in normal conditions.

Yes, but as has been pointed out previously, if you imagine a perfect season for Vettel then you have to do the same for Hamilton, in which case he'd still be leading the Championship now.

That seems to be something just plucked out of thin air which you can't possible know.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:33 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

They got rid of Mercedes' suspension before the season even started, and they've restricted the oil burn of the engines, anything else you are asking for is basically changing the rules that are supposed to last until 2020.


Didn’t the FIA get rid of the token system?

Yes Mikey also brought that up.

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