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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:46 pm 
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The dominance ended last year, it's a 2014-16 period for that level of performance advantage over their rivals.

This year is a close battle with both Ferrari and Mercedes able to say they've been the best at different times. Overall best is yet to be decided I feel. I think the Mercedes qualifying advantage is a crucial aspect on the tracks that neither had a healthy advantage on but so is the Ferrari's performance with it's tyres and size of their set up window.

First proper close battle we've had between two front running cars since the end of 2009 for me.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yes, I'd agree that you can't really call the Mercedes dominant on race pace. Qualifying is another matter, however. There I believe it truly is. And in threads that talk about relative car performance, or dominance, I don't think that can be ignored, which some on here seem almost desperate to do. Not talking about you, here.

Luck does play a part of course and until the last few races Vettel was right in with a shout. He was quick enough that had Mercedes dropped the ball he had a chance at winning it by picking up the pieces. But Mercedes, and Hamilton, have not shown anything obvious in the way of weakness and therefore the advantage they do hold becomes much more significant. Every race Lewis has won has been from pole, apart from Singapore where all his rivals took themselves out, which goes to show how important the pole advantage has been, especially when the drivers contesting the title have been so closely matched

All that being said if Vettel doesn't crash in Singapore and doesn't have engine problems both in Malaysia and Japan then he's leading the WDC, this belies arguments about Mercedes being the faster car or better car in normal conditions.

Yes, but as has been pointed out previously, if you imagine a perfect season for Vettel then you have to do the same for Hamilton, in which case he'd still be leading the Championship now.

That seems to be something just plucked out of thin air which you can't possible know.

Why? Baku's headrest spoiled an otherwise guaranteed win for Hamilton. And his gearbox penalty no doubt scuppered his chances for better points, too. Why do only Vettel's issues count?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

I too have been suprised that the FIA did pretty much nothing to stop the genuine Merc. dominance from '14 to '16 - when they successfully did their best to slow down other dominant teams.

Edit - to look on the bright side, Merc. haven't been "dominant" this season, hence the endless arguments about whether Merc. or Ferrari has been the better car throughout the season.


They've been pretty much throwing everything they can at trying to get the pack to catch Merc!. New regs, opening up engine development etc.

Banning the Mercedes suspension.

Or just enforce the rules already in place when Mercedes designed it?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yes, I'd agree that you can't really call the Mercedes dominant on race pace. Qualifying is another matter, however. There I believe it truly is. And in threads that talk about relative car performance, or dominance, I don't think that can be ignored, which some on here seem almost desperate to do. Not talking about you, here.

Luck does play a part of course and until the last few races Vettel was right in with a shout. He was quick enough that had Mercedes dropped the ball he had a chance at winning it by picking up the pieces. But Mercedes, and Hamilton, have not shown anything obvious in the way of weakness and therefore the advantage they do hold becomes much more significant. Every race Lewis has won has been from pole, apart from Singapore where all his rivals took themselves out, which goes to show how important the pole advantage has been, especially when the drivers contesting the title have been so closely matched

All that being said if Vettel doesn't crash in Singapore and doesn't have engine problems both in Malaysia and Japan then he's leading the WDC, this belies arguments about Mercedes being the faster car or better car in normal conditions.

Yes, but as has been pointed out previously, if you imagine a perfect season for Vettel then you have to do the same for Hamilton, in which case he'd still be leading the Championship now.

That seems to be something just plucked out of thin air which you can't possible know.

Why? Baku's headrest spoiled an otherwise guaranteed win for Hamilton. And his gearbox penalty no doubt scuppered his chances for better points, too. Why do only Vettel's issues count?

That's about 10 points lost to Vettel bear in mind Vettel doesn't get penalised, so he goes into Singapore with a 13 point lead, Vettel wins, Hamilton 5th, Vettel has a 2 point lead. Malaysia Vettel is on pole and he wins, Hamilton finishes 3rd so Vettel now 12 points in front. Japan Hamilton wins, Vettel second giving Vettel a 5 point lead.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
The FIA tried their absolute best to slow down Ferrari in the early 2000's and Red Bull in the early 2010's. They haven't really made much of an effort (surprisingly) to slow down the Mercedes engine in recent times. They could probably find something illegal in every car if they looked hard enough. If not illegal, at least "questionable".

I too have been suprised that the FIA did pretty much nothing to stop the genuine Merc. dominance from '14 to '16 - when they successfully did their best to slow down other dominant teams.

Edit - to look on the bright side, Merc. haven't been "dominant" this season, hence the endless arguments about whether Merc. or Ferrari has been the better car throughout the season.


They've been pretty much throwing everything they can at trying to get the pack to catch Merc!. New regs, opening up engine development etc.

Banning the Mercedes suspension.

Or just enforce the rules already in place when Mercedes designed it?

There was nothing wrong with the suspension until there had to be found a way to slow Mercedes down.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
LKS1 wrote:
I too have been suprised that the FIA did pretty much nothing to stop the genuine Merc. dominance from '14 to '16 - when they successfully did their best to slow down other dominant teams.

Edit - to look on the bright side, Merc. haven't been "dominant" this season, hence the endless arguments about whether Merc. or Ferrari has been the better car throughout the season.


They've been pretty much throwing everything they can at trying to get the pack to catch Merc!. New regs, opening up engine development etc.

Banning the Mercedes suspension.

Or just enforce the rules already in place when Mercedes designed it?

There was nothing wrong with the suspension until there had to be found a way to slow Mercedes down.


Depends. HPC(Last winter) was never technically banned but RB and Mercedes never ran it because the FIA threatened to force them to reveal it's workings if challenged by another team under the moveable aero part of the rules.

FRIC(2014) was outright banned because they felt it's legality could be called into question under a part of the moveable aero rule.

You can argue both were banned by just upholding Article 3.15 rather than changing rules as they go along I think.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:50 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
They've been pretty much throwing everything they can at trying to get the pack to catch Merc!. New regs, opening up engine development etc.

Banning the Mercedes suspension.

Or just enforce the rules already in place when Mercedes designed it?

There was nothing wrong with the suspension until there had to be found a way to slow Mercedes down.


Depends. HPC(Last winter) was never technically banned but RB and Mercedes never ran it because the FIA threatened to force them to reveal it's workings if challenged by another team under the moveable aero part of the rules.

FRIC(2014) was outright banned because they felt it's legality could be called into question under a part of the moveable aero rule.

You can argue both were banned by just upholding Article 3.15 rather than changing rules as they go along I think.

They simply found a way to ban it because Mercedes had a dominant car, no one cared when Mercedes were not winning.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Or you are simply finding conspiracies against Mercedes and Hamilton where there are none?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Banning the Mercedes suspension.

Or just enforce the rules already in place when Mercedes designed it?

There was nothing wrong with the suspension until there had to be found a way to slow Mercedes down.


Depends. HPC(Last winter) was never technically banned but RB and Mercedes never ran it because the FIA threatened to force them to reveal it's workings if challenged by another team under the moveable aero part of the rules.

FRIC(2014) was outright banned because they felt it's legality could be called into question under a part of the moveable aero rule.

You can argue both were banned by just upholding Article 3.15 rather than changing rules as they go along I think.

They simply found a way to ban it because Mercedes had a dominant car, no one cared when Mercedes were not winning.


But they didn't invent a new rule just to scupper Mercedes though which is what Covalent's point was I think.

You could argue, just like with the oil burn, it took the FIA too long to realise what the team(s) were specifically doing with FRIC and how it might contravene that rule.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Bingo.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
All that being said if Vettel doesn't crash in Singapore and doesn't have engine problems both in Malaysia and Japan then he's leading the WDC, this belies arguments about Mercedes being the faster car or better car in normal conditions.

Yes, but as has been pointed out previously, if you imagine a perfect season for Vettel then you have to do the same for Hamilton, in which case he'd still be leading the Championship now.

That seems to be something just plucked out of thin air which you can't possible know.

Why? Baku's headrest spoiled an otherwise guaranteed win for Hamilton. And his gearbox penalty no doubt scuppered his chances for better points, too. Why do only Vettel's issues count?

That's about 10 points lost to Vettel bear in mind Vettel doesn't get penalised, so he goes into Singapore with a 13 point lead, Vettel wins, Hamilton 5th, Vettel has a 2 point lead. Malaysia Vettel is on pole and he wins, Hamilton finishes 3rd so Vettel now 12 points in front. Japan Hamilton wins, Vettel second giving Vettel a 5 point lead.

If you're imagining perfect seasons there's more than those races, though. Russia? Austria? Bahrain? Bottas qualified 3rd at Monaco, so Hamilton should have done at least that, etc etc.

In any perfect scores scenario Hamilton comes out on top


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:59 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Or you are simply finding conspiracies against Mercedes and Hamilton where there are none?

No this is the way that F1 has always worked, I'm actually replying to posts asking for the FIA to slow Mercedes down because that's been done in the past.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Yes, but as has been pointed out previously, if you imagine a perfect season for Vettel then you have to do the same for Hamilton, in which case he'd still be leading the Championship now.

That seems to be something just plucked out of thin air which you can't possible know.

Why? Baku's headrest spoiled an otherwise guaranteed win for Hamilton. And his gearbox penalty no doubt scuppered his chances for better points, too. Why do only Vettel's issues count?

That's about 10 points lost to Vettel bear in mind Vettel doesn't get penalised, so he goes into Singapore with a 13 point lead, Vettel wins, Hamilton 5th, Vettel has a 2 point lead. Malaysia Vettel is on pole and he wins, Hamilton finishes 3rd so Vettel now 12 points in front. Japan Hamilton wins, Vettel second giving Vettel a 5 point lead.

If you're imagining perfect seasons there's more than those races, though. Russia? Austria? Bahrain? Bottas qualified 3rd at Monaco, so Hamilton should have done at least that, etc etc.

In any perfect scores scenario Hamilton comes out on top

Right I see, and you are comparing Vettel's performances with Kimi who has 44 points less than Ricciardo.

Hamilton finished in front of Bottas in Bahrain.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Or you are simply finding conspiracies against Mercedes and Hamilton where there are none?

No this is the way that F1 has always worked, I'm actually replying to posts asking for the FIA to slow Mercedes down because that's been done in the past.

Ok you should stop presenting stuff you've just come up with as facts.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That seems to be something just plucked out of thin air which you can't possible know.

Why? Baku's headrest spoiled an otherwise guaranteed win for Hamilton. And his gearbox penalty no doubt scuppered his chances for better points, too. Why do only Vettel's issues count?

That's about 10 points lost to Vettel bear in mind Vettel doesn't get penalised, so he goes into Singapore with a 13 point lead, Vettel wins, Hamilton 5th, Vettel has a 2 point lead. Malaysia Vettel is on pole and he wins, Hamilton finishes 3rd so Vettel now 12 points in front. Japan Hamilton wins, Vettel second giving Vettel a 5 point lead.

If you're imagining perfect seasons there's more than those races, though. Russia? Austria? Bahrain? Bottas qualified 3rd at Monaco, so Hamilton should have done at least that, etc etc.

In any perfect scores scenario Hamilton comes out on top

Right I see, and you are comparing Vettel's performances with Kimi who has 44 points less than Ricciardo.

Hamilton finished in front of Bottas in Bahrain.

Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:45 am 
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Vettel hasn't crushed Kimi by a much larger margin any more. That was the case earlier in the year, but Kimi has got stronger and Bottas weaker since the early year.

Hamilton is 72 points clear of Bottas and has had 1 less DNFs.
Vettel is 99 points clear of Kimi and has had 2 less DNFs.

Vettel leads Kimi 10-5 in qualifying
Hamilton leads Bottas 11-5 in qualifying

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If you're imagining perfect seasons there's more than those races, though. Russia? Austria? Bahrain? Bottas qualified 3rd at Monaco, so Hamilton should have done at least that, etc etc.

In any perfect scores scenario Hamilton comes out on top

Right I see, and you are comparing Vettel's performances with Kimi who has 44 points less than Ricciardo.

Hamilton finished in front of Bottas in Bahrain.

Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.

Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If you're imagining perfect seasons there's more than those races, though. Russia? Austria? Bahrain? Bottas qualified 3rd at Monaco, so Hamilton should have done at least that, etc etc.

In any perfect scores scenario Hamilton comes out on top

Right I see, and you are comparing Vettel's performances with Kimi who has 44 points less than Ricciardo.

Hamilton finished in front of Bottas in Bahrain.

Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.

Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.

Depends. If I answer this are you just going to chuck out more insults?

I wasn't the one who brought Kimi into the equation, which if you'd read the exchange above you would realise. Why aren't you asking that question of pokerman instead of me? I was just replying to him

Same for the level of scrutiny. It's interesting that you aren't directing these questions at pokerman when he gives clearly one-sided examples for Vettel's issues but conveniently leaves out Hamilton's. Why isn't that eliciting the same levels of umbrage from you?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:09 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.


Is this from the same poster who claimed "Hamilton has not made a substantial error in any race this year " as a scrutiny?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:16 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.


Is this from the same poster who claimed "Hamilton has not made a substantial error in any race this year " as a scrutiny?


Depends on how you define substantial I guess. Hamilton has not made any mistake that ended his race or caused him to lose a win, with Bahrain being the only exception.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:03 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
AnRs wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.


Is this from the same poster who claimed "Hamilton has not made a substantial error in any race this year " as a scrutiny?


Depends on how you define substantial I guess. Hamilton has not made any mistake that ended his race or caused him to lose a win, with Bahrain being the only exception.

What mistake did he make in Bahrain that cost him a win?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:05 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If you're imagining perfect seasons there's more than those races, though. Russia? Austria? Bahrain? Bottas qualified 3rd at Monaco, so Hamilton should have done at least that, etc etc.

In any perfect scores scenario Hamilton comes out on top

Right I see, and you are comparing Vettel's performances with Kimi who has 44 points less than Ricciardo.

Hamilton finished in front of Bottas in Bahrain.

Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.

Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.

Depends. If I answer this are you just going to chuck out more insults?

I wasn't the one who brought Kimi into the equation, which if you'd read the exchange above you would realise. Why aren't you asking that question of pokerman instead of me? I was just replying to him

Same for the level of scrutiny. It's interesting that you aren't directing these questions at pokerman when he gives clearly one-sided examples for Vettel's issues but conveniently leaves out Hamilton's. Why isn't that eliciting the same levels of umbrage from you?

Simply put, he doesn't do what you do. I have taken him to task in the past on certain things but he doesn't intentionally misrepresent what actually happens out there the way you do.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:27 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Right I see, and you are comparing Vettel's performances with Kimi who has 44 points less than Ricciardo.

Hamilton finished in front of Bottas in Bahrain.

Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.

Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.

Depends. If I answer this are you just going to chuck out more insults?

I wasn't the one who brought Kimi into the equation, which if you'd read the exchange above you would realise. Why aren't you asking that question of pokerman instead of me? I was just replying to him

Same for the level of scrutiny. It's interesting that you aren't directing these questions at pokerman when he gives clearly one-sided examples for Vettel's issues but conveniently leaves out Hamilton's. Why isn't that eliciting the same levels of umbrage from you?

Simply put, he doesn't do what you do. I have taken him to task in the past on certain things but he doesn't intentionally misrepresent what actually happens out there the way you do.
So it seems like I was bang on the money about the insults. Imagine my surprise.

Oh, sandman, your continued insults are getting a little boring. It seems you are unable to discuss sensibly like an adult and your constant digs make you look like you've just got out of school. You really need to stop it. I get sometimes things may get heated but with you it's pretty much every single post, even with no build up. It's wearing

It's ironic that you have accused others on multiple occasions of their aggressive agenda but I've yet to meet anyone on here who's quite as aggressive as you. There's really no call for it and all you are doing is going out of your way to push people's buttons. We get that you get upset with anyone who doesn't view Hamilton the way you do, but you're just going to have to accept that people can have different views without that meaning they must have an "agenda." And even if they do, you really shouldn't take it so personally.

Always happy to discuss things properly with you or anybody and I've done my best to ignore your deliberately provocative posts, but if you are going to continue to just use this as a platform for personal attacks then I'm not interested.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:29 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:

What mistake did he make in Bahrain that cost him a win?


I'm guessing the blocking Ricciardo to get a 5 second penalty.

This was arguably smart thinking from Hamilton. His options were stack and end up a guaranteed 4th place and potentially behind Ricciardo for the rest of the race or until the next pit stop. Or hold him up and risk a 5 second penalty. Hamilton did fall behind Ricciardo anyway, but was able to get him immediately on the SC restart, if he didn't do it then he might not have been able to do it at all.

The same happened with Nico last year who pushed past both Max and Raikkonen and received 5 second penalties. Both of which were rendered irrelevant because he was able to pull a big enough gap to still remain ahead of both drivers in each case. So he works out better in both cases. He did however fall behind Max again though because Mercedes gave him an 8 second penalty in error.

I can't remember Hamilton going off road during a race, having a collision, crashing out in qualifying or even totalling the car in practise and losing track time - he did all of these at least once per season over the rest of his career. He has been very error free this year, definite improvement in this area. Even the silly things like reversing in the pit lane, not returning to the track behind a bollard he hasn't done this year either.

Vettel seasons reminds me very much of Hamilton 2007-2011, just little silly things costing him points and stupid rule breaks like missing the anthem, colliding after the race, running the tyres to destruction in Silverstone, taking risks at the start.. But these are the types of things that happen when you aren't in the outright best car. A slight luxury Hamilton has had this year against Vettel and one Vettel had 2010-2013 over the others.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:06 pm 
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Posts: 4279
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.

Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.

Depends. If I answer this are you just going to chuck out more insults?

I wasn't the one who brought Kimi into the equation, which if you'd read the exchange above you would realise. Why aren't you asking that question of pokerman instead of me? I was just replying to him

Same for the level of scrutiny. It's interesting that you aren't directing these questions at pokerman when he gives clearly one-sided examples for Vettel's issues but conveniently leaves out Hamilton's. Why isn't that eliciting the same levels of umbrage from you?

Simply put, he doesn't do what you do. I have taken him to task in the past on certain things but he doesn't intentionally misrepresent what actually happens out there the way you do.
So it seems like I was bang on the money about the insults. Imagine my surprise.

Oh, sandman, your continued insults are getting a little boring. It seems you are unable to discuss sensibly like an adult and your constant digs make you look like you've just got out of school. You really need to stop it. I get sometimes things may get heated but with you it's pretty much every single post, even with no build up. It's wearing

It's ironic that you have accused others on multiple occasions of their aggressive agenda but I've yet to meet anyone on here who's quite as aggressive as you. There's really no call for it and all you are doing is going out of your way to push people's buttons. We get that you get upset with anyone who doesn't view Hamilton the way you do, but you're just going to have to accept that people can have different views without that meaning they must have an "agenda." And even if they do, you really shouldn't take it so personally.

Always happy to discuss things properly with you or anybody and I've done my best to ignore your deliberately provocative posts, but if you are going to continue to just use this as a platform for personal attacks then I'm not interested.

Ah so now we've reached the dreaded stage where you play the victim. This is then is followed by you creating a false equivalence between your actions and mine and then just a bunch of emotional lashing out. Perhaps we can skip that final phase this time?

You don't seem to know what an insult is. I didn't insult you and I'm not being aggressive. Funny how you revert to playing the victim when you are called on the very obvious bias in your observations. No logical defense for that I suppose.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21004
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.

Depends. If I answer this are you just going to chuck out more insults?

I wasn't the one who brought Kimi into the equation, which if you'd read the exchange above you would realise. Why aren't you asking that question of pokerman instead of me? I was just replying to him

Same for the level of scrutiny. It's interesting that you aren't directing these questions at pokerman when he gives clearly one-sided examples for Vettel's issues but conveniently leaves out Hamilton's. Why isn't that eliciting the same levels of umbrage from you?

Simply put, he doesn't do what you do. I have taken him to task in the past on certain things but he doesn't intentionally misrepresent what actually happens out there the way you do.
So it seems like I was bang on the money about the insults. Imagine my surprise.

Oh, sandman, your continued insults are getting a little boring. It seems you are unable to discuss sensibly like an adult and your constant digs make you look like you've just got out of school. You really need to stop it. I get sometimes things may get heated but with you it's pretty much every single post, even with no build up. It's wearing

It's ironic that you have accused others on multiple occasions of their aggressive agenda but I've yet to meet anyone on here who's quite as aggressive as you. There's really no call for it and all you are doing is going out of your way to push people's buttons. We get that you get upset with anyone who doesn't view Hamilton the way you do, but you're just going to have to accept that people can have different views without that meaning they must have an "agenda." And even if they do, you really shouldn't take it so personally.

Always happy to discuss things properly with you or anybody and I've done my best to ignore your deliberately provocative posts, but if you are going to continue to just use this as a platform for personal attacks then I'm not interested.

Ah so now we've reached the dreaded stage where you play the victim. This is then is followed by you creating a false equivalence between your actions and mine and then just a bunch of emotional lashing out. Perhaps we can skip that final phase this time?

You don't seem to know what an insult is. I didn't insult you and I'm not being aggressive. Funny how you revert to playing the victim when you are called on the very obvious bias in your observations. No logical defense for that I suppose.

nope, I'm just asking you to tone down the aggression. I'm finding it quite hard to fathom that you don't see it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Lets keep it on the topic and not about each other


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:51 pm 
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Posts: 23906
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
If you're imagining perfect seasons there's more than those races, though. Russia? Austria? Bahrain? Bottas qualified 3rd at Monaco, so Hamilton should have done at least that, etc etc.

In any perfect scores scenario Hamilton comes out on top

Right I see, and you are comparing Vettel's performances with Kimi who has 44 points less than Ricciardo.

Hamilton finished in front of Bottas in Bahrain.

Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.

Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.

Depends. If I answer this are you just going to chuck out more insults?

I wasn't the one who brought Kimi into the equation, which if you'd read the exchange above you would realise. Why aren't you asking that question of pokerman instead of me? I was just replying to him

Same for the level of scrutiny. It's interesting that you aren't directing these questions at pokerman when he gives clearly one-sided examples for Vettel's issues but conveniently leaves out Hamilton's. Why isn't that eliciting the same levels of umbrage from you?

You was comparing Hamilton with Bottas to show that Hamilton left points on the table hence then the reference to Kimi.

Regarding Bottas if he gets beat easily again by Hamilton next season then I guarantee he's out the door, yet we have 3 years of Kimi and he still gets another contract.

So in respect what I'm saying is that it makes it easier for Vettel to look good when Ferrari are happy to employ an under performing teammate.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 21004
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Right I see, and you are comparing Vettel's performances with Kimi who has 44 points less than Ricciardo.

Hamilton finished in front of Bottas in Bahrain.

Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.

Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.

Depends. If I answer this are you just going to chuck out more insults?

I wasn't the one who brought Kimi into the equation, which if you'd read the exchange above you would realise. Why aren't you asking that question of pokerman instead of me? I was just replying to him

Same for the level of scrutiny. It's interesting that you aren't directing these questions at pokerman when he gives clearly one-sided examples for Vettel's issues but conveniently leaves out Hamilton's. Why isn't that eliciting the same levels of umbrage from you?

You was comparing Hamilton with Bottas to show that Hamilton left points on the table hence then the reference to Kimi.

Regarding Bottas if he gets beat easily again by Hamilton next season then I guarantee he's out the door, yet we have 3 years of Kimi and he still gets another contract.

So in respect what I'm saying is that it makes it easier for Vettel to look good when Ferrari are happy to employ an under performing teammate.

I'm not sure how you can guarantee that, unless your last name is Wolff (it would explain a few things!). :]

I agree that Kimi is past his prime and not cutting it. The only plausible reason I can think of is that Ferrari are waiting to see whether they can poach one of the Red Bull drivers next year and are just extending Kimi as a stop gap. I don't buy the "keeping Vettel happy" theory, as I doubt any team would willingly sacrifice their WCC chances, no matter how much they wanted to appease their star driver. If either Ricciardo or Verstappen isn't available and they extend Kimi again, however, I may have to eat my hat.

I suspect Bottas got another year for the same reason. Certainly he's been a disappointment after the summer break. Both Vettel and Hamilton have shown what a difference a truly top driver can make


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23906
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Don't think I've done any comparison with Kimi? But now that you mention it, Vettel has crushed his team mate by a much bigger margin.

Hamilton should have won Bahrain. First he was caught napping at the start, then he got penalised by the stewards for playing games in the pits. Nothing wrong with the car there and it was capable of the win

Before this derails into minutiae too much, the point I'm making is that if you imagine perfect scores for one driver to show how good the car is, then you have to do it for the other and take more than a small sample of races to do it from.

Again, you only go into this level of scrutiny with Hamilton. Why not point out how Vettel coughed up the lead at the first corner in Russia (a race where leading through the first corner would have meant certain victory). How about Vettel's on track incidents at Canada and Baku that took him out of podium positions (a likely win was lost in Baku). You harp on about Hamilton's performance in Bahrain as if finishing 2nd is a disaster but what about Vettel at Silverstone? That was a terrible weekend but we don't discuss that in here do we? What about his first lap in Singapore? This pattern of scrutinizing Hamilton's race weekends with a microscope while painting over Vettel's (larger) list of errors needs to be called out.

As for beating Raikkonen by a large margin; what does that prove really? Raikkonen has been a joke for the last several years and Ferrari's keeping him is even more of a joke.

Depends. If I answer this are you just going to chuck out more insults?

I wasn't the one who brought Kimi into the equation, which if you'd read the exchange above you would realise. Why aren't you asking that question of pokerman instead of me? I was just replying to him

Same for the level of scrutiny. It's interesting that you aren't directing these questions at pokerman when he gives clearly one-sided examples for Vettel's issues but conveniently leaves out Hamilton's. Why isn't that eliciting the same levels of umbrage from you?

You was comparing Hamilton with Bottas to show that Hamilton left points on the table hence then the reference to Kimi.

Regarding Bottas if he gets beat easily again by Hamilton next season then I guarantee he's out the door, yet we have 3 years of Kimi and he still gets another contract.

So in respect what I'm saying is that it makes it easier for Vettel to look good when Ferrari are happy to employ an under performing teammate.

I'm not sure how you can guarantee that, unless your last name is Wolff (it would explain a few things!). :]

I agree that Kimi is past his prime and not cutting it. The only plausible reason I can think of is that Ferrari are waiting to see whether they can poach one of the Red Bull drivers next year and are just extending Kimi as a stop gap. I don't buy the "keeping Vettel happy" theory, as I doubt any team would willingly sacrifice their WCC chances, no matter how much they wanted to appease their star driver. If either Ricciardo or Verstappen isn't available and they extend Kimi again, however, I may have to eat my hat.

I suspect Bottas got another year for the same reason. Certainly he's been a disappointment after the summer break. Both Vettel and Hamilton have shown what a difference a truly top driver can make

Indeed and further more I would say that Mercedes would not have employed an under performing driver for 4 years.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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